Well, as you know, we're going to be studying tosons, toson neutrons, five positions, and commonly called five ranks, but ranks is really not a very good description. If you can't hear me, you can always look forward to it. There's plenty of room at this table. So, there are several reasons for studying the Five Ranks.

[01:19]

One very obvious reason is because the Five Ranks is the heart of the Jewel Mirror Samadhi. Although, if you don't know that, then you miss it. That's why I want to bring it to your attention. This is Tozan Ryokan's, one of his most obvious teachings. And this five, I want to get away from calling it the five ranks, but it's hard to do that because that was the translation that was given to it many years ago and it seems to stick. But I think I'll call it the five positions. And if I call it the five ranks again, Somebody beat their horn. So the Five Ranks was once a very popular... The Five Positions was once a very prominent teaching in the Soto school, but because of its tendency toward intellectuality and its tendency toward

[02:42]

You know, the I Ching, divination, has a tendency toward divination because a foson uses the symbolism of the I Ching to describe divine positions. So it got kind of what was called entangled, and they stopped using it. But the Rinzai tradition took it over, especially with Hakuin. And Hakuin thought it was the highest teaching available, and he really promoted it. And today it's one of the final teachings of the Koan system in Rinzai, system of Koan studies. So Five Ranks is considered everything from the most important teaching device to something for beginners.

[04:19]

So there's this whole range of the way people think about it, have thought about it in the past. But I think it's important for us to touch it, and see what these five ranks is about. See what the five positions are about. Now, I have some Xerox material for you. There's not a lot of material on the five ranks, but... Give up. Well, there are three different commentaries here, and I'll pass them out.

[05:19]

And if you already have the books that these came out of, then don't take one. Okay? Because I can use them someplace else. Are the books different from what you have? This one is from Zen Dust, which you don't have. It has been out of print too long. I'm afraid I have a copy. I bet no more than one or two people have a copy of Zen Dust. This is from Zen Training by Sakida. It's possible that you might have that. It's in print. Well, it's different colors depending on the printing. Yes, it has a brown cover. Brown dust jacket. With a triangle on it.

[06:23]

And this is from Chan and Zen Teaching by Charles Luck, second series. Cicada, any more?

[08:34]

Don't let them linger. If you have a pile of... It must be... I know, I made 30 copies. I guess I made 30 copies of each. It says Takeda at the bottom of the page in the handwritings. Yeah, the bunch. That's what we want. The bunch. So the one that we want to study tonight is this one.

[09:59]

The one with all the symbols. Charles Luck. This is an old book. an old Zen book, actually. Back there in the 50s, in the 60s, we didn't have much to read, but Charles Luck was a Chinese scholar who did a lot of translating about Zen and a lot of commentary. A lot of his commentary wasn't that good, but, matter of fact, one time he was putting out a book on lineage. He put out Rinzai lineage, and the next year he was going to put up the Soto lineage. And Karl Bielfeld wrote him a letter, a devastating letter, because it was kind of redundant stuff.

[11:04]

And a little while after that he died. I don't know if there was any connection to that. He left us a lot of nice things. This was Xeroxed. I meant to have the first page Xeroxed, and then the Xeroxer Xeroxed an extra page, which is the second page. So, we don't need that. What I want you to do, actually, is turn to the next to last page. The next to last page It has the same symbols, but it's a little different than the first page. And it has more symbols on it.

[12:06]

You've got that page that says 151. Page 151. And down at the bottom it has the cow with the funny eyes and the tongue hanging out at the bottom. For years, I could never figure this out. And I studied and studied and studied. Finally, I figured it out. And now I'm going to present it to you. Well, Charles, you see, these symbols are the footnote to the part in the Hokyo Zamae where it says, The six lines of the Qingli hexagram, representing the intermutable real and seeming, are interlaid to establish a triple basis, which transforms into five positions. They taste like five-flavored herbs and look like a thunderbolt.

[13:09]

You have this page. If you turn to page 151, I start on page 150, reading the Halkyo Zamae. You got 151? The poetry over here is the Hokyo Zanai, which is called the Jewel Ur Samadhi in English. It starts over here. But I'm not reading the whole thing. I'm just reading the part where it talks about this. So, what I was reading was the third line up, For the bottom, it says the six lines. I'm just orienting us into this, right? I'm orienting us into what the diagrams are about.

[14:11]

So the third for the bottom line says, this is a different translation than the one that we do. So you have to make a little adjustment. The six lines of the Chung-Li hexagram, representing the intermutable real and seeming, are interlaid to establish a triple basis, which transforms into five positions. They taste like five-flavored herbs and look like a thunderbolt. That's the translation of, It is like the six lines of a double-split hexagram. The relative and absolute integrate. Piled up, they make three. The complete transformation makes five. It is like the taste of the five-flavored herb, like the diamond thunderbolt. You're familiar with that, right? So that's what this is about. It's about these lines, which are the central part of the dual mirror of samadhi. But this is the heart of the dual mirror of samadhi.

[15:14]

What? So Tozang, Master Tozang, seems to have developed this from the merging of difference and unity, the Sandokai. You know, just the title of the Sandokai, the merging of difference and unity, is a clue to the Five Ranks. and you'll find, clue to the five positions, and you'll find, if you read it carefully, references, of course going the other way, because you can see where Tozan kind of gleaned his material, but not just from there, but

[16:20]

You can see how the Sando Kai figures in influencing the Hokyo Zanmai and the Five Ranks. So I want tonight to explain this symbolism that Tozan used, which was later developed by his student, Sozan, Sozon doesn't figure in our lineage. Ungodoyo comes after Tozon. So Tozon had quite a number of disciples, and the one who carried on the name of the school was actually Ungodoyo, whose name we chant, who was not interested in the five ranks at all, and didn't, excuse me, in the five positions at all. didn't teach it.

[17:36]

It just wasn't his dish of tea. And Dogen didn't teach it either, although we find the five positions. We find them integral in Dogen's writing, but not explicit. And Charles Luck lays the symbolism out for us very nicely, whereas the other commentators don't do that. So I want to explain what the symbolism is here. If you look at page 151, The last three lines of this particular section, about the five ranks, is at the top of the page.

[18:37]

But I'll read you the first three lines, too. The six lines of the Chung-Li hexagram, representing the intermutable, real, and seeming, are interlaid to establish a triple basis, which transforms into five positions. They taste like five-flavored herbs and look like a thunderbolt. Is there anyone here who's not familiar with these trigrams? Everybody by now knows this stuff, right? I don't mean you know it thoroughly, but everybody's heard of the I Ching. Well, the I Ching is the book of divination, the Chinese book of divination. That's where these come from. And the Zen people sometimes used I Ching symbolism to express, and Tozan did.

[19:43]

So he used this way of expressing himself through the I Ching. And so in the first, on top of the page in the first footnote, he says, the master, that's Tozan, use trigrams from the I Ching system to explain the real and the seeming. The real and the seeming is like, there are many names for real and seeming. The real is like the absolute, the infinite, the one, God, sameness, emptiness, wisdom, prajna, the universal, these are all names for the real. And the seeming is the phenomenal side. Relative, finite, many, the world, light, difference, form and matter, love, and the particular.

[20:48]

I'm not going to give you the Chinese names for these positions until later because it would make them more confusing. As we know, if we study the Hokyo Zanmai, the dark means the absolute and the light means the relative. But the Sando Kai is the merging of sameness and unity, right? Yeah, but when we talk about the Sando Kai, the Sando Kai uses those references, that the dark makes all things one, and in the light everything is revealed. So the dark is the absolute, which is the opposite of the way you usually think about it. You usually think about the light as being the infinite, and the dark as being the devil. But in Buddhism, or in Zen, it's the opposite.

[21:53]

The dark means unity or sameness. And the dual mirror is actually dark because it has nothing to say. As soon as you turn the light on something, then you have all these people. If you turn the light out, you don't see anybody, right? So that means no distinction. Everything is the same. As soon as you turn the light on, you see everything distinctly. All these people sitting here with red tablecloths and so forth. Papers, hair, sun. And that's the relative world. So dark means the absolute and light means the relative. And in the Hokyo Zamae it says the same thing. The Master used trigrams from the I Ching system to explain the real and the seeming.

[23:02]

Seeming is his way of expressing himself in English, but it's okay to say that. Seeming means things are not what they seem to be. It means the ephemeral. Everything seems to be real and substantial, but it's not. Yet, I mean, that's the seeming part. Everything seems to exist on its own, but it only exists in relation to everything else. So this is the seeming. Things seem to exist in a certain way, but they actually exist in a different way than they seem. Actually, they don't have any real substantial existence. That's why it's called the real and seeming. Although the real and seeming are not different.

[24:03]

They have the same root. The different leaves come from the same root, as it says. So the symbol Li, for the heart or mind, is a trigram consisting of two lines. two solid lines and a broken line in the middle. Now that trigram is not on this page. You won't find that trigram on this page, so it can be a little confusing. But two trigrams, two Lie trigrams look like that. You will find that on this page. That's the fifth hexagram. It's the hexagram at the bottom of the symbols. See that? But you won't find one by itself on this page. You won't find the Lee trigram on this page.

[25:08]

Everybody see this? So then he says, the symbol Lee for the heart or mind, you know, the character for heart is the same as for mind. So the Heart Sutra has this character. It also means the Mind Sutra, but we call it the Heart Sutra. So the symbol Li for the heart or mind is a trigram consisting of two single lines with a divided line between them, as I showed you. Two Li trigrams placed one upon another is called a Chung Li or Double Li hexagram. of which the six lines are interlaid to set up a triple basis, A, B, and C, transformable into five positions, one, two, three, four, and five, as follows.

[26:18]

And it shows you what is as follows. Now, you can see the, looking at the trigrams, at the itching diagrams, there are five of them laid out here, two trigrams and three hexagrams. Now, the one on the top, on the left, is called the Sun Trigram, right? And underneath that is the Tui Trigram. And then, the one below that is two of those put together, called the Tao Kuo Hexagram. Those two put together in a certain way, as you can see, is called the The one on the bottom, the trigram on the bottom is turned upside down. See that? And then the next one is called the Chung-Fu hexagram. And that is, those two trigrams are put together.

[27:20]

See that? Yes. Okay. I can't hear you. Yes. the top one and the one following it, they're both combinations of the top two. That's right. That's correct. Back-to-back. That's right. Then the one on the bottom is the Chung-Li or the double-Li hexagram, which is the central hexagram for this. This is the most important one because He uses it to illustrate the integration of the seeming and the real, the final most profound combination of the absolute and the relative position.

[28:25]

And these all have names. The Sun, the Sun Trigram is called, is the Wind Trigram of the I Ching. And the Thuy, the second one, Trigram, is called Damage, but somehow it seems to me, I would call it Disturbance. I'll tell you why I do that. And the Ta Kho, hexagram, the first hexagram is called Greatness, and the Chung-Fu, which is the next hexagram, is called Faith, and the Chung-Li, which is the doubly hexagram, is called Illumination. These are their names in the I Ching. Do you know what Fu by itself is? What is it? Fu? It looks like Chung means two. If you have nobody here, you have to really speak up.

[29:45]

Right. But it's turned upside down, right? So, yeah, it may not be the same exactly as those two. I think the point that they were making was that Ta Ku, the Hui is on top and the Sun is on the bottom. And Chang Ku, Sun is on the top and Hui is on the bottom. So they are made of the same dry branch, but they are placed one in reverse. So then we have the circles. And the circles, the first circle is called the reel containing the seaming.

[30:51]

And it's mostly black. Here it's somewhat even. emptiness, or expresses the real containing the seeming. Sometimes it's expressed as the seeming hidden underneath the real. In other words, not so revealed as the feeling of not... light is not revealed, so it's there, but it's not revealed. And the other one is like this, where the second one, the light is more revealed and the dark is not.

[32:14]

But one contains the other. You know, in the Ginja Koan, Dogen talks, he says, talking about the moonlight in the water, he says, when one side is revealed, the other side is in darkness. It's like the moon. As a matter of fact, this is like the moon, right? And this side of the moon, This phase of the moon is mostly dark and just a little bit of light. And this phase of the moon is mostly light and just a little bit of dark. But the whole moon is there. It's just that what is dominant is either the dark side or the light side. So this is also comparable to the Heart Sutra saying, form is emptiness and emptiness is form. So form is emptiness, and emptiness is form.

[33:34]

And then, now this is A. It is A. Those two together are A. If you look on the right, you see where it says Civ, Shift, Submission, and that? Never mind that. That refers to another explication of the five ranks by Tozan, which we're not going to take up. Five positions, which we're not going to take up. So we can just not deal with that. But if you look on the right of that, it says 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. And then, on the right, it says, host, guest, host coming to light, guest returning to host, and host and host. You know, at the end of the Hokyo Zamae, it says, the host within the host, right? And that symbolizes the host within the host. That's the end of the matter.

[34:37]

So then, on the right of that, it says, A, B, and C. That's the triple basis. A, B, and C is the triple basis. So here's B. This is the C. Yeah, the third one. Yeah, B is three. Well, I'm not saying the third one because we have five positions. I'm saying A, B, and C. On the triple basis are the five positions. So I'm not going to say this is three or you'll get mixed up. So this is called resurgence of the real. I'm not going to explain it right now, I'm just going to explain it. This is called the seeming uniting with the real. is C. A, the first two are A, the second is B, and the third is C. Now if you look down below at the thunderbolt, it's a vajra.

[36:00]

It's a funny picture of a vajra. I mean, you know. I would just do it this way. B is a kind of pivot. These two are complements. A and B are complements. And B is like the pivot.

[37:01]

And C are complements. And one reason why the word, excuse the term, ranks, is not so appropriate is because it looks like hierarchy. And it looks like progression. And there is a progressive way to talk about this, but each one of these positions is a way of talking about the whole thing from a different position. So it's about its philosophy, but it's the philosophy of the Absolute and the Relative, but it's also the philosophy or its... Talking about stages of practice, not just philosophy.

[38:06]

Talking about different states from which we practice. States may not be the right word either, but positions from which we do our practice. So, it's not just philosophy, it's about the real practice that we have. One of the problems is that it easily gets into just talking about philosophy. So, the first two ranks, I mean positions, this is one, two. Now, the thing about Let's just finish up here. Where it says 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. So this is, it transforms into five positions.

[39:21]

It has a threefold basis which transforms into five positions. Representing, let's use our own translation. It's like the six lines of a double-split hexagram, right? The relative and absolute integrate. So, the absolute and the relative, right? The black is the absolute, this is the relative. Piled up, they make three. One, two, three. The complete transformation makes five. That's the three and the five. It is like the taste of the five flavored herb. Now this herb is called the Hysop plant, which has five flavors, five subtle flavors.

[40:27]

And when you taste one flavor, it reminds you of the other four. This is Chinese taste. And it is like the diamond thunderbolt, in that it has this shape. So you can, you know, right? You can grab it in the middle. That's the pivot. Yeah. So, it's all. Yeah. According to one of the things you read, it said that Gilner's money is actually written after.

[41:30]

Yes. Some people say it was made after the five ranks. Positions. And some people say the five positions weren't really developing at that time. So much for history. Nobody knows. But a lot of people say. I don't care. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You know, this is what we're... The thing itself is what we're dealing with. Nobody knows whether, what came first. Unless you were there. Would they talk about the pivot? Would that pivot be the same as the term Kensho?

[42:33]

The pivot? The term Kensho? You really understand Kensho thing, aren't you? Yes, very strongly. Because that's a pivot. That's a pivot. relative and absolute, as an experience. And I was wondering if that would be still related to this directly. Yeah, this is like, this middle number three is like realization. Realization, yeah. That's right. The experience of realization. Experience of realization. So, the five positions, I'm learning, the five positions usually are viewed as how you practice after realization. And the way they're explicated is different according to who's talking about them. So somebody can use the five positions and talk about them in one way, someone else can use them and talk about them in a little different way, as long as they don't lose the real meaning.

[43:38]

So, Tozan's disciple, the name of the school seems to come from both of their names, So and To. But that's questionable, too. And sometimes, when you read the commentaries, it's a little confusing because some people have interchanged these. Like Sozon seems to have interchanged these, and he developed this in a more thorough way than Tozan. Tozan just put it out there. These are the Japanese names, even the Chinese. Tozan and Sozan. And Zan means mountain.

[44:43]

So they're To and Zo. When you pointed at the sun, sun, you said form is emptiness, and between emptiness is form. Why is that? When you say form is emptiness, it means all forms are empty in their own being. Therefore, the emptiness is the thing you're talking about. Not that they're two different things, but they have two characteristics. It has two characteristics. So I'm using, in order to keep my mind straight, this explication. Was it Sozon who wrote the verses?

[45:45]

He wrote his own verses. Tozon wrote his verses. Sozon wrote his verses. You can find Sozon's verses in Charles Luck's book, in the chapter called the Soto sect, where he talks about So if we look on the left of the circles, you have the names of the trigrams, wind, damage, greatness, faith, and illumination. So wind is this one. Everybody see what it is?

[46:47]

And wind has the feeling of purity. pondering this, and my Anja came in and said, oh, the wind is so pure. I said, oh, just thinking about that. Excuse me, you have the wind up there with the bison. The wind is the top one. When you chalk it in, it's white. Yeah, when I chalk it in, it's white. I'm trying to make white white. And this green is black. I think the second one. It's different from how we have it on the sheets. Yeah, it's a little different in that it's upside down, right? Yeah, you can do it any way you want, but I don't have an eraser. Yes, I do. We even have bigger pieces of chalk. You know why?

[47:53]

If you look at this, you see it's backwards. He has the host on the bottom, I mean on the right. Usually we go from right to left, right? We usually go from left to right. He's going from right to left. Then that's the way they write. That's the Chinese way. We can just look at our presentation. That's one thing that makes this a little confusing.

[49:01]

When you're looking at the thunderbolt, and then, yes, that's it, is that somehow he starts on the right instead of the left. And then we get confused. That's confusing. One on the right, two on the left, right? Yes. Three in the middle, four underneath three, and then five on the left. So I'm just being consistent with the diagram. Another way of looking at this is like this. That's another way of looking at the 3 and the 5.

[50:30]

one, two, three, four, five, six lines. And these are the five, one. These are the five positions, but with three, You can see it this way. That's maybe more complicated than this actually. So then, you see on the right here where it says, Host position, guest position. So here he is using host and guest as a way of talking about the absolute and the particular.

[52:05]

Host means dark or the absolute. And guest means the relative. So we are all guests. Each one of us is a guest in the house of the host. Can you talk at all about... I mean, I can memorize the fact that it doesn't mean anything to me. No, we'll have to talk about it more. What I'm doing right now is talking about the language of the thing, right? I'm not really talking, we're not really going into it. I'm just talking about the language. Okay. And you say you can memorize it? Great. Well, I mean, I did. That's good. But it still won't mean anything. That's right. Well, you're just learning the letters. Yeah, OK. It's whole and part. I mean, like, this is a whole. And the whole is composed of parts.

[53:09]

I mean, there are parts. Yeah, the whole and the parts, yeah. It's like the host and the caretaker. Yes. That's right. The whole and the parts. You started with going down five weeks and we ended this period. Oh yeah, well wind, thank you. Wind is like, has the feeling of purity, and which is like the host position. And then the second one, damage. Damage has the feeling of breaking up something, right? That's why I like to use disturbance. It's a little less violent. You know, if you have a pond of water that's completely still, and you throw a stone into it, you have a disturbance, you create the waves. So waves in water is the perfect way to talk about, you know, as an example, to use as an example.

[54:11]

So you could say, I like to use it with disturbance. You don't really damage the water, but you do disturb it. You break up its tranquility, or its stillness. So, another way of talking about the real is stillness. And a way of talking about activity is disturbance. Everything is constantly being disturbed. we get very, kind of a disturbance. Well, I think that's important, actually. It's a very important point. Because when we're doing this, we also have this. And in our zazen, which is getting back,

[55:18]

to the source, we have a lot of disturbance. What do we do with that? So this is where it starts talking about practice. What do we do with disturbance? Sometimes we call it damage. Can I say anything about the relationship between Wind, waves, and water. Would you correspond to wind with breath, or is that getting too far? That's getting too far. Actually, I'm not using it in that way. I think it means purity, in a sense. Because wind is action, right? In its kinetic sense. But in its poetic sense, here, I think it means purity. and damage is impurity.

[56:20]

I mean, it's disturbing the nature of purity. As a matter of fact, in Buddhadharma, just being born is disturbing the nature of purity. Everything that's happening in the world is called impurity, if you compare it with the purity of stillness. But it's the merging of the pure and the impure. It's the original sin thing. Well, that's right. If you keep it in a dualistic sense, then it becomes original sin. If you don't go beyond the duality of the pure and impure, then you end up with original That's the difference between Christianity and Buddhism. Is that the impure is only... the pure is only found within the impure.

[57:26]

So that's what we're coming to. That's what actually this is about. The difference of unity and... what's the other word? Emerging of difference and unity. Well, I'm just wondering if there's any other translation besides pure and impure, because pure and impure does give us so much trouble. Of course, all these questions. I said absolute, infinite? Dark, light? Well... Yes, there are. Yes, there are. But let us think about it this way too. Okay, but then we get into her trouble. She's not in trouble. And besides, how can we not do it unless we get into her trouble? Why should we avoid her trouble? Well, if that's what we want to think of it as.

[58:34]

Let's not get stuck in terms. Well, I don't want to get stuck in terms, that's why I'm asking about it. The way to not get stuck in terms is to go along with it. But then language, well, all right. Look, if you're going to speak, you have to speak in these terms. We have to speak in terms. Well, and in order to synthesize something, we have to have the things that we're synthesizing. We can't say that there's, you know, that they're not there. No, I didn't want to do that, but as you started to describe it, when you said something that would merge, And as you were talking about pure and impure, and the Buddhist notion of it, what I thought of was words like plain and mottled, or full of stuff and without stuff, which is connoting something somewhat different than pure and impure.

[59:44]

Those are also metaphors for pure and impure. They are metaphors for pure and impure, actually. They're clear in the model. Absolutely. Relatively. Does pure have to mean good? No. If you're bad, it doesn't. No, it doesn't have to mean that. I understand that. But we're starting at the beginning. You know, we have to go through it. We have to go through this. And the only way we can go through it is by using the terms. Otherwise, it doesn't mean anything. I have to say with Barbara, though, it surprised me. You know, I just had never heard that. Well, the other terms that are used are difference and unity. And also the ten thousand things and the one. Those have no... Judeo-Christian, moralistic... But pure and impure are also Buddhist terms, folks.

[60:51]

Definitely. What is? Pure and impure are Buddhist terms. Well, that was what I was trying to ascertain from you when I asked, does it get translated differently? Not, can we find other terms? Because I knew we could. But is that a good translation? You can find all kinds of metaphors for pure and impure. Yes, I know that. I know that. All right, I don't want to keep it going. Maybe it's helpful, maybe it's not. It was just my point. Well, you know, I'm not afraid of pure and impure. It doesn't bother me a bit. I'm just not bothered by it. I'm not bothered by it, but it narrows the scope. It's like a scope, right? And sometimes we narrow it, sometimes we pull it out. Sometimes we're looking at it from one perspective, sometimes from another.

[61:57]

So pure and impure is one way of looking at it. And it's definitely a Buddhist term. So we can teach what we want, but I think we need to stick with it, to try and understand what the Buddhist people are talking about. And we do use these terms, pure and impure. And in the Platform Sutra, Wei Nang says there are people who set up the idea of purity and try to follow this dualistic idea of purity. And those people are completely on the wrong track. That's true. That doesn't mean we can't talk about purity and pure, because we're trying to understand, you know, what does that mean? Now, if you have a bottle of sake and you pour chocolate into it, first you have pure sake,

[63:12]

Then you pour chocolate into it, you know, and it becomes a... You know, a pure chocolate. You made a mess! It's impure, right? So... Well, you ruined the chocolate. You ruined the chocolate! Wind has the connotation here of the pure. Clean. Yeah, clean. Clear. That's right, clean. Clear. Clear. Good. Very clean. Good. and disturbance or damage. It's like if you have a pond of water. The water is pure and clean, and you throw the rock into it and it has waves, but the water is still pure and clean, even though it's disturbed. But because it seems like the opposite of the clean, clear pool, we call it impure. If something, and this is just a metaphor, right?

[64:15]

Impure, if something bothers that purity, but that's life, right? The stone in the water is life. But the stillness is also life. But life as we know it is the waves, because something's always being thrown into the water. So what is called the strength? And the other is called the inclined. The inclined. The bent, actually. This one, which is pure white, is called the inclined. No, I mean, excuse me, this one. The dark is called the straight. And the light is called the incline. As soon as something bends, then it goes into motion.

[65:16]

Disturbance. Just metaphors. So wind and damage, or wind and disturbance, are like clarity on one side and disturbance on the other, or the absolute Dominating on one side is called clear, like the clear hall, the pure breeze flows through the clear hall. This is the mind with no thought. The space between the thoughts. A large, big space between the thoughts. It's not that there are no thoughts, it's that there's no disturbance. The second one, which corresponds to this, is where the activity or the light side is dominant.

[66:35]

So that's the disturbance side. Everything's moving and relating to everything else. And the relating is called disturbance. You can call it relating. You can call it anything you want. This is what it's called, damage, disturbance. And then the third one is the resurgence of the real. The second one is called the seeming containing the real. In other words, the real is actually underneath. Underneath is within the seeming, but you don't see it. You only see what the eye can see at the moment. And then resurgence of the real is actually the integration of these two. This is the integration of these two. So these two, in a way, you could say they're theoretical, but not in everyone's list.

[67:42]

But you can look at them as form is emptiness and emptiness is form, as the philosophical basis or the actual basis before the real activity of our life. So this is like the two legs of... Yes? So does number three correspond with practice? Number three corresponds with practice. It corresponds with understanding. With these two as a basis, with these two thoroughly understood, or I'll say understood, then this comes forth. In other words, the resurgence of the real within our actual activity. So this is kensho, realization.

[68:47]

This is activity based on realization. I was thinking of Dogen saying, without practice it is not manifested. Right. That's right. And this is the practice that manifests it, that allows it to manifest. It's called the resurgence of the real. That's one way that it's ... and it's called achievement. And the other ... it's also called greatness. And it's called the host coming to life. In other words, the activity of Zen practice, where, as Dogen says, when you're swimming on the waves, your feet are walking on the bottom, right? So, it means that this person's activity is always based on the real.

[69:52]

Everything this person does is based on the real. But do they know it? Then they know it. They know it. Are we talking about their actions or their attention? Their actions. You said everything they do, what? Is based on the real. On reality. It's like living in reality. And knowing the difference between delusion and enlightenment. Can you substitute emptiness and say that everything they do is based on their understanding of emptiness? Yeah. Their form is based on their understanding of emptiness. The form of their life. Is there a third path of seeing? What? Darshan of Marga. Oh, Darshan of Marga. I don't know about that. I'm not in a position to make that comparison.

[71:00]

There are various systems like that. tattoos and so forth, which are somewhat related, but they're not exactly the same. So then, this fourth one, called The Seeming Uniting with the Real, you'll notice this is pure white. There's no trace of the darkness in this one. This is the position where someone who has achieved this expresses their life as selfless activity.

[72:14]

In other words, entering the world of delusion, diving into the world of delusion without any trace of this showing. This is like hiding your light in the dust and just working for sentient beings. It's a true bodhisattva? Right, this is the true bodhisattva. This is called entering the dusts. This is, you could say this is form is form. This is form is emptiness and emptiness is form and this is form is just form. You have to speak a little louder. What would the third one be in terms of form and emptiness? Well, I don't know. I'm just calling it formless form. Formless form is the fourth one. What would the third one be? I'm not saying. You'll figure it out. I don't really understand how that two means different in terms of emptiness, what the fourth is.

[73:20]

Yeah, well, we'll explain that later. Because we have another class. We'll get into it more deeply. That's what I was saying. So this is the stage of teaching, where someone who enters the world, And his actions are consistent with their mouth. And the fifth one is called Absolute Achievement. And this is integration of the real and the seeming.

[74:21]

This is characterized sometimes like an old man or an old woman who has gone through this and doesn't even think about Zen and Buddhism. His actions are so, his body-mind is so integrated with the real that they dropped all the stuff, all of the props. nothing special to do. Maybe sit by the fire and draw. But when something needs to happen, they make it happen.

[75:23]

It's like the kind of person who's really, you wouldn't even recognize walking down the Not necessarily set up, no. Not necessarily set up in some way. So you're going to call it a true man with no rank? Yeah, true man with no rank. That's Rinzai's term. I'm sorry? Well, I mean, I'm not denying or saying that that's wrong, but I'm just saying that it is Rinzai's term to be used to speak of the Absolute, actually. how the absolute and the relative, how this person relates to the absolute. And you said it's like the true person of no rank is constantly coming in and out of your six senses, but you don't recognize this person. Is it emptiness is emptiness?

[76:31]

You went through form is emptiness, emptiness is form. What is form? Is it emptiness is emptiness? You could say emptiness is emptiness here. And then, the way I would say it, right? No one has ever said this. No one's ever gotten past these two. So I'm saying, this is emptiness, emptiness. This form is form, and this is emptiness, is emptiness. This is just. Everything is just the way it is. Suchness. Which is that? Let's pivot. Is that the one who isn't busy? Yeah, the one who is not busy. And that's where you are when you start, isn't it? Well, it doesn't matter where you start and where you end. The problem we have is we think we're going somewhere. We think we're going to get here.

[77:32]

We think we're going to get there. I have to get stuck back on number three, and the question I have is from the point of view of the way the Western mind works. It's a question about being, what's it called? What is it when you think about yourself when you're talking? Self-consciousness. About being self-conscious as though You know, you're swimming on top of the water and your feet are touching the ground. And I said, does the fish know it? And you said, yes. And I just don't get that. Well, why? Because... Because if you know it, you know the wrong thing.

[78:40]

Well, there's knowing and knowing, and what do you mean by knowing? Oh, knowing means, yeah, I'm swimming on top, but I'm also touching the ground. That's not knowing. Good. But, you know, not knowing. So knowing is actually faith. Yeah, knowing is not knowing. Yeah. Okay. Not knowing is not knowing. Okay. So, and like if you talk about number four, the boy, this is a real bodhisattva. Who's a bodhisattva? He said it. This one says faith. Okay. I'm happy again. But there's self-consciousness, there are two kinds of self-consciousness.

[79:47]

One kind of self-consciousness is where you become conscious of yourself as an individual or as an ego. The self-consciousness of when you're walking a tightrope and then you suddenly realize, I'm walking a tightrope. And then you become self-conscious and you can't do it anymore because you've cut yourself off from what you're doing. You've made a division between yourself and what you're doing. That's, you know, so you get up, this is called stage fright or something, you know. You get up there and you forget your lines because you've cut yourself off from the actual, you're no longer in it. That's the kind of self-consciousness that we usually associate with self-consciousness. The other kind of self-consciousness is where you're completely conscious of yourself as integral with what you're doing. And then your self becomes the whole thing.

[80:50]

That's self-consciousness. Conscious of whole self, rather than just consciousness of self split off from the whole. So I think of self-consciousness in those two ways. Right, and the second one is not knowing. The second one is not knowing. In other words, it's letting go of a small self. Okay, it's five to nine, and I think we kind of worked our way through this. This next week and go on to the next class. Well, I'm going to focus in the next class on the commentary. But I probably use the other one, too.

[82:08]

I haven't figured out exactly how to do it yet. OK. This must be somewhere. That's not what's going to go on. This is the last. Are there any extra. Xerox things left over. A lot of words.

[83:48]

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