Whenever I hear music, especially beautiful music, not all the time, but sometimes I think, geez, I wish when I, since I have to speak so often, I wish I could find a way to get out there in words, the way music gets out there. and be occasionally as persuasive as the music. But right now I'm waiting to be persuaded by you. By the way, since you I've heard a couple of complaints that it's too long and I'm going to leave for 50 days.

[01:02]

No, that's not the reason. I agreed some months ago to go to a cello a recital concert with this young Argentinian who lives in Basel. And I'd seldom do anything like this with Sophia. And of course there aren't very many concert halls in Crestone. So anyway, since Gisela has been giving Sophia cello lessons, the few times we're here, we agreed to...

[02:08]

We asked her and she agreed we go here to this concert. So at least for the last part of our discussion, I thought I should turn it over to Paul and Katrin. So Paul has something to do before he leaves on Monday for the New World. Okay, so please tell me something. Yes. I really do want to let you know that your words do reach interesting fields in all musicals. I wasn't looking for that. But it's often nice to hear. I don't think that you were looking for that, but I thought that...

[03:18]

All right, support. Since we spoke about Sangha and joint intentions, And I want to just say something which I really so strongly noticed during the concert And I asked myself, why do I feel so comfortable, so pleasant to listen to music with all of us together? We're very accustomed to concert evenings and music in the house. So it's often I have the feeling it's, you know, it's this certain kind of people who enjoy music and then there's something we call Schöngeist.

[05:08]

It's about beauty mind or something like that. But it's art and beauty. It's expression in German. Schöngeist. Sounds good. It's not so bad. It's not so bad. It's not so bad. For artists, it's a little bit artificial for people who think they're in the world. I see. Educated people. Educated people. Well, that's us, isn't it? Yeah. To enjoy the beauty of art. Yeah. And we can just thoroughly explore. And we could be people who know art. And I think the reason why we can thoroughly enjoy this here is because we do not exclude anything We really don't The whole world is included in here There is nothing which is not about to be here

[06:41]

Could you write us next brochure? Okay, thank you very much, Kosti. Posing questions, the first thought I had... that they don't necessarily have to have the same views, but for some parts. That not all views are shared, but only some views. I thought you understood Austrinitas. Oh dear, so now you say it again, because now it makes more sense.

[08:01]

Well, with Darwin and Jim Yannis, they have been in the market for so long now, and there may be much more news So Da Wu and Yun-Yang have been practicing for such a long time together that they've really developed sharing the same views. And that their meeting is a process of their opinion. In a Sangha like ours, which is a little bit looser knit, it's changing. Go ahead. So some views are very much so shared and some other views are really less shared.

[09:02]

I thought about what this world view or what could be shared there. And then I thought, what is it, what is being shared? What I completely feel as a sharing of a part is sitting together. As an experience to sit together. Oh, the experience of sitting in one room together. And I think this is a very strong connection with people, and if you've once sat as a sheen together with somebody, it's something very intimate.

[10:13]

Even if you don't speak to them the whole week. Yes? When the question was posed this morning, it occurred to me, and it's an idea that I had before, but it seemed to be very appropriate then. You said that a human life, if I remember correctly, is a sort of emergence in the midst of divergence. Then it seems to me that people who share their lives, like we do in the Sangha, are precipitating a convergence on a even deeper level that we probably don't even fathom or are not even aware of, that there is a dynamic that reaches beyond what we are conscious of. Yes, in German, please. The question you asked me this morning, or the day before, is also a thought that I already had, but Roshi said that in human life there is a kind of, what was it called, convergence?

[11:27]

Convergence, I see, when you lead together. When you lead together, you strive for each other. Yes. and if that is the case, which I also believe, then when people live their lives as they like, Yeah, we're not just formed people spending time together. We're people forming, forming time together. Yeah. And so far, people have emphasized what's the great things about Zaza.

[12:55]

No. Zanga. Zanga. Zanga, sorry. Now I want to say something against. No, not against, but to complete it. Okay. Can I leave? No, go ahead. Sangha gives steadiness to me. Steadiness in my intention. Especially as a lay person, I... I'm more easily threatened to lose intention.

[14:00]

And I'm anyways in the bottle with the... And I do notice my wish that I'd like to be physically closer to Sangha. That is my wish. But on the other hand, I'm also pleased that there is non-sangha somewhere. Because I don't want incestuous structures. So, I do notice also who I am. with the other side that I'm not in the Sangha.

[15:19]

So I also have friends, intelligent, interesting people who do not have anything of practice of Zazen or anything like that. And the changes that are possible here, I think, become more mature when this input from the outside also comes and stays. So I think the changes that are occurring or starting here, I think they get mature if that impulse from the outside remains. You know, some people say, well, why do you do this sitting if it anyways only... makes pain um otherwise you seem like quite a normal person um and it is important that is but exactly that's also why i do need sangha you know um

[16:25]

Sangha is hard to define. The conception of Sangha can be everyone, all sentient beings. And it can mean those who practice together or those who share vows and views together. And we don't know what a Sangha will be. I mean... You know, coming to Europe, I didn't intend to even start practicing with people in Europe.

[17:48]

It's just happened. And what's happened is, I think we have to say, a European lay sangha. And so many of us have been practicing together for so long. It's definitely a sun. But what did... How it will continue and develop, I don't know. But it's happening. And some teachers take the view of consciously Sangha building. But I don't. I'm much more interested in just to see what happens. I had a conversation once with His Holiness the Dalai Lama and I asked him if he would accept the idea that somehow perhaps a Sangha is a Bodhisattva.

[19:03]

In other words, a particular Sangha may manifest in society a feeling of compassion or wisdom or something like that, or both? compassion or wisdom. He said, I mean, why would he disagree with me? But anyway, he agreed with me. But I read that, or someone told me, I can't remember, that Thich Nhat Hanh a while ago said, the next Buddha may be a Sangha. So all of this means we don't quite know what a Sangha is. But it's definitely not a cult. Yeah, and a cult would be People only knew each other and excluded others.

[20:42]

Saga is always conceived of as a permeable unit in the middle of a society. The concept is most people are not going to practice. And a large percentage of people will be always captured by greed, hate and delusion. Of course, not everyone, but many. And that sagas should function as a group of people who try to live as well as possible within the society. So the concept of Sangha includes the non-Sangha. So to say that Sangha is all, the whole population really, all sentient beings is...

[21:43]

an attitude, but it's not the dynamic. The dynamic is the difference. Okay. Anyone else? Yes. So there were two main points that came up in the discussion. One is that you cannot separate the three treasures. Along with Sangha comes the Buddha and the Buddha. Either if you like one or two, but you don't like the other, they come in a package. And the second one was that the Sangha is not a group of friends.

[23:12]

And it came that in a moment that We don't know each other. At least I met, except you, I met everybody here for like five days or less. And we don't, at least I don't know even the first name of most of the people. But it was the expression that we know each other deeply but unconsciously Not through consciousness Yeah, one thing I certainly like about practicing is I practice with people.

[24:18]

My life would not join together as friends, but the best relationships I have are not with my friends, actually. Don't tell them. They're actually the people I practice with. Yes. Yes. Yes. What Alan said and what you said, I really liked. And I call this the silent wind. As Alan says it's limitlessly deep but we don't know where it comes from.

[25:46]

Here, and it's . But this third jewel is sparkling. So . So looking forward, in meeting in the silent we, we will not have problems with new isms and salvation theories. Everyone has this. If we meet in this depth, it will at some point express itself.

[27:03]

You will. Fritz's practice life has been primarily formed in the Tibetan Sun. As Uli, too. Although her cooking developed here, I think. And Janus in... Romanian and Hungarian Sangha, and Yogan Roshi in the French Deshimaro Sangha, then it's great, we can all practice it together and there's definitely a feeling of power together.

[28:12]

And I was struck, you know, I know His Holiness the Dalai Lama pretty well. And I've spent a lot of time with Thich Nhat Hanh. And of course I've spent my whole life with Sukhiroshi in some sense. And what struck me being with him Is there much more like each other than they are like Vietnamese or Japanese or Tibetan? It's really true. They're very similar persons in some fundamental sense and they're more alike than they are with their countrymen.

[29:26]

Okay. Yes. That the Sangha does not end with those who practice in a narrow sense, I can deduce from my professional environment. in swiss the people who practice in its center i can confirm with my professional experience um Social worker and psychologist. People who get their attention, work with other people and engage in their intentions. And then, of course, they ask me where I've been gone for a week. They say, what? Where the heck were you? And I tell them about the Koran and so on.

[30:46]

Tell them about the Koran. And that's interesting. And then they feel interested. I can't read the Koran. Don't show it to them. Don't show it to them. But the reaction is that they say they find it very interesting. The reaction though is that they think it's very interesting. I don't understand a thing, but it's really interesting. There must be something to it. And there on a lower or more profound level, there's some kind of ground that also kind of fertilizes what we're doing here. Yeah, I think so too. I'd like to turn over the platform right now to Paul and Katrin.

[31:51]

And unfortunately, Paul, I drank out of this glass of water. But yours is pristine. Is it OK with you? Sure. Thank you for letting me do this with Sophia and Luis. And so I have a cocktail. I probably will. And because the kitchen has to know when the food should be ready and so maybe we can tell the kitchen when we want to have a supper. It's a quarter to six. Usually we end a quarter to six.

[32:51]

So what's the end of a quarter to six? What's the time now? 25 to 20. Then we don't have much time. 25 minutes. 25 minutes? Okay? It's up to you. Then we stay on the schedule. Yeah, please. The schedule is getting late. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. So please continue.

[34:10]

In the discussion group before that, it became clear to me again in the small group it became clear to me again. And we heard a lot about the mind of Dao Wu and Yang. And we can assume, I think, that they had something to do with Sangha. And what impresses me is that there is no or doesn't seem to be any ego, no, no self there.

[35:13]

And I can feel a great liberty or freedom. It seems to me that not even the thought of being offended could appear. And we also through practice and through the tool of practice or through practice have the tool to reach a similar freedom Sometimes I ask myself, how many hundreds of years do I need to approach this state? In a couple of comments that were made, conscious connection or prior to discriminating and discerning connection we may feel.

[36:58]

It's almost as though we're being created by and with each other. Being created, we are. So when there's a sound that people make, it's like we're making the sound. And if there's an accident, it's like we can feel we made the accident. Where the bell is hit really well, we can feel our hitting the bell. When the bell is hit really well, then we can feel that we have hit the bell together well.

[38:09]

So a lot of it for me is about this continually being created by one another not me creating myself or someone else and a permeability being open to that and that doesn't take hundreds of years maybe to refine and perfect it but to enter into that feeling doesn't take hundreds of years but to enter this feeling, it doesn't take that long. It always happened to me when I was driving away from here after a session,

[39:24]

what has always happened to me when I had to leave here after the session or the seminar, that for me that has always been very painful. and it has to do with this feeling of connection that happens or arises almost like in secret. It's not talked about much and it's not so explicit, but it's always there. So on one hand there is this very deep connection that arises with the other people in the Sangha

[40:28]

And on the other hand there is the opposite of Sangha in everyday life, at work and where one lives. And with opposite of Sangha I want to refer to how practice is supported or not supported. It starts with schedules, wherever there are schedules. It also goes to what you do in the evenings, where your priorities are, what is important and what you do in the evening. So to practice in everyday life one needs time, so one doesn't join the others when they go out, and so one can turn into an outsider or a kind of outsider.

[41:55]

For a long time I almost fought with the idea or that I was sorry that I couldn't arrange it, that I could stay here for a longer period of time. But ever since these last two years where there were many crises and big crises in my professional life and all around in my life, Something very curious has happened. And I join you in what you said. Because by now I can see the positive side.

[43:40]

Because it provides an area to rub against and to use it as practice. And by now I really feel that it enriches me or my life that I can switch between here and this other everyday. And I see and feel it's a huge field for practice possibilities. I think this feeling of connection It doesn't make sense for it to end at the door to Johanneshof.

[45:00]

And I think in a very practical way for many of us, we can't be here without the support of other people. The family, the friends, the people we work with. Even we joked recently, I mean, all the people in Baden-Württemberg that pay taxes to make this road allows us now. Everybody in Baden-Württemberg is supporting your practice. Forced. They are forced. They don't know. They don't know. But the kind of feeling, particularly in our small group, we talked about Sesshin, we talked about this feeling that you don't like to part from.

[46:24]

And how we know each other apart from our stories. and support each other. This feeling is extended in this kind of back and forth dynamic you talked about, Dirk talked about. Sometimes I have the feeling that this feeling of connection does not arise from the shared intentions and views,

[47:34]

but from the fact that we try to express this and try to manifest the effort. and for her that she could feel this effort in a meeting with somebody else has most changed her. Rather than the intention behind it itself or the view or whatever. What is also very important to me in the Ranga is that we do not only embrace each other by showing that we like each other on a very deep level,

[49:03]

What is important for me is not only that we take care of each other and show how we like each other and take care of each other. but that there is also the readiness to show the broom and to scrape it in your face. He was associating that. It's basically somebody who is very ready to get their claws out and can be bit like a cat like a cat this is to the point it's actually twice to explain to you what it means

[50:43]

But she can't do it better. To the point. We can say it. Okay, so my point is that we can say these things to each other. On a deeper level. When I notice that I get lost in my ego trip somewhere. Or whatever. somebody will show a broom in my face. And I'm really grateful for that. [...] You can go to people and say, I feel really shit at the moment.

[52:08]

and they don't turn their heads and say, oh, poor you, and they don't nurture your ego by supporting you, oh, you're so poor, but they look at you, what is, they really ask you, what is it? And I think that's wonderful, that you really get to say things very honestly, and that people listen to you honestly. I think that's wrong. Translation? What did I say? Some people are honest and they don't say only poor thing, they say what's the matter and they listen and I mean they truly listen. So it's really direct and honest and open but the ego is not for that.

[53:18]

In the commentary of the Qom, it talks about Yunyan raising the broom as cutting off complications. This kind of activity that you're talking about for me is addressed by this phrase, to cut off complications. And what you just talked about, I think, is exactly to eliminate the complications. I would like to comment on something Roshi said at the very beginning about lay Sangha and monk Sangha. And I wondered why I like it so much to come to Johannesrup as I'm coming from Sangha in Göttingen.

[54:34]

And I asked myself, what might be the difference in quality? And I think this is the aspect of our experience here, that we partly have long monastic experience in Christendom or wherever else, And I think one aspect is that many of us have monastic practice experience in Crestana, some place else. And also that here, when we are here together in the winter branches we share a monastic life or lifestyle at least during these weeks. And this kind of life itself teaches qualities that one cannot teach in the lay Sangha in the city.

[55:58]

So Gerald has had the idea that he would like to send some of his students here for several weeks so they can live and experience for themselves what it is like to live this kind of life. And I can talk about all kinds of things in my seminars and lectures, but it doesn't reach them. It's just words. And I've noticed that those who've come here and they understand to some extent what I'm talking about.

[57:32]

So it is a quality which is very difficult to describe But it has to do with this living together with this schedule, with this discipline. And I find the same quality either here or Preston or San Francisco or Japan. It's the same quality and everywhere, whenever, wherever. Wherever I go, here or there, I feel the same and the same feeling of being kind of home, being home in this quality. And this quality can be generated everywhere when people come together with the same intentions.

[59:09]

I would like to add something to what Gerhard said. And when you talk about how difficult it is to leave on Sunday, and when you talk about the experience you've had here in this week, I have to say that what we've experienced here in this week or what happens in a session or in a seminar, I have to admit it's almost not to be endured.

[60:37]

longer, I mean for weeks and weeks and weeks. So this is a very important part of the Sangha. It's a very important part of the Sangha because the lay Sangha couldn't exist without these events like Sushino week like this or seminar. Sangha is also when on Monday we are only three or four people here and we just follow our regular everyday schedule with some relief. And this is at the same time an invitation.

[61:44]

To get to know Johanneshof from that side. To get to know Johanneshof from that side. And not to be filled to the brim in a week like this, but to come here in our everyday life and practice and to experience that, because that also is an aspect of Sangha and also lay Sangha. And it is interesting, when I go away, and some people describe it, when you go away, or when I am on the road. And it is interesting, when I go away from here, and some other people describe it also, when they go away from here.

[62:56]

Then there is also this feeling of Sangha, now they sit, or now the bell goes away, or now it is this or that, and that is also Sangha. And then there is the memory and the feeling of now they are sitting zazen and now the bell is rung and that's also Sangha. And since we had phone conversations in the story, the memory comes up of the film. The film, the story made about the two men who happened to be in the Japanese monastery and had to do everything like the monks. My dad used to sit in a Tokyo bar with a beer, but suddenly they look at the watch and say, oh, now they're doing salsa.

[64:01]

And that's sangha, too. I've always been here for seven weeks. Four weeks, not for one week or four days. And it is also clear to me that this has brought a lot of connection. Working with this in normal everyday life, when there are only a few of us here, and I have to take care of myself a bit, I think the connection has always been great. I can't really say that about the whole group. So, her experience of being here in our everyday life for several weeks She feels that that especially has given her this feeling of connection and the feeling of Sangha almost more than an intense week like this.

[65:32]

and I find it really useful to be here for weeks and to share this life because on my own I could never generate this When I started to practice it was at Tassajara, the monastery that Suzuki Roshi founded with Baker Roshi. But I also then moved to the San Francisco Zen Center and had a job. But so we had a morning schedule and an evening schedule. And then during the day I went to, I worked in a cabinet shop.

[66:35]

And when Suzuki Roshi wasn't at Tassajara, he was at the Zen Center in San Francisco. And he'd eat dinner with us every night. So I'd see him in the Zendo, but I'd also get to eat dinner with him. And there was a long table with five seats on each side. And he'd sit in the center of the table. And I'd sit on the far right-hand side, my good ear side.

[67:45]

And maybe every two weeks he would turn and say, ask me something, what do you think about this? And for me the constancy of being with him in this situation, as well as this endo, had a different but in some way equally profound effect on my practice sticking. I feel as much as we can to do both is best. But it's hard because so many of you have commitments you can't, many people can't take this So it's how to make the kind of experience that Kiyosensei is talking about to stick in our lives, not just when it's in our face, but how it sinks into our posture and our body.

[69:22]

and how the activity carries from our sitting together into our life. And we're already about 12 minutes beyond our promise. And now we have the time, our promise, already 12 minutes over. So, but... It's one thing, I'm bursting for that stage, I'm really, really sorry. Okay. I have to make room, I really have to get going now. The intention is not so important when you come together. Did you have that? Yes, that's important. But could we please sit for a couple of minutes together?

[70:25]

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