Scientific Validation of Zazen

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Saturday Lecture

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thing he was added
no gays the greater than the average of is where

every morning

several years back round of forties
they were a group of japanese scientists who wanted to march
verify or a test
the validity of and zen meditation
and
so they got together a group of then priests and made this scientific tests and all phases of on zen meditation
ah
and
the an basic come equipment they used with a lecture and safely grim
i'm with chapin the arbitrators eg
i took it i e g tests
in a pan
sixties
like reported clinic in san francisco
and they had a mmm they were carrying on it work
lot of psychologists and now
and scientists were collaborating now than he is the g is a brain wave and testing machine
so they decided that the way to
test
hum
the results are implementation was through brain waves
so these scientists and psychologists were collaborating
and these tests and
around sixty seven sixty eight
bomb
they are they were asking john and students from san francisco and berkeley to
volunteer to participate in those tests
and in germany since and closet
and they put electrodes and your him
and then you to invest in a new test your brain waves
and these machines that make crafts
and then
at the time i didn't think so much about it and so much of it can
i wasn't particularly interested in the scientific evaluation of
origin
baton
recently i've been around
reading some of the research and it's pretty interesting actually and it helps to refocus
some of my understanding
and i think it's it can be very valuable
and especially for people who need
in our day and age some scientific evaluation her village the validation
i think it's helpful for for those people
but ah
there were four types of brain waves that
where am i prominent
the alpha waves and beta waves
and the delta waves and theta waves
and alpha waves are what i'm
usually associated with our sleep or very calm kind of mind
and what the researchers were interested in was ah
particularly with alpha waves
if the zen meditators really produced alpha waves when they meditate
this was just be very important
because alpha shows a unified kind of mind
and of course instance when ah in deep somebody
or even an advanced then still
well immediately start producing alpha waves when they begin to design
and beta waves on the waves that are produced through thinking might
mental activity
and i don't always or more agitated kind of ways that are produced through conflict
ah through com
anger on it instability
the mental instability and
the theta waves are ways very deep slow waves that are associated with
a deep sleep
and they just covered that
ha
old time monks people been practicing for thirty or forty years produced these theta waves in there and says in
with their eyes open and and waking state
ha
which is very unusual
but it proved to the scientists agree a deep calm mind of someone who doesn't
it has been ah who has mastered doesn't
i'm
ah and they made rape various comparisons between practitioners and people who were drawn from various other and who had never experienced as in before and they put these people who had never had no experiences as in the same positions
as the people who are experience and the results are quite different so it didn't depend so much am ah
the positions as it depended on the depth of practice
so alpha waves are very characteristic of zen meditation and and the scientists are very pleased with this and help them to verify all of them
claims made by various
ah patriarchs or ancestors in on the zen tradition
and they tested the various
ha
things like zazi in and kill him and i even things like a belief
how belief
ha
ha helps to
regulate the various systems within the body and mind
very interesting

and one thing that was mentioned
yeah in
ha
who was
the difference between sleep and awareness in zazen
and ah
the scientists are very
i'm not surprised but
impressed with the fact that
as zen people people in zen meditation could produce the same kind of
brain waves as ah someone in
tranquil states of sleep
and yet and they were in a state of complete of awakedness and awareness
ah they went off to india to member rest of our lady here new dolly gonna get tansy
and she was working for and professor green who were as interested in biofeedback and they went to india and tested your visa and different people and
and they found it on the yogi is also
we're able to and very deep concentrated japan
meditation but their meditation was different it was more like sleep actually are some detached state
for instance in
ha in a meditative state
when there was some interruption
ah the like a pencil tapping or some kind of the russian
it would record on the
zen masters mind and make some record but yet but it wouldn't stay there it would just be ah
is there something it receptive
but when you to that same test to the the yogi in india there was no record it didn't record it in there was no response
ah
so zen meditation is
little different than yogic meditation and aims and purposes or not the same
although there's a lot of similarity
a
but i zen meditation is a weakness and awareness and always done with the eyes open
ah
and
state of
awareness
i'm
the scientists are very impressed by the state of awareness of this instant
i'm
in as as in you know we're supposed to
i think not thinking slogan says
without
i'm chasing her thoughts away
extraneous thoughts on
present student has it
very deeply concentrated nine
i'm just done the subject so as instant considering doesn't
i have perfect posture and equanimity
and yet have all kinds of images coming up in the mind and i are kinds of associated chains of thought which are on the surface of the mind
and without eliminating known as are chasing them away
i'm
the sense didn't just let those thoughts
come and go
they come by themselves and disappear by themselves
and the zen student doesn't make a conscious association between the thoughts
but nevertheless a conscious association is made ah
in know it
if someone am
comes into the room we say on someone's coming to the room and and that leads to another thought where or who is this prison and ah then the person sits down with had this thought of him sitting down and then maybe you start thinking about them and then that leads to another thought and pretty soon here
and this chain of thoughts which
goes on and at some point
there's nothing more to associated with so it passes out
ah but at the same time that these are this associates association and chain of thoughts is going on this and since to is still sitting zazen
so there's a kind of subconscious ah attention attentiveness sub conscious conscience
concentration
and
the same kind of
a dual concentration
his plays an active part
ah in the world when since student is
ah acting in the world
that same they shouldn't have that same basic concentration
subconscious concentration
ah observe him
and at the same time
ah
to be able to deal in the realm of associated thoughts
and actions
without losing the basic concentration
ha ha little while ago i talked about
come on it's is a good way she talked about
how our mind is like a screen a movie screen
and the activities of mind and i like the projections on the screen
but the screen itself i has to be black
ha and is black screen is like are fundamental mind fundamental consciousness
now and we're not so aware usually of our fundamental consciousness
i'm twenty delight in their are pictures and the associations we make ah
ha
about the movie
ha bet in zazen what we're interested in is the just the screen just the blank screen the white screen with no projections
ah
but even though we want to see the scratch
it's it's still pretty crazy
and
there's always something being projected on the screen
but through a conscious effort and conscious activity and says him
we know about the screen
not a polite screen
so we don't pay so much attention to the pictures
because be interested in just a white screen but when we go out into the world ah the picture takes on more meaning
and we have to
people careful and attentive to the pictures to the picture of my life
and we have to respond to it
but ah at the same time without losing the understanding or losing time of based on ah
of the screen
it's we also describe him as than water in the waves than sir classical description of my mind
the calm water water the nature water is calmness actually placid know just clear
calm water that's our basic nature
so insane representing their basic congress just no waves no ripples
and as soon as he throws them to him you have in throw a pebble into the kremlin and you have a ripple
ah and in a storm
see you can even see the ocean obviously is the waves
ah
and the object of of our practice is even know how there's a storm we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the ocean is really tranquil
if you go down in did
you find it the storm doesn't really reach all over again
that is a place where ah
it's very still very calm
and you can meet your mind
so in our everyday activity
we always try to find this place where where we meet our karma and
where were always in that place
ah so that no matter what's going on in the surface we never lose ourselves we never get knocked off our place and this is the basis of a recall i'm always being in control of the situation not controlling the waves you don't
try to control the ways
we just when the waves good
ha heavy
we just throw get deeper we just go deeper
so in the most extreme situation
we just go deeper and deeper
some palm
our difficulties actually i is our opportunity
that's what we say or difficulty it's our opportunity because it's more difficult it gets the deeper we can go if we don't have that difficulty we don't feel like going deeper you know we have to kinda be forced into ah that depth
ha so some practice like sashing helps us to get deeper into my on fundamental mind
sir
you can tell as instant who is is really practicing
when they have a big problem for women the sees getting rough
ah based themselves deeper and deeper into the kindness of their mind
ah
so
alpha waves came out can be sustained now our alpha mind should be with us always
not just when we're sitting down i'm having a brain waves measure
vincent should always been producing knows how cool is
no matter what's happening most important thing for existing is not not what their reaction to stimulus is but ah
ah how to keep the car mind
so it's always a big challenge
how do you keep your combined in all circumstances does it mean that you don't dissenting about it when we have combined then we can our response
we're able to respond
when we don't have come my than we can only react
so there's a big difference between reaction and response
reaction is just ah
with nothing deeper them are agitated mind we lash out
response comes from
the ability to
come from a deep place and a place
ah that is honor be yourself

reaction is to be caught by the other side and response comes from the unity of yourself and the other side
so the responses are kind of wholeness comes out of wholeness rather than partiality
ha
this sam
kind of them
saying in buddhism
the difference between a lion and the dog
the pam
when it a man as someone shakes a stick at a dog the dog leaps for the stick
but the lion goes for the person
and so you know we have this kind of
in our society we are these people who hide behind shields and shake sticks
henry our attention is focused on there
he had to end of the stick and chewing and get all upset instead of going right behind the shields
then to the source
if
ah came from the source ourselves and we can see sorts of other things
when we don't have to crotchet stores
huh
so lover japanese scientists
i'm thereupon psychologists scientific psychologists are interested in using
zazen or zen meditation methods as therapy
problem is you know they want they liked to divorce it from the religious aspect
see you don't need to have them the religion in order to help her therapy
and and
that may be so
but am i think the goals are quite different
and shy
in our zen practice we always have people who come to practice for therapeutic reasons and we done that's fine if if people do that that it's know the highest meaning of and practice
but i think it's it's very important and it helps people it's very good
and also may help to lead people into practice into the deeper meaning of practice
because people come to practice for various reasons and they don't really know why they come
i think most of us have come to practice for various reasons but it takes us a while to understand when our practice is really bad
maybe two thousand and thirty years
many we never do understand what it's really pub
but i think that that's a valid entrance
therapies are found an entrance into practice
but i think it if it's only used as therapy
limited in that way that it loses it's real function and mean
ah people today want to extract their religious content out of things and just use them practical aspect
ha
which is a big mistake
ah
how the ah
calming the mind can be done by anyone and it's very good practice for anyone
ah people consider chairs
and unify the nine
when it's not the same as a mere practice
but i'm ah
i feel good about the scientific approach to him to meditation practice
it's very interesting to see
that kind of analysis
and also to see how impressed the scientists are with and their method and and with his eyes in itself and to actually verify
man their explanations of them
our teachers
hum
having they're very serious about with been doing
and am i remember seeing movies in japan
the early sixties when we were doing that those tests and movies shoved design priests with big masks are walking kill him with the mask and wig tubes and wires coming out
showing up the robes and atlanta sleeves and out of their noses and ears
very funny

but it's not very meaningful i think that if some ah
psychologists or psychiatrists too
practice and seriously i'm kim
incorporate some the some a zen meditation and to helping patients have been conserved
that can be very valid
one of the things that impressed me was that some of the scientists could actually
penetrate can accept and
explain
the actual meaning of what
zen meditation was about
and that was heartening
didn't to say onwards that and are they could really penetrated and ah
using some of their own terms
and ah ah they kicked them explain it
as much as you can explain something
and attest to its validity
germany a christian
are you describe the contents to sound like
god and ask them
atlas
tak about speakers
can then you said that one can attain combined by filling her chair and other things happen
and then will set that town
practicing coming of mind
aside from its religious context isn't the same song of what i mean is that doesn't have the same goal depth he can sit down and calm in mind but unless you have ah
constant practice and ah
and have gone through the various stages of concentration and meditation
ah you don't have the same result even though a beginner can sit down the chair and just watch bread control she just in a calm mind and breath and it'll be beneficial
but it's not the same and someone's been practicing not exactly the same depth as ah
someone who hum is an actual was instant stood on the
other than the length of time to practice what what what constitutes the villages to us
what can meet that
for the religious differences faith in the mind faith in ah
buddha nature
that's pretty big difference is one thing to sit down and calm your mind and it's another thing to have faith in buddha nature and to have you like oriented in that way
it's like
the difference between
hum hum
having a rowboat in a puddle in being a ship in the sea
they're the same the elements is an event and the field is quite different
careless yeah i had a commenter
it's possible to learn
which account for your logical statement of my shape i was kind of snake biofeedback and what kind of state just a comp physiol are yeah say
so for me the
the difference between a machine approach which attempts to from a certain physiological symptoms as a book called and realization response from
dr harper he talks about being relaxed them up at this point the other half is was transmitted by the teacher who those beliefs and attitudes he added it's a very important
exams as such
it's time to a different set of attitudes i think that comes from the transition and that's why you really need a teacher it's not so effective even if an imperfect zazen but you're sitting by yourself in a sangha he will some type of the past and where you can use the same the same result
so when dogan talks about the two main elements of practice or to six thousand and listen to a teacher he's talking about
working with the body and working with attitudes and so much thought or are thinking the edges in one hand and body other kinda balances is what extern
this work was so much like the that have been spirituals movie
you
the attitudes sort of tell you where to go once you come much you do with i promise you said we stand back and watch the world burn and you step in and try to help
what's happening and conflagration
one can be very common yeah very cynical
so very detached since are you can be very calm and a very involved in same price and comes from that though
he's this particular practice seems to know
encourages and titles on
discourage attachment think it's the way doesn't just presented yeah maybe thats good point
hum of with the that gold
you say what
how would you describe what say that concept liberate like realization in all of this
you know this talk about
attitudes to talk about
he talked about the therapeutic aspects of
city fact that long
fact is pouring an important food and orienting high court large
directing our like point from the path all of that but with inanimate this is that literature his papa experience in life experience liberals literally to duration realization
when but wrong as as well enlightenment is more like unifying
however with everything
ha
when your mind as unified with a mind of the universe is no difference
when you experience that unity that's something like enlightenment
he's after to go refracts yeah
that's the goal the practice
when they to me
change a therapeutic aspects
and the religious aspect is me that are truly seemed like it sort of selfish coach inside
champion myself as for me and
i get much deeper me
what i'm trying to me
yeah just as this that something
to help am i agree really say except
if you're an hour his son
say a psychologist is helping someone they can help someone with this work in this way
then it's not so selfish but if someone is just practicing as a self improvement
chemical elements and then it has an aspect of selfishness or centeredness to
which is as
that's a desirable than him but
it's
if that's if that's the level that it's maintained on then it's not a meaningful
when have been helps a person to ah
understand that enough to give up that self silliness and take on the bigger
the practice in more become bigger way than it can be a help to indignantly
so it's hard to judge you know sometimes you say well the thing is good standing
that a thing is a thing that has his good side or as bad science and it can go either way
but i understand what you're saying
a piece of you seen
is going to be kind of like day
i'm
it can't i thought i've go through and chicken i'm kind of like day well sometimes we talk about the great death you know which means giving up on your small ideas about things in common
unifying you make
with everything
is this a with everything just that i whenever i try to get and come in wine tanzanian wines right from you can we afternoon on the jacket
i'm still here
hi julie
check if i got to fit in you know that i'm gonna die
well but when in the morning
no true i think i guess
the hey on this will take a chance
think it is
huh
about coming to practitioner
therapeutic
reason
far and if our problems stem from ah
ah notion of separateness
then the ultimate meal
practice practice of the ultimate package is the ultimate their larvae ah
if if by are coming into identified mind
well a unified nine would ultimately result is the it's the ultimate therapy but we have to be careful of our categories
it because if it's the ultimate therapy they we out one it's therapy
the category is religion
every time
you know if we say if the ultimate therapy than we're dealing with therapy still any with derby
maybe the ultimate therapy but we don't want to substitute categories otherwise on therapy doesn't take us for me
religion religious consciousness takes you it's far as you can go
the therapy is still dealing with it's still on that side of existence
have you deal it returned my therapy doing about the side of existence and will retire in religious terms the existence and non-existence and there's there's just as important for us it's existence
and so on activity you know existence is one side existence is the other side and in our practice where eyes
dear i
we're focusing on the non-existent side in order to balance the existing phone
where is you know we have to look where to be constantly aware of the blank screen in order to understand what the existence of about
so i'm therapy is concerned with existence religion is concerned with existence and non-existence or totality
of life and death and no life and death
how big or subject
so if i'm over again to be very careful that a religious practice doesn't turn
into opium
i'm going to a utilitarianism
jim voluntary the windows to state
the opium a it's a panacea for all your ills
i get you some
i can fantasy about
that am
i will hold you are fun and until the time when you finally gone
some fairytale
and on the other side and i we shouldn't say that is gonna of all your ills
and then religious practices a of
see yourself in reality
for good or bad or proletariat means
main event may be terrible and a good but at least it's within the realm of accuracy
hanzo you know we're always finding that accuracy noise it's not that you know if you do a few
ah know the right things then you'll be okay
if finding out the right things moment by moment you're finding the added accuracy
in reality and each moment and if you don't have it on this moment that you don't have it and if you have it on this moment he added
so it's not like
he really safe you have to find it every moment you have to know where your app every moment
huh
ha
and i'm going to say something the vagner my that to keep the categories of chance
there isn't it
i agree i agree very much the categorization comment
so from a conventional point of view
another is to
two categories
i think that there's there's a unifying there's a unifying theme around them and both and s and guess i would call it alienation or the attempted
and
ha
solve the problem with the alienation
and then it
it in the category of of therapy that
the the alienation that's trying to be corrected is and within ourselves sir you know within the mind it
between cells within a within ourselves
religious level and the alienation that's being addressed as between
a person and work
thanks that transcend ourselves guide or
no existence nine existence
but what seems
difficult for me in terms of its maintain that conversation is it that that almost seems very judeo christian that said that separates in one of the things that i could i'd appreciate it very much in getting friends and and sitting buddhism is the insight that
ha
the attempted to
ha
address alienation with more with the universe and the the alienation between ourselves and and the rest of the world is not really separate from the problem of addressing the alienation within ourselves
that you know that finding the remind
we take their some equipped
there's if there's a real relationship between trying to address one for the alienation and the other one so the categories breakdown
so
who will ultimately there their no categories yeah but if you that's that's the one side the other side of is that everything is at some place
so you have to talk about their opinion february religion and to talk about the various categories if you understand that you're okay if you only understand categories
know then you start alienating everything and that's one of our problems is that most innovative and especially in our western culture we don't
ha understand the unity underneath everything course everything is there are no candidate ultimately and we need to know that and act out of it that's the wide screen but at the same time and have all these categories and we are to respect them
conserve hum
we know how far something you go and some certain direction according to its in know tall trees or town small trees are small this is the very important understanding in buddhism
small tree is small in a tall tree is tall and a little rock is smart and a bigger out has been in and young are equal
a perfect equality

that's how are you know if this year are working on a job and someone is the boss
and here
janitor
in boston his work perfectly and you do you were completely are all equal
but if you if you're if you're the gender and you want to be the boss then immediately you introduce inequality in that situation
it's a simplistic very simple thing i don't i you can argue by the in various ways
we need to understand the point
ha
so anyway there are boundaries to everything and it's no problem
and then practice can be the ultimate therapy
but therapies therapy religion religion
can we have to respect to me
am
instead had to stand that the second category
can i think it not quite the screen or so black and white on
male thirty now at its best with are so concerned with that system
well yes we have done so maybe that's the fun
yeah oh yes
her ultimate mission trap all the categories
but me leave them
we have to inspect him
so both things are going over the same time

citizen yeah