I want to thank you people who have told me that you might be missing a class, and the people who aren't here tonight, a number of them told me that they weren't going to be here tonight. So I appreciate you letting me know, thank you. And I also appreciate your response to the invitation to write poems, appreciate your many poems that have come. And I wonder if anybody wants to read any here tonight. Joanne, would you close the door?

[01:40]

Open the door. Any other poems to be recited? I have a teacher who wants to help me peck out of my shell. This feels like a miracle. How did I get so lucky?

[02:41]

I want to please my teacher by pecking at just the right time and in just the right way. This complicates things. In fact, suddenly it seems that my shell and I are sitting in a giant table of weeds. I should have anticipated this. I think I'll sit here for a while. I think I'll put my ear up to the edge of the shell and listen to the weeds blowing them in. Maybe those weeds helped make this shell of mine. Actually, I think they helped make me and my teacher too. Maybe I can feel their cool embrace in here, breathe in their perfume of green-growing life. To peck or not to peck, that is the question. Yes, of course I'll peck, but for now maybe I can just breathe. This seems like a fine place for that. I think I hear my teacher rustling around out there in the tall grasses. I think he's singing and breathing, but who knows?

[03:43]

I have a little big poem called Mock. Deep in the weeds, stuck in the muck, are the lotus roots. Working hard, she yearns for someone to show her how to dance. She doesn't see her partner waiting, hand outstretched. In yoga class, I wonder, what is the point of yoga?

[05:14]

In yoga class, I wonder, what is the point of yoga? Ten fingertips, reach and just grab. Here's a story about enlightenment, and it's about pecking and tapping. I just want to mention that before this story occurred, enlightenment was living.

[06:18]

Then during this story, enlightenment was living. And after this story, enlightenment is living. Even though during the story they say, so-and-so had an awakening, there was awakening before that awakening. But still they say, which you'll hear, and they don't mention that the teacher is awakening. They mention the student having awakening. So there was a teacher named Nan Yuan in China, and he said to his group, you grasp the idea of simultaneous pecking and tapping,

[07:24]

but you lack the function of simultaneous pecking and tapping. You grasp the idea of simultaneous pecking and tapping, but you lack the function of simultaneous pecking and tapping. And a monk came forward and said, what is the function of simultaneous pecking and tapping? And Nan Yuan said, a true adept has no need of pecking and tapping. The moment there's pecking and tapping, the function is lost. The monk said, I'm still in doubt.

[08:35]

Nan Yuan said, what are you in doubt about? And then the monk said, literally, lost. But some Zen people say, literally, he meant the teacher was lost. So they translate it as, you lost it. And this teacher's in the Linji school, so he struck the monk with his stick. He struck the monk with his stick, and it says, the monk did not concur. And so Nan Yuan drove him out, drove him away.

[09:45]

And the monk went to another important temple, which was founded by the teacher Yunmen. It doesn't say in the story whether Yunmen was alive at that time. But anyway, this monk went to Yunmen's temple, and he was talking with another monk, not Yunmen. And he told him about the conversation that you just heard. And the monk said to him, did Nan Yuan break his stick? I wonder, did he break his stick? Which is a Zen phrase for, did he give his compassion completely? Hearing these words, the monk had a clear, profound understanding.

[10:48]

And then he went back to Nan Yuan's temple. However, by the time he arrived, Nan Yuan had passed away. So he paid his respects to Nan Yuan's successor, Feng Shui. And after paying his respects, Feng Shui said to the monk, aren't you the monk who was here a while ago and asked our late teacher about simultaneous pecking and tapping? And the monk said, yes. And Feng Shui said, at that time, what was your understanding? And the monk said, it was as if I was walking in the dim light of a lamp.

[12:05]

And Feng Shui said, you understand. It's a complicated story. Maybe you didn't get it all, but I'll go over it again. The teacher says, you understand the idea or you grasp the idea of pecking and tapping, but you lack the function of it. The function of simultaneous pecking and tapping. So in a sense that maybe you can understand that it is different to grasp the idea of some teaching

[13:11]

and to actually have the function of that teaching. So he's saying, you understand the idea, but you lack the actual function. So then the monk asks, what is the function? Now, at the moment of asking what the function is, might that be the function? It could be tapping. And there could also be simultaneous with that tapping. No, I think the monk is pecking. We usually say the monk is pecking. So he could be pecking and the teacher could be tapping. Or the teacher could be pecking when he's made that statement.

[14:22]

But more I think the teacher was tapping the assembly. Say, how are you guys? Tap, and then the monk comes forward and pecks with the question. What is the function? Couldn't the teacher be not yet tapping if the teacher is saying you don't understand the function? If the teacher is saying you don't understand it, then they're not ready to peck. Would the teacher tap before there was any pecking? Maybe. Maybe. Well, that's possible,

[15:24]

but I would suggest that, yeah, I guess if the tapping is really, really gentle, then maybe it'd be all right. But you've got to be careful. If you tap, you might weaken the eggshell by tapping if you don't tap very gently. And this statement sounded not so gentle, saying you understand the idea, but you don't have the function. It's kind of strong. Critical. Kind of, yeah, critical. So the monks may have done something that made the teacher feel invited to tap in that form. Then, yeah, the monk seems to be all right.

[16:28]

This one particular monk seems to be doing okay. He's able to come back and peck. What's the function? And then the teacher says, again, it's kind of another pretty intense peck or tap. He brings this thing up about pecking and tapping, and then he says that a true adept has no use for pecking and tapping. As soon as there's pecking and tapping, the function's lost. So we're back where we started? Back where we started? Yeah, well, we haven't lost where we started, but, yeah, where we started,

[17:29]

I'd say was included in that the teacher bringing up this thing called pecking and tapping and acting like, you know, you guys got it, but you don't have the function. And then he's saying, as soon as there's pecking and tapping, you lose the function. So it's kind of an enhancement of the earlier situation that he's saying, well, we got the pecking and tapping, but as soon as you have pecking and tapping, you lose the function of it. Okay? No, if you're adept, you don't need it. However, if you do have pecking and tapping, so maybe the adepts don't have pecking and tapping. They don't need it, and they don't have it. Or maybe they don't need it,

[18:30]

but even though they don't need it, they use it. And when they use it, they lose the function. And maybe the adepts who don't need the pecking and tapping use the pecking and tapping and lose the function. And they do that because they're going into the weeds. And then the monk says, after he says, they don't need it, and as soon as they have it, as soon as there is this, they lose the function. And then the monk says, I don't understand. Yes? If an adept heard pecking coming from inside a shell, wouldn't they want to tap? If an adept heard pecking coming from inside a shell, wouldn't they want to tap?

[19:36]

Well, they might. Yeah. [...] So they might lose the function to help the other person, to help the chick. And also know that they lost the function for the sake of helping that person not need the pecking, but then they also would use the pecking, the tapping in response to the pecking. Yeah. Being adept is the function of pecking and tapping. And when you're adept at it, you don't need it. However, when you're adept at the thing and you don't need it,

[20:37]

you still might use it. So that's one of the, yeah, one of the patterns in Buddhism is that the Buddha uses something like pecking and tapping, realizes the function and doesn't have pecking and tapping anymore. Doesn't need it anymore. However, for the sake of the next generation, the next generation picks up pecking and tapping. And also, the Buddha likes to do pecking and tapping even though the Buddha doesn't need it. He likes it, so he does it even though he doesn't need it. Because it wouldn't be appropriate for the Buddha to be, have pecking and tapping and be stuck in it. He shouldn't be attached to it. But the Buddha used it to give it up and become adept. And by the way,

[21:42]

the story goes on, but we can wait for a while. Yes? Students and teachers are always pecking and tapping and that sometimes they just notice it and then when they notice it and try to start using it for something then it stops being pecking and tapping. It doesn't necessarily stop being pecking and tapping it just loses its function. It still might be pecking and tapping in the sense of the idea of pecking and tapping. I'm pecking, you're tapping, we're doing that. Okay. Yes, I would say that students and teachers are always pecking and tapping. However, this pecking and tapping is not their idea of pecking and tapping even though they do have ideas of pecking and tapping. And sometimes according to their idea of pecking and tapping they're not pecking and tapping or I'm pecking but you're not you're not tapping or I'm tapping but

[22:43]

you know but you don't think you pecked so you tell me to stop tapping. So pecking and tapping is a type of conversation? Yeah, they're a type of conversation and we can have ideas of conversations which is fine but if we then attach to our idea of conversation we lose we interfere with or we lose the function of conversation. We're also not so adept when we hold on to it. That takes us back to the discussion of relaxing and playing and being creative with the pecking and tapping. Pecking and tapping is kind of pointing at the moon and that means I was just thinking about the difference between

[23:45]

the moon and pointing at the moon which is one of these stories or being in the middle of the ocean and you think you're in a circle of water but is that kind of the difference that you're talking about as far as pecking and tapping, our idea of what's happening? That's part of it. And but again the teacher did bring this up in the previous case a student brought up I'm going to peck, I want you to tap I want to peck from inside I want you to peck from outside. This one the teacher's bringing it up, saying here's this thing that people talk about and you guys got that but you lack the actual function which is also an invitation and it looks in a way it looks like he's asking the monk

[24:45]

to, in a demonstrable perceptible way to peck and he does, he says what's the function? And then the teacher tells him about the function, which is the people who have the function don't need the pecking and tapping and also as soon as you have the pecking and tapping you lose the function so that's his tap back and the student says, I don't understand but then the teacher pardon just before the student said I don't understand he said as soon as there's pecking and tapping you lose the function or rather the moment there's pecking and tapping you lose the function and again at the moment of pecking and tapping

[25:47]

you could say at the moment you think oh there's pecking and there's tapping at the moment you think that you lose the function and the adepts don't fall into that there's pecking and tapping but they don't fall into there's the pecking they maybe think they don't know it's kind of ambiguous for them but still yes yeah well it's a bodhisattva that's adept somebody one meaning of a bodhisattva doesn't necessarily mean they're an adept yeah there's bodhisattvas who there's beings who aspire to realize this authentic awakening in order to help all beings a person who has a vow like that is a bodhisattva according to one understanding another understanding

[26:47]

would be somebody who realized that that awakening but I think we can use it both ways that people who have that vow and some people who have that vow their realization of that awakening is inferior to some other people who do not have that vow who have quite a bit of awakening but they don't have the vow so they're not bodhisattvas even though they're in some sense wiser than a baby bodhisattva yeah this person could be an adept yeah so this person could be adept but not a bodhisattva possibly and a bodhisattva could be a real bodhisattva on the bodhisattva path however this person who this person who's an adept who doesn't have the vow actually is not that adept because they don't understand that they do have the vow which the beginning bodhisattva

[27:50]

who's not very adept at least they understand they have the vow and they're right but this person's really quite you know very adept doesn't get trapped in the process but they still don't understand that they're doing this with all beings and that they want to even though that's really what's going on so that's another dimension of picking and tapping that we don't realize that we're listening to all sentient beings and we're calling to all sentient beings yes when after the monk said what is the function was that the moment when he hit him with his he says what's the function and the teacher says what don't you understand no no he says what's the function and then the teacher tells him

[28:52]

adepts don't need this stuff and also at the moment you have this stuff you lose the function so adepts have the function and they don't need these elements they don't need to have them anymore they just have the function which is the way these two things don't exist separate from each other they've got that so they don't have either so they don't lose the function they are the function and part of the function is they can magically bring up questions about this picking and tapping that can emerge from this place where they don't have picking and tapping they don't need it and so they can use it and then the monk says I don't understand after he explains so what is the function he tells him about it and he says I don't understand then the teacher says

[29:54]

what don't you understand he still hasn't hit him then the monk says you lost it the monk says to the teacher you lost it that's when he hits him what does that mean you lost it well you actually again he the original just says lost but the understanding is the monk is confronting the teacher pecking back hard and saying you lost it you just told us what losing the function is and I told you I didn't understand then when you said what don't you understand at that moment you lost it at that moment you lost it and then the teacher hits him however the monk doesn't quite

[30:55]

harmonize with that so the teacher basically says get out then he goes and sees somebody else this is a common thing and tells another person about the conversation and the person says did he give you great compassion and then he understood well I think in that school they used that particular form to express their compassion it's part of the excuse the expression it's part of the DNA of that school which relates back to sort of the awakening of the founder of that school which is a story called Linji's Great Awakening so he was

[31:55]

he was a very peaceful peaceful faithful monk in a monastery and yeah and that monastery had a teacher and the teacher's name was Wong Bo so Linji he's a Buddhist monk he's peaceful and respectful and you know he's a good student and he's quite at ease and relaxed and awake so then the head monk who is a very important teacher also in the tradition

[32:57]

the head monk in this monastery asked this Linji if he had ever gone to talk to the teacher and he said no I think he said two or three years have you ever gone to talk to the teacher no I'm fine I don't need to talk to the teacher I don't need to I don't need to I don't need to peck or tap or anything I'm cool so then this other monk named Mu Zhou he he said well you really should it would really be good to go ask him a question and then Linji said well what should I ask him so ask him basically the same question which the monk asked Qingyuan what's the essential quintessential

[33:59]

deepest meaning of buddhadharma remember that question so that teacher said what's the price of rice and lu ding but Linji slapped him wow yeah so Linji did I say Linji slapped him sorry Wang Bo slapped Linji so Linji had I would guess there's no slapping in Linji's history before this moment teacher slapped him teacher being the head student no the head student Mu Zhou recommended he go ask the teacher what's buddhism about and he did and the teacher slapped him so then then he

[35:03]

Linji runs into Mu Zhou later the head monk Mu Zhou and Mu Zhou says how did it go he said well I asked him the question you told me to ask and he slapped me kind of hard and Mu Zhou said oh well you should ask him again so he did he went back and asked him again and he slapped him second time this is the story and then Mu Zhou runs into Linji again and says what happened in your meeting with the teacher he slapped me again he said ask him one more time so he does and Wang Bo slapped him a third time and

[36:04]

Mu Zhou said what happened that time he slapped me again and if you tell me to go back I'm not going to do it I'm not going to ask him that question anymore so Linji just didn't get this slapping thing it didn't seem I mean he was fine before he met the teacher and now that he's met the teacher he gets these slaps which he doesn't really see much point to so again he tells Mu Zhou and Mu Zhou says well ok ok fine you don't have to go ask him any more questions but at least say goodbye to him at least say goodbye don't just walk out be respectful

[37:06]

and Linji was a respectful person now the question is was Wang Bo respectful slapping him three times and there's another story I'll tell you two if you want but anyway that one he goes back to see Wang Bo a fourth time and this time I think he stands pretty far away I assume and he says basically you know the head monk suggested I come and say goodbye before I leave and Wang Bo says oh ok well oh no I think there's another interaction between the two before Linji goes back to say goodbye to Wang Bo Mu Zhou goes to Wang Bo and says this guy is really you know very sincere student so

[38:07]

please take care of him and Wang Bo says I know so he comes and says I'm leaving bye bye and Wang Bo says well it's ok to leave but actually I think maybe it would be good for you to go visit a friend of mine and he lives not too far just on the other side of this mountain range so he actually follows Wang Bo's instruction and goes to see this other teacher and he tells this other teacher's name is Da Yu and he tells this other teacher about what happened and he says after telling the story I don't know if what I did was right or wrong and Da Yu says

[39:09]

Wang Bo was so kind to you he gave his he gave his whole heart to you just such grandmotherly love he gave to you and you ask I don't know if I was right or wrong like that song maybe I'm right maybe I'm wrong maybe I'm weak and maybe I'm strong all I know is I'm in love with you anyway he says so Da Yu says you know blah blah he was so kind to you you know he was so kind to you he was so kind to you he gave his all for you and you're concerned about

[40:17]

and you're into whether you did right or wrong and Linji had great awakening and then he said huh there's not much to Wang Bo's teaching whatever you know not much to it just slapped me three times but you know but in brackets but that simple teaching that slapped me three times it did wake me up after you pointed out to me how kind it was I didn't get it and then Da Yu says a minute ago you were I think he said you bed-wetting baby a minute ago you were whining about

[41:19]

right and wrong and now you say there's not much to Wang Bo's teaching and then Da Yu punched him and then he grabbed Da Yu and threw him to the ground and punched him three times he got with the program and Da Yu said ok ok ok fine ok that's fine but Wang Bo is your teacher in other words even though you woke up with me he's really your teacher I'm just the punchline he's the set up he's your teacher so he goes back to Wang Bo and Wang Bo sees him coming and says oh no this guy again to Linji, Linji goes back to see Wang Bo

[42:24]

he says it to his attendant oh look who's coming and then Linji is pretty happy Linji was pretty happy before this whole thing started now he is like now he's really he's an adept he understands things he did not understand before by this style of interacting of slapping and punching as a form of kindness beyond people's idea of kindness it was in China at that time, still is and that set up this school this Linji school there's lots of stories about Wang Bo but not too many of them maybe, I only know two where he slapped people but Linji almost every time he slaps people let me finish the story

[43:30]

so Linji comes back and tells Wang Bo this happy story of his great awakening and Wang Bo says that Da Yu is too talkative Da Yu is too talkative Wang Bo doesn't slap and say that was really great compassion he doesn't tell him I love you so much or whack, I love you so much can you see it? Da Yu spills the beans and Wang Bo says he talks too much if I see him I'm going to give him some punches and Linji said you don't have to wait we can do that now and he goes and slaps Wang Bo and Wang Bo says get this guy out of here so that's kind of like the beginning of this style of teaching which is characterized by that school

[44:31]

so then the people did it for several generations they did it and this guy Nan Yuan was the fourth generation of that school so he used this slapping and using a stick as part of the conversation but they don't use it every time they use it at particular points like he says you people understand the idea of this pecking and tapping but you don't understand the principle and they go on for a while before the student kind of gives the teacher a whack you lost it teacher and the teacher hits him but then he lost it he couldn't quite harmonize with that so he again goes off tells the story gets another perspective and wakes up and then comes back and it all works out but

[45:34]

it may be that at this time in history that given the environment we have here that the sticks and the slappings are just sort of out of style at this point in Zen history and they may come back into style at some later time when everybody is really gentle and sweet and respectful and there's no guns and stuff like that then maybe we'll start slapping again and maybe it'll be totally sweet and tender so that's the point is that these slaps were tenderness par excellence and in our brutal society maybe maybe we can't it's not appropriate anymore to be doing that but if you want to know that's part of the history there of picking and tapping

[46:37]

and also because it's simultaneous when it's simultaneous you can't really see it like if I say hello could you see the answer? it's hard to see the response to hello but it's right there at the same time they come up together it's not like request and then answer they come up together it's not like peck peck tap tap peck tap it's like this but then you can't see it but the idea is peck tap then you lose it in the actual function you don't have it they're interfused and they're going on all the time

[47:42]

yes one thing on one of the stories one on the other it's a little confusing that somebody who is enlightened would say that teacher is not that great well that's one way to put it another way to put it is that if you consider all the teachings that there was in Buddhism at the time this teacher's teaching was what's Buddhism that's kind of not much to it so in some sense you could say not much to it but again it's kind of ironic that not much to it is so much to the point it's so simple you know that he can convey all of Buddhism in a slap but at the same time he said it it feels like he said it kind of light heartedly like oh yeah not much to it not much to all of Buddhism in this little simple thing and yeah but still

[48:54]

it's playing on that too like kind of light heartedly so that's why the other guy said now you say there's not much to it even though it woke you up yeah could you use another word function work activity no I think it's actual activity an actual working so there's the idea of peck and tap then there's the actual working of it so the teacher's saying well here's this teaching you guys got the idea let's work it now let's see if we can work it and I'll start by saying you don't have the function let's see if we can do the function here and the monk did come forward they're getting into it they're trying it out and then the teacher gave another now gave more information

[49:56]

about this function that they're going to try to embody and enact and then the student says I don't understand that also can be part of the function and then the teacher says and the student didn't like the teacher saying what don't you understand so then he said lost it so they're enacting it the story is about the function of this pecking and tapping the expression of it expression, Jan? with body, speech and mind expression yeah yes you did cover this with a background glance when you said in our age we're too brutal so we wouldn't do it that way we have to be super kind to be able to do it that way before that but I'm still not satisfied

[50:57]

because I was thinking why well these stories when somebody slaps and he slaps and he slaps and then he goes to another teacher and then he says oh that was like your grandmother just giving you a kiss and then they punch each other it just seems culturally very irrelevant to me when I get out of it could be relevant to our culture yeah yeah right what I get out of it is oh there's not much to the teaching meaning if I were with you you might do something very very simple it wouldn't be a slap so all I get out of that story is oh there's not much to the teaching yeah well that's kind of a key point that's kind of a key point these stories about slapping your grandmother and punching it's a little bit

[51:57]

tiresome it's a little bit tiresome and also but it's also to me it's interesting because it wasn't there basically in the history of Buddhism before that it wasn't there the Buddha never slapped anybody that I heard of he was a little bit terse occasionally or brusque or emphatic like he says my disciples do not hate living beings if you hate people you're not my disciples it's kind of intense and strict he was kind of strict not always but but I never heard of him slapping anybody as a matter of fact I asked people to do some research to even find out if the Buddha touched anybody because

[52:59]

he didn't seem to hug anybody Thich Nhat Hanh does these mindful hugs but the Buddha there's almost no examples of him hugging people so I said let's try to find some example where the Buddha actually touched the historical Buddha touched people and they found some examples but not too many so slapping people nothing like that and then again for a thousand years after that 1500 years almost no examples very few examples in Zen school it became very prevalent to do this kind of thing so it may be irrelevant now but it's still to me kind of a surprising thing that it ever happened so the fact that it happened and it was kind of unusual then too it was like this very if you use the expression a very creative thing that this happened never seen before

[54:00]

and very easy to get caught by it and get off track by it and but still I, when I was Abbot of Zen Center I stopped using the stick I thought that seemed like that would be good to do now yes I had an experience about the streets of Sydney in which I was slapped just by some crazy person slapped me on the side of my face as I was walking and the surge of emotions that lasted for hours because of this unexpected slap how really was thought provoking so maybe like you were saying with the really nice people the gentleness and that the slap just surged you know to bring some

[55:00]

black and white emotion to the teachings that's the only way I can think of really if I can be strong enough yes you know, please excuse me if I completely up my if I'm allowed to say but I'd like to be and there's something about concerning oneself with the activity of slapping that this is the function the function of the interaction that there's a way I feel like there's a way in which the teacher sets a trap and and that

[56:03]

the trap is really vital to the students waking up and the teacher is responding appropriately to to function as a teacher would be responding appropriately to the students need for to get caught in something in order to realize what an adept knows around the function of the trap function of how I can attack and

[57:09]

feeling a little bit like it was Dao Wu who was it that responded to me and said that Wang Bo was so compassionate was it Dao Wu? Yeah, Dao Wu said Wang Bo was so compassionate to you and you're talking about right and wrong and I'm wondering about the compassion Dao Wu's compassion in that is it not the work of the student to work the koan so to speak work the trap say again, is it not the work of the student in the process of waking up and work the trap well in the story

[58:13]

I could see it that the student was working the trap he brought the trap to show this person here's the trap, here's the conversation that I'm trapped in and Dao Wu said oh my god he's so kind to you and you're concerned with you know you're discriminating consciousness of right and wrong at that point Dao Wu has in some sense been a surrogate teacher and he, at that point his compassion did work for him and he woke up and they both did a job, student gave this and teacher says oh look at what you gave me it's so compassionate and he saw it and then now he starts his career of making various comments like wow there's not much in the end there's not much

[59:16]

that teacher's teaching now he's that's his compassion that's Linji's compassion and he again he was a fierce and compassionate bodhisattva but the style now has become perhaps apparently irrelevant to our time but compassion isn't irrelevant but that style it's just you know just like I'm sorry but your pants are too tight around the ankle yes I think I feel kind of sick it's like the story it's like cutting through it's like not pecking not tapping so we may not

[60:17]

we can get involved I don't like people hitting but the story is about yeah the story and the story is again you say the story is like this but can the story be not this or this can you find that there's no pecking and tapping in the story yes we don't even know what happened that's right we don't really know if this happened yeah and also if you heard

[61:19]

that the day before this story happened if they told you the date that that happened and then they also could produce some documents showing that that was the date the day before this it wouldn't be very important to you but the story which may never have happened is very important the more the more untrue it is the more important it is the more untrue it is the more important it is because it's we're talking about a creative process of liberation to free us from our ideas of history yes but I also think that the modality the modality is distinct and it is important because what's going to

[62:20]

inch alone right now is often a physical something that makes you have a physical reaction and so it is something that does right here right now you're right there for as long as it takes to process what happened whereas if you're having a conversation you can't wind your head from the top whereas if you just hit someone they're going to be right in that moment if you just hit someone what? they'll be right in that moment right away well they might be see in this story in this story it didn't work in this story when he hit him the student did not concur it didn't work the hitting with the stick

[63:21]

didn't work in the story the hitting didn't work the hitting didn't work it didn't work what worked was when the guy said I wonder if he broke his stick on you that question about the stick is what worked that's what had him then he concurred so you can speak soft gentle words to someone in a way that they concur and you can speak you know very intensely and they don't concur the thing is to concur and the great Zen master couldn't interact with the student in such a way that they could concur the pecking and tapping was such that they were not realizing the function and they used speech and then he used a stick and he used confronting the teacher

[64:21]

they weren't concurring and then in the simple telling the story to the other monk there was concurrence then he came back and he concurred with the successor and the concurrences weren't the typical slapping and shouting it was kind of gentle respectful speech like weren't you the monk who was here before yes I was how was it for you then well it was like this oh now you understand the thing is that these stories sometimes these hits did concur and sometimes they didn't when Wong Mo slapped him three times it didn't concur when Da Yu didn't slap him Da Yu just said that and it did concur then Lin Ji said this and that concurred and then Da Yu grabbed him and that did concur so it's

[65:23]

it's the function which nobody owns and we're in the middle of all the time when you say concur is this the point of turning yes there's turning concurring is like concurring we're doing it together it's not one side or the other it's simultaneous it's simultaneous call and response it's merging of all the stuff merging and turning on each other Bill and Fran okay were the stories about say it again stories about so what dense oh so dense students who are so dense yes well

[66:34]

there are stories like that yes however those stories in Buddhism are stories on the path to getting it so the story that's the main thing these stories are not these stories are open-ended but part of this open-ended process we're in is stories which come to a conclusion like like the one we said this guy's in the weeds he didn't get it you remember the weed story do you remember the weed story yeah so it's like this guy's stuck in the weeds it seems like he didn't get it even though it wasn't as dramatic and violent as you told but there are violent stories like what is it Milarepa

[67:38]

heard that name he had a very violent background and his teacher told him to build a tower and then he told him to take it down you know he had him build and take down that's what took in that case to deal with his situation but basically there's no end to this process but within the process are like these little vignettes start and finish so we have these little births and deaths in a process where everything is including everything and then birth is including everything and then death is including everything and everything includes the birth and birth includes everything and death includes but we do have these things it's an ongoing

[68:38]

conversation there's no end to it and we should we should understand that even though it seems like he drove the monk out he told him to leave why? because he didn't concur but they this is in the process where he drove them out so they could concur and Wangbo too Wangbo didn't drive Linji out Linji said I've had it but then he tried it again and came back so we send away so we can come back we come back so we can send away thank you just a second Fran so I was wondering so maybe the reason that a sloth is described as so wonderfully compassionate is because the teacher who has

[69:40]

is known by the friend to be such a compassionate person and would never want to hurt the student so in slothing there's some pain but the teacher is willing, giving himself to letting himself give the student some pain in order to have the result that he's hoping for the student waking up so the teacher is maybe in a way so compassionate he's almost hurting himself because he's hurting the student but he knows that there's something greater that's coming out of it and maybe it only works once he heard the words from the friend because the friend just pointed out that it was coming out of compassion

[70:40]

and I could understand Bill I was thinking about the Norah Rippa story and the importance of the feminine principle because I think the reason that Marla gave Norah Rippa a break was at the suggestion of his wife she said hey get that right yeah yeah Marpa Marpa Bill's saying that Marpa gave him these assignments to do these things over and over and then he's saying that Marpa's wife told him to give Miller Rippa a break suggested to give him a break yes well I guess

[72:03]

could you tell the story that somebody hit a child and then someone told the child that some other person told the child that that was kindness and the child had a great awakening yeah well I just said it happened so if that happened what are you going to do if it happened what are you going to do if the child stood up and said I'm fine now I'm awake and there's not much to that person's sin we have some experience in the world that we live in which is that if a child is being hit and somebody says you're doing it for your own good out of kindness that's not this story though it's not that right but I'm just saying if a child is hit and the child says I'm done with this I don't want to be hit anymore

[73:03]

I don't want to do this anymore I'm out of here and then somebody else tells them that that hitting was kindness and they wake up then it would be the parallel thing now we have a child and the child is saying this hitting isn't working for me this story isn't working for me but I would say it would be like I'm not thinking moral moral life so I'm going to go ahead well just I didn't think it through when I was saying it but because your response makes a lot of sense I'm thinking if there's an enlightened master it's maybe you know and they're not really hurting the person I don't think the attack is really damaging

[74:08]

the person it's not a shock maybe that doesn't make sense it hurts there is a way there is a way that I can see it hurting the master but he knows that he's doing something that's been called a student and I know that's completely wrong for everything we know about normal society I'm just thinking outside this is not different well well it's time to stop it's kind of like time to end an open ended conversation and I appreciate you saying that the story doesn't work for you and you saying the story doesn't work for you that's and then and then you can become free of that view that you have

[75:10]

at some point part of the story works for me when he says there's not much to that teacher's teaching because he gets how simple it is oh so it does work for you that works never mind thank you thank you very much and this is part of the story about this story I'm sorry this story does not have an ancient what do you call it an ancient poem in response to it so this this case is not in those more accessible what do you call it collections this is case 185 of a book called

[76:11]

Tangled Vines Tangled Vines in Japanese K-A-T-T-O S-H-U which means the record of tangled vines it's case number 85 185 are you asking us inviting us to write poetry um yeah but I I'm just saying it doesn't come it doesn't come with a poem like the other ones did so you'll be leaping into the realm of poetry without an example so this is a long story but can you find it online I don't know it's it's if you want to like hear it again it'll be available online to listen to for this class

[77:14]

so if it's too I'm sorry I didn't think of it you wouldn't be able to read it I'll see if I can find it online I don't think so because it's not such a well known collection collection collection well known

[77:30]

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