Welcome, everyone. So it's a nice warm day. I hope you're up for this. I'm happy to take your questions. And so please, let's start. Sandeep? One thing I would like to do is when the questioner is here to have them be forefront. Fill the picture. Okay. Hi. That's it. Can you see me? I can. Oh, great. Hi. So you actually answered my question in the doko-san when I called you. And I was kind of at a loss. I didn't know what to ask you now because I had signed up before I had arranged the doko-san with you.

[01:04]

So I'm going to throw you a wide net question. What does it mean to be human? What it means to be human is to be human. Be thoroughly human. Not everybody is thoroughly human. So this is really a good question. One, you can say, what does it mean? You can also say, how do I do that? Yes. That's a good clarifying question, because I feel like I've always been ET and drag. I feel like I'm not human sometimes. So how do I be human?

[02:05]

So there's what and there's how. What is a question, and how is a question. But how is a different kind of question than what. What is philosophical? How is do something? Be human, do human. Because although we're born human, we have to grow into being human. So it's a big bag, a big human bag. I call it a skin bag. So we have to grow into that. That's our practice. That's our practice. We call it bodhisattva. Bodhisattva means how to be truly, totally human. And our totally human quality is to include all the animals.

[03:06]

Something happened here. I see the universe. Can you see the universe? I think you have a spotlight video if you want it to stay, Gary. I'm sorry, what did you ask me? That's all you wanted? That's enough. Yeah, I want to thank you for your response, Sojin. I feel like I've been feeling more rooted in who I am. And I think the Sangha has been a big part of that and seeing familiar faces and routine and connections. So I'm really thankful for you and everything and the Berkeley Zen Center in general. Thank you. Chris, could you go next? Chris Evans.

[04:09]

Thank you. So, General Roshi, does practicing Zazen cultivate Metta kindness, or does Metta also need his own cultivation in addition to Zazen periods, such as during chants or work periods or work, or as we apply our Zazen clarity to all other activities? You know, There is, I'll give you a mantra. You want a mantra? Yes. Hai. Okay. I am Metta. I am Metta. That's it. Take it or leave it. Want to throw me a bone in helping me understand? I'm not helping you.

[05:13]

I want you to understand from your own understanding. I don't think he's here. Who? She or she, Darian. Darian is in Iran. Oh, he must have forgot. He didn't show up. Okay, how about Michael McVeigh? Is Michael here? He's not here either. Michael who? McVeigh. Mike McVeigh? Yeah. You must've forgot. Joel, you're next.

[06:14]

Joel is here. Hi Sajjan Rishi. I don't know if I totally have a question. I'm being very, there's so many very powerful things happening. One is terror for my country and planet. And, you know, we talked about the Morning Star, and today Mount Shasta was unbelievable. I've been working with Alan and Cherry about various things in the music world that are very disturbing to me. And Seve and I have been reaching out to people we know, and it's overwhelming how upset everyone has been and how terrified they have been to say anything.

[07:19]

So it's all very powerful. And in the middle of this, It seemed to me, I was thinking about the koan, when the great calpifier comes, will suchness, will it survive? And the teacher says no. Will it be gone with the others? I know, that's the part I don't understand. The others is... The others. What is the other? Yeah. If we practice that in some sense, there is no, you know, like the hot dog vendor, one with everything. And that's only half of it, but that one teacher said, yes, the other teacher says no. Both are correct.

[08:24]

Each one is correct. Right. Yes. The connection is a little unstable. It is. Yes. Excuse me? It is. The connection is unstable. Yes, that is true. I can still get the gist of what you're saying. Same here. Just keep saying it. Okay, let's do it. So my understanding would be it, the question is, does it survive? That's kind of suchness or being time. And my answer would be it does, because let's say everything is destroyed at this moment. There is a next moment, even if everything has been destroyed. That moment happens. And then the next moment happens, even after the great call to fire, when everything is destroyed. At the same time, everything, you know, the great globe itself leaves not Iraq behind.

[09:36]

And that's true. And that's, So it's all this inchoate stuff that is very powerful that's happening. And so I guess the question would be what guidance you can offer at this moment. Guidance. With a great conflagration at the end of time. Right. Disappears. Where will you go? I'll be disappeared. Along with everything else. Will it be gone with the other? It will be gone with the other. Will suchness be gone at that moment?

[10:37]

After that, there will be no suchness? Whatever you say is correct. That's very dangerous. And whatever you say is incorrect. Yeah, that's so Zen. Otherwise, it would not be a koan. Well, of course, the teachers said the opposite, and they're both correct. Each way, whatever you say. You're being too agreeable, Mel. Yeah. It's, yeah, it was funny because I had this thing and then I went to the web and I didn't understand anything. So the other- What's that? If you try to understand it, miss it. Yeah. That's the problem. That's good. It's a good call. You got stops up your- That's a great call.

[11:39]

Stops up your brain, stops up your mouse. Yeah, it's great. It's a great column. It's the great... It's the great corcho. Corcha? What's corcha? Corcho. Corcho. Corcho, it's Mexican for stopper. Oh, yes, it certainly is. It's a great column. So there it is. It's something that's... part of this whole, like the future of democracy, the future of the planet, the future of music. Maybe everything is gonna disappear. Yeah. You know, life on Earth is a great grinding machine. Everything gets ground up.

[12:42]

and some things have a certain kind of regeneration. So, human beings create certain recurring rhythms. Because everything that is formed is also destroyed. Yes. And whatever is destroyed is reformed. But you have no memory. Except what's written down. But what's written down will be destroyed too. Yes, that will be destroyed as well. That's right. So just go with it. Go with the flow. Go with... Yeah. The flow.

[13:43]

Let it be. Yeah. Let it just all be there. No, I'm trying to figure it out. Yes. Yes. Yes. So yeah, it's so, The gatekeeper is called Sisyphus. Yes. Ah, yes, Sisyphus with the boulder. Is he the guy with the boulder? Yeah, right. You go up and get... It's like the bird in that story with compassion, like likening the activity of the Bodhisattva to a little bird. There's a huge forest fire and the little bird gets a little water in a pond and flies to the forest fire and drops the little water on the forest fire.

[14:57]

And then it goes back and gets another little drop of water and drops it on the fire. And To help it. Do what you can to help. Do what you can. I will. Yeah, thanks. Thank you so much, Ray. Thank you, Rich. All right, we have Darian Rezazada. Darian, can you speak up? Unmute yourself. Go to the next one until I fix this. Yeah. Okay. Can you hear me? Yes. You can. Oh, good. Yes. You can hear me.

[15:58]

Turn yourself up. Turn myself up. Volume. Volume. Well, that's a difficult thing to do. Can you hear me now? Yeah Okay, good enough. I don't know No, I mean, can you hear me? I can't I can't hear you. Don't ask the question again one two, okay It's a long-distance call I know but as your volume turned all the way up The little thing there where you know, there's little lines I'm not sure I have that. You have it, every year. I do? Let's see. A microphone. It's like a speaker. Audio setting. Yes, audio setting. Volume. Volume. It's all the way up. Yes. It's all the way up. Okay, speak. It's all the way up, okay. Okay. I am about ready to start

[17:02]

Teaching Zazen in Iran Okay, okay, and I'm doing it online given the situation and One of them, I'm just basically teaching the checklist so far of Zazen okay, and avoiding the philosophical and deeper stuff for now good and one of the things that I keep confronting is that, um, over the years in Iran has been established a yoga magazine and everyone is oriented towards, um, um, you know, the yogi mogi stuff with the chakras and macros and stuff like that. Um, and, um, I'm wondering how to deal with that. I'm wondering how to deal with it. Don't just forget it. Just do what you have to do and don't worry about the yogi mogi stuff.

[18:10]

Just do your thing and don't try to compete with anybody or compare yourself to anything else. This is just this. Right, I get that part. I get our part, but I get the sense that there are some parallels with, you know, self-realization and stuff like that. Yes, there are those parallels, but you don't have to pay attention to them. Okay. Just make it simple. That's what I'm doing. I'm focusing just on the simple. Just like, this is Susan. There's nothing, you know, Although there are parallels, you don't want to mess with that. OK. OK. Thank you. You're welcome. So can somebody mention that they can't hear you that well? I don't know if you can adjust. Hear who? Me? You. Yes. Maybe can you turn up your volume or your microphone?

[19:14]

I just did. I just did. OK, good. Okay, we got Daniel O'Hara next. Daniel, can you unmute yourself? Yeah. Hi. about like mountains and rivers. I don't remember anything surrounding those terms, but I remember something about like mountains, rivers, like looking at a

[20:15]

like saying like a tree or something, but then looking at the leaves and the leaves that have fallen from the tree and the leaves that are spread about. Is there anything you can do with that? Nope. Okay. You have to be more explicit. Okay. Maybe it touches on like natural and unnatural in some way or like not necessarily natural and unnatural but like very symbolically deeply symbolically like infused and not deeply symbolically infused like like something like a computer like this computer like i kind of think of as like very like uh uh disc discriminated against other things as like uh like uh discreet

[21:35]

but like, whereas like a tree or mountains and rivers, like not more continuous. I'll give you a little story. Mountains are mountains. Rivers are rivers. When you enter practice, mountains are no longer mountains and rivers are no longer rivers. When you come through the other end, a maturity in practice and understanding mountains are just mountains and rivers are just rivers, but with a difference. But with a difference. Yes. So that's a koan for you. Thank you.

[22:44]

You're welcome. Michael McVeigh. Yes. I'm here now. Hi, Mike. Hello, Sargent. It's good to see you. So, I don't see you. I don't see you on the screen. Good light. There we go. OK. You don't look as mysterious. Is my light OK? Yeah. There we go. My broken bed lamp is useful right now. You look like you're in the attic. Yes, I wrote a little poem recently about the wildfires, keisaku sticks, pencils, a variety of things, and I thought

[24:07]

I thought about what that stick is about, that little stick is about. And I said, if there was a demand, Keisaku sticks could abound on this planet. And then I immediately mentioned how I yell at my dog. I tell my dog to be quiet. And yet I'm not quiet when I tell my dog to be quiet. That's correct. That's the thing about dogs and being quiet. Yes. That's right. Keisaku sticks are tough. Kiyosaku. How do you say it? Kiyo. Kiyosaku sticks. There is a Keisaku, but that's used by the Rinzais. Okay. Rinzais use the Keisaku. The Soto uses the Kiyosaku. I have to make sure my poem refers to the Soto Abbey.

[25:11]

Yeah, why don't you do an after-bed if you want to? Yeah, yeah, I got to get that spelling right on that. But anyway, you know, I thought about the time I pierced a bully's leg with a pencil in high school. Oh my. It's like Thoreau made a lot of pencils. There's a lot of trees out there we can make into kiyosaku sticks or pencils. There's a lot of reproofs or ways to tell others to be quiet or to make demands. It's so karmic feeling. Well, you know, we use, it's called the wake up stick. Yes. So we use it to wake up sleepers. Bach wrote a tune called Sleepers Awake.

[26:17]

Yes. That sounds like a lullaby. It sounds like a lullaby. I don't know when I'm using a kiyosaku stick or I'm just acting out of karma. Let's go. Riding the wave of karma and stabbing the bully with a pencil or yelling at my dog? Karma. What? Karma. Karma, yeah. I don't know when. I don't always know. You don't know the difference. What? You don't always know the difference. I don't always know the difference. Yeah. Well, when you want to ask your dog, to stop making a lot of racket, but it's gonna be barking, right? Our dog is jealous of our guest dog. We have a border collie who our dog is jealous of, and so every move I make, our dog is deciding to bark about it.

[27:20]

Yeah. Yes. Our dog is jealous of our cat. Yes. And so adding to the karmic load of this household by saying, Be quiet! It doesn't sound great. It's far more noisy than the dog. It is. So, how will you stop doing that? I don't know. I think the question is, appropriately, when and how to make the right demand without being caught up in karma. We have these problems. that are really hard to solve. Yeah. And so we get very, because we want something to happen from our control tower, we get very frustrated. Yeah. And then we just start making, you know, we have a little tantrum, mini tantrum, which doesn't look really good.

[28:29]

The dog just laughs at you. What was that? He just laughs at you, the dog. Yeah, she does. She laughs, yeah. That's him again. That's just him. Yeah, and you know, the bully may have laughed at me in high school. I don't know. I don't know. I feel the pain of it now. I felt the pain intensely just a few days ago when I wrote this poem. Do you have the poem? I do. What is it? We'll end with the poem. Okay, I could read it, I guess. Yes. Let me read it. Okay. Hold on a second here. I've got to get to my screen to do that. I've got to get to my email. Here we go. Okay. This morning the Zen abbot said, good.

[29:31]

when informed of the migration of wildfire ash to the point of choking into Missouri. He thinks it will teach them to vote against Trump. There is a troubled precedent since they did join the union. Everyone has a reminder to give. Quiet, I shout to my German shepherd, if there is a demand, Keisaku sticks could abound on this planet. Thoreau made a lot of pencils. I pierced a bully's leg with one in high school and get touched with the pain down the decades. So many trees we can mill before they become ash. We all want to take a turn with them. I collect redwood salvage, even when I have no idea what to use it for. The fire inspectors want me to keep it along my fence, separated from my house.

[30:35]

Let's make a right path for the flames and ash. Sticks, pencils, selves, and abbots notwithstanding. Yeah, it's hard because there's so many things wrong. There's so many things that I would like to be different. There's a lot of wish fulfillment I see all over the place. with like, good, that'll teach them. And I'm involved in all this. It's tough. Yeah, well. We don't use those sticks very often on people. No, we don't use the stick anymore. Yeah. But it was very useful and most people liked it.

[31:38]

So I don't want to say that you should use the stick on yourself. Let's see. So just stay awake. I guess I feel pain because I see how quickly one person's pain and grievance turns into causing suffering for somebody else who has nothing to do with it. Somebody doesn't make it to the hospital in time to be saved because somebody blocked the Bay Bridge for a protest. There's always something. Fire is sweeping through our forests. I just don't want it to, I want to keep it away from my house. I don't want to feed the fire. Yes. And yet that wood is very useful for making sticks, making pencils that, you know, we can weaponize these things that, you know, I mean, we have the big teacher nature is the big, you know, nature sweeps everything away.

[32:59]

Like you said, But while it's here, we're using it to get what we want. Yeah, I don't know. It's just... Things are tough right now. They're hard. They are hard. And I'm wondering if the coronavirus is like a keisaku stick for the world. It is. It is? Everybody pays attention to it. Yeah. Here's what I have to say. Equanimity and patience. Patience? Lots and lots of patience. Patience. You know, the Chinese character for patience is a person kneeling with another person standing with a sword right against their head.

[34:01]

It's called patience. It's a character with a sword over somebody else's head? Yeah, resting on somebody else's head. And who's the patient one? You. With the sword or the head or the sword? Both. Both? Yes. Yeah. Okay. What was that? Okay. Okay. Yes. Thank you. I'll have to learn about that character. Yes. It's a Chinese character you said for patience. That's what I've heard. I'll have to look that up. Thank you very much. That's a great lesson to look that character up and see what it shows us. Okay. Thank you very much. I can't see you still.

[35:05]

Yeah, the light is pretty bad. There you go. I want to check in something with you and then ask a follow-up question. We suffer because we have a mind that compares continuously our experience. This moment with something in the past, primarily, and this experience with something else that we've experienced.

[36:14]

And if we've had a nice experience, a high experience, we expect that. And if we've had a bad experience, we run away from that. We don't want that to appear again. The way out seems to be to accept everything in its absolute existence, meaning each moment, each appearance as an absolute appearing this moment. And is there what is meant by, in the third stage, like mountains are mountains, rivers are rivers.

[37:24]

Rivers? Rivers. Rivers are rivers. Mountains are, like mountains are mountains, rivers are rivers. And then the conclusion to your question. So does that sound okay? I don't remember what you said. I know what you said, but I haven't heard a sequel to what you said. or the conclusion of what you said? So the conclusion is knowing that just knowing that or experiencing that is not enough.

[38:26]

But what I was going to ask you is how do you deal with a a difficult situation, a momentary situation, do you let it be, or do you, let me just ask you that, how do you deal with a difficult situation where you're between a hard place and a rock? A rock and a hard place. You know, we have to, there's no formula. So every situation is different. And so we do what we can to deal with the situation, right?

[39:33]

And sometimes, It's a dilemma, and sometimes we can't, don't know what to do with it. You know, I don't know if you remember, you've probably been to Chinatown, San Francisco. Yes, I have. And they have this little Cornish dance corner. where they sell little trinkets and all that stuff and all that. And they have these little cigar-shaped vegetable things that you put your fingers in. And when you try to put your fingers out, they just squeeze your fingers more. Right? And the more you wiggle, the worse it gets.

[40:37]

So in order to get out of them, you have to go in the opposite direction, which is counterintuitive. That's what I do. You breathe, you breathe, you follow your breath in and out. and I let go of my struggle. Unless I can struggle out. If I can't struggle out, I just relax. And something comes up. I don't want to elaborate. That's my answer. Ellen, Len? Ellen?

[41:40]

Hi. Hey. You sound a little bit more in the balance of the earth. Really? I sound like that? I bet you are. Good. So, Dinroshi, when you say, I take refuge in Buddha, what do you mean? Well, I don't have anything in my mind. I just say that. I just say that, and it's beyond my thinking. Beyond my understanding. Is it a vow? I guess you could call it a vow. Yeah. Yeah. It's... Like I give myself over to the universe. But I'm part of the universe.

[42:48]

Equal to everything in the universe. So it's all one piece. Good. Do I have time, Gary, to ask another question? Yeah, that was pretty short. Yeah, I know. Well, your answer was pretty short, too. Gary do I have time? Yeah So, um, I Wondered if you could tell me surgeon when we use the word practice you know, there's two sort of two meanings of practice, you know, there's the meaning that like, you know the Maasai people have a practice of something or other. So that kind of practice. Or we practice something like you practice a piano or something. And so when you say practice, do you mean both those things or just one of them? Or either of them? That used to be a great question. I think both things.

[43:55]

It's like practice means your involvement, right? It means your dedication and your involvement. And at the same time, it means, like the piano, it's us every day. So, I'm trying to think of these terms, remember these terms. One side of practice, is your total dedication. And the other side of practice is your rhythm of what you're doing every day. Like you go to the zendo, and you sit zazen, and if you have a monastic practice, then it's more easy to see that side of practice.

[45:02]

because every day you kind of do the same thing, same activities. So that's one side of practice. And the other side of practice is your faith in the practice and your dedication and you feel like you are doing this. And if you do it every, it's like the piano. You do it, you know, you do it every day and it becomes part of you. Right. But do you get good at something? What? You know, like when you practice the piano, you tend to get good at piano. So when you practice, you know. Like the Zen, you get good at Zen. Yeah. Yes. I hate to say it, but it's true. But you don't do it for that purpose. It's just that you can't help it. Yeah, that's good.

[46:03]

I totally agree. But I just, I just, you already knew that, but you had to ask me. I didn't actually totally know that, but it didn't seem quite right. But that's really my experience. Thank you. Carol, Paul. Okay. Good evening, Sojin. Good evening. Sojin Roshi, a few weeks ago I heard you say that equanimity is seeing all sides. Mm-hmm, balance, that's right, yeah. However, and I like that, and then I have my preferences. Yes. And my preferences sometimes lead me, it feels like, imbalanced, over to one side.

[47:04]

Takes me out of seeing all sides. So, is that just the way it is? How do I work with that? Well, do you like, which do you like best, vanilla or chocolate? Well, I like both. You like ice cream, I'm just assuming. Vanilla. Vanilla, okay. But supposing there was nothing but chocolate? Well, then I'd like chocolate. Okay. So, what you can control, you can control. What you can't control, you can't control. So, when we can accept everything equally, that's equalimity. Equanimity. Equanimity. Everything is equal. And at the same time, everything is different.

[48:07]

So we have to balance what is equal with what is different, with variety. So we like variety. You know, it's the spice. But equanimity is like being satisfied easily, being easily satisfied. And at the same time, being able to choose, you know, what you like and what you want. So how you balance those two is equanimity. Being able to accept everything as it is and having choice. So that the choice is a, not such a strong desire. Because the desire, desire is fine, except that when it is overwhelmed by choice, it leads astray.

[49:21]

And when, We know how to limit our desire and direct it into the right direction, into a direction that keeps warm feet and a cool mind. We have a balance. So, I mean, let's just say in the situation today, The world is a little bit upside down. And, you know, we probably all have some preferences here. Yes, we do. See it go. But I guess the thing is we have to remember everyone has a side. More than one side. More than one side. Otherwise it wouldn't be equanimity. What? Otherwise it wouldn't be equanimity. Okay, yeah. That's the important thing to be equal.

[50:27]

So I guess if you get yourself a little stirred up, just try to get back to the center. Always stay in the center. Yes, always keep coming back to the center, no matter how we're feeling. That's our saving grace, is that we never let ourself get out of balance, no matter what is going on. And the more outrageous the news is, to stay in the center. And how do you stay in the center? Keep asking that question. How do you stay in the center? How do I stay centered? Yes, that's our continuous genjo koan. Genjo koan is the koan that's there every moment in our life. And when it comes to equanimity, that's a great go on.

[51:34]

So we shouldn't lose that. That's what we come back to. Come back to that center. It's just like Satsang. We sit down to do something and our mind wanders. And then we remember, oh yeah, and we bring it back. And it wanders, and we bring it back. Think the thought of Zazen. Think the thought of Zazen. So that's how we practice all the time. Yeah. We just keep returning to our center, which includes our breath. Well, thank you very much. And over. And what? Over and over. Over and over. OK. Thank you. Yeah. And we have Baika. Blanca, maybe she's coming.

[52:38]

Hang on a second. Can you hear me? Do you remember Henry Aldridge? No. Back in the 30s, Henry Aldridge was a young kid and his mother was mothering him. And she'd say, Henry, Henry Oliver. Mother. Here I am. Here I am, Mom. So, Jen Roshi. So, back to being ambivalent. So, I was thinking about this at Here I Am. still and thinking about how over the years I've kind of walked away from practice, only I couldn't do it.

[53:41]

And I've noticed over the years, quite a lot of people, they go away and then they come back and they have gray hair. hardly recognizable anymore, kind of stumbling up the Zendo stairs. And they come back after years. And I wonder what keeps us coming back. Well, once you start, you can't quit. Can you say more about that? Well, because when you start to practice, you touch the center of your being in a way that you don't touch it otherwise. and you need to go away. I never criticize people who go away because it's part of their practice to come back. That's absolutely, I don't say it's absolutely necessary, but in most cases it is. So I remember when my first Sashin at Sokochi Temple, you've probably heard this story.

[54:48]

And I'd never sat Sashin before, And I couldn't believe that people were still sitting down after doing kinhen. And it was so excruciating. And this was before lunch. So I walked out, left the sesshin, and went down to the marina. And wherever I went, there was nothing I could do. There was no way that I could do anything outside of sesshin. I was still there, no matter how far I went. So I went back and I've been doing this ever since. But I had to leave before I could realize that I wasn't, I was still there. Thank you for that story. I remember it. And I remember I left Sasheen to kind of do, because I needed to, but also because of that story, a kind of experiment.

[55:52]

it was harder to be outside of Sishing than to be in Sishing. So I just want to really appreciate you for always having, you know, an open door policy and just, as you once said, just being in the room and watching people come and go and come back. So Thank you for that. It feels like, for me, like the heart leads or something. Maybe the heart-mind just keeps bringing me back when I wander away. Practice can be so intense, you know? So it's kind of like, sometimes I need to go and gather myself. I'm pretty much okay with it now, kind of have to be. But yeah, it can get really intense. The heart of the land and the heart.

[56:56]

Yeah, got it. Yeah, got it. Thank you so much. Good to see you. Thank you. And JK? So done. How are you so effortless with discipline, with self-discipline? What makes you think it's effortless? That's just what it looks like. I don't think I have much discipline. Well, you know, what about 20 to 25 hours a week on the recorder? I don't spend that much time. 15? No, maybe four or five. That's not discipline.

[57:58]

That's like something I rush to. Yeah. Well, I guess then you've organized your life in a way that... Well, I keep organizing my life. I keep trying to organize my life. It's never the same day after day. It really isn't. To play the music, I want to make sure everybody's out of the way. So they don't have to suffer through it. And so I pick my times according to the situation. And that's pretty much the way I live my life. I kind of maneuver my life according to the situation. So it's not the same day after day. I wouldn't call it discipline, but it's a kind of discipline. Well, even waking up, even just waking up when you committed to doing zazen at a certain time. Well, I always did that in the past. It's a little different now with the Zoom.

[58:58]

Everything is more relaxed in a way. And it's hard having the discipline at this time Some people do it well. You do it much better than I do. I'm trying to be okay, you know, but yeah, I guess I just feel like there are some real superstars out there and that's just my looking at somebody else's practice, I guess. The superstars are the ones that have the hardest time. Last one so far is Chris Evans again. Sojourner Roshi, I want to thank you for over the years. You are kin to me because you are present for us.

[60:01]

You lead us from the front and you are available and you are attentive for us. So thank you. You're welcome. If I may, I do have a follow-up question. Is it possible for you to share with us at this time the lessons that we should know about Edward S. B. Brown and San Francisco Zen Center? Edward, your student. Yeah, what about him? Edward S. B. Brown and the San Francisco Zen Center. What's the thing about him? Yeah, why was he Why is he not allowed to teach there? From whatever I gathered, I certainly have an opinion about it, but it certainly seems unfair. Well, he said some things.

[61:04]

He tends to get very loose when he speaks. And sometimes he says things that offend people. And then sometimes people think that he's offensive and they complain. So there was this complaint, which turned out to be not such a big thing, but the reaction to it was very strong for somebody. That's as much as I can say about it. I don't want to talk about All the details about that, but that, that was just. Was he treated equitably in your opinion, or you want to pass on that? It was a mixed bag. Well, allow me to be grateful for your, for your presence with us. Thank you. Okay.

[62:05]

Uh, hey, so. Sojin Roshi, thank you for being here tonight. And I had a question ready and I'm glad to be able to deliver it. I've been hearing talk about our tradition coming from Suzuki Roshi and how Harada Roshi came and also helped to formulate or to maybe form some of our practice or our use of the forms. Harada? This is kind of, I'm sorry, what? Harada? Harada Roshi, am I getting that correct? He went out to Minnesota. The priest who, maybe I've got his name wrong, Sojourn Roshi, came... Kadagiri. Kadagiri Roshi, thank you so much. So I've just been hearing these stories and yeah, you can shake your head, but I'm not that smart.

[63:12]

Anyway, so the forums that we have now come from some place. And my question for you is, we talk about forums as a way of blending and going along with others, bowing together, responding and chanting together, moving in coordination, And we suggest that this lends to our separate self falling away, our sense of separateness falling away. And whatever we actually think it might be doing, my question is, this is sometimes counterposed to forms as doing it right or forms as a way of enforcing a discipline that is healthy or transformative. I'm not sure how you stand on any of what I've said and I'd like to hear how forms, how you feel about that.

[64:17]

You know, form is an aid to help us so that we don't kind of wander around And it's also a way of dropping our self-centeredness, because we're all doing the same thing. So, you know, we don't yell and shout during Zazen and stuff like that, although Koreans do that. And it's a Japanese style, and I always felt it very helpful myself Suzuki Roshi was not, Suzuki Roshi gave us the bare forms to practice with. Tatsugami Roshi was invited to come over in Suzuki Roshi's last years and to help us or give us the monastic forms to practice with at Tassajara.

[65:26]

And so he did that, and it was very helpful, and we felt that we were really learning something. And not just kind of, you know, doing our own thing. So, and Suzuki Roshi invited him. They didn't get along too well, but I enjoyed him a lot. You know, I was his first shiso. That's about 1970. And he taught us how to chant, which we lost, more or less. He taught us all the forms. He was very practical. Forms are very practical, not something just made up. Practical to help us do something together as a group. And I don't know why people, don't like that.

[66:29]

Some people don't like that. They think it's too formal. But actually, when you master the forms, everything is informal. There's nothing formal about it. It's just the way we do things. It's like you get up in the morning and brush your teeth. Somebody who doesn't brush their teeth in the morning will probably think that's very formal. So, uh, Jerry didn't have anything to do with that. No, I am just showing my own confusion and ignorance, which is always a pleasure. Thank you. I wonder then, with the enrichment, it sounds, and I already felt this way, but I wanted to hear you confirm it, how enriching it is for our being to conform, as it were, to forms when we have the opportunity or when it's for our practice in the zendo. At this point, would you say there's something we could do more? Yeah, I mean, you know, we've lost a lot of the form because of the Zoom.

[67:37]

We've lost a lot of the form because, I mean, we don't bow to the cushion anymore, you know, and we just kind of sit down or we wander around and we talk to each other and stuff like that. I have to say, though, I appreciate the number of people that sit every morning and They sit well and pay attention to some forms, but a lot of that is lost. So I'm not blaming people at all. But a lot of it is lost because we're not in the same space. We're in virtual space. Right. I'm also kind of questioning how it is in our own zendo as we were practicing before Zoom took over and looking forward to that happening again. what might we do that we weren't doing or how might we focus that we aren't focusing if that's happening in terms of enforcing or enriching? Well, I think about that, you know, and I think, I don't know if I can tell you, we have to discuss, it's more of a discussion, I think, rather than a what should we do.

[68:50]

Well, I myself, now to get personal, am thinking how much I would love to spend time in a very formal practice environment, just to see how rich it can be. Yeah, well, when we can enter the center, we'll do that. I don't know how we can do it online. Maybe we can. Well, I believe we can practice, and I'm doing my own little things, but it's still, as you say, rounding off all those edges. But I appreciate the way you're practicing now. I'm doing my best. Thank you so much, Sojourner Roshi. Ben? Yeah, last question. Hey, thank you. Oh, hi. Hi, Sojourner Roshi. Good to see you. My question is, It's my understanding that sickness, old age, and death are inescapable.

[70:01]

The three marks of existence, which you've taught on recently, impermanence, no special abiding self, suffering slash nirvana, are just the way things are. In one sense, in the absolute sense, everything is the way it is. And it's okay, maybe. Well, it doesn't bend to our preference. So my question is, then what changes with practice? If all those things are already true, whether we know them or not? You know, there are two truths in Buddhism. One is the absolute truth, and one is the relative truth. What gives us the biggest problem is the relative truth, because that's dualistic. And so there's always an opposite to everything.

[71:08]

That's the dualistic truth, is that everything has its opposite. In the absolute truth, there are no opposites. So there's no complaint. There's nothing to complain about. Everything is just as it is. So we get closer to the absolute truth when we don't complain. Or when we see everything as one. And when we see everything as two, that's the world of ruffles. When the feathers get ruffled. Because everything we do has its opposite. And so you get caught by that. Yes. aim of practice is not to eliminate one or the other, but to reconcile the two. That's what practice is about. That's what we sit Zazen. Yes.

[72:19]

When we sit Zazen, everything just comes and goes. And of course, we tend to often tend to get caught by that. Don't get caught by that. Just let everything come and go. Recognize what it is and let it go. So we don't take things up. And so we get closer to the absolute truth. Yes. There's something about one way of observing that absolute truth that I feel recently that hmm like if if it's beyond my preference so yes sitting zazen maybe helps me align my preference with the way things are but in another sense it's the world of endurance as you've taught us and so maybe this is a clumsy way of saying it but

[73:25]

If everything is the way it is anyway, then why practice? Why not just endure? That was Dogen's question when he went to China. If everything is Buddha nature, why do I have to do anything? Yeah, that was exactly his question. And that's what was resolved when he went to China. Because although that is so, unless it's practiced, it doesn't manifest. Unless we practice that truth, it doesn't manifest even though it's true. That's exactly what we practice. And even though things are just the way they are already, despite our preference or ideas about them, the fact that we practice has some effect?

[74:37]

What do you mean by effect? An effect on the world? Part of me feels like, just at this moment, that it's nice to do, and it makes sense to me, but does it, Does it, I guess I'm struggling with acceptance of things the way they are and whether my actions have some impact or not. Well, your actions do have impact. Everything influences everything in the dualistic world. Yes, absolutely. Dualistic truth. the truth of two and the truth of one. Maybe part of me is just wanting something, wanting practice to change, to change sickness, old age and death, but there is no change.

[75:38]

No, it can change sickness. I'm there to stay. Thank you, Sojiroshi. So good to see you.

[75:49]

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