Yesterday, I participated in two ceremonies. The first was a memorial service for the father of an old friend of mine. And the ceremony later in the day was a Bodhisattva initiation ceremony for six people that we had here at Green Gulch. In both ceremonies, they seemed very parallel. One was, the memorial service was a celebration and a commemoration of the ending of a life,

[01:16]

a particular life. And the ordination ceremony, the initiation ceremony, the precept ceremony, was six lives that were being born, born into a new life, with a new name and new clothes, Buddha's robe, and a new family. And both of the ceremonies were very carefully crafted. Lots of effort went into both ceremonies. For the memorial service, particular people were invited who had known my friend's father very well, knew him when they were little kids, business associates, the children, and

[02:21]

they all spoke, some spoke directly to him. And there was beautiful music. And the ordination ceremony, or the initiation ceremony, many, many people helped with the preparations over many months, the sewing teachers, the precept teacher, Tenshin San, Tenshin Reb Anderson, working with them. And in both cases, the effort that was put forth to come to that point made the ceremonies alive and meaningful. In the memorial service, my friend had invited a minister from a church, and she had met

[03:23]

this minister in the hospice, when her father was in the hospice, and she heard this singing in another room, beautiful singing. He sings in the church, it's a black church, and the gospel singing. And so she knocked on the door and said, would you mind if you left your door open so my dad could listen to the music? And he said that was fine, and they got to be friends at the hospice, and she invited him to come to the memorial service, and he sang. And the quality of his voice was like, it had a softness that entered, for me, it pervaded my whole being, and it filled the room, but it had a soft quality. And he spoke to my friend's father, and said, when you heard this music, when you're in

[04:25]

the hospice, one of the songs you heard was the song about being anointed, and you were anointed as you heard this music, the music anointed you, and all your cares and troubles began to melt away by this anointment of the music. And in the initiation ceremony, before receiving the precepts, the ordinees, the initiates, are anointed with wisdom water and purified, and all their ancient twisted karma, through their own actions of confession and willingness and wanting to take the precepts, after the

[05:28]

anointment of this water, is all washed away clean and they're ready to receive the precepts. So, this kind of effort that goes into creating a ceremony, this very careful attention to the details of where the Zabutans are placed in relation to the table, so that when the vows are made, it feels exactly the right distance, the kind of intelligence and affection and effort that goes into creating a beautiful ceremony, I appreciate that very much. I've been to many, many ordination ceremonies, and each time, it doesn't change very much.

[06:29]

The precepts, perhaps there's a little bit of a change in a translation, but basically the precepts are the same, what the ordinees say is the same, and that language, hearing it over and over and over, it isn't stale. Each time, it has a fresh, alive quality, and this is because of what is being brought to that moment by each of the participants. And all the Buddhist ceremonies that I've ever been in, we're going to have another ceremony this afternoon, where the head monk will be entered, formally invited and enter as the head monk of the practice period, or the shuso, and this ceremony is, it's the same, with maybe a tiny bit of change maybe over the years, but each time, it has a vivid, fresh quality, it's a real ceremony, it's not kind of stale.

[07:36]

So I find that these Buddhist ceremonies never disappoint me, and I wanted to mention that this morning, I've been teaching the Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind class, which is Suzuki Roshi's book, and we saw a video this morning, a movie called Zen Mountain Center, which was made I've never seen it before, it was made I think in 1968 or 69, and it was footage of Suzuki Roshi talking with Zen Tatsu Baker, who was my ordination teacher, and David Chadwick, who has written the book, I can't remember the name, but anyway, about being a Zen failure, all these people that are in their 20s at Tassar, they're building the kitchen, see the kitchen, and there's Suzuki Roshi, just being Suzuki Roshi, they go into a cafe called the Buzz

[08:51]

Inn, and have donuts, and I don't know who's taking the footage, but just to see Suzuki Roshi walking and speaking, I have this very strong kind of family feeling, very strong, which is why I actually wanted to teach the class, because I've been feeling this very strongly that this person, not in name only, or because a ceremony says that I'm now part of this family, but I actually feel from the inside out that this is my family, this is my real grandfather or great-grandfather, my blood relationship, I mean, that's what it feels like, and reading Suzuki Roshi's words, and studying Zen Mami Gitterspine, and reading some of the things I've read many, many, many times, now it feels like this is

[09:53]

the family archives, and the movie today, as someone said in the class, it looked like a home movie, it was kind of a home movie. So, I have this great affectionate feeling arising in me, and I hope, or I guess, I question, how does one convey this? How does one transmit this or include everyone in this family feeling? Because this is a family where everybody can be part of this family, there's no exclusion. So how do you convey this? What is the way by which this family feeling is conveyed? The sixth ancestor had disciples, and two

[11:00]

of the disciples, one of them was Seigen Gyoshi, and Seigen Gyoshi, his style or his kind of way of being in the world was very gentle, and another disciple, his Dharma brother, was Nangaku, and his style was a little more dynamic maybe feeling, and so the two of them, although they were Dharma brothers, had different styles, and Seigen Gyoshi is in our lineage, and his disciple was Sekito Kisen Daisho, and this particular gentle way is sometimes, or the family way is, in Japanese, is sometimes referred to as Memitsu no Kafu, and Memitsu means, Mem means cotton, and Mitsu is secret, and No is a possessive, and Kafu means, the

[12:09]

Fu is wind, and Ka is like house or family, so the wind, this particular wind of this house or this family is secret cotton, cotton secret, and this is translated in English and that's the literal meaning, but the feeling is very careful attention to details, and very considerate. This particular way, this kind of family way is Soto Zen way, which is what our lineage comes from, Soto Zen, and the Rinzai Zen is that other lineage which has a little different style. Now, recently I was talking with someone who was saying how finally they're beginning, they've been at Zen Center for a long time, but they started practicing at a Rinzai temple maybe 25 years ago, and they were, as a new fresh student,

[13:15]

they were imprinted with the Rinzai way, which had a certain kind of drama, you know, in the morning, the first thing they would do instead of silent sitting or Zazen was chanting very, very vigorously, fast, and then it would kind of build to a certain crescendo of sound, and then at a certain point there would be like a shout, and the lights would be totally turned off, and then they would sit in Zazen, you know, it's a very dramatic and very wonderful, this person loved it, you know, it was great. So to come to Zen Center and have all this kind of slow kind of beginning to the day and the sound of the drum and bell, counting the hour, and then sitting and then walking, and this was, they didn't, they felt, this wasn't their way exactly, but over the years, after 20 years, even though they still miss it, they're appreciating this family way, and the wide feeling, and so what we first

[14:26]

come in contact with when we first start practicing really goes very, very deep, especially things like the chanting and the kind of wordless, well chanting has words, but if it's in Japanese, you don't know necessarily what it means, and it goes in a very deep part of the brain, I think, this is actually verified in various experiments and all, so I remember there was a chant, we still do it, the Dai Hishin Dorani, which is, a Dorani is like a spell, more like a mantra, and it's a long chant with a lot of repetition, and when I first came to Zen Center, there was a phrase where it went, Iki, Iki, and about, maybe at nine months or a year or so after I'd been practicing, it was changed to Yuki, Yuki, for some reason it had been mistranslated, or maybe there was a typo, and this is now, so that happened

[15:27]

in maybe 1971, every time I hear the Dai Hishin Dorani when it comes to Yuki, Yuki, I think Iki, Iki, and have to kind of switch it. Now, I don't know what that means exactly, but just to be imprinted that deeply with these sounds, and a way of chanting, or how one first expresses their practice with beginner's mind, goes very, very deep. This difference in style, the Memitsu no Kafu, and maybe Rinzai Zen, I don't know very much about Rinzai Zen, I've never practiced at a temple, but there was a student here who was ordained here, but had also practiced in Japan, and he sat next to me once and had his Okesa, when we come in in the morning, this is Memitsu no Kafu, you carry your Okesa at heart level, and when you come into the Zendo, you go up to eye level, you carry it

[16:31]

to your seat, you place it down in a particular spot, and I was seated, and this person came in, and they had their Okesa, and they kind of tossed it, kind of like a frisbee, in front of their seat, and I don't know exactly what I did, but I think I went, or something similar, and then afterwards thought, well, I should talk with this student, I think I was the Tantra at the time, in the city, and they really laid into me about that Soto way, and this is Rinzai way, and who are you to tell me about how to handle my robe, and so forth, so it was not a very, what shall I say, skillful, on my part, meeting somehow, but I remember thinking, oh, well, that's another family style, to kind of toss your Okesa, and I realized that this is, I have an affinity for this family style, this Memitsu no Kafu, very careful,

[17:33]

attention to detail, very considerate, and so how is this conveyed, and what's it all about, you know, the practice period is going on right now, and we do this orientation at the beginning, and we talk about all these details of handling yourself in the Zendo, taking your place, handling your Oryoki, your eating bowls, after the last lecture that I gave, I had talked about how to tie your Oryoki, the knot of your Oryoki, and not making it form it into a rabbit ear shape, and all, and afterwards, at the question and answer, someone said, why does it matter whether your Oryoki cloth is in a rabbit ear shape or not, you know, and that is a very good question, and all I could say was that it's the family way, this is the family style, and this kind of attention, the difficulty in conveying this

[18:40]

is that one may fall into kind of, not exactly prudery, but rigid, kind of strict, kind of fussy, it's got to be like this, and that's not the family style, that's like, that's way overboard, but then the other side is that any old way will do, and it's all one, and everybody's Buddha, and so we can do whatever we want, right, that's too far the other way, so this Memitsu no Kafu, the secret cotton, I picture this cotton just softly getting into all the areas of our life, leaving out nothing, nothing gets left out of this careful consideration, so then how do you talk about it if someone doesn't feel that family feeling, you know, it's, at first, when one first meets it, it's very unusual, may feel very unusual, so we say, for example, you know, please don't move your Zabuton,

[19:43]

that's the square mat, and your Zafu with your foot, you know, don't kind of kick your Zafu around to get it in the right place, or kick your Zabuton, you use both hands and straighten your cushion, or straighten your Zabuton, if it's on the floor, and you know, as I say it, that may not convey it, you may think, well, I don't get it, why not use your foot, it's, you know, much more convenient, but if you do it, you know, if you throw yourself into Memitsu no Kafu, and get blown around by the wind of this house, you will find out, you will feel something about actually making the effort to straighten the Zafu, or the Zabuton with both hands, you will have the, you will feel that yourself, nobody can tell you about it, so over and over and over again, and all the details of her life, this is talked

[20:52]

about, and Suzuki Roshi's teacher, Gyokujun Soan Daisho, there's a quote where he says, I will not acknowledge any monastery where there is lazy training, where there is dust, so this very strict, you might say strict feeling, about taking care of things, and if there's dust and things aren't washed and taken care of and placed, those things that need to go high are put high, those things that go low are low, that's a quote from the instructions to the head cook, if this isn't happening, then there's something missing, there's some understanding that's not being expressed, some wide understanding that gets expressed through these details, so Suzuki Roshi talks about over and over again in Zen

[21:56]

Mind, Beginner's Mind, and in any lecture that you might read in the windmill or somewhere else about big mind, and to me, what this Mimitsu no Kafu comes out of, it's not just someone kind of invention about how to keep the monastery kind of neat and clean, it's rooted or grows routes and bursts forth from the understanding of big mind, which is the mind that includes everything, the mind that within it are all sorts of many little things, are all part of big mind, this non-dual understanding, and so since everything is a part of big mind, and this mind is Buddha mind, then you take care of everything with this care, because it's not like some old thing over there that you can overlook, that's Buddha mind, so in

[23:03]

the instructions to the head cook, which is an oral teaching basically, although it's written down, but of how very thoroughly this attention to detail as an expression of understanding of Buddha mind, and then how this is expressed specifically through the job of being the head cook, and our head cook will be teaching a class on this this coming summer, so in this piece, Dogen Zenji, he's the head cook, and he's the head cook of the dayo show, our ancestor from Japan says, talks about taking care of the kitchen and the food and the utensils, and I just wanted to read a few of the things that he

[24:04]

has to say, put your whole attention into the work, seeing just what the situation calls for, do not be absent minded in your activities, nor so absorbed in one aspect of a matter that you fail to see its other aspects, clean the chopsticks, ladles, and all other utensils, handle them with equal care and awareness, putting everything back where it naturally belongs, keep your mind on your work, and do not throw things around carelessly, keep your eyes open, do not allow even one grain of rice to be lost, wash the rice thoroughly, put it in the pot, light the fire and cook it, there's an old saying that goes, see the pot as your own head, see the water as your life blood, maintain an attitude that tries

[25:08]

to build great temples from ordinary greens, that expounds the Buddha Dharma through the most trivial activity, handle even a single leaf of a green in such a way that it manifests the body of a Buddha, so these are very practical descriptions, clean the ladle, clean your utensils, don't throw things around carelessly, which you might hear in home ec class or Girl Scouts or something, but in this case it's the pot, the actual cooking pot, see that as your own head, see the water for the rice as your own life blood, and I don't think that's like a simile or something, or a metaphor, I think the understanding of big mind is that these objects that we handle in the so-called outer world are actually our own mind, that's

[26:16]

the understanding of big mind, and everything exists within that, so there isn't anything, how can anything be treated with less respect, each thing receives its own respect equally, the ladle and the chopsticks and the rice, not a grain of rice lost. So when you make an effort to discover what this is or live in this way, even before you understand or even before I understand what big mind is, let's say just to see Suzuki Roshi handle a teacup and set it down and for him to say, please don't carry, when you're busting dishes from the dining room into the dishroom, please don't carry too many things, just carry enough which shows respect for the objects that you're carrying. I mean, you can carry a big stack

[27:19]

and probably not drop it, but to give each thing respectful care and attention and very considerate feeling, and Oksan, Suzuki Roshi's wife, was very, showed this all the time, and how she handled, well, her own life, and the altar she took care of, and the flower arranging, and her own personal grooming and care for her body. This was not kind of selfish concern, this was taking care of the Buddha body, that was the feeling. So I, through the years, even before one truly understands or thoroughly has penetrated what is big mind, to try, to make an effort to try and take care of things in this way, to try and use

[28:21]

two hands to pick things up and set things down so they don't go clunk, and the joy in hearing the small noise that you make as you set it down and feeling, you know, the bottom of the teacup meet the tabletop just so, is, what is it? It's wonderful, it's joyful, you know, it's joyful mind, and it's joyful mind, it's parental mind or compassionate mind, and magnanimous mind, and these three minds, Dogen talks about as the minds that are, the Buddha mind is differentiated into these three kinds of mind, joyful mind, compassionate mind or parental mind, and magnanimous mind, or big mind, and the Tenzo, the head cook, and all the officers of the monastery are really, they need this kind of mind to do

[29:29]

their job well, to do it thoroughly and take care of the three treasures, which is the basic job of feeding the three treasures of Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, and taking care of Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha through taking care of the monastery or the practice place. So, I wanted to say a few things about these three minds, which I also spoke about in this memorial service yesterday, because my friend's father was a very unusual person, a very simple person and had exhibited joyful mind, compassionate mind, and magnanimous mind. The joyful mind is a mind that finds the ability to rejoice in basically anything, even adversity or difficult circumstances, painful circumstances, they're able to find some joy there, and a kind of buoyancy and lightness as you live your life, and he in particular had this kind of joy

[30:37]

and a wonderful sense of humor, and he also, even during this illness at the end, was able to make jokes about how thin he was getting and just these kinds of things, was very thoughtful and concerned with his caregivers, mostly his children and others, and found joy, and when his daughter said to him, you know, after living such a long life where he was so independent for all these years, it must be really hard to be so dependent on everyone now, and he said, well, I'm not dependent. He actually didn't feel that kind of emotional excruciating feeling of being so dependent on others. This was not a problem. There was just joy in this new activity of being people in this way where they had to lift him out of the bathtub, and that was just another, he was able to find and rejoice in that. So this is joyful mind.

[31:38]

And the second kind of mind is compassionate mind, ki-shin is the joyful mind, ki-shin in Japanese, and the compassionate mind or parental mind, mind of a parent, is ro-shin, and this mind is a mind that sees everyone or relates to everyone as a parent does for their child or their only child, this feeling of concern and care, watching over, protecting, even at the neglect perhaps of your own needs and circumstances sometimes, you always are looking out for what is needed here, what is the best thing, what is the best way to teach this and take care of. This kind of mind is needed for the head cook, and my friend's father was very much like this, very sort of with his children and grandchildren, even if he didn't understand kind of what their lives were like, or not like, but what they

[32:42]

were doing, he supported them as long as they were happy. And when he went to visit my friend who was at Tassajara, she was in the practice period and lived there for a couple of years, she said, well, what do you think, dad, you know, of me being at this monastery, Zen monastery and all? And he said, honey, you know, I don't know anything about this Buddhism stuff, but if you're happy, it's okay with me. And he went on then to say, you know, I don't really have religion, but what I do is I get up in the morning and every day is a good day. That's what he told her. And there's a koan called Yun Men's Every Day is a Good Day. So this, in this very simple way how he related to his life, and he also could then support other people to do their life thoroughly without any designs upon them, without wanting them to be a certain way or meddling or, you know, loving them if you can control, or he was,

[33:50]

he had dropped that. So this kind of mind is Roshan or compassionate mind, or this mind of a parent, what the parent has, a good parent. You know, we also have difficulties with our parents in our practice lives, and this reminded me of a story that someone told me about. They had been here practicing for a while, and they, this young man went out, he went out to eat with his mother who had come for a visit, and his parents are divorced. He had been with his dad. Anyway, so he was with his mother, and there was kind of an uncomfortable feeling over the years between them, and she said to him, knowing he was at Green Gulch and all practicing, so, and they were with friends, a lot of her friends, and, you know, out to dinner, and she said, so after spending all this money on your education, what are

[34:54]

you doing here? What are you learning at this place? And this person just like, you know, their mind just began racing, because they had been in a practice period where they had been studying karma, rebirth, Four Noble Truths, you know, and they thought, I can't tell her about karma, I can't say four, and what arose for her, for him to say to her was, I guess I'm learning how to get along with you. And it was a real showstopper. The mother was like, and all the friends said, hey, you know, that was great, and that's worth it, you know, to finally, finally learn how to get along with your nearest and dearest. There's, what more can one ask for? So, so the parental mind is the second, that's the second, that

[35:54]

second aspect of Buddha mind, and the third is magnanimous mind, or big mind, and the word magnanimous is, the root is magnus, or great, mag, meg, great, and also in Sanskrit that's maha, it's from the same root, it means great-souled, animus, as soul, from the root ane, to breathe, so magnanimous is great-souled, and it means noble of mind and heart, generous in forgiving, and above revenge, or resentment, that's magnanimous. I've never liked the word, I realized, until I studied more about it, just mag, just the word mag in the front, that part, I always heard it graded on my ears, but now that I know what it comes from, it sings, magnanimous,

[36:58]

great-souled, and above revenge and resentment. So this is a very big maha mind, and this is necessary, and this is that mind that sees everything within it as an unfolding of Buddha mind, and it has the quality of a mountain, stable, firm, and also of an ocean, deep and unfathomable and impartial, anything can go into the ocean, although the oceans are getting polluted, but the archetypal ocean, that we're not taking care of our oceans in this way, anything can go in, and be subsumed, and it doesn't bother the ocean, or like the mountain where it doesn't matter if there's rain and snow and wind, the mountain is there. This kind of mind, magnanimous mind, and I think my friend's father had this, really exhibited

[38:02]

this stable, impartial way in the world, accepting everyone for what they were. So when we practice mimitsu no kaphu, when we practice this very, very careful attention and consideration for the objects of the world, the so-called objects, which are really just a way of talking about the big mind that includes the many and the one, and their relationship together, one might come to realize kishin, roshin, and daishin, magnanimous mind, actually the taking care of those things, and this is zazen mind, too. Taking care in this way is the

[39:07]

expression of this big mind. This minister who sang for the ceremony, at the end he sang one song which I love very much, it's a gospel song called Take My Hand, Precious Lord, and it's a very, the words are I'm weary and I'm tired, and just take my hand, and it was written, some of you may know, by a man who had lost his wife and child in childbirth, and he was at the depths of despair, and out of that this song came, which was Take My Hand, Precious Lord, lead me home. And he sang that in the service yesterday, and I've always, you know, I have a kind of longing for someone often to take my hand and lead me home, and Uchiyama

[40:13]

Roshi, who in this book Refining Your Life does the commentary on Dogen's instructions to the head cook, and I came across this this morning, where he says the reason we value this instructions to the head cook so highly is because in it Dogen Zenji takes his disciples by the hand and teaches them about everyday religious life. So my feeling is that these teachings from the Buddhas and ancestors of Mimitsu no Kafu, taking care of things, this is a way that the Buddhas and ancestors actually take our hands, you know, take our hands and lead us home, or lead us into how it is that we bring our religious life and our deepest,

[41:15]

what's most important to us, and our deepest intention, how we bring that into our everyday activities and express it for the benefit of everyone. This is someone taking your hand and leading you home. So to me it's not like going to heaven, you know, some other place. It's our very own family way. Thank you very much. Yes, Salvi? I'd like to know if chanting the Dharani, I've been doing that, and I want to know

[42:25]

if it's important to understand what you're chanting or not. I really don't know what I'm chanting, but I got the feeling that just placing your focus in the words and just chanting them, and sometimes I feel that since it's something that I don't know I have to focus more and that is better for me. I don't know, I'd like to get some insight from you on that. Yes, well the Dharanis are... We actually have translated that, Daya Shindhirani, and I think it might even be posted, it's the Dharani of Great Compassion, but when you read it it's like, really? I think that's the one that talks about hail, hail, and this and that, and it's like... But anyway, to know that it's the Dharani of Great Compassion,

[43:25]

so you have some feeling, well this is a... The other translation for Dharani is spell, a spell, and I think the word spell has to do with the fact that the words themselves are kind of untranslatable, so you just... The sound gets passed from India to China and Japan, it got changed, but it didn't get translated, it just got transliterated I guess, is that what it would be? So to have that feeling that it's... To know what the name of it is, the Dharani of Great Compassion, it's done for memorial services, it's done at various times, like when a person has died and you're moving them from the deathbed to the... Like transporting them to the funeral home or something where you actually move the body, which can be a very emotionally wrenching time for the family and all, that's chanted at that time, and so it's... So to actually know what the translation is, is not

[44:30]

necessarily a help. To be totally present with your chanting is... I found, especially with that one, with the Dharani, it's more important than knowing what it says, so... And the kind of energy, and that one's done with the mokugyo, with the beat, so I don't know if you do that at home, but you can get these little... Mokugyos are those little wooden drums, carved drums, you can get them and do your own sound effect, but I think what you said, Salvi, of just being... You don't know what it means, so you're even more present with just the breath and the formation of the syllables through your mouth, and just very present, a lot of awareness there, maybe more so than if you knew what you were saying and the meaning got a kind of... You know, one might say, oh, I know what that means, or I've said that before, and you kind of even forget you're saying it.

[45:32]

So, I think often the power in the Dharanis is the not knowing, but putting all your effort into it. Actually, it's the same with all the chants, whether they're in English or Japanese, that spirit, but it's harder with the English ones. You get kind of drowsy sometimes. In fact, Suzuki Roshi in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, in the beginning, opening, introduction part, when he talks about Beginner's Mind, he actually brings up this fact, you know, if you chant the Heart Sutra, the first time you chant it, it might be a very good recitation, very full of awareness and all, and then the more you chant it, the more you chant it, thirty, four, five hundred times, you lose that Beginner's Mind feeling. So, maybe with the Dharani, although once you get to memorize it, you can fall into that, too. Thank you. Can everybody here in the back, because there's chairs up here, and Zafus, and if you want

[46:38]

to come closer, it's up to you, but there's room up here, one in the front, one over here. Yes? As part of your talk, you were told of your friend's father, who said, you know, as long as you're happy, this is fine. But what if there's a sense with an adult child that what they're doing is not making them happy, or not happy as a general word, but content in those words. And there's a part of me that says what seems important is of course to support them, but I wonder if that's it. I guess there's a part of me that wonders, is there both an obligation as a parent, but also is there a way out of compassion

[47:44]

to comment, but to comment would be a judgment, or anyway, something like that. Did everyone hear what Sala was saying? Could you hear in the back? Yes? No? No, okay. Sala was bringing up the story that I mentioned in lecture about the father who, although he didn't understand exactly what his daughter was doing, was able to say, honey, if it makes you happy, it's okay with me, that kind of mind. But Sala was bringing up what if with an adult child you see them living a life or doing something that is not making them happy, that maybe is unwholesome, or how do you, in the spirit of completely supporting them, how do you bring it up or say something to them without judging or breaking the relationship? I'm kind of adding my, is that, yeah. Well, I think that's, I imagine a number of people

[48:48]

in the room are maybe also struggling with that or have struggled with that. How do you, in the face of someone who is hurting themselves or hurting others and themselves, usually happens together, what do you say and how do you say it and not drop a compassionate mind or how is that? You know, we've been talking about the Eightfold Noble Path and one of the folds of the Eight is Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Liveliness, Right Effort and Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration, and the one we were talking about was Right Speech, and part of Right Speech is not lying. So we had a long discussion on Wednesday Night Dharma Talk about what it is to lie, and an example was brought up about a daughter and so forth. So how do you say to your child without lying what you need

[49:55]

to say and be true to yourself, which is being true to them also, and say it in such a way that they can hear it, that it's a benefit to them and the time and place are right. The Buddha spoke when four conditions were present. One is that what they said was true, what they said was a benefit to the person, and that the time was right and the place right. So you could feel like something was very true, but if you said it, it would not benefit them, it would hurt them maybe, or it's true and it would benefit them but the time isn't right, they're not able to hear it right now, or the places. So all four. So I feel like to speak the truth or to not lie, or to have Right Speech with someone who is doing something harmful to self or others, how do you, I mean this is the question,

[51:03]

right, how do you say it or have an action that expresses that to try and help them? Or not even to try and help them, that's true and a benefit that you see. And what stops us, and you know very well because I've learned this from you, that things get in the way of our acting compassionately, our own fear of being turned on or being cut off or that will get in the way, if we have self-concern, that will get in the way of speaking truthfully sometimes, right. So I don't do that. Yes, I mean it gives me a focus, yes. Okay, thank you. Yes? Taking that one step further, what if you know that what you're saying is true and you think it's the right path of course, but if you have very little way of assessing whether it would lead to anything like this?

[52:04]

Let's see, did you say you have, it's true, the time and place seems right, but whether or not it's a benefit, you feel like you have no sense at all and have no way to gauge. Well, I guess you have to, if you really think it might be not beneficial, like that's even, you know, then maybe you would, if it's 50-50, maybe you would refrain. If you feel like I don't know, but this is my best shot, I feel like this is benefit. If someone said this to me, I mean you use all your faculties, you know, if someone said this to me at a time like this, I might find it beneficial or whatever, and you just give it a try, you know. You might get instant, you know, your karmic act or that may have instant maturity, you know, where the person immediately tells you how unbeneficial that was, you know, that

[53:13]

might happen, but if your intention is to benefit and in all, with everything you could muster, that's what you tried and it was off, I still think the person would feel that, you know, that intention would also be there in the mix somehow. And that happens, somebody does make a mistake with you or treats out of good intentions, real good intentions, but it was off, they were off, and you can feel that, you know. So I guess we never really know, I think the proof of the benefit is in the pudding, you know, but there are certain things traditionally that we know are not of benefit, you know, and they're like in this right speech, the kind of speech that is not right speech is harsh speech, angry speech, that kind of thing, we know. I mean, I suppose at a certain moment, the right exact

[54:15]

time you could use harsh speech, but that's not true harsh speech, that's a loud voice that awakens somebody, you know, like the Zen stories where the guy shouts so loud that the monk was deaf for three days, you know, but he was awakened, you know. So would that be harsh? Well, if you're yelling out of anger, that would be harsh. If it's what arises as the exact right expression of your understanding of suchness, you can't call it harsh. So that to think this is beneficial, I think, is too much. I know this is beneficial, you know, and kind of have a set view on that. You give it your best, and then you see, and then you watch very carefully and clearly observe what happens, you know, what's the next moment like. Hi. A friend of mine said something to me the other day, which my initial reaction was,

[55:23]

what? You know, I didn't like what he said, but I didn't say anything to him. What I try to do, I just want you to get your ideas done and practice how to handle this, because it always comes up in people like me. If someone says something, and what I try to do is sit with it and see where my reaction is coming from, and I see clearly where it's coming from when I was a kid, and I can feel it inside, you know, that same feeling I felt probably when I was 10 years old, still there, when this reaction occurred. So what I've been doing is just witnessing it. And when it comes up, I just watch it and it just disappears, eventually. And it might pop up again the next day in my life. So I'm contemplating

[56:27]

saying something to this person, because he wasn't, for example, too mindful of my feeling for what he said. So, but this is the way I feel. He was just doing it himself. So just what are your thoughts? How would you handle something like this? Uh-huh. Did everybody... Whoops. Did everybody hear what Martin was saying? Can you all hear each other good? I mean, Will? Will, I think when you said he, you know, to speak with him about it... Let me just add one thing. In the past, if I expressed myself,

[57:29]

it disappears immediately. Like, just discharge that feeling and just say something right Dump it or compost it? What? Dump it or compost it? Dump it. Dump it? I don't want to dump it. I don't like what you said. Yeah. Well, it sounds like with this fellow, it was a friend of yours? Yeah. Something hurt there. He said something and you had this... And instead of just discharging like, hey, what's the meaning of that or whatever, you watched

[58:32]

it rather than just discharging the feeling. And it connected up with a lot of old feelings of your... Feelings that were familiar from a long time ago and you didn't... And it was painful, unpleasant feelings due to hearing something, right? And then thinking. So all this is coming up, this kind of... And what you described was just, to me, was just practicing with it. You watched it, you didn't act fast, you just saw its connection in different ways emotionally and you let it arise and fall and maybe arise again and maybe weakened, but kind of... But now you're left with, what about my relationship with this fellow? Because there's some lingering, you said harboring, you're kind of... It hurt. So you're feeling there's something left undone, a little unfinished business with him or her? Yeah, possibly. So when you said he was maybe a little unmindful to say such a thing, you said he was just expressing

[59:43]

himself. And I think there is... Right in there, to me, is the most important point, because that can be used as an excuse for just about anything. Look, I was just expressing myself, I mean, what's the problem? And for the worst of... I mean, abuse and all sorts of things, that it's like, well, I was just expressing myself. But I think in terms of right speech and in Buddhist practice, to fully express, just express yourself, has to include all sides of yourself, the side that has vowed not to harm or... I mean, I don't know about this friend, but a full realization of your human life is to take care of beings, live in the world without harming others. That's how you live joyfully and happily. That's the true expression of... That's just expressing yourself. So if what you say doesn't include that, isn't big enough to include that, is a little bit too narrow, then I don't

[60:48]

buy that. That's kind of a slang way of saying that, but I can't just go along with that. Someone says, well, I'm just expressing myself. What about your full self? What about this other side that wants to take care of others and doesn't want to hurt? Was that expressed there or did that get left out? So when you talk with this person, if you decide to... The other thing is that somebody like that, when you see all your reactions that come up, they're showing you something. In some ways, they're like a bodhisattva who, out of compassion for beings, will say something that allows you to develop more thoroughly your patience and aspects of yourself that never get developed because everybody else is so nice to you. So this person, in the guise of a kind of cranky friend, will speak to you that way. Thinking in this way, that person is worth nine bows because you get

[61:52]

a chance to watch... I mean, this is very true. Somebody commented after the lecture that I say very a lot, and I have to listen to the tape and hear how many times I'll count. I just heard it this time. So to live mostly surrounded by people who take care of you, and then you get a fellow or a woman, man, friend who really, you can't believe what they're saying to you. Where did that come from? That's your chance to... You only work on patience in relation to anger. Patience doesn't arise when you don't need it. So this person, you need it in terms of anger. If you feel angry and like you're harboring ill will, that's when your patience has to be really developed. So this person is helping you do that. This is a bodhisattva. Somebody might say, Oh, come on. But I've found that that is a marvelous way to actually accept what's

[63:00]

coming your way without kind of striking out and blaming other people for all the mean things they're saying. To actually use that as a chance to develop your own, all the virtues, all the paramitas, all the perfections. So I heard a big sigh over there. Yes? I was wondering if you would talk to someone about one of the difficulties that I've had. I've kind of seen my feelings about Buddhism and my outside life. Somehow they feel very different. I was wondering, kind of in combination with that, if you could comment a little bit on ego. One of the difficulties that I find is knowing how I feel without learning about Buddhism and how I feel when I meditate and what that is in my life. But people who are

[64:05]

close to me that don't understand that thought, trying to describe that or trying to let them understand it, but not feeling like I have to just do all of the other things and explain to them. Maybe they just won't understand that feeling about it. I was talking with someone recently and he was an architect. He was going to make this big building after some Buddhist saying or something like that and he talked to all his friends about it. I really have a hard time with that. I don't know whether it's ego or not, but to me it's a very special part of me. To see someone believe in what he does. I'm a Buddhist and I know that I just want to get ahead of these people. It's okay. I don't really know how to just walk away and say that's okay or whatever. I just feel like a little bit...

[65:15]

Did you hear the question? Yes? Okay. How long have you been practicing? About a year and a half. Okay. Yeah. Well, I know that when we first come in contact with practice and the teachings, the Dharma, it is so sweet and so precious. Finally you're being met in a part of you that's never been met before and it is so important. You feel like you have to protect it. It doesn't reside here. I think it does need to be protected.

[66:33]

I think baby Bodhisattvas or people who are just awakening to the practice or the Dharma beginning to rain on them the sweet dew. It has a delicacy to it. You know the saying pearls before swine? You have these pearls, these precious pearls that are growing in you. The pearls, they get layer after layer of nacre, I think is that, and it's one layer. I don't know how thin it is, just more and more and more they're growing, the pearls. And then to take them kind of, not that your friends are swine particularly, but you're not going to just let it out for anybody at any time. You want, oh yeah, I'll tell you

[67:37]

about what I'm doing because it will destroy. It's too early. When people give Dharma talks, the first time they give a formal Dharma talk, it's when they're Shuso. We're having this ceremony this afternoon where the person will enter as the Shuso and it's the first time. They may have given a little introductory talk to a small group or something, but it's the first time they give a Dharma talk. And they've been ordained and been practicing for at least five years or more very thoroughly and done a lot of practice. And at that point then, the pearls, they put them out in an appropriate place for them to be appreciated where other people like pearls or are interested in pearls or are there because they want to know about the pearls. But for somebody who has no interest whatsoever, this is one instance.

[68:38]

And it's just out of curiosity, kind of, what are you up to? What did you do last week? Well, I sat in a Zen dojo all day. I remember going home after being at Zen Center, going back to Minnesota and telling my best friend about orioke practice, which is the bowls and telling her about these claws and then you do this. She didn't get it. Besides that, she thought I was kind of losing it, I think. But it was so important to me. And then I realized, I can't just, this is not kind of idle chatter. This is too important to me to kind of put it out there and have it be misunderstood or criticized or whatever. It was too soon. And my dad, you know, well, what about nirvana? It was like, I didn't even know, I couldn't say anything about nirvana. But after that, it was, I remember trying to say to him, I

[69:43]

am one with this tree. I was going on about being one with the tree and he said, you are not one with the tree. The tree is the tree and you are you. And what are you talking about? And it was like, I had nothing to say, you know. Oh, it was terrible, it was excruciating. But I felt like, you know, one with the tree, I kind of had some intuitive sense. But as soon as it got out there in the world, it was, oh, it was terrible. So, you know, that's why your Dharma buddies are really important because they're people who kind of enter the monastery around the same time you do or in a practice period with you or class with you, you know, it's like you feel like these are people who are, you're on the path together, you know. So this fellow, the architect who wants to name the building after him, you know, people take Zen, there's Zen in the art of, you name it, you know. And there's this commercial, did you see it? It was in the New Yorker, it was the picture of this woman drinking this glass, she had just been bicycling and she had her biking shorts on and she was drinking this glass of grapefruit juice and it says, an actual

[70:49]

picture of a woman in nirvana. And she was drinking down her juice, you know. So, you know, advertising the media can take these things, the teachings that we find so helpful and like life-saving, like it's a matter of life and death that we take up the teachings and practice and then to kind of have it on a billboard, you know. So, I don't, to me it's not a matter of ego or not ego, it's a matter of knowing the preciousness of it for you and it can exist kind of in the, just like the plants that are in the greenhouse, they need in that special environment of warmth and then when they're ready and strong enough and their roots have developed, then we take them out. But they don't go into the ground right away, they go into like the plastic house where they're a little bit more exposed to the wind and the elements and the temperatures and then they come out and they're out of

[71:50]

the plastic house and then they're hardened off, that's the term, where their roots get stronger and then they go into the ground and some of them really will have a hard time in the ground but then they strengthen. So, you have to take care of it like that. So, I don't know what you can do about your acrobat, what is he going to name it? I didn't remember. He just went off and said that the reason why he was going to name it was just because he felt like in building it, or having it built, it went wrong. I don't really know a lot about it, but he was just telling people about it. Well, each person has their own relationship to the teachings. But anyway, for you, just take care of yourself. You know, my dad, actually this past year, had two strokes and after the stroke,

[73:00]

he actually finally, this is now 25 years, at least, maybe 30 years since 1968, yeah, almost 30 years, and he said, he asked me about my practice, this is the first time since that earlier time, he said, so what is it about Zen or something like that? And he actually wanted to hear. So, I don't know what I told him, but I actually felt he was asking because he really wondered, after all this time, how was it that I lived my life or something. So, I think I told him about the Buddha's life, and that story of Buddha's enlightenment, and seeing the old person and the sick person and the dead person, you know, are you familiar with that story? And then seeing the monk, or not a monk, but the religious person sitting, and that was the story I told him.

[74:01]

And I felt like he actually could hear it or something. I don't know if I talk with him about nirvana and the tree anymore. I'm interested in the stuff about soft cotton and family, that helps explain a lot of things. I mean, a little bit with the previous question, you say, early practice is a lot like a young seedling, a young sapling that needs to be protected, but I don't even know how to phrase this question, what about people who are heightened? Yes, you want to be surrounded by your son, yes, but what about people who are healed? That's a good question. Because there are people who are using, can use, meditation and the forms of the practice as an escape from what they need to face and meet in their life. And people can do that for a certain length of time,

[75:04]

and you can't tell, but at a certain time, if they're here long enough, because of really the forms of, for example, if you're living in a practice place at Zen Center, everybody has to have a practice leader that they see regularly, and we ask you to do certain things, follow the schedule, go to Zazen, and so at a certain point, if you're working with someone, they're going to feel like something is not congruent here, or there's trouble that arises between them and other people, or they're so attached to the forms that when the forms are not necessary, they can't drop them, like going to a party and standing around in shashu, which happens, you know, or feeling like you can't even have any social conversation, so you always sit at the silent table. Well, people will notice that, people will get to know you,

[76:08]

and then they'll say, What's going on? What about this? And in this Refining Your Life, this book that I was... has the Tenzo instructions to the head cook in the front and the commentary in the back, Uchiyama Roshi, who did the commentary, talks about six forms of practicing Zen, which he'll kick people out of his monastery if they're doing them, and let's see if I can remember some of them anyway. One is where you're practicing because you're going to get a good meal, I mean, because you're going to be fed, basically, housed and fed, and food is very good, and green goach is very beautiful, and it's a beautiful place to live, and, you know, I think I might as well stay here for the rest of my life. That is, if he picks up on that in his monastery, they're out. Another one is like a lot of competitive, you know, my practice is better than your practice, and I can sit longer than you, and I've done more sessions than you, and this kind of judging and that kind of spirit, you know, out.

[77:14]

Let's see, what are the other ones? One is out of a lot of fear, fear of, like, meeting your life, and dealing with that which you need to deal with, and fear of that, you know, financial things, family things. Anyway, so there's a lot of reasons that people can practice that are not for the sake of Buddha Dharma, you know, and we need help sometimes. We may be blind to that. So our friends can help us. You may feel like you're not thriving. This is not working for you, you know. It's really time to kind of go on with your life. Do something you love. It's obvious you don't love this, you know. So to be able to honestly say that to someone, it gets very hard. The longer someone's here, the more friends they have, the more associates, the more they're appreciated for who they are,

[78:15]

and yet this may... Living in a practice place is not for everybody, really. Living in residential practice is a very particular thing, and to do it for a time is great, but it's not for everybody for years and years. So I think you're right. Hiding out is something that we have to... People in the practice leader positions and so forth have to be very honest about and very strict about because it's not for the person's benefit to escape in that way, and their whole life will go by, and what happens is they get very angry at Zen Center for letting them do that, you know. Why didn't anybody help me? We found this... They just wanted me because I was a good mechanic for all those years. It's hard to get a good mechanic around Gringotts, you know, and people feel used, you know, even though they contributed too. So it's a very important point and something we have to always be looking at, you know, very honestly.

[79:20]

Yes? Following that, I'm not inside the practice, but I'm outside, and I feel all these things too. At a time I will feel competition as I'm doing it live. All of these things, and it just seems to me that the more I stay with it, the more I get. What do you get? I mean, how would you describe that to people or express that? The more I hear, how to stay with it, and the more that it's taught to me, the more times I hear it, the more it goes in, and the more I understand it. Yes. I mean, when I first came here, it felt like it was Chinese. Yes, like a foreign language kind of. I couldn't understand it.

[80:26]

And now I can, but now I can't understand it at all, but I understand it the more I stay in it. So the people that come and live here, if they stayed in here, would they learn to love it? You're talking about escaping. I do that escaping too. Well, what you were saying at the beginning, and this was the same with me, when I first heard Suzuki Roshi give a talk, he was speaking in English, but I couldn't understand a word he said. And everybody was sitting, this was at Japantown, they were all sitting in Zazen, listening to him, and I knew this was this Japanese Zen master, and that this was really something, and I was straining to understand. I couldn't understand what he was saying. It's like the words didn't come together in my mind in some way. So I think you're right, saying that you thought it was Chinese when you first...

[81:28]

So I think that's true. We first hear the teaching and it's like you don't get it, and then slowly, slowly... And this happens for me too. It's like you've heard it, and you've heard it over and over and over, and then it's like, oh yeah, oh yeah. Over the years, more and more, it kind of seeps in. It's slow. This practice has a kind of slow pace. It's forever, so you might as well... What? What's the hurry? What's the hurry, yeah. And this thing about escaping, I think people do have a love for the Dharma or feel like this is their spiritual home, but the form of residential practice may not be, not... What shall I say? Some people have a tendency to go into, to use the practice to go into bliss states or something like that, which doesn't have very much to do with Buddhism.

[82:29]

It's like checking out into some kind of heavenly realm, and it doesn't help one develop their compassionate mind, and joyful mind, and magnanimous mind. It's like checking out. And some people have a tendency, are able to do this, other people don't, but that's a kind of escape, using the practice in a way that's not a benefit. Over the years, yes, I think people, the Dharma is sweet in the beginning, sweet in the middle, and sweet in the end, they say. So you hear it, and you feel like this is the sweet Dharma. It comes in the ears, and you feel its sweetness. I do, when I hear people speak or read. And yet, this may not, you may be not engaging your life in it

[83:33]

in the best possible way. Did I go on and on there too long? Yes? Thank you. I was thinking about page 52 in the Book of Serenity. We were talking about that in regards to what Martin was talking about. And I was thinking, I hate that about life, there always seems to be a creeping around ready to smack you. It's a living tool to wake you up a little bit. And I had an experience with that. It's the same kind of thing where I wanted something, and what I wanted was probably in conflict with what my bigger purpose was in the situation. And I kind of got into a resentment mode about it for a while. And as I was going along, I suddenly realized,

[84:34]

well, how can I make this a useful situation? Which I felt very positive, I think just emerged in my mind. And I thought, well, exactly that. It's this kind of thing, just like this thing. It's like my self-will, this idea about getting something I want, as opposed to just simply embarking on this. Maybe putting on a pair of glasses to see things a certain way that you're not familiar with my way of doing things. Anyway, it's funny how the resentment kind of faded at that point. I'm being purposefully a little vague. You don't want to get too detailed with what it's all about. But I can relate to that.

[85:35]

Certainly what Mark was saying really helped me kind of crystallize some usefulness to that. Basically, because it was so vague in some way. Uh-huh, uh-huh. You know, I just wanted to clarify this thing about the nine vows to the person who yells at you. Our experience of our life is our experience of our life. So when I say this is a bodhisattva who has come to teach you, you know, to practice patience and all the virtues and so forth, this is your, as I'm describing it, that's how you can use whatever comes. It's all part of big mind, like I was talking about. It's all within big mind. It's all Buddhadharma that's coming. So how are you going to use it in the best way? Now, that is not to say that this person, whoever they may be,

[86:36]

who is really helping you to develop patience, you are developing that patience, but they may need to, especially if there's a major problem with this person, you have to deal with that and work it out and talk and go to therapy and do all the stuff. But that's not to minimize the fact that they're coming in that mode is the bodhisattva of great compassion arising so you can really make effort in this way, really. But it doesn't mean that they are thinking in their mind. You don't know what they're thinking in their mind. They're just doing what they're doing. It's how you meet that. Does that clarify? I can't change the other person, but it doesn't change the fact that I'm on set.

[88:06]

That's right. So I have to do something. It's all an inside job. That's a great way to describe it. It's an inside job. So that koan where the person comes to the Zen Master and he says, he asks him, What is this that thus comes? And he goes away and then eight years later, after pondering this, he comes back and says, Now I understand how you taught me when I first came here. What is it that thus comes? What is it that thus comes is this mind, is this big mind that allows whatever it is that's coming your way where you can practice with it thoroughly with every part of you. And the question of what is this that thus comes as the person is yelling at you or whatever. What is this? And you can see, don't leave out the thing you had just said a minute ago

[89:09]

and your emotional state and all of it is all there and then you get this thing that meets you. So what is it that thus comes? Mind. To bear that in mind allows everything, whatever happens, to be turned, you know, Buddhadharma turning. You turn Buddhadharma. Yeah, but the person themselves, you know, may need a lot of help, right? Have we all talked about, oh yes, Tim. You talked a little bit about our family way and I think you expressed some feelings about the wonderfulness of it and I feel it's yours also. But I wonder about those feelings that our family way is wonderful

[90:15]

as opposed to, as some of you might say, a family way that's a family way. And how our family way is wonderful kind of creates the other family way that we have a wonderful way that's wonderful or some of them are downright wrong. Some of them, you know, think that they don't know our family way. It's too bad. How does that positive emotion come up? Can you talk about creating all those other negative emotions on the other side? Well, I think there is a danger there. You know, there's like blood feuds, right? I mean, the most painful of difficulties that people have are family problems, right? Ireland and the Middle East. And also, you know, there are stories of armed Zen monks, you know,

[91:20]

or armed monks and other forms of Buddhism wanting to kick the other ones out. There is that danger, I think. So the question is, how can the experience of the wonderfulness of this teaching that's been handed down by a particular group of people down to us, you know, how can we not make that just one more way of separating ourselves or finding pride or we're better than you. So... ... I, you know, I'm just pondering it here. I feel like the, you know, that the answer is in the teaching,

[92:25]

somehow it's in the family way. Somehow, if the family way is...

[92:28]

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