Good morning. During my talk, you don't have to sit in rigid rows behind each other. If you can't see, move. So you can sit anywhere you want. I just want to let you know that. So today, we're going to take up the lines of the Sandokai, page 63, all the objects of the senses interact and you do not. Interacting brings involvement, otherwise each keeps its place. So objects and senses interacting and not interacting. there is consciousness.

[01:11]

So those three, as you know, are the keys to cognition. In order to see, there has to be an organ, and we call that one the eye. The eye actually doesn't see. The eye is a channel for seeing. So the channel for seeing, we call that the eye. And then there has to be an object. So right now, Lori is the object of the apple of my eye. The object of my eye. And then consciousness says, I learned this. I didn't know it was lorine until I learned it was lorine. But I think it's lorine.

[02:15]

Provisionally. Provisionally it's lorine. So we see, we hear something and then we have an object for hearing which creates consciousness. So the object, the organ and the consciousness there except in imagination. So all the objects of the senses are interacting, but yet each thing keeps its own place. So interacting brings involvement through interaction of the senses and the objects. It's a difficult have to think about it, what he's actually saying. So interacting brings involvement.

[03:19]

Interacting of object, subject, and consciousness. And otherwise, each keeps its own place. So in other words, everything is interdependent, is what he's saying. There's nothing that's independent because, as we see, It takes all of these elements in order to actually cognize something, much less all the things that are cognized are also interdependent. So we say that nothing is absolutely independent, because everything, of course, as we know, is interdependent with everything else. But at the same time, when I say Lori, Lori is independent, and I am independent at the same time. So dependency and independency at the same time. So if we think everything is interdependent, then we say, well, there's no inherent self in things because everything is simply a conglomeration.

[04:32]

But at the same time, we feel independent. The microphone is independent, even though it's interdependent. you are independent even though you're interdependent. So both are at the same time. This is just another way of talking about Sandokai. So when Sekito is talking about this, he's looking at it from various perspectives. So we have to learn our world. We say, well, the world is given to us as it is, but there are elements in the world, but things are not given as it is because we make it up. We create the world through our thinking mind. When we're born, we don't know anything, even though we know everything.

[05:42]

Everything is known, but we don't know what it is that we know. So we have to learn perspective. Babies don't know perspective. They just see things in a world. Just put yourself in a place and you're just born and you open your eyes and there's something seen. but there's no thought about it. So you have to learn, you touch things, you touch your mom, and you touch this and that, and then you learn to think about what it is that you're touching, seeing, feeling. So this learning goes in various ways.

[06:46]

Things are tiny over there, and they're big over here. But when you go over there, they're big. And then you look back, and they're tiny over here. What does that mean? It's not really so. It just appears to be so. So perspective is very interesting. There are people who don't really learn perspective. I remember when I was in Tehuantepec many years ago, back in the 50s. And there was an artist, American artist, and her husband doing that. And she said, when I show them paintings of perspective, they don't understand the perspective. They've never learned that kind of, to identify that as perspectives. They learn it. They can learn it. But we have to learn it, too. It's not something that we automatically think is there. Strangely enough. Because if you don't learn perspective, you look at something and it's very tiny over there.

[07:59]

I remember when we used to drive, when I was about three, and I would look out the back window as the car was driving, I would look at the mountains, and the mountains were getting bigger and bigger. And I thought, gee, we're traveling away from the mountains. They should be getting smaller and smaller. But they're getting bigger and bigger because my view is getting bigger. As we move away, you see more of the mountain. It's an inverse perspective. So anyway, we don't see things. I mean, we do see things as it is, but we also see things in an illusory way. And that's just one example. There's a blind person who's never seen anything. and only has an idea about what seeing is, and then he becomes, they do an operation and he can actually see. But what he sees is not what we see, because he's never learned to see. He has never learned to see, so when he's 40 or 50 and he sees the world, but it's not what he imagined, and he doesn't, has no idea of perspective.

[09:11]

He has no idea what, you know, And then he just wishes he was blind. This is true. That's a true story. Many blind people are very happy that they're blind. Actually, they can't see. I remember reading to you by Jacques Bousteyran, who lost his sight at about eight. And although he had seen before, you know, he learned how to see without eyes. And he was very happy seeing without eyes because for him he could see much more than people with eyes. Because people with eyes are fooled by seeing. And he wasn't fooled by seeing.

[10:15]

He talks about that. He was the head of the So, tastes are also learned. I remember when I was a kid, my parents would eat cold beet borscht with sour cream. How can people actually eat that? And now I love it. But it's because they learned the taste. You say my tastes change. Of course. But we do learn the taste to eat things that we didn't like as a kid.

[11:18]

Oatmeal? Oh my god. Why do people eat oatmeal? I have a question about relationships and how that might relate to your talk on perspectives. From our perspective, others seem small. Their ideas, their wonders, their troubles, whatnot. But from their perspective, it's very large. So, how does one gain the perspective of another in order to see it as they see it? Yeah, Dogen calls that identity action.

[12:24]

You identify with the other person. And if one feels like when they're walking it's too tight, you can put on their shoes and feel the tightness. But what you just said, it feels more, is more subtle. Doesn't really get into another's So, this is how we learn compassion. Because, you know, I don't like this, and I don't like this guy, and I don't like that. But at the same time, you have to go around to the other side and see things from that other perspective.

[13:27]

Or, how did this happen that this person turns out to be this way? It's really important in relationship to understand where this person is coming from. this person. If you go to visit people in jail, in prison, you have to learn something about their experience in life that causes these aberrations. So then you can have compassion. Then you can actually relate to the person. But we're all prisoners. So how do we relate to each other as prisoners? That's what the Dharma is about. It's freeing people from their prisons. So that's the skill, actually. Skill in how we help people in prison.

[14:30]

That's one reason, I think, why Buddhists are drawn to helping people in prison. either knowingly or unknowingly. So, all the objects of the senses interact, and yet do not. Interacting brings involvement, otherwise each thing keeps its place. So, in the last talk, That is usual. The characteristic of Buddhist teaching is to go beyond things, beyond various beings, ideas, and material things. When we say truth, we usually mean something we can figure out. The truth that we can figure out or think about is G, on the phenomenal side.

[15:33]

When we go beyond subjective and objectivity, the oneness of inside and outside. So, Chi, of course, is the phenomenal side. Re is the noumenal side. So, if you get stuck in one side or another, that's duality. That's what I talked about yesterday. People think, well, if I try to get rid of the phenomenal side and just stay with the noumenal side, I'll be enlightened. But that, as Sekito says, that's not enlightenment either. So, ri is ji and ji is ri. The phenomenal is the noumenal and noumenal is phenomenal. That's why we don't talk about spiritual practice. Because spiritual practice is sweeping the ground, taking out the garbage, washing the dishes.

[16:35]

It's not something separate or higher than sweeping the ground and taking out the garbage. Cleaning the toilet is the highest practice. We don't make this distinction. Otherwise, we fall into a world of duality. This is better than that. Having a high spiritual practice is better than having a mundane practice. That's not the practice. It's all the same, even though it's all different. This is what's important. So when we say truth, we usually mean something we can figure out. We want to be with the truth. But actually, we're with the delusion. But the truth manifests through the delusion. So the truth that we can figure out, or think about, or want,

[17:40]

spirituality is on the phenomenal side. So, when we go beyond subjective and objective worlds, we come to the understanding of the oneness of everything. So, if we're talking about oneness of everything, why are we dividing it into good and bad, spiritual and material? We don't do that. duality. So that's why, just turn to compost with all your might. Just be totally involved in turning to compost. Just be totally involved in washing the toilet. That's why the Susso, the head monk in the practice period, either just washes the toilets or takes out the compost. That's their job. It's not

[18:47]

It's humbling, but then enlightenment is the humble position. Anybody that struts around thinking they're enlightened, you know that's total delusion. But someone that's happy, washing the toilet, contented, washing the toilet, contented, sweeping the ground, is an enlightened practice. So you may not find your enlightenment with a teacher who's, you know, sitting on the platform. But if you watch people who are doing the mundane activities, that's where you find the enlightenment. But if I divide that in two, that's delusion. The guy sitting up there giving the talk is also enlightened. So, we come to understand, when we go beyond subjective and objective worlds, we come to the understanding of the oneness of everything, the oneness of subjectivity and objectivity, the oneness of inside and outside, before discrimination.

[20:00]

So, for instance, when you said Zazen, when you said Zazen you were not thinking about anything. Then he's talking about when you said ideally, when you sit sadhana. When you sit sadhana, you're not thinking about anything or watching anything. It doesn't mean that thoughts are not arising or that there's nothing seen, but you're not trying to bring something into your consciousness in order to discriminate it. Thoughts are just passing by, like everything is passing by. and you're not watching anything. Maybe your eyes are seeing the wall, but they're not trying to see the wall. They're not trying to see that spot, or that spider, or that castle, or whatever it is. You know all this. Your focus is four or five feet ahead of you, but you're not purposely watching some special thing.

[21:08]

Even though many ideas come, we don't think about them. They come in and go out, that's all. We don't entertain various ideas. We don't invite them there to stay or serve food to them or anything like that. If they come in, okay. If they go out, okay. That's all. That is Zazen. When we practice in this way, even though we do not try, our mind includes everything. There's no purpose in it. There's no purpose other than just doing. That's shikantaza, that's jijiyu zamae, that's komyozo zamae. All the samadhis are contained in zazen because you're not trying to do anything.

[22:13]

And because you're not trying to do anything, whatever is there is simply imagination, imagine a new quality about who you are. So if you can lose something, you don't have it. You can't lose something that really belongs to you. It's not possible to lose something that belongs to you. And what we can lose doesn't really belong to us. Fundamentally. So everything is free to come and go. That's Zazen. We don't try to hang on to something, and we don't try to avert something. Whatever comes, okay?

[23:13]

Bye, goodbye. Bye, goodbye. But we worry over things, all my emotions, and all my thoughts, and crying in my mind, and I'm feeling this and that. It's really hard to sit when you've got a lot of emotional baggage. When you've got a lot of feeling baggage and a lot of mental baggage, it's really hard to sit. But that's a good time to sit. It just loops around in your mind. None of you have experienced that, I know. That's all there is. But it's okay. Because you're not hanging on to anything, even though you feel that you are. It just goes around, that's all. So, this is a no-gaining idea. You would like to lose all that stuff.

[24:16]

So it's kind of like, you know, if we can apply that to our life, then our life is practice. You know, we set ourselves up dependent on many things, and when this dependency starts to crumble, all the many things start to disintegrate, or they're no longer helping, But we can't access them, then we start to suffer. So then we realize how much stuff we have used to support and create this persona. And when it starts to crumble, go away, and not work well, then we start suffering. So that helps us to see, if we are careful, we can see, do we really need all this? to prop up and create what I think I am.

[25:27]

So in Zazen, we just let go of everything. It's all gone, except it's still there. It's in our mind and our feelings. But the more you suffer in Zazen, the more help it is. I hate to say that, but... There are some meditations, most meditations, where you get comfortable, you know. Because you want to feel good. Meditation should make you feel good. Peace. Blessings. This is not untrue of Zazen, but the thing is that we have to get through all the garbage before that can actually happen. I don't mean get rid of the garbage. The way to deal with pain is to totally open up to it.

[26:31]

When you totally open up to it, you and the pain are one and there's no opposite. The only time pain is a problem is when there's an opposite. Opposition. I don't like this. I don't want this. Oh my God, here it comes. It was so good a few minutes ago, and now, terrible. That's because we don't like it. As soon as you don't like it, you suffer. So, Buddha's, the Four Noble Truths, just the Four Noble Truths. Human beings are subject to suffering. And the reason is because of desire. I want this, I don't want that. I like this, I don't like that.

[27:35]

I want to have that, and I can't have it. I don't want to have this, and I have it. These are the causes of suffering. And it just comes right up in your face during satsang. So it's really, satsang is about the form of truth. It's about other things as well. Basically, basic Buddhism. So how do you let go of desire? We think of desire as wanting something, wanting things, but it's much broader than that. It's wanting to be comfortable. And we can't figure out how to be comfortable Because as much as we try to be comfortable, soon producing that comfort turns into discomfort. Comfort turns into discomfort. If you sit on those beautiful cushions and we lie down on those, a half hour later, we have to change our position.

[28:40]

But in Zazen, you don't change your position. You just change your insides. So you just open yourself to what's there. and you no longer resist or grasp. You simply allow yourself to float leisurely through every state. You just float leisurely through every state. As soon as you start to resist, you create a problem. As soon as you start to hold on, you create a problem. Then you catch yourself, oh yeah, I'm holding on. Or, oh yeah, I'm resisting. And then you let go. So you just keep letting go, continuously. Continuously letting go. And accepting everything as it is. Yes? Firewood doesn't turn into ash.

[29:45]

Firewood turns into ash. Firewood becomes ash. It does. But it doesn't mean that the firewood is before and the ash is after. So when you said comfort turns into discomfort... Yeah, okay, literally I said that. But comfort is comfort, discomfort is discomfort. It doesn't matter. It changes. The feeling changes. The same feeling can be either comfortable or uncomfortable. So you have a feeling, and then you say, this is just this feeling. This is a sensation. Or you can say, this feeling is uncomfortable. You can say either one.

[30:46]

I mean, it's beyond what you say. It's how you accept either one. Yeah, so it's the same feeling. But someone will run away from it, and someone other will luxuriate in it. I have to say this. Whenever you do labor instruction when you're going to have a baby, they do a lot of talking about how it's not really pain, it's just muscle contraction. But there is a point where the nerve endings are all going off at the same time. It's not pain. It's pain. But pain is simply a sensation. Pain is not suffering. But pain, we can see pain as suffering. We can see pain as suffering, or we can see pain as liberation. But there's some pain.

[31:46]

Yeah, that's right. There's some pain that's beyond the pale. Yes, that's true. And your breathing, and your visualization, and all that. No matter what you do, it's like, right. That's right. But when you learn, this is something you learn. When you learn to let go, you can accept much more intensity than ordinarily. So what is the difference between pain and suffering? Desire. So the woman wants to have a child, but it will be painless. A what? The woman wants to have a child, but it will be painless. Yeah, well, you know the... Careful. Yeah, careful. I don't have one yet, so I can tell you. Someone else can tell you. So in other words, he wants it to be different from what it is.

[32:52]

Yes, that's right. Maybe that could happen. More power to you. What you don't have to deal with, what you can avoid, fine. But even though you can avoid something, in the end you can't avoid everything. you get divorced because then you want to alleviate your pain, right? Then you marry somebody else. Then you realize, it's the same pain I had when I was married to that other person. Because it's all about you, it's not about the other person. So he says, When we practice in this way, even though we don't try, our mind includes everything. So what he's talking about is big mind accepting everything.

[33:53]

Whatever happens in Zazen happens in big mind and not in small mind. That's what he's talking about. Can I add just for myself? There's pain and then what you add to pain. That's really what you're saying. there's still the pain, and then there's your not wanting the pain, or whatever you feel like. That's right. So most of the time we're exaggerating. And we're exaggerating inside, and there's not enough to think about. That's why it's so difficult. Because a little bit of pain is what you focus on. And so it becomes really big, and we just get bigger and bigger and bigger, until it overwhelms you. But it doesn't have to do that, because it's your imagination that's making it bigger and bigger.

[34:57]

There is some intensity that's actually happening, but most of the time it's our imagination saying something, convincing us, because we don't like it. We don't like it. Just to say the other side, which actually verifies what you're saying, there are people who, when they have pain, ignore the pain, push the pain away, and that actually causes more pain, because the body is sending a signal that there's pain for a reason. And so there's being real about what's really happening. So it's more difficult, because you can't just make it go away. You really do have to accept all of it. But most of the time, if you try to make it go away, that creates the problem. Trying to make it go away creates the problem. So if you're not trying to make it go away, then you have to deal with it.

[36:01]

And then that's the go on. How do you deal with it? You can't stay, and you can't leave. And what gives is you open yourself up. You're no longer resistant. I think it becomes an even better, I don't know if the term is an analogy to childbirth. Childbirth is a good analogy. Yeah. And it's like, this thing will work for me. And you do open to it. It does go away. But it's also in zazen. We talk about in zazen instruction, putting our attention on our breath and posture. So we have some choice in all of that. It's all about choice. It's all about choice. You have a choice. Every moment, you have a choice as to what to do. Every single moment, you have a choice. You have to choose. Shall I give in to this?

[37:01]

Shall I don't love? Shall I like it? Shall I not like it? Shall I love? You know, the Lamas and whatever, you know, Like, I remember doing that, you know, and the man holds the wife and she's breathing, you know, learning how to breathe. Well, we're doing the same thing in Satsang, learning how to breathe. Because when push comes to shove and you don't know what to do, you just breathe. You just breathe into it. You just breathe. It's only one breath at a time. And there's no past breath, there's no future breath, there's just this breath. And that satsang, just single-mindedly, the whole body-mind is focused on that one breath. And that's all the pain, you know, you've lost your ability to deal with the pain, and it's just the breath.

[38:05]

And the breath saves you. It's like the breath is like this channel that connects you to the universe. And just one breath at a time. And you're not waiting for the end. You're simply there. And being simply there is called being present. Totally being present. Even though you don't like it. breaks through all dualities. I don't know her name, but the lady that first spoke about childbirth, she said something that I find very meaningful for me, and that is, you know, I have a certain idea of what pain is, and I want to, in some ways, mentally avoid it, and therefore, when there is

[39:10]

pain in my knee, if I can look at it as sensation of pressure, it changes. So it's interesting how a turn can cause avoidance of something that is not yet investigated. Oh, a term. You're using the term pain. Yes. It causes me to avoid it, even before I've looked at it. That's right. So we attach to the words. Yeah. Yeah, the words have meaning. And they influence our psyche. But pain is okay. Suffering is the problem. I probably, if you're sitting, you know, like, I have some sensations in my legs. Because I'm talking, I don't think about it.

[40:12]

But if I stop talking, then I think, oh yeah, there's this and there's that. And, you know, that's an interesting phenomenon. Because my mind is not dwelling on it. When you're dwelling on it, that's the problem. But at the same time, you're not ignoring it. You're not dwelling on it, and you're not ignoring it. It's just there. Is that it, Alan? Yeah. Just a moment ago I was reminded of someone in the RTA group once asked me if suffering, it was a very serious question, is suffering redemptive? I mean, if you're suffering because you killed somebody. In certain religious traditions, it's seen as redemptive.

[41:15]

Oh, I see what you're saying. I said no. Well, I think it's right. You can learn anything from it. I think it's yes. Because Mrs. Singer, she talks about it here, too, probably in this chapter or the next. Through pain we can ease our karma. Pain is one way of easing our karma because it kind of rounds off the edges. It helps us to pay back something. It's a kind of way. It's a payback. It's like, I made you supper. I'll suffer too. And that's a kind of redemptive thing. You can argue with it, or you know, analyze it, or whatever, but it's considered, pain is usually considered redemptive.

[42:19]

You know, it reminds me of this story in Japan, maybe it was someplace else, but it was Japan, where this man had an affair with his married woman and something happened. She died. Maybe he killed her. I don't know. Something like that. He had purposely or accidentally. And as redemption, he said, I'm going to dig a tunnel through this mountain because people who go over the mountain, they fall off. And so I'm going to dig a tunnel through this mountain as a kind of redemptive act. And so he started doing this and the woman's son wanted to find him and kill him. So he came and found where the guy was and he said, you know, I'm here to kill you.

[43:29]

And the man said, okay, I'll let you do that. I won't stop that. But let me dig the tunnel first. So we started digging the tunnel. And the other guy was just standing around. It took months and years probably to dig the tunnel. And so instead of sitting around, why don't you help me? So they dug the tunnel, you know, and by the end they were bonded. So that was an act of redemption on both parts. But again, that's not quite suffering, that's like an act. Well, yeah, that's like redemption, which instead of hanging around suffering,

[44:32]

you're actually doing something. And the redemption is already there. It's not at the end. It's with every shovel hole, which is called practice. Every step is practice, not at the end. You don't get the prize at the end. You get the prize right now, whatever it is. But we don't see that as a prize. It's just ordinary life. Ordinary life is a prize. The enlightenment is to realize that everything that happens to us is wonderful, no matter what it is. I'm not sure this is exactly what you're saying. This is a thought that came to mind. When we do something that causes us to suffer, maybe because it's caused someone else to suffer, but we often feel, on some level, remorse, or, if you will, shame, a wholesome Dharma, shame, or remorse, and it's that which is cleansing. It's that which is redemption.

[45:33]

Oh yes. That's right. Shame and remorse are called the guardians of the world. In the Abhidharma. There's wholesome and unwholesome. Yes, there's wholesome and unwholesome. It's when shame and remorse become indulgent. Yes. So everything has its opposite. Yeah. Let's go. The shadow side. I left out an important element of that question, now that I'm remembering it. This is somebody who was very ill. Is there anything somehow ennobling or purifying about this ordeal that I'm going through?

[46:51]

And it was very poignant and meaningful. And all I could say, which I think was not necessarily How do you work with your suffering? I think that ennobling is something you can't make happen. No, I don't think you can make ennobling, but is it redemptive? I mean, there's some deep question here. It's how you suffer that makes the difference. are always blaming others. That's not ennobling. But people who accept their suffering and don't complain, don't blame, and are simply... It's like Zazen.

[48:11]

What's ennobling about Zazen is being non-dualistic. And people are doing it all over the world. Zazen is not something that we do. It's separate from what other people do. It takes all forms. And it's actually the natural thing. It's the most natural thing. It's not something special. On Saturday was World AIDS Day. Yes. And I saw an interesting documentary called How to Stop a Plague. And people saw their loved ones dying and there was no knowledge of why or if it was infectious and hospitals were turning people away. And it was very very bad time.

[49:14]

And this talked about it, it showed it, and it had wonderful footage, and the founders of ACT UP, I think, somehow redeemed that suffering. Yes. It's how you accept and deal with it that's ennobling. So, sometimes it's called the noble posture. of the Buddha. It's Buddha's practice. That's what makes it ennobling. That's why sit up straight, like Buddha. Feel your noble nature. Just express it. That's why it's called expressing your nature. Not doing anything else but expressing your true nature, which is nobility. Without any sidetracks. If I am a child and I am harmed by someone I trust, how can I work with that suffering?

[50:29]

Well, that's your koan, of course. As a child. As a? A child. A child? Yeah. Well, the first thing, you know, at some point the child will have to come to the place of no blame. As soon as you come to the place of no blame, you can deal with it. As long as you're blaming on circumstances, you can't deal with it. And you'll never find yourself. The only way you can find yourself is forgiveness and no blame. They did this to me. They did that to me. It's all because of them. And we keep going to the psychiatrist and talking about it. Forgiveness and no blame. Then you're on your own. What do I do now? Not, what did I do then? Not, what happened then? You know, practice is about how do I go forward, not what happened to me then. It's not about what happened to me then. It's like, how do I go forward from here?

[51:31]

This is where I was born. I wasn't born back then. That was another life. Even though all of the karma is there. How do I deal with it while I am a child? Same way. Same way, you know, someone has to talk to the child, of course. You don't just leave the child on their own, right? Because you have knowledge of the child. You have to be able to express yourself to the child. And somehow or another you have to convince the child that forgiveness is freedom. captive to your past. And as long as you're captive to your past, your suffer, you think that it's all important. The most important thing is redeeming my past, or not redeeming my past, but revenge on my past.

[52:37]

Revenge, it just keeps you bound. So all those negative feelings just keep you bound. How do you let go of the negative feelings? I mean, I can't tell you the formulas, you know, no formulas, but somehow you have to be able to want the freedom from the past. It just occurred to me that redemption is something like getting back, getting back yourself. Getting yourself back, yeah, re-dimensioning. Yeah. So it's not something that comes from outside, like in Christianity where you confess and someone else gives you, you know, you get it from someone else. It's actually, if your own shame for something you did, if you can get through that and forgive yourself, then you're kind of redeeming. Right. You know, you have to deal with the past. You can't just ignore the past. Forgive this, forgive that.

[53:39]

Because forgiveness doesn't mean that now you're okay. Everybody in the past is okay. I understand what happened, and everybody in the past is good. You know, what they receive is what they're going to receive. But I am free of it. That forgiveness is like, I am now free to go ahead. So, Jim Roche, I agree with what you're saying. I wonder what Catherine's pointing to is that a young child doesn't know how to process on that level, but what I really agree with is child tends to bring the world, and if they can start from that place, then the other places will be able to open up in the future. That's right. So you have to figure yourself as well as others, because you want to start new. Being ordained as a priest means that goodbye to the last life, and you start from there.

[54:42]

been practicing as a priest for five years, you're five years old. Even though, you know, I had my 83rd birthday, I'm really only 48 years old. That explains a lot. I think you're through. But you have to keep doing it every day. You can't just do it sometimes. Every single day. So, you know, at Tathagata now, the past few years, every morning they do the confession, All My Ancient Twisted God, as the beginning of the service. So you're starting that day completely new. All My Ancient brand new on each day.

[55:49]

That's practice. That's the first stage.

[56:01]

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