It's probably time to have a little discussion about the atmosphere in our country at this time, dealing with the state of the rebellion that's going on, and the imperialism And we can have a discussion, a short discussion, if that's possible. Have you seen, when I was watching the football game recently, in between the events, they had these ads.

[01:25]

And this man kept referring to one about the Humvee. The Humvee, the Hummer, is like the workhorse in the Desert Storm. It's real wide. It carries a lot of troops and children. body like a bullet. During the Second World War, they had the jeep. The jeep was kind of cute. They carried troops around. A lot of people bought jeeps because of their experience during the war.

[02:35]

And after now, this Humvee has become a commercial vehicle. It's painted yellow instead of camouflage. And there's a picture in the New Yorker. It's hard to tell whether it was a cartoon or serious. And then we show that on me, on TV, it's always going overland, churning up rivers, going through the ocean, doing all these remarkable things. Since, in the last 10 years, the advertising for SUVs has been highly terrifiering.

[03:39]

show these huge vehicles churning up the ground, churning up the earth, going over land or over meadows. You know, when a car goes over a meadow, it tears up all the grass. It takes years and years to grow. Anyway, so I think the hummer is a symbol right now of our attitude is being sold to the public through this kind of image, we can run over and get out of the way. So this is the intent of our attitude, which is being broadcast around the world. But it is important for us to

[04:41]

and the attitude of the world, and our attitude, and the world's attitude toward what's going on here. I think it's important to go to the bottom of things. Often, when we think about what's going on, we get stuck in the little waves, you know. But it's important, I think, to get on the bottom and look at what we're reading. Now, this regime, this administration, wants to go to war with Iraq. And of course, that's taking away from the problem. If it's not giving you a problem, you're not paying attention. This concerns you. The world is too small now, too much in one piece to escape and close off.

[05:59]

It used to be that we had wars in Africa and we had wars in Europe. It didn't matter to us. But now it matters. It really does matter. And we can't escape. send little needles to come with the soup. And I always ask them to stir the soup from the bottom. Don't just take it up and out. Stir the soup from the bottom and see what's under there. The heavy stuff goes to the bottom, but the water stays on top. So stir the soup before you serve. Always go to the bottom. This is the same with our practice and the same with our understanding. of the world. Stir the soup and see what's on the bottom.

[07:03]

So, if we really look closely at what's on the bottom, it's, what is motivating me, it's world domination. After the Second World War, the United States found itself with all this power. Comes up with a huge war machine, and didn't know where to go. Basically, this is how we can continue to dominate the world. Just like the axis did. The axis. That's what we call Germany, Italy, and have actually taken their place.

[08:06]

Now, we want to be the containers. The democratic process is almost gone. And the pretenders to the throne, they're gossip. The other side should have boycotted that inauguration. We should just have not shown up. But since they did, it means that they got them and they lost everything. There's no opposition. No real opposition. The two lady Senators from California are almost the only opposition, except for Mr. Wilson. And if you get it, everyone's not going to listen. So far, the Middle East is hanging together as a unit.

[09:16]

We just have to hope that they do. Otherwise, they will take over Iraq. Then we'll take over Iran. Then we'll take over Saudi Arabia. And we'll have all the oil we need. And we'll control everything. So we don't need Alaska. Since we can't have Alaska, we'll take the Middle East. So it's really, we came out of the Cold War as the only superpower in the world. The only opposition has to be, the opposition has to be the whole world. The united world against the United States.

[10:16]

The only counter is the only united world against the United States. It's got to be. And it's very hard to change things from inside. But we also have to change things from inside. I don't know how. But my experience is that misdirected power destroys itself. But in the meantime, there's been a lot of destruction. So, you know, we've villainized Mr. Hussain. Every time we talk about Mr. Hussain, we say, we know he's evil. But it doesn't mean we have to get it. So either way, we say he's evil. And this is being sold.

[11:20]

We buy it. Oh yeah, he's evil. Well, who isn't evil? Everybody's evil. Every head of state is evil. Well, a corporation is only interested in profits and shareholders. A corporation has no soul and no heart. But it has advertising and a facade. So the president wants to make war on Sudan and Iraq to begin with, all by himself.

[12:42]

We can do it all by ourselves. I mean, it's like totally ignoring karma. Anyone who totally ignores karma is bound to self-destruct. being told this over and over again. If you make war on Saddam Hussein, the whole Middle East will explode. And you think that September 11th was a tragedy. Who would defend themselves? People say, well, this is one year coming around now. in September 11. And maybe there will be another thing on September 11. But that would be foolish. Because if somebody did something on September 11, that would totally bring everybody in the country almost behind the administration.

[13:52]

So why would somebody do something as foolish as that? For my people, there are people out there just waiting for an excuse that they haven't given you. Thank goodness. But, you know, there are people in power who don't care about the environment, even though they live in it. That's the strange part. There are people who maybe feel they don't live on this world. So it doesn't matter what happens to the environment. The message is, we just have to get used to it. So the world, more and more, hates us.

[14:57]

And we're feeling, I think, the problem is, one problem is, in my opinion, that we never learned the lesson. In my opinion, what 9-11 was about was that message. But you didn't get the message. The message was, hey, you guys, look at yourself. Look at what you're doing. Why would we commit suicide like this? except to give you a message. And just in progressing you'll act. Or you'll take the message. What do you think?

[16:03]

What? Well, you know, I read the paper a little bit. And I think there is some traditional opposition to the war. A lot of people are saying, well, maybe Bush will get involved in it. But I think there's going to be a huge dissent from there. And I'm a representative. I agree with you. Oh, sure. I just wanted to know. when it's people who really make an effort to. And then, I don't doubt that's how we can stay in the threat, in terms of maybe biological and medical reasons. Just like us, yeah. Yeah, just like us. But my opinion is, we have to use diplomacy to the maximum. Whatever we can do to put it forward. Diplomacy. Now supposing, see, if we wanted peace, we would use diplomacy.

[17:13]

That's logical. But because we don't use diplomacy means that we don't want peace. Because if we wanted peace, we'd be diplomatic. George Bush should go to North Korea and talk to the people in North Korea. He should go to Baghdad and talk to the Syrians face to face. You know, the more you alienate people, the more you have an excuse to eliminate them and to make them into enemies. You don't make peace by alienating people. You don't make people at peace by discriminating yourself from people. Imagine if you were the same. And the United States is over there. And every day they're talking about annihilating you. think about if you were anywhere in the world, besides here, and thinking about home, what are they thinking about me?

[18:24]

And what are they doing to shape me? Anywhere in the world. So there's no empathy going on. It's simply corporate profits and anything And the machine runs itself. That's the scary part. I have a big problem with this whole situation. Me too. I came here to meditate and to find something inside of myself. And I'm new here, I don't come every time. But I have a lot of disagreements with what you said. And the problems that you're talking about you know, from the United States since World War II, the war. These are very deep, emotional, complex, very complicated issues. And, you know, with all due respect to what you're saying, you know, there's other sides to these coins. And we could sit here and we could talk for days and weeks and months about these issues.

[19:30]

And, you know, I, like myself personally, I disagree with a lot of what you say, And what I have a problem with is the fact that as you is to recognize the head of this community telling us what the world is like and where the United States is at, and this is your view. I find myself in conflict because I see you also as a spiritual leader of this community. And at this point, I hear you calling the United States imperialistic, that we're evil, that the cabinet is evil because they have corporate situations. I mean, we could argue these points in many different ways. And I'm just saying, without getting into any specific point, I have a problem with it because I feel a lot of turmoil inside, whereas when I was done meditating today, I felt a lot of peace within. And I feel that, you know, I'm raising the question here as to whether it's appropriate, you know, in this community, in the spiritual community, to be telling us

[20:33]

well this is the way it is, when I'm a man, I'm an individual, I have my own feelings about this, you know, whether this is the correct way of dealing with this, even though these are your personal feelings about our country also. Thank you. The reason why I'm doing this, I don't do this very often, but when I feel that this, people are feeling a need, to bring this out in the open and not just kind of leave it unspoken. And you may not feel that there's such a problem, but I think there are a lot of people who do. And so at the risk of giving you my opinion, which I know is very risky, and I don't do that lightly, I feel that there's a need for people to express what they're feeling, and you as well.

[21:48]

So I appreciate your view. There's a lot that I cannot stand about this government that we live in, and this government, as all governments, including the states. And I'm also American, And if there was any way I could stop 9-11 from happening, I would have died doing that. At least at home I would have. And I think it's, like I say, a very complex situation. There was a tremendous amount of suffering of Americans and people all throughout the world as a result of 9-11. And I think it was a lot more than just As we're talking, I think of Siddhartha's words, how do we prevent our souls from leaving us and entering? And it's easy to vilify version, it's easy to vilify Siddhartha, but how do we find this quiet place within in which to speak?

[22:53]

That's a good point. Because the blame is so much out there. I'm taking the standpoint of a loyal American citizen to a temporary country by bringing up the other side, which we don't look at. Well, I was feeling some of what this person was saying. I was feeling this stark contrast to what we usually have and feel in here. I usually come and feel quiet and centered, and your talk tends to help me feel that way. And today I'm feeling, from what you're saying, upset and agitated.

[24:01]

I think that it's a real time of introspection in the whole country, though. I think that there's a lot of people that are asking these questions. And I think the anniversary of 9-11, there's a lot of sanctimonious BS that's happening. But there's also a lot of, I think, genuine introspection people bringing up these questions. And it appears to me that Bush is being It's coded read. It's very dangerous. But I think we have to ask these questions and address them. And where else besides the spiritual community, as well as everywhere else? Some of us are meeting this afternoon with the Buddhist Peace Fellowship. And part of the thing that needs to happen is to figure out how that organization also responds to these events. When you were inviting people, observers, to stir up hot pot,

[25:42]

I don't think that's the motto. In terms of Buddhism, There's some reason why these voices come together. There's the mother. We have the three voices of greed, hatred, and delusion. And they're all working in some things. They constitute themselves as leaders. as policies, as economic policies or political policies, all these things.

[27:02]

And they are extremely complex. And so actually, to a large extent, I agree with the gentleman that Stan was saying, that the discussion, I feel like what you're doing is stirring up a pot here. And so the discussion But I just, I guess I tried to look at, you know, what are the factors that make a solution, and what are they indeed? You know, do you mean that allows certain kinds of problems to be enacted? I have great disagreements with George Bush, but I also suspect that he has appetites and feelings that are not so dissimilar from mine.

[28:26]

And how do we work with that mind and those differences that we have? That's good. But what can we do about it? That's very good. Charlie? Well, I have two points. One is, we always come to the same kind of skepticism that we never get. The other point is, Israel is right over there. They know those guys. Recall, I don't remember what it was, but they bombed a nuclear reactor in Syria several years ago.

[29:31]

Iraq. And I think that Iraq had another one. They went and bombed that one, too. So I think it's all a smart thing. I don't think so. No, I do not trust the person. Once he makes such a commitment, it's hard to back out. Well, that's the scary part. He's halfway up to doing that, yes. I can't tell if he's back or not. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. I'm thinking a lot about German during the period between the First and Second World Wars. And I wonder if there were challenges to normal German people to the Dutch and Basque, to not be

[30:40]

There must have been great challenges for them to lead their lives and protect their children. And I wonder, as a person who tries to practice, what would you like to say about that? But I think that we should be very convinced and bring what's going on to light and help people understand.

[32:01]

We have so many vested interests that block our understanding I have to, you know, work and my whole life is taken up with that kind of busy thing. I'm not going to pay a lot of attention. Or, I don't want to lose my job. I don't want to, you know. So it's very difficult to allow ourselves to really see. And I think that in that situation.

[33:04]

I just want to thank you very much for having this talk with me, because I've been disturbed by the other people talking about it. And we can't separate ourselves from the rest of the world. Our practice is not one that's quarterstripped. It has to do with being in the world and being able to practice whatever is going on. And this is what's going on. I personally am very disturbed by it. And I see a lot of parallels historically. And it frightens me. It frightens me. I have children. I have grandchildren. I don't know what kind of world they're inheriting. But I think that people that believe that what we're doing is correct are very dangerous to us because it's not correct. And they talk about threatening our way of life. Well, our way of life is just consumption at the expense of everybody else on the earth.

[34:05]

And if we think that this is new, then we're mistaken. Because it's always been going on. It's just bigger now. And it's in your face. And nobody's hiding it. They used to hide it a lot. But they're not holding us down. It's like wag the dog. We can see what is happening. And personally, I don't even see what Saddam Hussein is doing. I mean, he's over there, and we keep saying that he's doing this and that, and I don't see what he's doing. And they're saying that he's doing it, but they're the only ones that are telling us that he's doing it. You know, I know that there's evil everywhere, and that we're in trouble if we're evil. I think that we have done a lot of evil things in history. I won't even begin to elaborate on all of it, but this world domination thing is not new. I mean, we've been doing this for a long time.

[35:07]

And we know how to paint a pretty picture. And I liked your analogy of the pundit, because it is a symbol of our greed, and our consumption, and our not caring what others think. And even when you look at ads now, the tenor of ads is like, people love it when they say, boy, that kills, or so-and-so rules, or so-and-so kicks ass. And it's always like this aggressive thing to someone else. And there's an aggressive tenor everywhere. People are not polite to one another. I mean, people are very, very rude. They just want to get theirs. I mean, when I go to work every day, Men pushed me out of the way to be the first one through the bar, turnstile. I mean, it's just this aggressive thing that is happening that's very frightening. And I think we do need to look back at what happened in Germany. Because it's the same atmosphere. And we are saying, you know, we're using Saddam Hussein as an excuse to do what it is we want to do, which is to get the oil.

[36:13]

It's like you said, it's to get everything, it's to get that oil. You know, we don't want to stop and try to see how we can live with what we have. We just want more. If we're not always trying to get more, we think there's something wrong. Something about growing, you know, like, when does it stop? So I appreciate your talk. If it's disturbing, well, it's disturbing. What's not disturbing right now? You know, I feel very insecure about what's happening. I think we need to talk to one another, and I think that we need to talk about how to practice. I was thinking about this, I don't know if it was last week or the week before, when the man that wrote the book, I can't remember his name, was talking about practicing when confronting death. And I think that that's very appropriate, that we have to start thinking about practicing when we are confronting death, because this is what's going to be happening, we're going to be seeing a lot of death. I appreciate your expressing your opinions this morning.

[37:41]

And I noticed in myself how I was agitated at hearing some of which seemed comfortable for me and some not. But the issue under that, I think, is the danger right here and now of our thinking that you're an arbiter of opinion. that by speaking your opinions that somehow you then become an arbiter of the opinion. I didn't hear that in what you said, but if we have that idea, that's a very dangerous one. And right alongside that is this notion of peace or peacefulness or calm. I think there's a sense in which feeling of calm is a ruse.

[38:43]

It's a feeling of comfort that we're after, and we should be very cautious about that. where we can perhaps find peace in the midst of our own education. I think, how do we maintain a settled mind in the midst of the turmoil? So, although we may have a peaceful feeling that Kriyazatana is pretty good, Kriyazatana is deeper than that. We don't try to get rid of our delusions. We don't try to get rid of our agitation. We simply go deeper so that we can encompass everything.

[39:46]

We can encompass the difficulties. We can include the truth. We can include reality in all of its aspects. Also, when I say, these are my opinions, you don't have to believe them, and you don't have to... But I'm simply stirring the pot. Stirring the pot and getting the stuff up, and you can do what you want with it. the appreciation for the opinions that you have the courage to share with us today. Now, what I'm hearing from what you're saying is that we try to look for the balance.

[40:50]

I mean, you're right, we're wrong, but this is what I'm understanding. And I'm hearing you give voice to the side that isn't heard. I think, for example, that Our media serves us by bringing this knowledge of what happened on September 11th and enables us to hear the voices and the cries of all of those who suffered so much. But I think also that the conflict didn't begin on September 11th and that what you're asking us to do is to listen to the cries of those who fell. I think she's right in the very last part that she just said that you're asking us to be aware of what's going on in the world. And with all due respect to you, every time I've been here, not every time, but I've asked a lot of questions of you about spiritual matters, about Zazen and about enlightenment, that sort of thing. And I look to you as a man of wisdom for answers to that. And I do have a problem when, as a political person,

[41:53]

I watch the news a lot. I think about this stuff myself. When I have my opinions about history and about current events, when you are telling me in the same room, well, this is the way it is, I do have a problem with that. And I know churches of all denominations, Christian churches, Muslim churches, are concerned with issues also. And I would like to propose that, you know, if this is something everybody here, or most people here, are really taking seriously, perhaps a more healthy environment would be to have a night or a day set aside for discussion about these issues, not, you know, when we come to meditate. I mean, myself, you know, I went to Cal, okay, and I was there during the free speech movement, and I know how volatile the situation was. And there was, like, people against Vietnam War, people for it, And, you know, like, I started to think, you know, you're going to put a sign out front saying all political outlooks are welcome here.

[42:58]

Because, I mean, this is a spiritual community. And the spiritual community should be open to people that support Bush. They shouldn't have to come here and be told, well, we've got all the same opinion here, and now we've got to act, and we've got to be aware of that. But this is why I asked for your opinion. My point is, though, and like I said, I'm a newcomer to this. But I feel that in this environment, this is a fairly good-sized facility. Why not have a date and an announcement set aside? If you choose to come and discuss these issues, we're doing it on a certain night. Well, that's a good idea. Instead of having this right unexpectedly, well, here we are with Sazen, and then we're talking politics. I have been sitting listening to this, and everybody's got their opinion, and a couple things about it.

[44:01]

One is, you know, we're just a microcosm of what's happening. I mean, we're sitting here feeling protected, and feeling fearful, and feeling, you know, I want to protect mine, and they're saying this, and they're rocking this and that. So we're all sort of doing what's happening, you know, in a world that large. The other thing is, One of the things about this practice that I've sort of, I'm a newcomer as well, but I've sort of gotten this idea that it's not, I read a book and they talked about some religions and a lot of Christianity is like if there's someone on the pedestal and whatever that person says, that's sort of God's word. And what I've learned about this practice from whatever, books, whatever, is that I come in and I listen to you, and there's a part of me that thinks, oh, he's saying that. But there's another part of me that this isn't what, from my understanding, this practice is about. It isn't about putting someone on a pedestal. And they're the ones that we look up to. In fact, everything that I've heard is that that's not what it is.

[45:06]

It's a pure situation. And some people sit on it a lot more than others. And when I sit a lot more, I get a lot more peace or calm or wisdom or whatever. I still, that doesn't mean that you are speaking for lack of a better word. God's word. I think that that's sort of what I started realizing in everything that we're talking is you're just giving your opinion just like everybody else. But for us to let it mean something more than your opinion is part of what the practice is about. for me to maintain the quality, so. So my purpose is to, as I said, stir up the pot and allow you to think whatever you think and come up with whatever conclusions you come up with. I'm not telling you actually how to think. But what I presented to you is what I feel are well-known

[46:13]

I'm just putting it on the tip of the oil. And what we can do, of course, it's a huge question, but for some reason this came to mind. This is a very young woman, roughly, who is a middle school teacher. And she is also a songwriter, and she writes songs about She did a cross-country tour in a vehicle that ran on deer and vegetable oil. And she and her band traveled kind of across the country and back, and they kept their vehicle fueled by stopping at fast food restaurants. And you can hear news all day. I wish they had very practical effigies. It's been good to get you on the show.

[47:23]

It's been a while. Keep modeling your ass. And that note, it was very nice of the timekeeper to say, thank you very much. Thank you for not killing me. It's kind of sticking. I realize I'm sticking my neck out when I do this. I just want to let you know what I am aware of, and hope that you will find your own awareness. It may not match mine, which is OK. And I see that I do this rarely. Maybe it would be a good idea to do it, to have a separate time, instead, during lecture time, to do this. Well, it's always hard for people to do this. But it's a good suggestion, and I hope people will appreciate that. It seems like we have a usual way of discussing practice that leads to a focus on what you're going to do.

[48:56]

And when we discuss political to think, well, we have to win the argument, or we have to reach consensus, at which I don't think we're likely to do. So there's a little bit of a cognitive dissonance between those two approaches. But I think to bring it out today, to be able to choose. It is like a...

[49:46]

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