Good evening. When I was writing an introduction to our new Suzuki Roshi book, it occurred to me that when Suzuki Roshi was giving a talk, everybody sets eyes in, as well as they could. and nobody said anything. Everybody was listening to the talk, and there was no dialogue going on. And we were encouraged to not have a dialogue going on in our mind about the talk, but simply keep our mind open and listen to the talk.

[01:00]

And then at the appropriate time, you could ask questions. But otherwise, zazen was more important than the talk. Zazen was first, and the talk was simply encouragement about zazen in all its forms. So that was pretty nice because we didn't have our opinions being scooted around in the background. So that was the way we were taught to listen to a talk. I just wanted to let you know that. So it's time for your questions. OK, I'm going to unspotlight you, Sojin, so you can dialogue back and forth. OK.

[02:03]

Cancel spotlight. OK. First is Judy Fleischman. You can unmute yourself. Step forward. Thank you. Thank you, Sojin Roshi, for that wonderful introduction. It feels like it really bridges well to my question. In that spirit, that this dialogue is unfolding the Dharma, if you will. It's not so caught up, hopefully, right? In my opinion. I'm wondering what your understanding is of the relationship between being able to really touch deeply into pain, into grieving, that isn't that stuck place of grieving for the world as unhelpful attachment, you know, clinging or pushing away.

[03:11]

And I was particularly wondering about that in terms of the Brahmavihara Bhupeka, of equanimity, your understanding of equanimity. Well, that's a good point. Yes. You know, we all feel the pain of the world. Compassion, you know, is one of the Brahma-viharas also. And each one of the four contain the other three. So in the case of equanimity, and compassion. Compassion is the outflow of our feelings for everyone in pain and suffering. So Buddha teaches, we often hear this, it said, the only thing I teach is suffering and how you deal with it.

[04:15]

That's my interpretation, not how you get rid of it. but how you deal with it. So in the case of equanimity, all things are equal. That's not duality. All things are equal. That's equality. So how do we express equality? How do we embody it? You know, people have different ideas about what zazen is. Dogen says it's the comfortable way, right? Zazen is the comfortable way. But when we start sitting zazen, we think, damn it, this is blah, blah, blah. But actually, zazen is the comfortable way. But we have to understand in the realm of equality that pain And suffering include joy and happiness, and joy and happiness include pain and suffering.

[05:27]

So we want one and we don't want the other. Some people want pain and suffering, I don't know, but that's no different. We all want the joy without the suffering. We all want the pain. I mean, we all want the good feelings without the pain. But you can't have one without the other. You cannot have one without the other. That's why we know what pain is, right? We know what suffering is. Because even though we want happiness, we can't have it without the pain and suffering. That's the rule. That's the law of the universe. Everything suffers. And everything, hopefully, will have some joy. So within the joy is the pain, and within the pain is the joy. That's the way it works. And is the way that you touch into that, you know, as we do on the cushion, it's not some intention to be, you know, looking for the joy in my pain.

[06:35]

It's just, there it is again, breath. Well, that's what, yes, when you begin, that's true. As you become mature, you just simply cross your legs and then there's this feeling. Suffering is when you don't like the feeling. Think about that. Because the suffering, although, you know, we don't think about it this way, it's in our mind. It's in our consciousness. We create the suffering because we don't like the situation we're in. It seems like what's happening is we can't will ourselves into these things. It's just the repetition of, oh, the bell rings, put on your robe, sit down. Feels like that's the simple practice. It is. I get caught in an idea of what to turn towards. Yes, it's the simple practice.

[07:36]

It's like whatever experience there is, that's what's there. Equanimity is the ability to see all sides and to not fall into suffering. But suffering is important. Without the suffering, we can't really live our life. So suffering is an opportunity. Pain is an opportunity. Pain is an opportunity to practice equanimity. Well, it also sounds like what you're talking about is what it is to be a bodhisattva. Well, of course. Or even to be a Buddha. Okay. Thank you.

[08:39]

Hi, Leslie. You're down there in my left-hand corner, but I can't hear you because you're turned off. Yeah. How's that? Good. That's better. Well, it's good to see you. Me too. Yeah. Missed having the opportunities to chat with you and have docus on, so here we are. Okay. I was wondering, I imagine you knew Yvonne Rand. Oh, of course, very well. And with her passing, I wondered if you wanted to say, I mean, she was actually the first Zen teacher I encountered. Mm-hmm. Well, you know, back in the 60s, right? She was Suzuki Roshi's attendant for a long time. And she was very efficient. She really was smart and efficient and really took good care of Suzuki Roshi. And after he died, she became the secretary of Zen Center.

[09:49]

And she was so good at that. She was really good at it. And when it came time to have a new secretary, I thought, how can there possibly be somebody to take her place? Because she had her finger in every aspect of Zen Center and all the peripheral people who were connected with Zen Center. And she just really ran the place, basically. And then, as time went on and we had a new abbot, the second abbot, there was a lot of inner, a lot of discord. And she finally ended up leaving Zen Center, more or less, and taking up practicing with the Tibetans. It was kind of a refuge for her. And then she had this wonderful place downstream from Green Gulch called Goten Road.

[10:57]

Great name. She helped the Tibetans in there to relate to America and so forth. That was a big contribution for her. She was somewhat estranged for a long time from Zen Center. I always very much enjoyed her and tried to help her. which was not so easy at one point, but in the end, we became good friends. So, and then she moved further north and now she's gone. That's the short version. Right. Yeah. Quite wonderful. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome.

[11:59]

Um, so my question has to do with, um, direction and intention and the path. And I've been thinking about that off and on, um, well forever, actually, even as a little girl, but, um, so I think I was always tending to think of finding the direction of our life as something that was kind of out there. And I think partly it has to do with, you know, getting older and looking back on life and looking ahead and not, I don't do too much of that, but I just think about what I might be doing. And every so often just kind of pausing and questioning and my What's my direction what is my aim But then I was thinking that you know, I feel like I'm pretty Present and responding to things as they happen kind of going with the flow a lot is How I've kind of lived my life and not so much being really ambitious and like a desire to go out and Make something happen myself

[13:27]

you know, it's been more on the quiet side. So I just wondered, but then I think, you know, being in the present moment and just seeing what's happening there and being aware of everything seems to be, so is it just a point or is it a path? The path is, It's like a cat and a mouse. Like the cat sits quietly at the doorway to the mouse in his little home. And sits very quietly and with equanimity. And doesn't move around.

[14:33]

This is called relaxing the mind. And then as soon as the mouse appears, very quickly takes on the mouse. So that's an example of the path. You're practicing zazen all the time and meeting circumstances. And the way you meet circumstances is with a Quiet mind. That's basic. Quiet mind and open heart. Yes, totally open and ready for anything. It's like, one of the examples is like the warrior. The warrior doesn't go around cutting people's heads off. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

[15:36]

This is quiet within himself. or herself, and then as soon as those circumstances change, you're ready to do something. So sometimes that could be internal or external, I imagine. It's internal, but there is no internal and external, even though there is. It's all one piece. Right. Be content within yourself. That's called zazen. be content within yourself, and then you meet circumstances with that quietness of mind, and then you respond accordingly. Sounds good. That's the path. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm glad to be on it with you. Thank you. Is Troy in the audience?

[16:42]

Troy? I think he's missed again. So let's do Alex. Hi, Sajan. Alex, hi. Hi. Oh, hi, Alex. Good to see you. How are you doing? I'm good. Good? I'm in Indiana, so it's past my bedtime. I have a... Don't keep me up too long. Okay. I'll keep my question short. I have a simple question about Zazen. Everyone who's ever taught me how to do Zazen has told me to count my breaths. Oh, yeah. But I also read about Shikuntaza and understand that this method is one of undirected attention. And so I'm confused about where to place my intention.

[17:47]

Okay. Well, um, counting your breath is a device, so it helps us to keep our, my, our, our attention focused. That's, that's all it's about. So it's good to, when you're, when you learn how to sit zazen, it's good to count your breaths. And then when you really have a difficulty, you don't know what to do. You start counting your breaths automatically because it helps you to focus. Instead of focusing on your pain, you focus on your breath, counting your breath. One, two, and then the count becomes absorbed into your whole body. It's not just counting sheep. So one is your whole breath and your whole body, mind, and your breath, in each breath. And then it takes your mind off of your suffering, sort of. So that's useful.

[18:50]

The shikantaza, as you say, is, more unfocused or not, it's not pinpointing focus. It's like wide focus. So there's narrow focus and wide focus. So when you have trouble with your wide focus, you come back to your narrow focus and count your breaths. So it's a nice device. Suzuki Roshi used to say, it's like the handle on a cup. You can handle the cup without the handle. But when you're in trouble, it's nice to, when you're feeling feeble, you just use the handle on the cup. So they're not, you know, various devices. And I want to say, I really appreciate your little globe you sent me. Oh, you're welcome. I was handling it today. I hope you're well. I am. Yeah. So let's stay in touch. Yes, that'd be nice.

[19:58]

Thank you. Okay. Next up is Daryan. Who? Daryan. Daryan. Thank you. Daryan. He's from Iran. Yes. Hello. He's in Iran. Hi, Daryan. Hi. Can you hear me? Oh, vaguely. I'll up my thing. How's that? That's better. Is that better? Yep. OK. It'll take just a minute or two before I get to my question. I want to sort of lay the groundwork of what my question is, if you'll just give me a minute. It's a question concerning small mind, big mind, levels of consciousness, and the nature of the mind. We're all familiar with small mind where we're self-centered, discriminating, and monkey mind is the most active aspect of our mind.

[21:10]

Let's say after Seshin, we're very mindful, settled, present, and hopefully egoless. Then let's say we have an enlightened experience. So we have these three aspects of the mind. Then there exists an aspect of the mind that's aware of all of those three. There's a level of our mind that knows that monkey mind is active or knows that we are mindful or we're not mindful. There's an aspect of our mind that knows that we've had an enlightened experience. So, I'm wondering, do we have a name or do we understand what aspect of our mind is that can distinguish between these, kind of a continuum of our consciousness?

[22:23]

because in Vasubandhu, it's broken up into levels, but I'm wondering maybe it's more of a continuum rather than different levels. Well, you know, every moment is a new experience. So our experience is continually changing. We enter practice because what causes us to, what motivates us to enter practice is our enlightened mind. So you can't, it's not, we don't really, the books all talk about enlightened experiences. And then we start looking for those experiences and we ignore the everyday ordinariness of our thinking and of our existence because we're looking for something better.

[23:37]

As soon as you stop looking for something better and simply accept what is, that's your enlightened mind. So, you know, If you want to experience enlightened mind, just sit zazen, because when we enter zazen, we enter the enlightenment of our mind. Enlightenment means producing light. It means letting go of naming things and simply letting everything come together. Okay, but there exists an aspect of our mind that understands what you just said. And I'm wondering what aspect of our consciousness is that understands what you just said?

[24:39]

Well, if you want to talk about it in terms of consciousness, there are the eight levels of consciousness. And then when the eight levels of consciousness are turned, they're no longer called consciousness, they're called wisdom. So the wisdom that recognizes enlightenment is the mirror wisdom. So when the mirror wisdom is prominent, then there is no, it's just like a mirror. It reflects everything as it is. So when you really see everything exactly as it is, without coverings and without predetermination, like I know, so as soon as you don't know anything, that's enlightenment.

[25:50]

So mirror wisdom is an aspect of consciousness? It's not your big mind and it's not small mind, it's like mirror wisdom? It's no longer an aspect of consciousness. Okay. It's beyond consciousness. And the way that they experience it is by dropping everything. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. Troy, can you unmute? I don't see him. I can. Can you see me now? I'm trying to. I'm trying to. Don't they? Oh, I see you. Hi. You're really small. That's better.

[26:55]

I see Jacob in the corner there, and seeing him made me think of this. The monk asked Joshu, because he'd been in the temple and had not received instruction yet. Joshu replied, have you had breakfast? The monk said yes, and Joshu replied, then wash your bowl. Yes. What would Joshu have said to a monk who had been washing his bowl for 40 years and never tasted so much as a single grain of rice? Ask the monk. Are you asking me? I just did. Go wash your bowl. There's no end to washing our bowl. We have to wash our bowl every day. Right, but at some point in time, it would be nice if you could take a bite. Well, first you take the bite, then you wash the bowl.

[28:04]

But don't you suppose it's possible to spend many, many years washing a bowl and never taste rice? Yes. And what then? You know, someone asked, is anybody Jewish here? What is the most wonderful thing? And he said, sitting on Mount Taiyu, Mount Tai, Mount, it's called this wonderful mountain, sitting on top of this wonderful mountain and eating rice. And then what this one said is, then washing my bowl. So whatever you know, you should wash it out of your mind, which is your bowl. Don't hang on to anything that you think you know.

[29:08]

That's bowl washing, good bowl washing. You can get awfully hungry though. Well, that's good. You look around for good food. Yeah. It's always, you know, it's always good to leave the table wanting a little more. Thank you. I'm glad you showed up. So am I. We have Julian Coleman. I'm sorry, I'm having to hold up my phone, so I'll just bow with one hand. What happened to the other one? I have to use it to hold up my phone.

[30:13]

Oh. Sorry. But my question is kind of another beginner level question. Explain the term big mind and small mind, and where the term came from. Well, small mind usually refers to egotistical mind, which is separation. Conditioned mind. It's important. Our small mind actually helps us to negotiate the world. So it's a discriminating mind, basically. Big mind is a non-discriminating mind. It's the mind of the, you know, it's our true self. But they're both our true self. So discriminating mind, there are two truths.

[31:17]

One is absolute truth, and the other is relative truth. Small mind deals with the conditions of relative truth. Big mind deals with the conditions of absolute truth. So we should not stray from our big mind when we're dealing with conditions of our small mind. Small mind is the expression of big mind in a small way. I don't know if that makes sense. That makes sense. Do you feel that there are times when, or maybe times when I guess one is dominant over the other, or do they just are constantly in play? They're constantly in play. But sometimes small mind, when our self-centeredness takes over,

[32:21]

then small mind is more dominant and covers big mind. So our practice is to minimize discriminating mind so that big mind becomes our parent. Big mind becomes our parent. Which it is. Big mind is our parent. And small mind is our individuality. When I first heard the term big mind, it made me think that maybe big mind is something shared. Yes, it's our shared mind. It's what makes us... Before division, before discrimination, we're all one. That's big mind. OK. Yes. OK.

[33:25]

OK. Thank you. Thank you. OK. OK, Joel. Joel. Oh, hi, Joel. Hi. Hi, Steve. Hi. Always great to see you. I wanted to ask you about last time. you were really emphasizing for me taking charge. And I think that was right on the money because it's something that I tend to be afraid to do, intimidated of doing. And so then that came up with Karen and you were talking about how she had to take charge in the library. And so that's whatever you can say to help me on that, because it is a problem for me, as you know.

[34:31]

You know, it's something that it's an issue. Yes. So there's the passive and the active. Yeah. Uh, uh, so your practice, is the balance between the active and the passive, and knowing when to be active and when to be passive. We say that Dogen talks about turning and being turned. So turning is the active principle, Being turned is the passive principle. And so if we only are passive, if we only are active, that's only one side. So if we are to cultivate knowing when to be active and when to be passive.

[35:38]

When to take the active part and when to take the passive part. So, if you're only passive, you just get pushed around. Yes. You're only active, you're pushing things around. Right. Yes. It's all the middle way. Right. I can't, that's as much as I can tell you. Right, well, I think it depends on circumstances. Yes, well, it partly depends on circumstances. Right. And partly depends on discernment. Yes. Mostly it depends on discernment. Yeah. Of what's appropriate in... What's appropriate for this situation. Right. For this moment. Yes. And then you may need to take the initiative more. Yes. So I do. So do it. Yeah. Sounds good.

[36:43]

Sounds good. Thank you. Well, we have Raghav up next. Raghav? Hi, Sojin. I'm trying to find you. You're probably on the other page. Oh, there you are. Oh, great. Nice to see you. So many questions. Limited time. I think maybe, I'm not sure if Leslie's, your response to Leslie's and Joel's question are the same to mine, but I'll just, what I've been thinking about is, for a long time, and you touched upon this last week in talking about the three marks of existence. And the last one being, um, uh, aimlessness and you, you call it differently.

[37:51]

Dignan Han in his book calls it aimlessness. Um, um, uh, and I think you use a different term when you talked in the lecture last week. Um, sorry. Um, so aimlessness and it's opposite of, I don't know if it's an opposite. Maybe I'll look at it as opposite of setting a direction. Yes. Yes. So, So what, so I'm starting with those two, like, you know, like what, like what should the direction be? Yes. I get the aimlessness part, but maybe I get it incorrectly.

[38:51]

No, that was right. It's like when I was talking to Leslie about basically what I said to Leslie, That's kind of aimlessness. It's not that you don't have a direction. You know, you have to decide what your direction is. It's very important to find out what your direction is. So, and sometimes we have to change our direction, you know, or change our, you know, changing our direction can mean, you know, deciding that we're not gonna do something anymore, which changes our karma. Because our karma, our actions create karma, which gives us a direction. So we may have various directions, but our true direction, you know what our true direction is? Death. That's our true inevitable direction, and we're always dealing with that all the time.

[39:58]

We have other directions which give us various possibilities. I'm a doctor or Indian chief or fireman or something. Those are our directions, but our real direction is birth and death on each moment. So that's our, How we deal with birth and death at each moment is our real direction, and that's called practice. So given that, what is our direction? How do we act out in the world knowing what is inevitable, knowing what our life is really about, being born and dying? And then all the rest of the stuff in between, my wife has a little sign out in the garden that says, life is, let's see, oh yeah, being born and dying, and in between we garden.

[41:17]

So how do we cultivate our garden? That's our practice. Each one of us has a garden, which is called our heart, mind, belly. How do we integrate all that with our surroundings? So that's what aimlessness means. It's like finding the right direction given the true circumstances of our life, not just the imagined circumstances. We have to take care of that, too. But that's the great matter. Tolkien calls it the great matter of birth and death. That's the important thing, how we live our life in the shadow of that. Or in the light of that.

[42:31]

We have to keep that, yeah. Then we know what our direction is. Sorry? That's when we know what our direction is. Right. Go ahead, sorry. Happy birthday, by the way. Oh, thank you. I couldn't have judged your birthday party. No, thank you. I was very happy that you joined earlier. Yes. Do you have a follow-up question that you're just dying to ask? Yeah. So, so I have the karma of my life, you know, which is whatever it is right now at this moment. Yeah. And, and for example, um, my karma is to, to find a job to, uh, [...] to get money for sustenance, for example.

[43:47]

Yes. Right. And, and that is my karma at this point. Uh, So I struggle with the imagined that, you know, maybe I should be doing something else. And for the moment, I've come to kind of maybe think about it as this is just my mind wandering back and forth. Yes, yes, I agree. Okay, thank you. That's all I want. Yeah, you know, whatever. Whatever job that you can find your practice within that job. Don't find particular. Practice is the most important part of your job. Right. Thank you. Karen? Karen may have problems with her video, but she's going to ask a question.

[44:48]

Thank you, thank you, I'm okay. Hi, Sojin. Where are you? Well, I don't know. On the other page. Oh, there you are. Yeah, Karen. Yes. I can tell by your voice. Hi, Sojin. Hi. You know, given that we're all, given that I'm going in one direction, which is death, I have a question about comfort. Yes. When I was young, I had envy of Christians because I thought they believed in God and got comfort from that. But as somebody raised Jewish, it was all about Nazi Germany and all the persecution and there was nothing loving or kind to me about it.

[45:52]

And then when I came to practice, I thought that Buddhism is very self-reliant. You know, we don't put our faith in a God and we say it's up to us to practice and have faith in our practice and faith in being able to realize through practice, but I find myself still yearning for something to lean on. What do you think of that? Yes, that's a very good question. God, Buddha, and so forth are names. their names. If we drop the names, we can realize our oneness.

[46:57]

So Buddhism is totally religious. If you want to talk about God, that's fine. We use various names to talk about what is the most important thing, or what is our source, or what is our What is it that we rely on? So Christians rely on God, so do Jews, you know. I always thought of Judaism as being a very strict religious practice. And God is there. But there are all kinds of strains, you know. What happened in the 20th century is that the Jews came to America and they found that they could have a real life. And so they became very materialistic.

[48:00]

They got seduced by the materialism of America, as so many people do. Christians are totally, you know, same thing. Fortunately, Buddhism hasn't been here very long. We haven't had the opportunity to become materialistic yet as Buddhists. So we have a totally religious practice, but it's not oriented toward God. It's like our practice is, you know, you can call it God. You can call it anything you want. But the thing is, Buddhism is self-reliant, but we're reliant on everything. There's nothing that we're not reliant on. It's called interdependence. So we call it interdependence. We don't call it God, we call it interdependence. But it's just a different way of speaking, that's all.

[49:04]

It's really, I don't say it's all the same. I don't say that. there's some sameness in it. There's some way of expression that you need to have an expression, a name to express what it is. Some people later call it God, some people call it Buddha. Buddha means interdependence. Everything is totally one piece. What more could you want? It's not like You know, Buddha nature is nice to you. Sometimes it's very not nice to you. But it's real. So what we're, as Buddhists, we try to understand what is real and not what is nice and what is bad and what is good and what is, and so forth. Those things are important, but the ultimate thing is what's the truth?

[50:06]

So we are looking for the truth rather than settling on some ideas. We should always invest thinking what's true and not depend on what's being said. Although what's being said helps us to think about what is true. So that's the thrust of Buddhism. What about prayer? If you want to depend on prayer, Zazen is the most ultimate prayer. Just communing with the absolute. We call it the absolute. We'll call it various things. Emptiness, absolute, whatever you want to call it. We just have various names that we use depending on the circumstances. and what we're trying to express. We use different names, but they're all about the same thing.

[51:10]

What about wanting something more powerful to... What could be more powerful? Yeah. You know, you have all the power you need. Mm-hmm. I guess I'll work on that. I just still feel this longing for something, you know? That's good. Take care of me, I guess, even though I know, but I'm, you know, maybe I exaggerate how independent I'm supposed to be, but. Yes, maybe so. You know, we have the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha. So, We lean on the Buddha, we lean on the Dharma, we lean on the Sangha. But those three are also just ourself. You are the Buddha, you are the Dharma, you are the Sangha.

[52:16]

When you practice, those are the three legs of the Colby. So, you know, we say have faith in yourself. But what is yourself? I'm tired of myself after 65 years. I know what you're saying, though. We don't have it. Thank you. I appreciate what you said. You're welcome. Take care. You can lean on me for a while. Thank you. Daniel, I don't have your last name. I can't hear you. Daniel. Oh yeah, raise your hand. Okay, I got you. Hi. Go ahead.

[53:16]

I'm asking about from Dogen. Preaching of a dream in a dream or preaching or the preaching of the dream state in the dream state. That's a dream within a dream. Should I say more? Sure, of course. Let me in. Well, two points which stand out to me in the passage are about, well, three points beyond yin and yang, which was preceded by saying

[54:27]

like delusions are boundless. And so at the same time, release is boundless. And then after that, something about ordinary weighing scale, like putting head on the head balance. Head on top of your own. Is that what you mean? I think, uh, I'm not sure what I mean. I think I'm saying like, uh, head on, uh, like putting the head on the head, like just, uh, I guess, I guess what I understand it with in terms of the, what you laid out in terms of, uh, ordinary weighing scale is like, uh, just, uh, like the mirror or something like each thing just says it is. And then that's balanced kind of. Yes, so what is your question?

[55:37]

How can you sum up your question? Well, I thought I... Well, in the end he says that... Okay, summing up the question, I'd say about... the dream state not necessarily as opposed to waking state but at the end he talks about dreams like the actual realized the practical realization of Buddhas or something is in the dream state, but he fought, he precedes that by like, as like, as opposed by some, by, uh, the constancy of the expounding of the Dharma in the waking state. So I'm wondering about like dream state, but also like dream state as explained in, uh, uh, preaching of a dream within a dream.

[56:48]

And as opposed to dream state, as opposed to, uh, waking state, you know, You have to be careful that you don't take everything literally. We are in a dream state. A dream state is where we all live. We create a dream. It's important to create a dream, even though a dream is basically not substantial. So the waking state is without a dream, no dreaming, which means we don't create, well, we do create

[57:57]

A dream within a dream, it's like maybe there's something outside of our world that's dreaming us. And we're dreaming our own dream. Our own dream means like, what is my path? So within the dream that we live, we're alive in this world, that's a dream. And within that dream is what we do when we're here. But maybe Dogen only understands what he understands.

[59:02]

It's very complicated. I would have to read that fascicle. So if you would like, I can read the fascicle because I don't wanna take things out of context. I think I would like that. So I'll read the classical and get caught up on it, and then we can have another conversation. Okay. Okay? Thank you. You're welcome. Okay, I'm last. Are you there? Yes. Somebody came up to me the other day and said, maybe the universe is telling you something.

[60:12]

And a ball of fire came out of me and I said, the universe is wrong. And it made me think about, you know, does the dog have Buddha nature? And one Zen master says, no. The other Zen master says... No, it's the same Zen master. Same Zen master. Yes. So am I barking up the wrong tree? Well, yes. No. Joshu, a monk asked Joshu, does the dog have the Buddha nature? He said no. And then another monk came and said, does the dog have Buddha nature? He said yes. So what is it? Yes or no? in order to, this is a dualistic question, so Dogen makes it a non-dualistic answer. No has to include yes, and yes has to include no, in order for it to be a non-dualistic understanding.

[61:20]

So is the universe wrong, or is it right? Or moo. Or moo. In Chinese, it's actually woo. Oh. OK, very good. Thank you. OK. Does anybody, so we have a little bit of extra time. Does anybody else want to ask a question? Raise your electronic hand or something. OK, Joe Buckner. So do I. In your talk on the three marks, you briefly brought up intuition. And I was thinking about that and just wondering if, how we can go about strengthening intuition or if you might have anything to say on that sort of thing. Yeah. Yes. Well, intuition means basically a dictionary meaning of intuition is,

[62:29]

directly touching without going through the process of thinking. So if we do have intuition, some people's intuition is very strong, some people's intuition is weak. Usually people who are intellectually oriented, highly intellectually oriented, don't depend so much on intuition, but that's not necessarily so. Because like most inventors or scientists usually have an intuition about things and then they investigate. So that's good intuition. Intuition, we say, oh, I know this, I know this, right? without having it being passed through our intellect. And then we have to verify it by investigation.

[63:35]

So those are two good processes. One is because you touch it, you know it, but you can't, but you have to be able to express it rationally, or at least understandably. as much as you can, and then you come up with your conclusions, right? So, your intuition, although it is directly touching, but it isn't necessarily. So, it's got that kind of reputation of like voodoo or something. So it's kind of necessary to work together. It's not like a thing on its own. It's working together with your reasoning. With your reasoning, yes. But reasoning often is dualistic.

[64:37]

Higher reasoning is non-dualistic, which is what Dogen's understanding is, the way he thinks. So he goes back and forth between dualistic and non-dualistic, and then it's very confusing what he's saying. So you have to get used to that. So I think Dogen gives us a good example of how to unleash our intuition, uncover our intuition, because we tend to especially nowadays, we tend to depend on our intellect too much. We're kind of top heavy, right? Yeah. And someone say, I have a hunch, you know, that there is some intuitive aspect to that, but it's not just a hunch. It's like, you don't really know something.

[65:41]

And is this like Dogen as a whole, or specific parts that you think that he is pointing towards, like how to use intuition? Yeah, I think that it's all Dogen. The whole thing, got it. Yeah, yeah. That's what I was wondering. Yeah, that's what I thought. Okay. Thank you. Charlie? Oh. Good evening, Sajan. I'm completely impressed and astonished that this afternoon I was listening to a lecture by Richard Feynman, and he almost word for word just said the same thing that you said, only his was a little bit shorter because he was lecturing and he wasn't talking to a specific person. What scientists do is the first thing they do is to guess about something.

[66:50]

And the second thing they do is to analyze the consequences of this guess. And the third thing they do is to test it with experiment. Yes. And that's how they find a new law of science. And that's very, very similar to what you've just said. And it's just incredible synchronicity. Intuition. Thank you for that. Well, thank you, sir. Puts me in a class above what I thought I was. You're right up there with Feynman, believe me. Yes, but sometimes I hear scientists talk and I think that's just plain old Buddhism. Yeah. So, where are we?

[67:52]

It sounds like we're turned off or something. BT is next. BT, can you unmute? Yes, this is Blake. That's Blake. Hi. Hey, Sojin Roshi. Hi. You're always hunting for people. Let me hunt for you. Let's see. Well, you're in the mix. There you are. Two About a month and a half ago, you were at San Francisco Zen Center speaking via Zoom, obviously. And you said of Kobinchino Roshi that he was kind of a mystical character. Yes. What did you and as maybe a little bit opposed to Suzuki Roshi, what did you mean by that? Well, I don't know about opposed, but yes. Right. Yeah.

[68:53]

Well, trying to think of how I would describe that. Colburn had a kind of, I would say, He had a channel, he had a channel, a mysterious channel that informed him. I mean, totally intuitive, totally intuitive. And I guess he had this totally intuitive mystical channel where he would come up with, you know, I don't know if I can describe it, a source.

[69:55]

that he was connected to. And he would say things that were unique. And it was based on compassion, basically. He's probably the most compassionate person outwardly. And people just loved him for that. He treated everybody like he could see into their psyches and make decisions based on some private, mysterious ability. He was connected to the source in a certain way that was very unique.

[70:58]

Just a quick add-on to that. Well, I mean, it's obvious. It's both and. He was predisposed towards that, and his practice cultivated that. Do you think that? Yeah. He was brought up at a heiji. the monastery in Japan to be an expert in various ceremonies. And when he came to America, he just dropped all that. And he just, he didn't have judgments about people. And he just accepted everybody's practice the way it was. And he didn't expect anything but people really followed him. He had some charisma that was remarkable.

[71:59]

I remember, we used to go to, we used to practice together at this place up north, I'm trying to remember the name of it, and we used to hold sashins there. And one time, it was a house that somebody lent us, Potter Valley, it was called. And Hugh hung up sometimes a calligraphy that he did. And one time, the calligraphy was just hanging by one thumbtack, and it was, you know, hanging down. And so I wanted to put it back up. And he said, no, no, don't put it back up. Leave it like that. So there was something, he wanted to be as loose as possible. That's why he had his own, you know, he didn't want to tell people what to do. He just wanted to help them do what they were doing and just be, you know, a kind of saint, actually.

[73:07]

But he had a lot of problems, especially with women. Thank you for sharing that experience with us and with me. Yeah, you're welcome. You're welcome. Randy, do you still have a question? I have to unmute. Thank you, Gary. Hi, Sojin. Yes, there's something I've been wanting to ask you, Sojin, and that is, I'm not sure if it was a Saturday talk or when it was, but you made the statement that, quote, this could all be dissolved. And I wanted to hear more about what you meant by that. Like, was it, is it something more than impermanence or is it a statement about how you feel about the Sangha's practice or what's going on here? You know, I remember that very well.

[74:13]

We have a practice, or at that time, you know, we had a practice that was going really well. You know, people were sitting with us, and there was no question about what we were doing, right? And then I realized that at any moment, it could all just disappear in a flash. Like anything else. Right, it's like impermanence. Don't take it for granted. Don't take it for granted. Exactly, yes. Thank you for the clarification. Don't take one significant mistake and the whole thing would collapse. Thank you. Ross Blum. Ross. Hi, Ross. Earlier this evening, you said, um, enlightenment brings us to practice.

[75:17]

Yes. Um, so when I think about the, uh, coming to practice, it was, I was, um, unaccepting of my life and the discontent that I had. And then within practice, I started accepting things that would felt a little better, a little more okay. And in examining the mind, it seems like enlightenment is just acceptance. Well, that acceptance, enlightenment is not just acceptance, but acceptance is a part of enlightenment, an aspect of enlightenment. Would, not accepting also be part of enlightenment? No.

[76:19]

So for instance, what just arose is, uh, there is an administration in our country that I have to accept is true. Is there? Is there. But there is a, A non-acceptance of that as a direction that I want to see this country and myself moving forward. So acceptance and non-acceptance are both there. At the same time. The opposite has to be included for enlightenment to be realized. I would say so. Uh huh. So, uh, I, I think I understand now that my discontent, which was not accepting my life and wanting something different.

[77:26]

Yes. Um, the opposite arose of, um, needing to accept that. And the vehicle was the vehicle of enlightenment. though I wasn't conscious of that in my delusion. Yes. Knowing our delusion is enlightenment. Yes. Accepting our delusion as a delusion is enlightenment. It's the enlightened mind that accepts it. But, you know, when we say is enlightenment, as if enlightenment is a thing. Yeah. Don't think of it as a thing. Well, I couldn't see that. When I entered practice, I only had the so-called delusion side and the pain side. But you also had the illusion. The enlightened mind is our basic nature.

[78:30]

The corrupt mind is our delusion. So when the corrupt mind is no longer operating, then enlightenment shines forth. So if I, uh, now in practice, if I get frustrated and caught and diluted, then I'm losing sight of the enlightened activity. Yeah. Yeah. So if I accept my delusion and my confusion and pain, enlightenment is revealed, and I can perhaps continue on for a few more years. Yeah, you can do something about it. Yeah, doing something about it is enlightenment. Yes. It's in the mind that wants to do something about it. Doing something about it, maybe just accepting.

[79:34]

You have to go out and do something. Those are the two things, two parts. One is acceptance and the other is doing. Yes. So the acceptance is the wisdom and the doing is the compassion, the activity. The activity, yes. Thank you. Brianna? Hi Sojourner Russia, can you see me? Yes, there are curtains, all kinds of curtains. So you may have just answered what I'm going to ask, but I'm still trying to digest what you just explained to Ross. So you were talking about acceptance and doing. And earlier you said to Raghav that when he was questioning, like, I have this job to provide for my family, but I think maybe I should do something else.

[80:41]

Your answer was, practice is the most important part of your job. So I want to ask about how intuition contributes to acceptance versus doing. And where my question comes from, Sojin, is I just So I've been in Colorado now for almost four months, and there was a big hiring freeze for nurses because of COVID. And then all at once, I got three job offers. And my intellectual rational mind sorted these three jobs out and picked one. And as it got closer and closer to my start date, I started to feel more and more hesitant. And the morning before I was supposed to start, I called one of the other job offers back and asked if it was still available and then called that job up and told them I had made a mistake and sorry, no thank you. The reason I made that phone call is because I felt in my body what I would call my intuition.

[81:45]

I had been so confused in my intellectual mind about what was the right choice, what was the right choice, but all along there was a feeling. But if I had just stayed with the job I accepted, wouldn't that just be practice? You also said earlier that we should be content. You didn't say should, you don't say should. But being content with what is. So what happens when you have choice and you're faced with acceptance of one and doing one and Do you see my question? I'm not formulating it, but I bet you hear it. If there's no chocolate, you take vanilla. But what if they're both there? Well, you have a double cone. I want a little chocolate and a little vanilla. But the first choice might have been OK.

[82:48]

In other words, this is my lot now. I have to do the best I can with it. Right. Right. But it's also okay to change your mind. Well, see, and that's what comes up for me. But then my question is, well, how often do I change my mind? How often do I run away from something that I thought looked good at this point? And suddenly it's not the shiny object anymore. You didn't run away from it. You just, I don't think you ran away from it because sometimes you make a decision and you, and at the last minute you realize that it's not the right decision. and then you make the other decision and it feels good, right? That's exactly how it felt. That's fine. Okay. It's okay to change your mind. So changing your mind is also part of acceptance. But yes, of course. I changed my mind and I feel okay about that. And if we think we want something better or different and that's part of the diluted mind, that's also still part of it. It's okay. because it's not necessarily a deluded mind.

[83:52]

It's just that, you know, let's not overthink it. Thank you. We do have a tendency to overthink it. I do, definitely. Thank you for reminding me. You're welcome. Philip Shepard? I think I did. Did that work? Oh, hi. Yes. I want to start off by saying how grateful I am that you make yourself available for Dokusan. It's just such a wonderful, wonderful part of you. Thank you very much. You're welcome. My question is, It has to do with a conversation that you and Ron Nestor had a few months ago, and it was about spontaneous enlightenment and nirvana.

[84:56]

And somewhere in there, you said, maybe you're just deluding yourself, or maybe it's delusional. And I have a real struggle with self-doubt and delusion. I'm trying to distinguish between the two. And I get caught up in it. and I'm not quite sure how to unravel it, how to stop the self-doubting and the delusional part of my thinking. Does that make any sense to you? That does, yes. I sit Sazen frequently and I find relief in that, but the self-doubt never really resolves itself. Self-doubt about what? Of myself, of my person, of what I'm facing at the time. It takes on various aspects. Yeah. It kind of diminishes your confidence.

[86:01]

Yes. How do I distinguish between self-doubt and delusion? Well, when you have self-doubt, go right into what you're doubtful about. Take a chance. Take the opportunity to go right into the doubt so that you can really see what it is you're doubtful about. Why am I doubtful about this? Okay, good. Why am I doubtful about myself? Why? What is it that's stopping me? Yes. I can visualize what that might be, but you know, you've been successful as a doctor, right?

[87:05]

Yes. And now you're retired, I think. Yes. And There's no reason for you to feel doubtful about yourself. I can tell you that. Just believe me. You know, you're getting older and you need some verification. Okay. Yes. But it's good advice. Thank you very much to go into the doubt and ask what I'm doubtful about. Yes. What am I doubtful? What's the matter? Right. Yes. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Last question. We have Baika. Hi Baika. Where are you? Hi soldier. I'm trying to find you. I'm over here.

[88:07]

Yeah, OK. Hi. Hi. Over the years, you said you've made many suggestions to me. And one, I never forgot, but it took me a long time to figure it out. Of course, I always disagreed. But you were right about everything, I have to say. So one thing was, you said one time, You're ambivalent. You're ambivalent. Yes, yes. So, um, I just wanted to say you were right again, um, but let's keep going. I see I'm ambivalent about, I still am ambivalent about so much in my life, but I, but I see it now. I see it really clearly and I just sort of keep navigating those waters and, um, and, uh, I'm still here. I'm glad that you're still here and I'm glad that you're showing up.

[89:11]

I'm glad you're still here too. I'll call you soon. Okay. Thank you very much for the evening. Okay.

[89:21]

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