Once again, good morning. Today's speaker is Denke Raoul Moncayo. He began sitting in France in the 70s, and then he moved to Berkeley and began then sitting at Dwight Way. He's worked in psychology for decades. He was the training director for Mission Mental Health for a long time and continues to run a private psychology practice. He's a father and author. And recently he was given full Dharma transmission and opened a wonderful Zen Do and El Cerrito called Blue Mountain Zen Do. I would like everybody to please warmly welcome Denkei Okorohu Mankaiwa. Good morning.

[01:02]

Can you hear me? It's good? I also have the, this, the iPods. Is that better or this is good? Okay. Well, I only see a few of you. I see a few familiar faces there on the screen. Is there a way to just put everybody on instead of just looking at myself? Yes. Go up to the top right-hand corner and you'll see a grid. And then press that and that should show everybody. The gallery view? Yeah. Yes, gallery view. Is that good? Then I see everybody. Wonderful. Hello, I see some of your faces. Hi, everybody's so small. Hey, Hosan. And so do I see everybody who's actually on or there's some people in the back?

[02:06]

Some people in the back, I guess. Okay. There are multiple pages, Raul. What? There are multiple pages. There are four pages of people now. Oh, wow. Only the first page. There are 65 people here. OK. Wow. Amazing. There's Peter Overton. Hi, Peter. I haven't seen you in a long time. And Leslie, everybody. So this is unusual. It's a little bit funny speaking to a computer with all these faces on it. Not that I'm not used to it. since I do work a lot online, but not with so many people. So today is our day off here at Blue Mountain, although now the Zender has been closed.

[03:11]

Zender was closed in March, and then I opened it online in April. pretty much the same schedule. And I wasn't planning to be speaking like this. This talk was going to be at BCC, and then the coronavirus hit us all. And so life has changed since then. And we've been living in a slightly different world since then. A friend of mine sent me a photo. I don't know if it's gone around. Have you seen it? You know, it's two photos. One is a monk sitting in Zazen and the other one is the monk sitting in Zazen and coronavirus. And it's the same photo basically. So there's something about sitting

[04:14]

that has to do with this place that we come back to, where we have some kind of immunity. I think Darwin builds our immune system, but I wouldn't be surprised. And then Ross also sent me this quote from Pascal, which probably everybody has seen as well. here, which is that to the effect that the problems of the world could be solved if people were able to sit alone quietly at home. Not so easy to do. I mean, we have practice. We have experience with zazen. It's not so hard to sit alone quietly, peacefully at home and at the same time feel at one with everyone.

[05:18]

So we have this real subject who's all alone, and then we have the subject that we are that is a collectivity, that we're all in it together. But the two sides have to be in balance. If the collective side is to emphasize that we can't really sit quietly alone at home in peace with everyone, So we need these two sides for the whole thing to work. Staying at home and being part of community. So the Buddha is just one at the same time as many. One and many at the same time. Sitting alone but sitting with the entire universe. I had been working online for a long time, so I'm used to it.

[06:27]

It wasn't a big... I mean, professionally. So it wasn't a big change. I'm used to speaking with people online from different parts of the world. And... So then the next question is, you know, this question of the virus. You know, what is a virus? And how is it that we have this kind of war between virus and cells, between virus and the immune system? It's almost like, you know, people talk about war, it's like there's a war inside the body. But is it really? war. You know the virus are mysterious because they attack cells and they both have this exchange between viruses and cells is a semiotic process inside the body and at the same time has all kinds of symbolic

[07:40]

dimensions to it as we see nowadays how the virus is inserted right into smack into our political process. So do viruses take political sides? One wouldn't think so. It gets everybody, affects everyone. But I'll risk saying this. Lindsey Graham told Trump that his enemy is the virus, not the Democrats or the press. So the virus, as we know, or we think we know, well, there are all kinds of conspiracy theories going on, which is very quite disturbing, the kinds of things people come up with.

[08:43]

I was working with one of my people I work with, and this person is in the South. And so he was having a staff meeting online on Zoom, pretty much like we are now. And so they were discussing, you know, how people were feeling about the lockdown and the virus. And this person was so disturbed because he's from the South, but he has a different kind of sensibility that what I'm going to say right now in a second. So one person lift their hand and says, I'm not staying home. Nobody's locking me down. I'm going to go out there and fight the virus myself. Seriously. The other person said, I'm going to go buy a shotgun to deal with the virus.

[09:52]

And the third person said, I'm not listening or obeying to stop signs anymore. And this was kind of literal, and people were saying it seriously. It's amazing the kinds of responses people can have. Just being stopped or told to sit quietly for a while, you know? It comes from the outside. People can have all kinds of reactions to it. So, you know, I work with people in China as well. So I knew about the, I was hearing about the virus, you know, when it was hitting China first and wearing masks and all that. And actually they sent me, they were worried about me once it got over here and we didn't have any masks here.

[10:58]

So they sent me a whole package of masks. to my house because they were worried they wanted me to be protected and I think they have a few, some sense of little remorse too that, you know, it started over there and now it's spread all over the world and they feel bad about it. So, you know, telling me about how people eat all kinds of animals, you know, they don't keep kosher there. And, uh, uh, So the bats apparently, what's the problem? And the bats have an incredible immune system, you know? So the bats really, virus doesn't do anything to the bats because the bats are very strong because the wings, how fast they flip, or they, how you call it, that that really gives them an incredible immune system.

[11:59]

So maybe that's where Batman comes from. Batman, you know, the strong immune system of the bats. But once you eat them, it gets to us. We don't have the same immune system until we build some kind of herd immunity. So, so far, 50,000 people have died in the US. It's a lot of people. because people say as much as people died in the Vietnam War, not World War II, but, you know, it's a lot of people. And it's a lot of the vulnerable people, you know, people without strong immune systems for various reasons, you know, poor health, poverty, mental health problems, So that's not so fair, you know, that the virus takes the vulnerable.

[13:06]

I guess that's kind of Darwinian, you know, survival of the fittest. But where's compassion in all this? And I've been really moved, you know, hearing the various reports, I guess we all have, of people really working on the front lines, you know, and working in emergency rooms, the doctors, the nurses, the attendants, just really hearing really moving reports, you know, how all these people are dying and they're dying alone without their families. Or there's some other place, you know, and they get the virus and they have to go into hotel to quarantine and then they get sick and they die there. And so the medical staff, we're talking about how they feel that there are these people dying and they're trying to save them and they're dying in front of them.

[14:15]

And they know they're dying without their families. And so they are their families. the kindness of strangers. And what's really amazing is that people feel, you know, there's all this grief that people die, but there's also this incredible feeling of love, you know, that's springing forth from our nature, from our Buddha nature. When we get to birth and death, yes, people are dying and are dying alone. We all die alone. You know, when it comes to it, we're going to go through that passage alone, but it's nice to, to feel that there's people around you. But the passage, we have to all do it alone. So we're all doing it alone, and they're all doing it alone. But there's a lot of people with a lot of love in their hearts around them. And I take a lot of comfort in that, that the virus is also

[15:18]

not only bringing up death, but it's also bringing up, it's bringing out forth from birth and death this incredible, pure kind of love, you know, that is overwhelming and all-encompassing, very powerful. So it's nice to hear, it's comforting that in our nature we have that as well, when it comes down to it. I really have faith that that's what we all meet when we go through that passage. And people are feeling it all around. I remember working in a clinic like that, and you feel that. It's a strong feeling. There's kind of a big presence in the midst of all the suffering and healing. So during birth and death, we encounter first hand are wooden age, no question about it.

[16:21]

And you know, that also makes me think another thing that I read recently, you know, in terms of viruses and cells, because you know, mammals evolved from viruses, you know, because mammals had to develop the placenta, in order to have the new life inside the mother's body instead of outside like in an egg, which is much more vulnerable to predators. And so the placenta was made of a virus that got into the nucleus of the cell and took over one of the genes in some cells and then specialize the gene to create the placenta. And so a new gene had to be acquired to have a new organ that then could support life and compassion for new life.

[17:38]

because the immune system would have treated the fetus inside as a foreign intrusion. Because the immune system is not always good. I mean, it's pretty good, but you know, so the immune system is not always good and viruses are not always bad. That's also part of our nature, Buddha nature. You know, we have good and bad, we have virus and cells and sometimes The cells are not so good, the immune system is not so good, and sometimes the virus, even though it's really bad, can have some good that comes out of it. So maybe this is a new organ being born. A new organ for our species being. Hmm. Did you hear that?

[18:46]

All your FaceTime just started ringing and it blotted the whole screen. So sorry about that. So it was an unpredictable leap in evolution. So maybe that's the, what can we hope for in this disaster? Maybe that they will unpredictable leap in evolution and the whole economy is gonna have to be restructured. The whole world. Although I'm really concerned about the third world, you know, with this virus. So, how much time, how are we doing with time? We are great. Yes, we're great. And anytime between 10.50 and 11 o'clock, you can stop for Q&A.

[19:52]

And I have no idea how to stop your FaceTime from ringing, but we're good. So anytime between 10.50, which is in 14 minutes, and 11 o'clock, you can stop for Q&A. All right. So I'm going to read a little bit from Suzuki Roshi. Originally, before the coronavirus started, I thought about talking from this talk of Tsukiroshi a little bit. But then since we got into the lockdown, coronavirus, I felt that was more important to more, you know, what's happening right now. But since we have a few minutes, Let's see. It's a little bit different. I think there may be points there that may connect.

[20:59]

So I'll try it. I don't know, maybe it would be better to open up the discussion now, Hosan, what do you think? And so we all talk about this, or should I talk a little bit more? I think it would be either way, but you know, You've laid out a lot of stuff. I think there might be interesting conversation, unless you're tying it up with something that... Well, the most important thing, you know, that this talk of Suzuki Roshi on traditional Zen spirit, the importance of how we make contact with birth and death, and with Buddha nature, that's the fundamental practice of Shikantaza. And that's where we have to go back to in these times.

[22:01]

And so he was, in this talk, he's pointing out how, you know, when Bodhidharma came to China, people were already studying philosophical Buddhism. for quite some time, and he says that even though Buddhist philosophy is very rich and deep and profound, that that's not the place where we start. Where we start is in practice, so that it's not like the Emperor Wu, which, you know, had an interesting name, Wu, which is the beginning of Zen in China. Chan, I guess I should say Chan, because Chinese now, you know, they want to reappropriate Chan, because Zen is mostly Japanese.

[23:09]

And they consider themselves kind of like the source, of Chan, which they are, of course. So when Emperor Wu came, he had been studying Buddhist philosophy for a long time, you know, because Kumara Jiva had translated all the Mahayana sutras. So he was thinking, he asked him the question, you know, why is the highest meaning of the holy truths? And Bodhidharma didn't give him an answer because he felt like he was trying to say, Oh, you're going to bring the meditation. And now we're going to experimentally validate all our theories about Buddhism, you know, uh, as if it were some kind of scientific, uh, procedure, you know? And so Bodhidharma said, no, there's nothing to validate here, you know, uh, nothing holy, uh, only emptiness. And we just have the practice. And so,

[24:10]

we build our understanding from the practice and from Buddha nature. And from there we start. We don't try to demonstrate the philosophy with the practice. And then that way the philosophy is not top heavy and can change and evolve over time and over the centuries because the practice remains the same. And so the teaching then can evolve, as it has evolved, you know, from, from Hinayana to, or Theravada to Mahayana to, to Chan, and then from Chan to Zen, because Dogon is kind of, has a special place in the East among Korea, China, and Japan.

[25:12]

It's the culmination of our school. So I wanted to say that, and I guess, you know, this question of Buddha nature touches the question of birth and death that we're all being so affected by now. And so any, how we practice with it, and has to come from the practice itself and how we work with our feelings and our compassion with that. So with that I'm going to stop and open it up so we can have a little discussion if you like, some questions or comments or whatever you like. So you can raise your virtual hand. If you push participants, there will be a column on the right-hand side of your screen.

[26:18]

You can just push any of those buttons, yes or no, or a blue hand. It depends on the update that you have of Zoom, but you can press any of those and I'll call on you. You mean there's a little arrow on the right, the blue one? Um, if you go to the bot, yes, that's right. It should be in, there should be different signs there. There should be a yes and a no, a green and a red and things in people. There you go. Ross Ross raised his hand. Um, some Ross, I don't see Ross. Um, he's at the top of your screen. I'll call on them if you'd like a role. Okay. If they speak, they will come forward. No, Yes, they will. You can also type questions and I will read them. So typing or raising your hand. And of course we're familiar with each other in the form. So if there's a pause, feel free to unmute yourself and just please be brief and start with your full, your name.

[27:25]

Okay. So Ross, could you please unmute yourself and ask a question? Where is he? Hey, Raul. Denkei mankayo. Hey, Ross. My name is Ross Blum, for those people who don't know me, and for those people who do know me. So my question, Denkei, is one of Soja's first teachings that I recall that still sticks with me is, it's not so much what happens to you, but how you deal with it. So I'm wondering, in this time of the virus, how you're dealing with that and if it's affected your practice in any way. Well, it hasn't. I mean, that's what I was saying earlier, you know, that basically, I mean, the Blue Mountain is downstairs. I live upstairs, right? So I just go from up and down, you know, with the practice.

[28:28]

I don't really have to travel anywhere for the practice. So I've been pretty staying at home for the past year and four months. I haven't been going out that much. So in that sense, it hasn't changed that much. I mean, there's less people coming here. People can't come, you know, because it's closed. And my friends also, we're practicing social distance. So we talk on the phone and do Zoom, socialize that way, and then work, you know, on Zoom or on the phone. And... So like that cartoon that was sent, the before virus and during virus, the Zen monk is the Zen monk. That's right. Yeah. Were you there at the beginning I mentioned? I mentioned you. I did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was there. I've been here from the beginning.

[29:28]

All right. Thank you. Ben, please ask a question. Hi, Denke. It's nice to see everybody on their lives. It's very different. It's nice to see everybody in this virtual Zendo. Sorry, next question. Hi, Denke. Can you hear me? Hey, Ben. Hi. Thank you so much for your talk. You're welcome. I especially appreciated the perspective on virus and cells. I don't know if I have anything else to say about that, but that was very rich and interesting. I wanted to touch again on people dying alone, because those stories have really hit me hard. And a part of me really feels like there's something really cruel about people having to face that alone unexpectedly or without any human contact or nearness. And something about that bothers me a lot more than the actual death.

[30:31]

And I don't know if that's how those people feel, but that's how I feel about it right now. But thank you for reminding us that everyone, you know, that the actual passage is something everyone does by themselves anyway, or with everyone, but alone. And maybe that makes it somehow okay. But I just wanted to mention that I had heard that, I think in Italy, maybe elsewhere, There are some priests who were attending to the sick and dying, actually at risk to their own lives. And a number of them died because they felt that they wanted to be close to those people and serve those people at that time. And I was very touched by that. So I guess the last thing I want to say is I've been working a lot with, or thinking a lot about birth and death recently, including during the last Rahatsu Sashin and something just sort of opened up for me more recently. that without, it's like a deep part of me feels the suffering and loss and sort of this illusion of wrongness that I feel around death, right?

[31:41]

That it seems unfair and so difficult to cope with sometimes. But then another part of me is seeing that without the death, there's no birth. And by not letting things die and pass away, big things, small things, you're robbing the birth. And you could maybe even say poisoning the well of life or something like that. And so that anyway, that came up for me recently that I have to accept death because that's how new things can come to be. So thank you. You're welcome. Yeah. I mean, when we say alone, we don't mean, you know, as we always say, Sojin always said, alone, it can be relative aloneness, where you feel lonely, or it can also be where you feel, we experienced that in Zazen, where we're sitting all together in the room, and everybody's doing their own practice. And yet at the same time, we feel the support of everybody doing it at the same time.

[32:45]

So that's the kind of, aloneness we need, so we're not really alone. And when we're dying, it feels like we're dying alone, but we're not really dying alone. We're at one with the universe. So, and yeah, and for us Buddhists, death is nirvana, spara nirvana. And you know, so we have an intimate connection with birth and death as Buddhists. Susan Marvin. Where's Susan? Good morning, Raul. I don't see you. Oh, there you are. Hi. Hi, Susan. Now you're muted.

[33:48]

How's that, can you hear me? Yes, I can. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you very much for your talk, Raul. You're welcome. You talked a little bit about seeing love come forth. Yes. When you talked about the hospitals. Yes. And I've had this sense that The coronavirus has the potential for being a kind of great equalizer. And yet that requires effort and awareness and intentional action and maybe joy. And I was just wondering if you could say more about how you, so we each have that potential, not just people in the hospital who are working with victims of the coronavirus. And so I was just wondering how you see that arising or emerging in yourself or your neighborhood or your zendo or our community or Berkeley.

[35:05]

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that's the predominant feeling for me has been one of compassion. for everyone, you know, across designations or political parties or, you know, all the different ways that we separate ourselves for, you know, good reasons and many times. But that feeling feels very prevalent. And I think it's because also, you know, I mean, when we say it, our heart opens too, right? And so it's in our body. It's the cells of our bodies, the level at which the virus is working at. For a while, I didn't know if I had it, because I went to LA for a weekend a while back in February, and I caught something on the plane on the way back.

[36:12]

I didn't know what it was. It seemed like a cold, just like a cold, but since we don't have any testing, you know, um, so I got, I got over it. So I also felt the, the, the cold or the flu, whatever it was that I had, which never rose to much, you know, fever or discomfort or anything, but I clearly had something. And so I also, the body was working through that and, but you know, I was experiencing great compassion, you know, great opening of the heart and grief also, you know. And so I think when we sit, our body, you know, opens up that way, you know, opens up our heart. So I think that's probably what we can hope for that can come out of all this death and I don't know about the, probably the, you know, talking about semiotic systems and symbolic systems, right?

[37:18]

Bodily systems are semiotic systems and they interact with symbolic systems. And of course, Buddhism is a symbolic system. Mind, body and mind. So, equalizer symbolically. But at the level of the body, why does it take all the vulnerable people? I don't like that about the virus. It doesn't have compassion in that sense. The survival of the fittest is not quite Buddha nature. So I'm kind of puzzled by that, just how nature works and what's nature and what's Buddha nature. and how the two interact. How could Buddha nature not be survival of the fittest, Raoul?

[38:25]

Well, because survival of the fittest is, you know, whoever is the strongest lives and whoever is weak dies. And compassion is all about, I mean, the whole Bible is all about protecting the vulnerable. Sometimes you see that in animals, but often you don't. The vulnerable get eaten. The little cubs get eaten all the time. The big animals eat the little ones without compulsion. compunction, or with compulsion. And I'm not sure that's Buddha nature. I think that's painful, right? But I'm not sure it's Buddha nature, and it's one of the puzzles that we have, you know? Because Buddha nature has to have compassion, and compassion is not just a socialized feeling that we're raised to become.

[39:33]

It's part of our nature. And you see that in animals, you see their fierceness, how they eat each other, and at the same time, they're capable of compassion. But in human beings, it's different. An animal doesn't have karma for eating another animal. But if you're born as a human form, then the karma is different. You will have. karma for eating another human being. There's no question about that. So I think it has to do with the different types of species being and why we are born in this human form where we have the capacity and potential for Buddhahood and we have to use that We have to use that. That's our task, to realize that and bring it forth.

[40:37]

Thank you. Heiko, please ask your question. You were talking about the things that we draw out of this experience with coronavirus. One of the, in terms of the Buddha Dharma, one of the most interesting things I've seen in my neighborhood, I live in far South Berkeley, almost into Oakland, people on the street, we go to a little corner store, we see each other, but there's quite a bit of division and gentrification going on down here. While with us all wearing masks, I find that my neighbors tend to nod at me and we tend to nod at each other more frequently. We are also aware and making those curvaceous walks around each other to avoid being within the six feet. So what I'm seeing in terms of manifesting the Dharma or the Buddha reality is that we are aware that we affect each other.

[41:44]

We are aware of each other's presence And we are aware that we need to monitor or modify or at least be conscious of our interactions, whether they're five feet, six feet, barreling down the sidewalk or walking in the middle of the street. People are really beginning to recognize community and Buddha nature without using those words at all, I would say. Thank you. And that's the comment. I'd like to see if anybody has that sort of experience themselves. Well, there's physical distance, and then there's psychical distance, right, or emotional distance. People can be very far, and yet we can feel very close to them. People can die and not be in this world anymore, and we can feel very close with them.

[42:49]

No separation. So how we hold each other at a distance, close to one's heart, is the practice. Really, distance is no distance. Kelsey Byrne. Hi, Kelsey. Can you hear me? Yes. Thank you for your talk, Raul. I was thinking when you started talking just now about compassion, And thinking back to you describing your, I think someone you work with who's in the South and people saying that they were not going to stay home and that they were gonna go out and shoot the virus. And I'm just wondering if you think there's compassion in their actions or is it just selfishness?

[43:53]

Yeah, I mean, it's just, I think that's kind of the survivalists, right? That's what that movement is called, the survivalists, the people who think the world is ending. And, you know, so that's why everybody rushed to buy everything, you know, for two months or something. It wasn't left any, you know, no toilet paper or anything, because people have this kind of instinctual survivalists mentality of the survival of the fittest, you know? And it's instinctual, it's Darwinian, but it's not Buddhaic. I say Buddhaic, I don't say Buddhist. And so, yeah, it's a kind of selfishness, you know, because it's, you know, oh, I'm going to go. Nobody tells me to stay. at home, you know, because it's the whole thing with the government, right?

[44:56]

And so that's part of what's going on, too. I mean, in China, the government has a lot of control, and people accept that because they're obedient. It's an obedient culture. And they have centuries of that, whether under communism or under Confucianism, under the emperors, whatever, right? So everybody stays. And I said, what are we going to do over here, you know? Nobody's going to listen. And actually I was surprised when San Francisco was one of the first cities to lock down and everybody stayed home. And I thought, San Francisco, you know, the radicals, you know, rebellious people, you know, they're not gonna, you know, they're not gonna take it sitting down. Everybody, you know, complied. I was blown away by that in some ways. I mean, it's not that unusual, I guess we could expect it from us. So the blue states have been a lot more compliant.

[46:00]

And so it's this whole thing with the government, that people don't trust the government. And the government has failed totally. I mean, it's such a sad story. I mean, I think of my mother. the sense of pride she had about the U.S. government. You know, she worked for the Fulbright Commission. And I'm glad she's not around to see this travesty. And, you know, because the government really is not taking care of people, you know. And that's the main, that's their main function. And so it's very, that part is very disturbing. you know, to watch the president behave the way he's behaving. But, you know, we have other leaders. We have the state leaders, you know, and our own governor has stepped forward, which is, which is good.

[47:06]

So I think that's where that comes from. And the other one is like the, this kind of, you know, I don't obey stop signs, you know, that's, that's, you know, communist government or something who has stop signs on the streets, you know. So it's hard to fathom that there are people that think that way, but it's true. I guess as a sort of follow up, I'm just wondering if compassion is something that's only in interacting with others or is it compassion? Does compassion exist for interacting with yourself? Right, because compassion is just what emerges from our Buddha nature, right? It's emptiness. It's not the socialized kindness. It's just this radical emptiness that manifests as compassion or as a basis for the universe.

[48:10]

And so it gets covered over, right? That's what we always say, it gets covered over. So in these cases, these examples, that compassion is not accessible because it's covered over with selfishness and delusions and conspiracy theories and false ideas about who people are and who the other is and all of that. You know, it's just covered over several layers of delusion, unfortunately. There are a few people waiting to ask questions, but first a question from the chat role. Would Dr. Munkayo, from Susan Osher, would Dr. Munkayo say our understanding of Buddha nature is limited when we think our liking or not liking that vulnerable people die, that there is unfairness in the virus? Is that Buddha nature? So let me just, try to understand the question. So is, is Sue Osher saying that, um, uh, Buddha nature includes the, the, the fact that, uh, the vulnerable are the first to die.

[49:24]

Is that the question? I think the question is, is taking sides Buddha nature. And I'm sorry, Sue, if I miss, uh, misspoke or misinterpreted. Would, uh, would Dr. Moncayo say our understanding? So in the precepts we have, the basis is non-duality, but then we have to practice the precepts within duality. You know, do good. Don't do bad. It's like, yes, we understand there is no good and bad, ultimately, but the way we manifest the precepts in everyday life, we have to do good. Sorry, Joe. Good, we're good. So we have to make those distinctions in the life of precepts, even though our understanding is that in Buddha nature, so it's the same as Dogen saying, Buddha nature is no Buddha nature.

[50:24]

No Buddha nature is Buddha nature. So no Buddha nature, whatever idea we have about Buddha nature. So it may be that, you know, just like I was saying, the virus, if the virus has, there's a silver lining in the virus, meaning that the virus is not all bad and the immune system is not all good, And this non-duality between them, which is happening at two levels, right? One is the virus is bad, the immune system is good. The other level is the virus is not just bad and the immune system is not just good. And the reality is all of it, right? So at the same time that we can consider the fact that the virus can also have good in nature because the virus actually may be creating a new organ for a more compassionate world. So we have to understand that within Buddha nature as well.

[51:29]

Does that answer the question? Mike. So is that, okay, it's a written question, I guess. It is a written question. It was a written question. Yeah. Let's let that stand, Mike. And I know we're doing our best, and a couple of people fell off the raised hands. But the next person is Mike. Would you like to unmute and ask your question? Yes. Well, I just thought I would respond a little bit with the question. Oh, hi, Mike. Hi. All right. Good to see you. Good to see you. Now I can see where you live. Yes. This is my living room. OK. With a, yes. So you were talking about, yeah, I've heard people say this before, it's kind of like this little dark idea of this is Darwinism at work. And it was kind of creepy for me to think, Darwinism at work in this.

[52:32]

And two things kind of helped me think about it. One is to realize, I did some research and discovered that viruses are a huge part of nature, that if you were to pile them up, they would cover enormous mountain of just like, I think 150 stadiums full of some kind of meat story like material would be the global biomass of viruses. Only a tiny number of which affects humans, very, very small. So they have like their accidents, you know, they do a lot of amazing things in nature, but there's a little bit of it that just sort of leaks out and does something bad to us or that we see as bad. It did feel kind of strange to think about it because, of course, who gets hurt by the virus is partly because of choices we make, you know? Who do we make vulnerable, you know? So we're part of the Darwinian impact and how we organize our societies.

[53:35]

That's not just the virus's own, I guess. Right, but the Bodhisattva, helps those who suffer because of their own actions. Yes. Right. So we don't say, Oh, tough luck. You know, everybody got their own karma. You know, you did, you made some mistakes. You, now you're suffering. Right? I didn't make those mistakes. So they, I don't suffer. So I live my life. You live your life. I'm sorry you suffer, but that's your problem. You know, that's not the Bodhisattva way, right? The Bodhisattva way is, um, you know, we, we help people even, uh, though they, they created their own suffering and, and the work that we have to do is, is, uh, disarm the mechanism by which they perpetuate the suffering. Yes, and one more thing I thought, which is an interesting parallel story to what happened now. In Marilynne Robinson's novel, Gilead, she chronicles the history of a preacher at the end of his life in Iowa, who was a witness to the Spanish flu.

[54:49]

And there's a beautiful chapter where he writes a sermon during the period of social distancing. A lot of the things we're doing now were happening then in her novel, Chronicles, in a very interesting way. And that particular pandemic attacked young people, strong people. And the preacher, his sermon, which he ended up burning, he was gonna preach it, and he said it was one of the most sincere sermons he ever made. He burned it without preaching it on the Sunday where only a very small number of people showed up, all wearing masks. The reason why he burned it was because it was truthful in a way that wasn't gonna be helpful. He said that this pandemic was a mercy to the young men who were killed before they could go off to war because then they would not have to kill other human beings. And I was very, it was a very powerful chapter of her novel that I reread recently. And so you have, you see nature does something one time that seems Darwinian, but then in another way you have nature knocking off

[55:57]

people in the prime of their lives. But then, and he said he couldn't say that to the women at church, mostly women, very few of them wearing masks because they already were in great grief about the situation. None of them approved of World War I. They didn't want their kids off fighting a war anyway. So there was that question of how truths get, how we, yeah. But I just thought that that was sort of a interesting parallel to what we're dealing with now with a virus, some accident of nature that does one thing one time and another thing now. Our nature is threefold, right? We have animal nature, human nature, and Buddha nature. Those are the three natures. So Buddha nature sounds abstract, but it isn't. Right? Birth and death is what's not abstract about Woodridge.

[57:00]

Along those same lines, and this is the last question, Raul, are two questions that are lumped together but along the same stream. Nikki asks, also there is absolutely an unfairness, a disequalizer. People of color, LGBTQ youth, homeless, Those working in service jobs deemed essential are more affected than those who are white, of higher economic status, working from home. Those are people fortunate to still earn a paycheck and from home and less likely to have an underlining condition. and along those lines another question from Yoni or statement I agree saying quote-unquote survival of the fittest or that the stronger surviving ignores the systems of oppression that have been destroyed been destroying communities all over the world right because that's what I was saying about a semiotic system in a symbolic system so animal

[58:09]

nature's semiotic system, right? That's where Darwinian principles may be explanatory. But we also, human beings are both animal nature and Buddha nature. So the Buddha nature side, which is the side where we have values and we have principles, and we have an understanding of what Buddha nature is. So that has to compensate and for the imbalances in the natural, in the animal natural realm where we are, let's say mammals or a species, an animal species, we are, right? We came from apes. So the subcultural, symbolic system which includes buddhism and society has to balance that imbalance that darwinian imbalance in nature okay we have to bring it to a close all righty

[59:24]

Thank you so much for your words and your presence, all of you. Give me a second to post. We will be running through the final chants, the vows, just once, ladies and gentlemen, just once. Okay. And I just want to say final words. Nice to see everybody. I've missed you all and love you all. And until next time.

[59:51]

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