I had to come home from Zen Center and just feel some frustration while I digested what was happening. A little more detail there. I am able to not hang on to anything. That's my secret. I believed my teacher. when he said, don't get caught by anything. I really believed it. And then not only did I believe it, I started acting it out. So that's where I'm at. Don't get caught by anything. I'm able to, you know, to not dwell on something. The news is what the news is. My anger is what my anger is. That's all. and I try to do what I can to assuage everybody's anxieties.

[01:06]

I don't have much anxiety. I'm gonna die. I'm on my way. What should I do? Worry about it? Everybody does this. Nobody escapes. This happens to every single person that's ever lived. What should I worry about? What should I worry about? Just follow the news. I'm just not that kind of person. I think, you know, this is what I have decided when I was young. I said, I'm just going to live my life all the way up to the end. And when it's time to go, I go. That's part of, that's life. Life is life. death so we experience it every moment here we here we are next moment here we're not this happens every moment i hear you know when i go to a meeting i hear people so

[02:26]

attached to their ideas and their preferences and what they think things should be. And there's no reason to argue about that. We should present everything that we think, but not be attached to other people's thinking or my thinking. I hear people say, when I go to a meeting, I'm so upset when I leave. I'm not upset when I leave. It's just people... communicating with each other. And I'm just as willing to change my mind as to attach to it. We should all be like that. We should be willing to change our attitude and our mind according to what's right, not according to what I want. As long as you're too attached to what you want, you suffer like crazy. Thank you. Thanks a lot. Okay.

[03:30]

We have Chris Evans, Sojun. Thank you, Sojun. One of our dokusans, we talked about a footnote within Zen teachings of Bodhidharma, where Red Pine translates something about Enchantika. And hence, At that moment, you've given me my koan, which is, when are we blameless to kill? When are we? When are we blameless to kill? Now, we're not talking about vegetables or food. Implied is, when are we blameless to kill? To chill? When are we blameless to kill? K-I-L-L. Oh, chill. Okay. Right, on a chantica. It's a kind of a Buddhist Sanskrit word. And I won't get into a definition.

[04:31]

Let me define it. Sure, go ahead. Inchantika originally means someone who has no Buddha nature. No Buddha nature. So all Buddhists believe that everyone has Buddha nature, except for the Yogacara school. They think there are people who actually don't have Buddha nature. And if you look around, you may think that's so. But anyway, so when a Dogen calls someone, a Bodhisattva, a great Ichantika, it uses the need to mean the opposite. Now, that you may have given us, shared with us, the denotation of Ichantika, but it also connotes those humans who are so selfish and psychotic that they would harm or violate or kill anything without any rhyme or reason.

[05:32]

You don't know, sort of demonic in their soul or personality and their selfishness and wanting to thieve and murder. So we're talking about the connotation of the limited definition, Ichantika, you shared with us. which is, of course, an excellent starting point. So then that is a koan that I've been meditating on as sort of a huadu. And I think we've had a few follow-up, perhaps we had one more follow-up discussions about that. And I wanted to share with you my progress, or more like lack of progress, in this koan. And so... Like all kawans or sutras, really, it's the individual who is wrestling with this concept that has to define it for herself or himself. Yet, at the same time, there is a range of understanding that is sympathetic or a shared understanding within the Mayihana Zen Buddhist heritage.

[06:40]

Matter of fact, it comes from the... Nirvana Sutra. And when I first read it, and before you pointed it out, and then I went back to Zen teachings of Bodhidharma, and sure enough, there was an end note. And the end note at the end of the note, Brad Porter shares with us, back in the day, when the Nirvana Sutra was being written, there were multiple translations of the Nirvana Sutra, but at that time, it was understood that if we, meaning the collective humans that decide to kill Enchantika, who is a psychotic, unrepairable, unfixable person, then we are to be held blingless. However, since then, the Mahayana understanding has gone away from that, and that there's at no point where that it is acceptable. Now,

[07:41]

How I come to term is that we, I as an individual, and every one of us, we have never a right to kill any person. We have responsibility and duty for self-defense and protection, but not kill, right? However, as I understand it as a part of a community, I can see how that when we have representatives that are duly chosen when they carry out sort of medicine for society, then I see how those people who are involved, where it involved somebody other than us, where there was discussion, weighing up evidence, whether it's in war or after a trial, I see how in that regard would be the only way that Bodhisattva would be blameless. How am I doing in my understanding? you know, in the history of Tibetan Buddhism, there was a monk, there was an emperor, or I think it was, who was likened in Chattaka.

[09:04]

And he was ruining the country and killing everybody. And this monk said, I'm going to kill that person. But, I would go down in hell forever. So he had to make that decision. Is it worth killing that person and for me to go to hell forever? And he killed him. But you have to pay the price. Is that because that person acted alone and not with an open, trusted dialogue among representatives? But we had to dialogue. Right. Yes, he had the dialogue. Did he had a dialogue with himself or with representatives? I wasn't there. I wasn't there. I was just telling you the story. Sure. And does that distinction matter? It does matter. You're not innocent. You can kill somebody. If you see somebody chasing a little child with a knife, you're going to kill them?

[10:12]

Right. You can make that decision. it doesn't leave you blameless sure according to your sure so it's all about circumstance it's not all about circumstances but it's uh circumstances plays a big difference you can't just you know um kill a protester because you don't like him well obviously not not obviously not something like it's okay Yeah. Well, perhaps that's an example of a Chantaka thought. Yes, it's an example. But, you know, it's deeper than that. It's about karma. But then you also have not only the right, but duty of self-defense and to protect innocents and loved ones, right? Well, that's why people go to war. But... But there are also violence that happens outside of war. I mean, unfortunately, our uniformed service people keep that kind of mayhem far away.

[11:16]

But we have criminals. So we have psychotic and crazy people and just extremely selfish people right around our community. Well, I'm not sure that crazy people are necessarily more innocent than purposeful people who are not crazy. Of course, you have to be crazy to kill somebody anyway. And you touched upon a good point. How do you deal with somebody like, for instance, Shonyu Suzuki's wife's killer, right? So now I am not saying do one thing or another, but I'm saying doesn't a society with its elected representative, shouldn't they retain a full range of medicine? Let me say something. Let me say something. I'm almost there. Shouldn't there be a choice in the community to make sure that that person isn't forced to live with somebody else later when they're out of prison? Okay, please continue.

[12:17]

Who's forced to live with who? Oh, people who are sent out of prison early after they've done mayhem and murder and heinous enchantica-like acts, right? And then you have governors or presidents or parole boards that may release somebody and then there now they can live next door to a family with children. That's a whole other argument, which I don't want to get into because it takes too much time. But back to Enchantika and this concept, is bodhisattva blameless? And so your answer is, Even if it's the right thing like Hitler or the leader of Daesh or some psychotic criminal, no matter what good you did for the community, you're still held responsible and you have blame, right?

[13:18]

I'm mixed up in what you're saying. I'm not sure exactly what you're saying. Sure. So the question is, when is a bodhisattva blameless to kill? And then... Okay. Nobody is blameless to kill. Right. So then, but then, if somebody kills somebody like Hitler or the leader of Daesh or ISO or whoever else, that is an easy example for many of us to agree that, you know, somebody like them needs to be stopped, right? Then, you know, where the... Killing is the last resort. Killing is the last resort, but it's the last resort. Yes, that's true, but that doesn't help if there are other choices that one is considering, right? Yeah, my answer is don't do it. I wouldn't. Do it. And I don't recommend you don't either.

[14:18]

However, one needs a plan. Yeah, that's right. What was that, Gary? I said, let's wrap it up. I don't need a plan. I just won't do it. That's an easy answer. Yes. The answer's not so hard. Don't do it. Don't do it. But how about the snake? You know, I see there's a leaf in front of you from your plant. It looks just like a heart. OK, Ryushin, you're on. Thank you, Chris. Good evening, Sojin. Where are you? I'm there somewhere.

[15:19]

Wave your hand. Hi. Oh, yeah, hi. OK. I thought you'd be interested to know, I just got back from talking with Christine Moss and Kota. Uh-huh. She was the animal communicator. You're breaking up. Kota had this insight that instead of leading with her ideas and her snout, she needed to, when she had difficulties, she needed to lead with her heart. I thought she lived with her teeth. That's what I mean. She realized that there was a better choice. I thought you would like that. And it relates to the question that I was going to ask you. You have an unusual way of seeing what's really inside us when we are asking you our questions.

[16:29]

seem to see beyond where we're able to see and I really want to understand how you're able to do that. I don't know. Has it always been that way? Yeah. I remember when I was driving a taxi cab back in the 50s and 60s. And I would get people in the cab and they would start talking to me. Everybody had a story. I heard a million stories. And sometimes I didn't want to cut people off. And we came to the end and we talked for an hour, you know. And I didn't make as much money.

[17:30]

But I felt that I had to do that. I felt that it was my obligation to listen to people's stories and let them unburden themselves. And so I don't say that I have any special insight, but I do listen to what people say. And I try to understand what people say. If they need some advice, I don't know. I don't really give people advice. I just kind of listen to their stories and nod my head. My experience of you in Dokusan, but especially we get to see it in Shosan and sometimes in lecture, that you... You know what's underneath the story.

[18:33]

You know the essence. You know how to touch the essence of people. And you have the great privilege of working with many of us over many years, so you've heard all the stories. You know us in some way pretty well. But you can see the essence. For me, that's your... great gift as a teacher, and maybe that's just the gift you were given, but I'm really interested in how that was cultivated, how that was polished, how that was brought forth, how that matters, as you know, to me more than anything, is to touch the essence. That's my work as a palliative care person, but I also, it's the joy in life to be there in that place with people. Well, I have a certain amount of freedom.

[19:35]

And so I like to bring people up to my level of freedom. But you know, I also have very hard times. I don't always show my hard time. I just help people to reflect on where they are. Would you tell us about one of them now? No, because it's all private. I never talk to some, and I didn't say I never do this, but I rarely talk to people about other people or about my experiences, and I forget. I just do something and then I forget. I never listen to somebody else's conversation. If people are near me and they're talking to each other, I just tune out.

[20:41]

I don't want to hear what they're saying because it's their business. It's not my business. So I just pay attention to my own business and allow people to enter my space when it's appropriate. But I have sympathy for people. I really have a lot of sympathy for people. And as soon as I'm addressed for anything, I turn to them. Yeah, I think we all love you for those qualities. Thank you. Well, thank you. Sue Osher. Thank you. Sojin Roshi, I'm here. I'm here.

[21:44]

Today, Gordon has been gone. I'm getting feedback. Gordon's been gone since October 10th. What was that? Gary, did you say something? Yeah, I'm asking Sojin to unmute. I muted him by mistake. Sorry. Okay. He'll be right there. Somebody had their mic on, and it was... Andrea's still, okay. So, Sojin, you're muted still. Can you unmute?

[22:45]

Can you hear me? How's that? Good. I can move, and I finally unmuted, but by a different channel. Yeah. Yeah, I realized after I woke up this morning, today is September 10th, and Gordon died 11 months ago. Oh. And it colors my day. And also there's great joy in having been with him for so long. And I wanted to talk to you about joy. I find that some of the mindfulness about breath

[23:55]

instructs me to call forth joy and happiness just simply saying while I breathe in I experience my whole body and I find joy and or happiness and it doesn't it's just simply recalling that it doesn't mean I feel it but something comes from that, Sojan, something comes from that. And that's, I thought I'd just let you know and see what you have to say about it. What I have to say about it is that there are different levels of joy, but the deepest level of joy is Nirvana, which means it doesn't depend on anything. It doesn't depend on how you're feeling. It doesn't depend on circumstances.

[24:56]

It's just your basic nature is joy. And we draw on it for various occasions. But it's something that is always there. And even in the deepest problems that we have, joy is always there. And when it's not, That's despair. The fact that we can have our ups and downs and our desperate moments and our most wonderful moments, joy is always there regardless of. It's like an underground stream. It's always there. Well, actually, it's called the ocean. And you're a little wavelet on the ocean.

[25:58]

And when you rise, you feel that joy. It's the activity of the ocean. Joy is the little waves that are the activity of the ocean. And when it's calm, that's the best. I don't say it's the best. I said it's the best, but it's wonderful. Yeah. So I think that's where we can go. It's called breathing, deep breathing. Yes. What you said. So there's joy and pain and there's joy and disappointment. Don't lose that. It's what carries you through. Yes. There's joy in a fountain, too.

[27:08]

I always think of fountains with joy. Yes. Yes. Well, the fountain goes up, and then it falls down. Yeah. Yeah. That's the cycle of our lives, moment by moment. That's our breath. Yes. Our breath is a fountain. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Kika, Susan? Hi. Sojan Roshi. I just had a unique experience, you know, I... I practice in my body for the most part. I really practice in my body. And before, well, I want to say what happened, but is there a hazard of practicing really deeply with your body first?

[28:14]

I don't know about first or second. We're always practicing with our body. Yeah. That's just a body practice. No problem. If you're not practicing with the body, that can be a kind of problem. Okay. I mean, I struggle with, you know, I don't struggle with, but I think about, you know, articulating our practice. And that doesn't really come so easily for anybody or me. And so I worry about that a little bit. the experience I just had is that I practice a lot with patience. And I had a, you know, just during this public docuson, I had some impatience, real deep impatience. And, you know, I just, I turned it right around and it just seemed like such a gift.

[29:21]

And I just did it by feeling that in my body and then recognizing it oh the body said there's something going on what is it uh so i saw it and then i just zazen and and focused and listened and and it was just lovely and and that i can do that is just a such a gift i want to thank you for that well your body feels everything that you think feels everything that you think. Yes. Also, I sometimes used to say to people who didn't know how to go, you know, when I go home, when they go home to their parents, you know, they're kind of shaking in their boots, but telling them what they've been doing. And so I used to say, if you want a good colon,

[30:24]

go home and explain Zen to your mother. Oh, that's a good one for me. Thank you. Well, some others are sympathetic. Actually, my mother was sympathetic to me. I couldn't believe it. But my father, you know, she used to, I would go home, this is back in the 50s, no, back in the 60s, when I first started practicing. And she would, say, send me $5. Once in a while, about twice a year, she said, but don't tell your father I gave you this. That's how I used to live when I was a kid. I never thought about you going home to your parents after practicing a little bit and getting their feedback, you know, getting their whatever. Few times, few times.

[31:25]

I have another question about, you know, how can the Oquesa be heavy? How can it be? Heavy. Heavy? Oh. Just like the practice. How can my practice be heavy? Because your true robe, is your skin. Thank you so much, Shojin Roshi. Kabir, you're on. Thank you, Gary. Hi, Shojin Roshi. Oh yeah, hi. Hi. You talked about Humpty Dumpty on Saturday and all the pieces.

[32:36]

I sort of see that all the pieces, you know, sort of scattered. And each piece, for me, it sort of represents sort of a feeling. You know, fear, regret, shame, anger, and all that. And nowadays, there are quite a few triggers surrounding all of us. of fear, anxiety, and all that. It's a buffet of, you know, all kinds of stuff that we're constantly being served from all types, you know, all the different sources. And one of my favorite quotes from you is, you know, don't get caught by anything, right? How? I mean, Okay. Well, I remember it was something that the Korean master, Sun Sunim, used to say. He used to say, go straight, don't look back.

[33:39]

Go straight. That was his theme. Go straight. Don't turn around. What's gone is gone. even though it affects you. It affects all of us. The past is the present. The future, there's no such thing as the future. Even though we think about the future, yes. In a certain way, in a mundane way, there's the past and the future. But in an absolute way, everything is just now what it is. You know, one of the things that has been helping me, and I try to remember that, is I had this sort of feeling that, you know, that our child side, that the past is still sort of, it's going on, you know.

[34:52]

So what I've been doing, and it's been very helpful, is that I'm sending comfort and enjoy and somewhat healing by just reassurance to the younger self of me. And I even said, it's the present moment now and we made it through. And whatever you're going through is passing. And to make it a little cheesy, it's like, I'm here for you, right? That's not cheesy. And I even had this weird feeling that when I was a kid or when we were a kid and we experienced some sort of a trauma or some kind of a hardship, and when we're laying in bed or we're hiding in a corner and we get this sense of reassurance or we get a sense of love and like an internal hug,

[35:59]

And I think maybe it's because our present self is sending that to us in that moment. I don't know. But, and then what Sue was saying was joy. And so these things are all wonderful. I just, going straight is difficult because the other thing too is that difficulty and trauma they they they sort of taste good sometimes you know because we sort of want to i don't know we we kind of hold on to them so like you know feeling miserable is also habit forming yes yeah of course anger is habit forming miserable is habit for me you know if we can't be happy then we can be miserable right So we trade in being happy for being miserable.

[37:01]

Yes. That's true. That's duality, right? Yes. There's one thing, and it goes this way. I mean, Master Banke used to say, you're given this wonderful thing called Buddha nature. And you trade it in for anger and killing and all kinds of detrimental things. And you make yourself miserable. And you bring up all these terrible, stupid questions. Yeah, I mean, why? Yeah, that's a good question. We have our human nature. We have our Buddha nature. the buddha nature is our innocent being it's our it's our gift but because of our human nature which is always ambivalent that's just the way it is that's life

[38:21]

what we call life is suffering suffering and happiness right i don't want to condemn it it's our nature because of the way the world is built the world is built on but our true nature is free from that yeah so i happen to be an optimistic kind of person and i'm always trying to make people feel good or feel happy or feel that they can do something, release them from their anger or release them from their misery. That's just my nature. And so when Laurie asked me that question, and I try to think about it, I don't want to say that I'm a nice guy or something like that, but I feel that I can influence people or help them in some way. encourage them, maybe, to find a way to be happier. And the way to do that is to lose yourself.

[39:23]

When you lose yourself, you gain yourself. You know, there's nothing wrong being a cheerleader sometimes, you know? There's nothing wrong being a cheerleader sometimes, you know? It's okay. There's nothing wrong with it. And I do have a story to share. Something in common. So you said you were driving a taxi before, and you had a conversation. So for a while, when this whole Uber thing was happening, I was driving Uber for a while. And I tell you, one of the best conversations I ever had was with the riders. You know, we pull over and stop the meter and, you know, I was like, John drives with like Dharma in him and talking about all this, you know, I was like, but yeah, I mean, that's life, you know, but. You meet everybody. You meet everybody when you're in Texas. Yes, yes, yes. You did it for six years. Wow, wow. Well, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, soldier. Thank you. All right. Joel, you're on.

[40:25]

Hi, surgeon. Can you see me? I can if I can find you. Oh, here I am. It's getting cool. Hi, Mel. Great to see you. This has been wonderful. don't want to ask you about it is um I was having a conversation with Alan recently and I was talking about being um feeling attacked and Alan said no they're tech attacked like attack by well various people like yeah uh and he said no, how you feel about an event is up to you. So it might seem you're being attacked, but that's your decision to feel like you're being attacked.

[41:30]

And I said, you know, you're right. And in thinking about it, I was kind of a little shocked that I said that, but I think it's true. but really hard. And so it seems like a gift of tremendous freedom to be able to do that. And it's really hard and it seems, and so I guess basically, I guess the question is how to suggest I work on that and develop my capacity to do that. Yeah. Right. You should go back to Hozon and ask him that question. Okay.

[42:32]

I will. That's the plan. But yeah. Okay. So you said so many things tonight that were like so and seem to come to all these questions I have. And now I forget all of them. It's like I forgot everything we said in our first episode. Just forget all of them. It's so great to see you, man. Thank you. Thank you, Sojin. Rob Walker? Hey, Sojin. Oh, hi.

[43:33]

So my question is something that's been bothering me for a while since I read Brian Victoria's book, Zen at War, which you are probably familiar with, but maybe not. So my question is, I've been taught that the practice of zazen gives rise to a feeling of compassion for the suffering of all beings, that compassion will arise with the practice of zazen. Yet at the same time, we have examples of very accomplished Zen practitioners and teachers and Roshi who have been intimately involved in the creation of a lot of suffering. And I'm thinking specifically here of the historical example of the Japanese Zen masters who actively taught troops Zazen techniques

[44:34]

that they then practice when they went to engage in imperial actions against China or Korea or other type of things. And there's a long history in Zen of this interaction with Bushido, with warrior ethics, which seems counterintuitive to the notion of compassion arising. So I'm trying to figure out how to practice with this historical fact. Yes. Well, you know, it's a very complex and not complicated, but complex story. So there's not enough time to really talk about it, but I will say this about it. My experience with Japanese Zen community is that has to do with Japanese society.

[45:42]

And at that time, before the Second World War, the emperor was the emperor. And everybody paid a business to the emperor. It's a national thing. And the community, the priests, also were nationalists. It's just part of society. So we don't have that feeling. We're a democracy. So the contrast to us in our democracy and the Japanese imperial loyalties are opposites. So... The way it works out is that, in my understanding, is that the country and the emperor come first.

[46:45]

For us, Buddhism comes first, right? Who cares about his president? We don't operate in that way, although we want to. I mean, that's coming if we don't be careful. you will have a dictatorship right around the corner. So, but when the, I think not all of the, I think that a lot of Zen priests had mixed feelings, but they could not express the mixed feelings. If you express, anything against the emperor or the society, you'd be eliminated right away. So there are various reasons why those Japanese priests supported the emperor because there was no other way out.

[47:54]

But when the priests came to, well, when Suzuki Roshi came to America and other Zen priests as well, They tried to give us something. Suzuki Roshi came to America and he said, I came because I wanted to give you the best of, you've received the worst of Japan. I want to introduce you to the best of Japan. That's why he brought his practice over. At least that's what he did when he observed who we were. So yes, it's true, you know. But you have to understand the circumstances. And so that, you know, in all of the time that I worked with the Japanese shumacho, maybe 25 or 30 years, something like that, we tried to...

[49:01]

find a way where we could meet. But they were always the leader, you know, we were the kids. And as soon as we made some progress on the edge of progress in actually finding some way to integrate, they changed the subject. They sent their representatives back to their temples, you know, and then we were left with nothing. And this kept going on and on. Every time we make some progress, they'd throw a roadblock in front of us because they realized, oh, they're not Japanese. Oh yeah, you guys aren't Japanese, are you? And so we can never make any progress. It was always a lot of frustration because They're Japanese and we can't be Japanese no matter how hard we try. So this is the difference between democracy and nationalism. But what we did receive was the good part of the Japanese, what we felt was real.

[50:10]

And so our Japanese teachers gave us all their love. And of course, they realized that, you know, that that wasn't their culture anymore. But it's still there. The culture is still there. The nationalism is still there. But little by little, it breaks down. So my relationship with them was, I just want to practice with them to see how we can actually meet each other and integrate with each other in some way. That's always been my goal in practicing with them. So little by little, we integrate the world if we can. At least we do what we can to integrate the world. And although there's blame, it changed a lot after the war.

[51:20]

We really changed a lot, but it's like turning this ship around. It's a really hard thing, to put it mildly. A really difficult thing. So as much as there's wonderful goodness in people, the other side is also true. As a matter of fact, the more good people are, the more bad they are, because everything invites its opposite. Everything invites its opposite, so you have to be very careful. What you wish for. We wish for peace, but that's been happening since the beginning of time. Peace and more just exchange places. You know, people get, as soon as something gets up a little too high, it comes back the other way. I called it the pendulum. Pendulum swings up here. And then it swings this way.

[52:22]

And oh boy, everything can be great. And then it goes back the other way. Oh my God, it's awful. And it goes back the other way. That's the law of circularity. So you fight as hard as you stand for peace. You really, you know, everyone has their personal drama and their personal drama is how we face our life. Sometimes we're good and sometimes we're bad. And sometimes, and good and bad exchange each other as well. What was good 50, 60 years ago is bad today. And what was bad then is good today. Anyway, here we are. Thank you. We have Ben.

[53:23]

Hi, Sojin Roshi. Can you see me? Yeah, dude. I will try to be brief. I recently was away on the East Coast helping my aging parents move and going through a lot of old things, both my own and theirs. And I was just struck by how much of it there was And two things sort of stay with me. One is that there's so many things that we give each other or we save. There are these objects that have so much meaning. We save them, we put them in a box, and it seems like they just sit in the box until they are open to be thrown away, which feels very strange. And then I could also feel going through these. So in a sense, they all felt discardable, although it was hard to discard them. But I also felt a real power in going through these old things and the memories that came back.

[54:28]

And I felt a real pull from them, which was sometimes felt beneficial and sometimes felt not so beneficial. So my question is, how should a Zen student approach things and the saving of things and mementos and old letters and old childhood things? That's a good question. I mean, it's an interesting question because we all, you know, have that, what should I hang on to? And who's going to be disappointed if I throw something away? So you're binding yourself to something. If you just keep everything, you know, old people who kind of find themselves alone, You know, the house is disintegrating, and they're not moving around much, and the place just gets full of junk. And then it catches on fire sometimes.

[55:29]

But there are places where you walk through houses, where you walk through the houses, and it's just like stuff, stuff, you know, that nobody... So it's hard to free yourself when you do free yourself. and breathe again. So all this stuff, it kind of holds down your breathing. It's like a weight, you know. And when you do throw something away, stuff away that you've been accumulating for years, you walk past and it's just like a tree that's growing there. You don't even know it's there. So it's great to throw stuff away or get rid of stuff. I would say it's, you know, you free yourself from a certain kind of bondage. As long as it makes you feel free, you can get rid of it. But I'm not telling you what to do.

[56:35]

I'm just saying how I feel when I get rid of stuff. Then I think, oh, where's that thing? We have to be careful. Yeah, I definitely experience that feeling of freedom and freer breath. But just the moment of discarding can sometimes feel difficult. It can feel like you're, I don't know, this weird pull or responsibility to an object, which part of me realizes that it's not reasonable. But I want to, I don't know, have treated something with care and honor it in some way. Yes, so you get rid of certain things by honoring them and getting rid of them in ways that honor them, rather than just discarding. Some things you just discard, and some things, you know, like I remember Master Hua, they used to print, what was the name of their publication?

[57:45]

But anyway, He used to say when you do get rid of a photograph of the Buddha, or a statue, or want to get, you know, you find all these Dharma publications with all these Dharma stories, you can burn it if you want to, but you should be careful that you have a purpose. and that you're honoring it. And so if you can't do anything with it, don't just throw it in the trash, but do something that honors the publication. That's why we have so many Dharma publications. I don't know what to do with them. It was called the Dharma Bodhisattva, and it was really great. It was Chinese Muslim. Thank you, Sotun.

[58:50]

I gave all of mine. We had a whole bunch of them, but didn't know what to do with them. So I gave them to the Chinese temple. So find somebody that you can help, that these things will help. Also, if you make a vow that anything that comes to you is a gift, you are okay giving it to somebody else. That will help a lot. you know, people used to call American Indians, Indian people who gave stuff away that they were given Indian givers. That's because Indians didn't, they didn't, they weren't attached to things. Somebody gave it to them, they gave it to somebody else. What's wrong with that? Okay, Lynn. Yeah. Where?

[59:58]

Who? Hello. Go ahead. Hi. I really wasn't prepared to ask a question, but then you were saying so many things. I had questions. My deepest things pressing me, but here they go. Some of them are related. So you were talking about the Well, this Ajantika. But this concept that there might be people with no Buddha nature. And one, you mentioned the school, and I'm wondering, what school is that? Oh, yeah. Yogacara school. That's a school of yogis. Because have they have had the experience and been struggling with you know, someone I think perhaps really sociopathic and others damaged where you really feel you know some truth of who they are, the Buddha nature, and yet this is not what is expressed in this human nature's incarnate.

[61:10]

You know, we say, in the Mahayana, we say, as somebody said, the Nirvana Sutra said, all beings have the Buddha nature. Dogen reinterpreted that to mean all beings are Buddha nature. So it's not that somebody can't be left out. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. In one sense, nobody can be left out because everything is Buddha nature. But in a different sense, Not everybody acts like they have Buddha nature. Some people don't act like they have any Buddha nature. They're just totally ruthless. So in that sense, there are people who are Chantikas, because they don't act like they have Buddha nature, even though they do have it. So everyone is salvageable.

[62:12]

It means everybody can be salvageable. And then what I know it's very... But everyone can. Potentially everyone is salvageable, but it doesn't mean they can be. And how would you respond with love, as I know you would do and would want to do, when you encounter that? Well, first of all... When you do feel you are under threat. Yeah, well, we're always under threat of one kind or another, right? So since we're always under threat of one kind or another, even though you don't realize it, you have to find out how to do that. In other words, you have to believe it. You can't do it if you don't believe it. I do believe it, and yet I have.

[63:21]

So that will help you. It's like Linda was asking you, you know, when you come up against, and you know it. Maybe it was Linda, but there you are. You're stuck. You don't know what to do. The thing is, you have to be willing to die. Yes. For what you believe. You know, there was, in Rome, Christians were thrown into the lions in the arena. And everybody happily saw them being eaten. And there was this one woman who, she went out there and she tamed the lions. And she was given this big ovation. And then she went out to the emperor and she said, you have to kill me.

[64:23]

You can't release me because I'm not under your rules. You can't rule me and you can't release me. So kill me. And she made me do that. She won. The hard way. So you have to be willing. to stand by what you say. And then you go to the bottom of your life, the bedrock of your life and act from that place. That's how you know where everybody is. Where everybody is or where you are? Well, if you know where you are, then you know where everybody is.

[65:34]

Then you said something back about this when he was asking about his cologne and the killing. And he said, well, yes, you may choose to in need. And then you pay for it, like everything. And then you send me and go to hell. And then you kill them. And then it made me think. I was so shocked. And I thought, do you believe in hell? I believe in hell? Yes. This is hell, and hell is where we dwell. Right. This is heaven and hell. I believe that on earth. But I'm asking about this notion of a hell after death. Oh, I don't know anything about after death. So now I can tell you one thing. But because you were talking about it, I thought, oh, he believes. So it's different, but I want to share it with the group, and it's not the whole of it. But I have had the experience. My mother died in 2016.

[66:37]

There have been a couple experiences actually mind-blowing to me. of, you know, her, in a way, her presence, her return. One was actually a manifestation, which I sent photos. I completely torched apart, completely blackened. I spent a half an hour cleaning out the inside with bon ami and metal, and this was the night of my departure from the home after she died, although it was the next year. And... When I turned it on, I was really upset. It was 2 in the morning. I had a flight. I wasn't ready. I couldn't leave this for my 91-year-old stepdad. And I turned it over, and the water hit it. And all of the black came off outside. You know, it's an old Revere wear pot with the stainless and the copper. It all flushed off with not a touch. And what remained was a pattern of five very distinct black hearts

[67:39]

on the bottom of the pan on the copper, I could kind of feel and hear my mom, it's okay. And I could just feel that love, that it was her, but it was, you know, all mothers. So that was very mind blowing in terms of a metaphysics, because I always believe that love continues, who knows how, but I believe that there's endurance and something continues. And I also believe, as you said, well, birth and death, this is life. This is endless. This goes on. I believe just ecologically things aren't lost. But I didn't really have any concept or belief necessarily. I know I was thinking, is there a soul? How would I know what happens after death? But now I have had this really direct experience that some kind of personality i mean a heart was her look this is her jacket hearts was everywhere hearts is her thing this is her logo and uh so there was like no question about this communion this communication and then very mind-blowing that well not only does love survive there's some kind of identity there's some kind of

[69:03]

So that really surprised me. And then, of course, it informs how you look at things. Maybe it already is in your mind, but. Well, this is longer than I can. Could you sum up with a question? no i don't have a question i just want to share to let me respond let me respond to you okay love doesn't come or go it just is yes that's all i have to say okay yes that's true So do you want to take more people or is this a good stopping place?

[70:07]

I don't know if people want to stick around. There's only one electronic hand. Okay. We could do one more. Oh, we got two, Ross and Christian. Ross, you go first. Be succinct. Yes. Oh, somehow you're muted. Ross, you got to unmute. Good evening, Sojan Roshi. I was thinking back to Laurie's question that you seem so happy and you spoke about being joyful and there's joy. And then a little later, you mentioned that you keep your personal koans or dilemmas private. And you've mentioned that to me as well, that we keep our koans private to ourselves. We don't necessarily share them. And I think perhaps that's because it's our own work that we have to do.

[71:13]

So my question is, I believe you think you're saying that joy doesn't mean being happy. And that's... that we think that there's joy in sadness and sorrow, there's joy in despair. And what is that, what's the quality of that joy that transcends happiness and sadness? Is it just that being alive is enough, as Yosuke Roshi told you? Well, if you're truly alive and that's enough for you, then that's true, yes. When you totally appreciate, your life, regardless of whether it's happy or unhappy, happiness is an expression of joy. But, you know, true joy is found in unhappiness.

[72:14]

And it's found in happiness. It's not dependent on the circumstances. What I emphasized about was that it was not dependent on how you're feeling. On the circumstances that create how you're feeling. When we depend too much on that, when we can just give ourselves to whatever is present, that's true joy. So joy means being completely present with what is. Yes. But it's beyond what we would like to experience. Okay.

[73:23]

Thank you very much.

[73:25]

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