If the configuration of the room is a statement, then it sounds like you'd like to continue yesterday afternoon. Now, since at least the comments I heard yesterday felt positive about your meeting together, as you did, and if it is, I presume, we can get more experienced at speaking with each other as a sangha, Yeah, then maybe we should continue doing that, doing that, this, as part of the seminar.

[01:05]

And I imagine, you know, maybe something like I could say something on Friday and Saturday morning And we could have a more sound discussion on Saturday afternoon and Sunday morning, and then I could perhaps say something again on Sunday afternoon. Now, it's up to you whether you think this is a good idea or not. But it's at least true for me that I'm looking for a way that our weekend seminars, three-day seminars, can engage the Sangha more than they have.

[02:23]

So we could have some discussion about that now. Or I could just go back upstairs and you could continue yesterday afternoon. And I can come back after the break. What do you want to do? Sorry to cause a problem. You have to make a decision. And some kind of agreement. Yeah. First of all, I think this is a splendid suggestion. Which one? You will be surprised. So I liked very much the framing and getting an input from you.

[03:43]

And then the alchemy is allowed to work among us. With framing, what I mean with framing is that we are getting an input from you. Oh, okay. And then the alchemy of the Sangha can work. And then maybe from you, Roshi, again comes something which gathers it. Oh, okay.

[04:48]

And some pattern might be. We don't know what it should be. Yeah, okay. Anyone else? Something you'd like to say? Yes, Susan. I support what Eva just said. I think it's a fantastic idea, this alchemy of the Sangha. The process of alchemy. Yeah. And then you, Roshi, include us into your knowledge or how else one could describe it, yes. Was ich noch sagen will, weil ich jetzt hier sitze, ist diese Sicht hier, wenn ich mich jetzt vorstelle an dieser Wand, und wenn ich mich jetzt hier vorstelle

[06:09]

And what I would like to say, from the point of view I'm sitting here, the view, imagining Roshi sitting here in front of this wall, and now this view that I can have, seeing you in front of the trees, this is really a wonderful change. It proves a point of Buddhism. It's not the same cat that lands that jumped off the couch. Somehow I'm a different person there than here. I feel that. Yes, Eric? What I would like to wish for is that we are able, that we be able to talk amongst each other whether Roshi is present or not.

[07:25]

Because I notice there is a difference whether Roshi is there or not, in the extent of what people are saying and how they are speaking. And also the position they are taking and the authority they are giving themselves. In their experiences and in their teaching. Yes, I liked very much what you said to me yesterday and what you wrote to me. And I liked very much what Christine said yesterday and in her email. And for me, this is an expression of this authority.

[08:45]

And maybe I would rather like a format where you, Roshi, give a lecture. and then we together and with you with Roshi and then we could have an exchange about our experience and our understanding I would like that of course if I may comment and And I've been trying, hoping for something like that for a long time. But the fact is the authority problem, presumed authority problem, But also, I've simply been doing this for a long time, you know, decades.

[09:53]

Developing a way the sangha can speak together you know, we're in a new phase of developing that, I hope. And so my own feeling is the Sangha needs more experience in developing a way of speaking together before it's probably going to work for me to be in the middle of it. That's my guess. There is more experience to talk about practice with each other before it works well that I am there.

[10:54]

So I liked this weekend, it's quite refreshing, I feel it's refreshing and I also like the form we are taking. So I also like the suggestions that Erich and Eva brought in, but I also would like to include into this setup, maybe at one or two points of this weekend, the small groups. Because they make possible an additional element of intimate discussion. Yeah, I mean, this is also a small group.

[11:59]

And it should also be able to be intimate. And it sounds like it was, at least for some people, yesterday. But I would like the decision to break into small groups or open up into small groups. To be, my feeling at this moment in a way, is to be a sangha decision. So you're meeting and you say, hey, let's break up and open up into small groups. Yes? So... Felix? Do I understand you correctly, that there would be two spheres of speaking among ourselves?

[13:08]

We then decide these two Sundays, Saturday afternoon, Sunday morning, already as a decision process of the present singer group say, you fit more small group and you fit more into the big round. But when we're speaking with each other, we could, for example, decide at this point there would be better to have the big group and on Sunday morning maybe we would like to have small. So this could be the result of the process of speaking. And I'm your loyal servant. I'm just upstairs. So I call for you. If you have a string and you pull it, it's attached to my toe. Yes. It seems to me as another sphere of speaking, not mentioned yet, but totally important, that informal speaking during breaks, when eating, when walking, when arriving, when departing.

[14:54]

So there is an additional sphere of discussing and of speaking, exchange, that wasn't mentioned. And it's also very important for me. And this is speaking during the breaks and in small groups when going for a walk or when we are driving with the car and arriving and have... Yeah, that's why we're so far away. It takes a while to get here. That's why we have long breaks. Now we have a new form of authority here, which is the views that have been expressed so far by the Sangha, with the permission of the Sangha. Are there any dissenting voices? To this whole idea. Yes. So this, in my opinion, this splitting up into small group, it's a quite bothersome and long process.

[16:27]

So maybe if we only split the group in half, that would be much easier. Half is quicker. Shorter period. Okay. Yes? Yes? I like this change very much. So there is a change when we come together that I experience and actually it doesn't matter so much whether you are present or not, Roshi. But I actually prefer it if you are present. So what happens, what I experience is that our sangha feel gets denser.

[17:32]

Can you say that? Yes, we do. So this was in Sasen this morning, you could feel there is a new magic. on which it becomes visible, like yesterday, we together, and namely everyone in their uniqueness. How would such a picture look like in the whole? That's just how it appeared in the scene, and that was somehow very ... It has something very special in it. So what appeared in Sassen to me was the question and also experience somehow, what would a painting look like?

[18:35]

Like we spoke yesterday afternoon, this experience where people spoke in their very uniqueness. What would it look like if we could see it in a painting? It would be silent. In a painting. Okay. One thing. Is anyone sitting here thinking, oh, this is a good idea in the Sangha. It's important for the Sangha to do this, but next year, count me out. Or, the opposite of that is, if we're going to do this, we have to do it with some kind of continuity, so you have to be saying inside yourself, next year count me in. Because we're doing this not just because I thought of it or somebody else thought of it,

[19:56]

Denn wir tun das ja nicht, weil irgendjemand sich das ausgedacht hat oder ich mir das ausgedacht habe. Denn wir machen das deswegen, weil wir das so lange Zeit schon miteinander gemacht haben, dass das einfach jetzt eine wirkliche Möglichkeit wird. Also ich finde auch, dass... I also have the feeling that if we design, set it up like that, we should try to find out how we could turn it into a continuity of practicing together. And it seems to me it's not enough to come together once a year.

[21:15]

Yes, it's a real, if you're really going to do this seriously and continue, because implicitly this is the way it can continue after I can't travel or whatever. Yeah, but I've made a decision to live another 15 years. Okay, so ideally, some of this group in various ways would meet once or twice a year, separate from here at least. Yeah, but that's failed with the winter branches. We have a weekend and I guess at one point there are going to be two weekends in which people from the winter branches meet, but if I'm not there, almost nobody comes.

[22:31]

So the dynamic of the discussion has to be good enough that people come whether I'm there or not. And the dynamic of the discussion works when I'm there because I'm pretty good at the dynamic of the discussion. So that means that some other people need to take leadership in these other meetings or other groups. But the problem there is some people think they should be leaders when they don't have anything to say. So to develop and what we're talking about is developing a Dharma institution here in Europe.

[23:43]

A Sashin is an institution. It's a tradition, an instituted tradition developed centuries ago. Developing an institution doesn't happen usually just by accident. There has to be a real intention and some people to lead and evolve that intention. I'd love to see that happen. Yes. Somebody else is going to say something. But Eric, okay. Yes. In the Dhamma Sangha there is a big complexity of groups and locations where the people meet.

[25:07]

There is the Johanneshof, there are the town or city groups. There are about ten of them. There are the seminars like Rastenberg. And in Vienna or in Austria, we have these different graduates. And in Vienna or in Austria we also have this deep winter practice. And this turned out to be quite a good thing and allowed people to practice with each other that do not necessarily live nearby. So we only said we take these two months and we define it with a beginning and an end. And it makes a difference.

[26:22]

And it makes a difference in how people feel themselves and with each other. And I think we could take elements from that experience and try to bring it into this suggestion of yours to create continuity. Because it actually worked as a kind of self-organization of the Sangha. With your permission and with our support by Rosenblum Roshi. So when we look what has worked, and for example, we are connected to Bali each time, and this has worked.

[27:35]

But Bali sends a lot of way. We are grateful. Okay, yeah, I agree with everything you said. I would like to support that. And really, the Sangha is one of the jewels. Equal to the other two. The Sangha is also the teacher. And Dogen said, for instance, which I think is an extraordinary statement, these things can only be understood by a Buddha and a Buddha, not by just one person.

[28:40]

Some things are so subtle, it requires mutual understanding for them to happen. Dogen said, for example, and I find this quite extraordinary, that in order to understand these things, you need a Buddha and a Buddha. So you need a multidimensional understanding in order for something to really happen. Yes. And I've had this feeling for a long time, So, and for some time, I actually had this feeling that a space already has opened up for us, and the Sangha, like this jewel, is there for us. Absolutely. So how the discussion goes now, there is a quite definitive change that I notice and I would like to express this.

[29:51]

Because also for me, the places where I could have contact with you and also with the Sangha, they were for me completely independent. And this is quite very disagreeable, uncomfortable for me. So, if we now reaffirm that the Rastenberg book will finally be published in the future, for example at the middle weekend of the Winterzweige as a half-year meeting, this is something completely different from what it used to be. That's how you might think. So if the Rastenberg group meets at the winter branches weekend, this would be something completely different.

[31:16]

More or less that halfway meeting. You mean two different meetings? One here and one in the winter branches in Johanneshof? Yeah. But some people want to go to both. We go to both. This sangha as we sit here. The Grieslers have to, you have to work that out between yourselves. I was forced. Well, yesterday evening we had a very intimate satsang, and I had an idea. And I had the idea, we had this tutorial experience. Yeah. And And before this seminar even happened, there was a kind of joint study.

[32:27]

And before this weekend, this Dojo Rio weekend happened, where I couldn't go, where I couldn't go then, there was already a joint study. Because we knew it was going to be the five skandhas, we had to deal with them. And if we wanted, and we did. And then there was an email exchange between those who were interested in this project. And the resonance in this email exchange was actually very strong. And it was fruitful to get to express yourself in writing and also to get input from the others reading the email.

[33:46]

So, my idea was that we could also have something like that here in this Rastenberg. research sites. And that has to, yes, as it always develops, but that would also be a possibility, among other things, of course, how we could have contact with each other and how we support each other in this difficult task to explore a common topic somewhere. So I thought maybe this would also be a possibility for us to stay in contact and support each other in this difficult thing to have an exploration together over a stretch of time. Yeah. Well, nowadays with e-mails, we have instead of walking shoes... we can get in touch with each other much easier, of course.

[34:52]

But you know, ideally, transmission is, thank you so much, is Sangha transmission, Dharma transmission, and institutional transmission. In other words, we're doing this because there's been an institutional transmission from Tang Dynasty, all the way up until how to meet together, how to practice together, and so forth. But still, even in times where they really developed this procedure, this process, there would be hundreds of good teachers and the next generation is three. And then there's hundreds of teachers, but only two or three pass it on, really, in an old nation.

[36:06]

And transmission, the concept of transmission, is an overlapping transmission. It ends and a new one starts. And creating that overlap is a real societal, dharmic, creative act. And my feeling is it has to happen or I'm wasting my time. Well, not wasting my time, but not using my time the way I'd like. So for me the time has come to start to see if this can happen.

[37:12]

The word for sangha in Japanese is rin, and rin means forest. So up until now I've been teaching with the concept of putting seeds out there. And now we're already a forest. So I think my relationship to a forest is different than my relationship to sowing seeds. And while each seed might grow separately, a forest grows together. So also what we can do if we carry this, develop this idea, is if there's going to be another seminar, for instance, next year, here, Instead of winging it, winging it means you just start and do it one way or another.

[39:03]

Yeah. We could have clearly a topic which I could give some input to and some suggestions about the topic, how to look at it, etc. And then, when I get here, you're already prepared to some extent. I will try to deconstruct your preparation. But at least it will be something for me to try to deconstruct. But at least it will be something for me to try to deconstruct. Yeah, I'm kind of joking.

[40:08]

So what we're really talking about is implicitly some kind of membership. Now, I know most of you quite well and like to continue with most of you. But if the complexity of trying to do this as laypersons, etc., means we only continue with seven people, that's okay with me. I'm not hoping for that, because I'd like to to continue with each of you. Because many people say to me, and fairly recently important people to me, friends, won't you continue what you're doing better by finishing your book? And Suzuki Roshi's book, Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, has certainly influenced a lot of people.

[41:28]

It's not that my book would be successful like that, but still, that's one way to continue. And I intend to do both. But if I have to make a choice, I would rather continue with you individually than write something, even as much as I like to write. But I can't continue with you individually unless we develop a more constructive way to practice together. Okay. That's my deep hope, and it seems to be time for an institutional break.

[42:51]

All right, thanks a lot. Now, afterwards, do you want to gather like this and continue this discussion or yesterday's discussion, or shall I join in now or not till after lunch? So I will sit in my room and wait for instructions. Thanks. Also es scheint so, wir werden nach der Pause darüber sprechen, wie es weitergehen soll.

[44:16]

Ja, du kannst es jederzeit noch sagen. Ein bisschen lauter. that he is there. I find that when we have enough time in the break and when we are eating, we can really exchange ideas when we want to. I often think that it is a great gift, that he is there personally, that we can use every minute of our time, that he is there and that we can listen to him. Very important. I think it's a great gift. [...] So that sounds like we would continue to talk to each other, but with Roger as a participant.

[45:23]

Exactly. And as an input giver. And the translation music? Yes, we have to continue as we do now. The lectures, of course, when you write them, for me it is also totally worth it. Yes, it is true that it is always very difficult to be like him in his adolescence, not in his adolescence. It is a good exercise and I think Mark has learned that in the last few years. I also just thought, I would like to take that with me now, what is actually the difference, just with me, what is different, what would I speak differently or why or how do I speak differently, whether Roshi is present or not present, and that in every moment or in every meeting or in every, yes? Now I get a good start. A good start?

[46:24]

Yes, yes, yes. Oh, tell me. We already had a lot of variations. But what really struck me here, this time, but maybe it will be the case in the future, what Roshi has just mentioned, this dharma transmission, and if I remember, in the winter branch, what we trample around there, and how different it is in Roshi.

[47:24]

So it lifts us up again in one area that we don't even know about. One or the other may be there. But that we talk to each other, that we talk to each other, that we exchange, that is immensely important. But it is also incredibly important that this gift is given to us again and again. And what I meant, to take him with you to all of our other meetings, from the feeling, you know? I also thought, when he was sitting back there, and Lisa had translated the sepulchre, it was also something different. As if he wasn't there at all. I thought that too. Thank you. Thank you.

[48:39]

and with him and see how it might even happen concretely. But it is important that we agree on what we are talking about. It sounds a bit difficult to say that it is okay if everyone talks like they are talking and so on, but I think it is better that we agree. what we want to talk about, which is important for everyone, and then we stay here. That's how it is. Then it has more density. Then it doesn't break so easily. Oshima always has this function that he wants to say the whole thing. He brings it up again and again. But maybe we can do it on our own. We thought about it carefully. What do we want to talk about? What is really important to us? And then only about that. I thought we had the topic now. I thought we had the topic now.

[50:10]

This is a very important topic for me. Yes, that is also a theme. I think that is very important. I think that is very important. I think that is very important. And to open up and to look at what feels best to you. If there is a good feeling for everyone. Or if you can go in that direction. Because at home it is already. I think it's getting dark again. It's getting dark again. I don't know, I think it's the future, also the future. But I think it's, to be honest, I think it's, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

[51:11]

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. And how did you prepare for it? What are you going to do for it? It's a lot of work and it doesn't work at all to position the inputs. I need these inputs. I'm not quite there yet. I don't want to see it. aus dem heraus auch vielleicht Fragen zu stellen, die wir haben und die wir jetzt fragen können, wer jetzt da ist, aber morgen nicht mehr mehr.

[52:30]

Also das vielleicht auch so zu benutzen. Aber dann wäre es schön, wenn ich das jetzt... Schade, ich freue mich schon, meine Anschlussfähigkeit, dass wir jetzt bis zum Mittagessen das jetzt weiterführen, ohne den Roger. Nein, ich habe gesagt, nein, [...] ich habe gesagt, nein. Yes, please. Yesterday, we talked about this knowledge and non-knowledge. And at the end, what I was most interested in was, he said, he could never show us, if I understood correctly, how to get past the knowledge. That's what he says now. A little bit louder, please.

[53:35]

I would be very interested to hear from you, for example, how we can behave, how we can do it. For example, we can practice together, but that would be something, I would say, I have the feeling that it is of absolutely important importance that he, in a request or an exchange, for example, comes to the market and offers it. To bypass some style. Exactly. For example, yes. Thank you very much. Yes, we have already talked about the fact that it has not yet been cut off, that it has been opened, and that's the thing about... No, that with the knowledge and understanding, and where it should flow in today.

[54:49]

And based on that, let's look at it, how do we now, for example, in the development of this topic with him and with us. Is that possible? Is that possible? Very good, very good. So for me it would really be a concern that we don't deal with this in the afternoon, without coming from the most diverse areas. Yes, I think it's very important that we have an idea of how things will go on. We would like to talk about it more concretely. [...] For me, there is a little detail, namely how we talk to each other, with Roschi, and with Roschi with us, and then I would have, for example, the need to talk to her.

[56:31]

So she can, this is now perhaps a bit of a nice format, but the details, the quality. Yes, the quality. um, um mit einem Thema weiterzukommen. Kann ich mal sagen, mir kommt vor, dass für uns auch wichtig sein muss, dass er sich mit der Idee wohlfühlt. Im Sinne von, er weiß, das Ende ist irgendwo, aber wie halten wir zusammen, dass wir in Linie weiter fortsetzen. Ich glaube, das ist sein Thema jetzt, nicht, dass er den Übergang auf den eventuellen notwendigen Ausstieg macht. Und jetzt müssen wir ihm das wiedergeben, dass wir das verstehen und so gut wie möglich damit umgehen wollen. I think it's very nice that Frischi has now extended his life by five years. Können wir uns vielleicht einigen, dass wir wieder zusammenkommen, zunächst einmal noch hinhören auf dieses Format?

[57:39]

to the question of how do we continue concretely and do we find something that is so tempting for all of us that we can't resist coming back next year and are open to the fact that they will end it at some point and then we will find, so now, do we turn to what we also want, and I completely agree with this question of not understanding and bypassing Das Herz des Wissens. Und auch die Qualität des Miteinandersprechens. Das finde ich wichtig. I think it's also quite exciting, especially the Austrian group, because Hanna has also tried to build communication, which we have not yet understood, and that means... and also to institutionalize such a round.

[58:53]

That's what you say, you make such a round and try to create a form of communication. We can best exchange ideas in practice. The state is a possibility and the state is a possibility. Erzählt mit einer Pause jetzt einverstanden, wenn wir dann wieder zusammenkommen. Wie lange? 20 Minuten. Okay. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you.

[60:11]

Not as much as I would like to, but we'll give it a try. I would like to have a house. It has to be a house. That's what we want. It has to be a house. [...] I don't know. I mean, you can joke about it, but I don't think it's always as serious as it used to be. But I don't think it's always as serious as it used to be. When I first did it, it was great.

[62:13]

It's great. I have said the same thing. When I first did it, it was great. It's great. I have said the same thing. Yes, yes. Thank you. Thank you very much.

[63:13]

Okay. Also, wir haben ja vor der Pause eine Übereinkunft gehabt, dass es uns wichtig ist, zu schauen, welche konkreten Schritte oder wo wir eine Übereinkunft erzielen können, was wir konkret gemeinsam machen wollen, um zu einer gemeinsamen Kontinuität des Praktizierens zu schaffen, die uns dann quasi ins nächste Rastwerkseminar hineinträgt. And it also means that there may be meetings in between and whatever. That's what it's about now. And it would be nice if everyone who has a contribution to this speaks. Please. Coming back to Erich, to look at the elements of deep winter practice and look which elements have worked.

[64:58]

In connection to what Roche mentioned, that someone has to take leading roles. In connection to what Roche mentioned, that somebody has got to take a leading function. That works well with the Deep Winter Practice, that in this defined time range, there is a practice leader. And it works well that in this defined time there is a practice leader who has a certain role and also carries the field. And this is also possible to do this over shorter periods of time. And what is also decisive for the head of the party is, of course, that he got the permission from the two Roshis.

[66:15]

And what was decisive to be the essential to do this practice leadership was that there was the support or the permission by the Roshis to do that in the deep winter practice. Also, of course, not immediately after the Sangha comes, who does it, but So this was not something that was decided by the Sangha who would do this. But for me it is an essential element. ... I have an experience and it's about a group of friends and fellow practitioners

[67:21]

in einer lockeren Folge von Zeitabständen trifft. So I personally have an experience of a group of friends, women friends and practitioners that meet in a loosely fashion five times a year or so. Ungefähr fünfmal im Jahr. Und bei uns ist es so, dass es keine Führungsfunktion gibt. Und For me, it is partly a coffee border, but it also means that we have formed a field, that we can take everything with us, which is very important for us, and share it with each other and also be able to look at each other. So what's happening there, it's partly meeting to drink coffee together, but it's also that the field is established where each one of us is able to bring whatever matters to her.

[68:37]

and is allowed to show herself somehow in a very deep way and unfold with each other whatever appears. So what I find in this meeting there is this trust among the members and also this courage that I wrote to you in the emails. So this group has inspired me a lot in what is possible when you are coming together and you can share yourself in a really deep way. And if I have something like an experience of a Buddha field outside of seminars or practical conditions, then it is this group.

[69:51]

If I have the experience of a Buddha field outside of practice meetings like seminars or sessions, then it is working in this group. And over the years this group has become something that accompanies me so much that it really is part of my... Teil der Fragen ist, mit denen ich mich beschäftige. Over the years, this group has become something which accompanies the questions that I'm working with. Und ich habe das Gefühl, dass sie mich irrsinnig stark unterstützt, in dem Prozess, mich mit diesen Fragen zu beschäftigen. And my experience is that it helps me a lot to develop and stay with these questions.

[71:01]

Also, was ich mir wünsche ist, dass diese Qualitäten dieser Gruppe, die einfach, ganz einfach mit Freundschaft That these qualities can expand. That's how I would imagine it. Not that it's exactly like that, but that these qualities could simply jump over. That would be a deep wish from me. So my deep wish would be that these qualities that I have experienced there, they could be part of future coming together and continuity of practice in our Rastenberg group. Thank you. So I'm part of this group and this group has developed out of the Buddhist Map Psychotherapy and Constellation group that also meets here.

[72:07]

that I was nourished so much and that I was able to experience it again and again, that with the many suggestions that have been shown before, I liked it then and the wish came to me that it could be expanded in some form. So I share this wish that Christina just expressed, and when all these suggestions came up before, I was all the time thinking about this group that we already have, and with the wish that what we experienced there could also expand and be part of this... You're both part of this women's group? Yeah. Can I join? No, no, no. And what I would like to say about Roshi's last lecture before the break, as an experience, is that in the last six months there has been a lot of research on the five Ghandas.

[73:42]

And what I would like to say to this last statement of yours and also the experience we had with sharing our understanding and practice of the Five Scandals, Yes. So our experience was with these sanghas, suddenly within the group we had, we felt that we wanted to explore it together and so much that within a very short amount of time we found

[74:59]

three possibilities to meet and this is usually quite difficult. So we had three times and we looked into the scandals, into every detail that we could find and this was really very inspiring. So I think your suggestion that you would give an input and that allows us to work with it and prepare, this would be, could work. In recent times, I have noticed that seminars from Paul, seminars from Hoshi and Praxis Wocken and Johanneshof have similar themes. That is, that you introduce a kind of annual theme group. Recently it came to my attention that topics of your seminars and Rosenblum Roshes and also practice weeks have quite similar topics and maybe this is a good idea and there could be something like the topic of a whole year so that we can really deepen the practice of a certain field.

[76:18]

Yeah, okay. Maybe it's a good time now that we are trying things out that we also try to find out things about different ways of communicating with each other. So there's a different way and different things happen if we use the stick that is put into the middle. And it makes a difference how we sit it. And there's a different outcome whether somebody takes leadership or leadership role. Or there is no leadership.

[77:24]

And maybe to try this out also in relationship to a certain practice topic. This would also be interesting to look into that. Dorothea, can you imagine being part of this group even though you live in the middle of Germany? Dorothea, could you imagine being part of this group, even if you live in the middle of Germany? Yes, it's the first time I'm here. I can imagine. It's a good weekend because it's a holiday. Yes, for me it's possible. Okay, great. You know, what you decide here And if what you decide here coheres, it will influence all the seminars in Europe. And that's interesting. Yeah. Yes.

[78:44]

The frog is agreeing with us. This topic is very complex in my idea. For me, Sangha is an essential component of my practice. And I also would take part, even if I wasn't all convinced about a certain format. If I think about which kind of sangha activities have been most fruitful for me, then it is activities where we do not talk so much.

[79:50]

And if talking was fruitful for me, then it was face-to-face conversations. So for myself, the body meetings and conversations were the most helpful thing of the deep winter practice. So if this format changes, I would like to see activities happen where we don't speak together so much. I'm happy that your deep winter meetings and practice worked so well and I wasn't a participant at all, at least not a visible participant.

[81:14]

We ask you for permission. Once upon a time. I remember. Krista? Yes, I would like to bring this to the surface, which moves me again and again, that I feel a deep gratitude when you, Christine, or you, Erich, and whoever else is still there, when you are not there, take over to say where it goes. I would like to express a deep gratitude for you, Christine and Erich, or whoever, even tells us what we have to do or what we should do if nobody else is there. But I also find a longing for you, especially from you, Christine, because I am not so in contact with Eric now.

[82:25]

This is an interpretation, I have to say, whether this is also true, to find you in such a network, in a network of teachers and also to let you get closer. But I also feel in you, Christine, a kind of longing to be part of a kind of nourishing network and let yourself be nourished by it. And I think it is extraordinarily important and also an important topic in our fatherly attention to observe our role in the Sangha. And I think it is a very important component to reflect the roles that we take in the Sangha and difficulties.

[83:26]

Yes, this path of mindfulness to apply the life of mindfulness for our roles that we have in the Sun. And I could imagine that such a practice of mindfulness And I could imagine that such kind of mindfulness practice could have certain effects. And I would think that the effect would be that partly also it's possible to have an exchange on a conscious level about this.

[84:44]

And this maybe would require a certain kind of trust, but also generate trust. And we could, with more more intentionally take on roles and let go of them. So I think we should also take that into view and we should have an exchange about that. I would like to see that we more explore our talking as a kind of practice.

[86:00]

I would like to connect with Daniel a little bit. I think it's not that easy with the deep practice and then the speech. So I also refer to Daniel here. And for me, it's that to bring this together, meditative practice, and then this exchange, it's not so easy to bring it together. Yeah. My first teacher 43 years ago, Ryan Kern, an English person, he instructed us, and then you basically shut up and keep the energy. And I don't agree with that, and this style has certain effects, and there are sanghas, they feel ice cold, and they just practice sasen, and then everybody leaves, and there is no relationship.

[87:36]

So maybe this is a little over-threaded, degenerated? So I see, I have the feeling there is a certain weakness within me that there is Sasa and then it's quite difficult to bring that into the social sphere. And I think I'm not alone with the problem and also other people have that kind of difficulty. And it is also in the 8th paragraph that is rightly said, Also in the Eightfold Path, the right speech is one component.

[88:57]

And also, as I would add, right listening. So if this becomes more important in the Sangha, Yes, that is also conscious, so that we research it as an exercise and seek help, possibly. Some can do it better, others can perhaps give suggestions. We should really consciously try to explore that and maybe find some help in that and maybe some people are more experienced in that and they can give others some hints or so. And also speaking in a group, there are certain dangerous group dynamics and it can also get enormously boring.

[90:01]

Also referring to that, for me the most fruitful ways of applying practice is always the personal conversations. I also see this in a form in which they complement each other, that on the one hand we can receive the teaching from Oshi and that everyone is also directed towards Oshi in this situation. So I also see this as an addition. On the one hand we can receive the teaching from Roshi and we are somehow aligned in your direction.

[91:25]

from the experience or from the interaction, when I go out of my own practice, that with my bodies, buddies or with my people, so to speak, whom I can exchange well, I simply go into this personal relationship and talk about it. And only then do I have the feeling that it is bearing fruit in me. And sort of to balance it out, then I refer to my buddies and the people I'm friends with and we talk amongst each other and then these things fall into place somehow. And I think that with this togetherness, to find a higher format here, could be seen in such a way that there is a balance. And maybe this format could also be seen in that way, that we are trying to find a balance somehow in that way.

[92:35]

So we could give more space to the teaching that we have received in smaller groups. And then go back to the bigger group with that. I think Christa was going to say something. I also think that talking with each other is not at all easy. In spite of that, I value it enormously. Because I think, what possibilities do we have to share things with each other besides practicing sasen?

[93:49]

Wir treffen uns eben auch zu verschiedenen Gelegenheiten. Es ist ein Unterschied, ob man ein Sesshin macht oder ob wir in der Cottagegasse miteinander zusammen sitzen. And we meet at different occasions and it makes a difference whether we are doing a Sesshin or meeting at Cottagegasse. Und ich habe mir vorhin gedacht, es könnte uns eine Hilfe sein, wenn wir vielleicht And maybe it could be of help to us when we take out of the Buddhist teaching that there is a social body and there is a Sangha body. And maybe this would be helpful with the intention to more meet within a sangha body. I'm also part of this small women's group.

[94:53]

And I think we are meeting in a mixture of social and sangha body. and I think an important element that allows us to meet in a kind of depth that we have not had topic that was and without intentions yeah And is there a buddy's group, a boy's group? A mixed group. A mixed group, okay. Because it's interesting here in this group, there's about three or four more women than men.

[96:12]

And I wonder if our future is being determined by women. I kind of hope so. Fundamentally, our futures are determined by women. Yes, Regina? Since they're mothers. I said fundamentally. I didn't explain. Fundamentally, our future is determined by women, since women are mothers. Go ahead, Mom. I have been staying with this question, how this could develop into the future for some time. Not so explicit, but in the background it's always present.

[97:15]

And I also had dreams about it. And I also try to express it or find ways for this in my life. So I think it is very important for us, maybe this awareness, that here in a group it is about the you relationship and at the same time about the we. And I find it very important that we are conscious about that in a group like this, what is important is the you relationship and the we. This requires a lot of self-discipline. But I have an image within me that it could be somehow like

[98:29]

and by that you can notice how it forms and how it arises And that you can trust in it and all roles that come up are only mediums of help. Susan, you were going to say something? No, I was definitely pointing at something. Eric was going to say something. Eric? My neighbor was it. No, I know that. I thought you had your hand up before.

[99:54]

Oh, she was my neighbor. Oh, it was your neighbor. Hi, neighbor. So I am a guest here in this very wonderful, nice sangha. And with a little distance I can say that there are similar problems in other sanghas. It's always difficult to talk about one's practice before the teacher. In the group. And to deal with that the teacher won't live forever and how to deal with it. My teacher always says, Sangha is like family and you cannot choose it.

[100:59]

There is also always social friction. And I also think what Roshi said in this seminar that the only one who can teach you is yourself. So there is an outer teacher and an inner teacher. And there is reflection. And in a positive way, you can have more trust into the inner teacher. And this means taking responsibility yourself and not give the whole responsibility to the other teacher.

[102:09]

And I think you can really trust that this is there. Even if the teacher is not physically there. Even if the teacher isn't present physically. Before at the beginning of the break, someone said to me that you were trying to see how to give this some kind of definition.

[103:25]

And I think we've come a long way today and in these two days. And I think the most important in this institutional Sangha process The most important is the individual and mutual intentions. That's what we should all work on right now, is looking at what our, this is my suggestion anyway, looking at what our inner what our real intention is. And let that intention be looked at in other circumstances, like in the next days and weeks.

[104:33]

And there's some danger in the West of trying to give form, I think anyway, giving form too quickly to things. I mean, just as an example, in the Noh theater, for example, in Japan, they don't rehearse. They all practice separately, and then they come together and hope it works. So they practice intensely, but they have little run-throughs to see how it's all going to work, but basically they don't rehearse. And I was reading the other day that they even don't have a complete program of how things are going to work together.

[105:51]

They just take chances and let a certain degree of spontaneity be part of it. maybe that won't work for us we might try that and then we all go in different directions But still I feel if we develop and deepen our intentions and create opportunities to discover opportunities as we go along, this is probably the most way it will come together most effectively. But forms definitely help. Rastenberg is a form we're making use of. Rastenberg ist eine Form, von der wir Gebrauch machen.

[107:15]

Dieses Pfingstendatum ist eines, von dem wir nutzen. Also lasst uns herausfinden, von welchen Formen wir gebrauchen könnten und was sich da für uns zeigt. Das wäre mein Vorschlag. Yes, sir. I'm a bit uncomfortable about this discussion, but in a good way. because my feeling is there is so much that already is there implicitly or that we have developed explicitly and my uneasiness comes from

[108:22]

that we use a lot of effort to develop something new and also have big expectations and also bring a lot of effort in it to achieve something. But what we try to achieve is actually already there. And what I like a lot is solutions that achieve a meaningful life form. With a minimum effort, very elegantly, what you want. And this is most the case if you use in a clever way what is already there.

[109:36]

And I think the Sangha has developed over the last 27 years. out of its own and out of the painful fact that Roshi isn't here all the time So Christine, Michael and I started doing Zazen because of that we started Zazen in Cecily's cellar. Like with the wine bottles. In the basement.

[110:41]

And all of that, for us, Sangha developed. And this Sangha is quite complex and there are many facets. And with different structures and forms. And there are different aspects emphasized. and so we shouldn't try to find one solution for all but we should try to use what is already there So we already did this, we turn to each other and we are talking with each other. So there isn't this essential perspective. And it works. So I think we should take these small steps and see what is the outcome.

[112:08]

At the beginning of the break, Eric brought me a cup of tea. And he said that he thinks of this as, including Hamburg and Berlin and so forth, as one song. I think there's 10 or 11 or so fairly organized, somewhat organized urban groups. My view of those groups so far has been, including the Boulder group, which is quite developed, They all ought to develop on their own without me. Because for me, I want to see what people do without any influence from me.

[113:18]

Yeah, and... And without them, they being legally, like the question when Boulder was, it should be legally part of the Creston, and I said no. Even though I wanted them to grow on their own, develop on their own, As Eric was implying, they also are growing together. I think probably I experience it as one sangha more than anyone else because I have relationships with all the individuals.

[114:27]

But I'm also very well aware of the differences. But of course, again, whatever we do here will influence the whole Sangha. And the whole Sangha, whatever it is, will participate in how this teaching and our practice together continue. So I do think we have to find some way to stay resonantly at least in connection with each other. So I would suggest a couple things that could come out of this meeting. One is someone here or several people could write, you know, a kind of minutes or notes, whatever you call them in Germany.

[115:39]

Yeah, a page or half a page or something like that, and send it to the other groups. As little seeds of, wow, geez, hmm, that's interesting. I didn't say a while, but that would be all right. I tried to come to sleep. But also we have to make a decision. Do we keep these dates for next year? Because somehow Dorian and Giorgio and the cook all said, well, bye-bye, this is the last time I see you. And I said, well, maybe... Even the cook said that to me when I first saw it. Of course you can decide to reserve these dates next year and I don't have to come.

[116:44]

There are results from the fear that it might be the last, which I know. The cook and these people, they depend very much on this seminar. They want to show their fear by saying goodbye. But it's a positive aspect. I didn't think they really said goodbye. That didn't get translated anyway. Peter van Sweetheart, every day. So anyway, we have to make a decision among ourselves. Do we reserve the dates for next year? And do we come together with what kind of intention next year? I think before we leave this afternoon, we ought to make that decision of whether we continue next year or not.

[118:05]

And obviously, I think, to continue with the spirit we have now, to find a way to make this an effective practice to get... So lunch is at 1.15, isn't it? At 1. So there's a little time. Shall we just continue this or shall we take a stand-up break and then I can say something or other? Stand-up break. Okay, so I'll come back and see if there's anything I might add. Also dann komme ich zurück und schaue, ob es irgendetwas gibt, was ich hinzufügen könnte.

[119:15]

So, this takes five minutes. Also, fünf Minuten Pause.

[119:19]

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