I'm happy to be here with you. And I'd actually like to start by reading something, if that's okay. And then we'll go into, is Mary Mosina the first question? Yes. Okay. So I'm going to read you something from Genjo Koan, just to set a tone. When Dharma does not fill your whole body and mind, you think it is already sufficient. When Dharma fills your body and mind, you understand that something is missing. For example, when you sail out in a boat to the middle of the ocean, where no land is in sight, and view the four directions, the ocean looks circular and does not look any other way. But the ocean is neither round nor square.

[01:00]

Its features are infinite in variety. It is like a palace. It is like a jewel. It only looks circular as far as you can see at that time. All things are like this. Though there are many features in the dusty world and the world beyond conditions, you see and understand only what your eye of practice can reach. In order to learn the nature of the myriad things, you must know that although they look round or square, the other features of oceans and mountains are infinite in variety. Whole worlds are there. It is so not only around you, but also directly beneath your feet or in a drop of water. So thank you and please, Mary and others, bring me your question.

[02:15]

I've been thinking about time and change and as I understand it, all we really see is our ideas of things. Even if we have a direct experience of them, we only know that when we start labeling them. But my question is, Is there anything there? Or is it all language? Is it all in my mind? I don't think it's all in our mind, but I don't think we have any other way of perceiving it. So it doesn't matter really? I think it matters tremendously.

[03:28]

We are there and we are also features of our mind and other people's minds. But if it didn't matter, we wouldn't have the precepts. Well, the thing is, if, If I think I see it, and if I know that if I try to walk through a table, I'm gonna hurt myself. I know that. So, if it's not really there, it really doesn't matter in some sense, because I have to live my life as if it's there. I think that's right. That's what I mean when I say it doesn't matter. I'll just say that in this practice period, in this COVID time, Lori and I have been, in the mornings we've been reading the Lankavatara Sutra.

[04:34]

And it completely unpacks the very question that you're asking. And I find myself arguing it, arguing with that furiously, and of course asking, who is arguing? Yes, mind only. My friend Kokyo Henkel said, and then I'll stop. My friend Kokyo Henkel said, I was asking him about this, and he said that he, he doesn't, there's no way of knowing really, but that he chooses to be open to the possibility it really is mind only and because it just keeps an open mind. Though I think that we can't, we don't, it's not, it's counterintuitive. Well, I think that what I do is I talk to my friends and I ask them, what are you seeing?

[05:45]

and I check my perceptions with them, understanding that we could all be suffering from mass hypnosis. Well, nobody sees the same thing as anybody else ever, because you always see your own ideas of it, which is shorthand, but I think that's true. Yes, and I don't, it's probably a digression, but I have difficulty with this notion of direct experience. As if there is something that you can experience that is somehow beneath or beyond the functioning of mind. But that's another, that's another, that's a digression, I think. Thank you. This has been very helpful. Thank you. Oh, we got Raghav. Raghav? On mute. Thank you, Gary.

[06:50]

Hozan. Yes. What you just read, what does it mean and how is it relevant? I can tell you what it means to me. The pivot point of that for me is that When Dharma fills your body and mind, you realize that something is missing. What came to me this evening is Sojan is not here. What came to me also is that my understanding there's something missing. And that is also my understanding. And I'm grateful for being able to see that.

[07:55]

But to realize that everything we do and everything that we live is incomplete. And if I had to finish that sentence, when Dharma fills your body and mind you realize that something is missing and that's okay. And that is a really, for me, that's a very important teaching. And the rest of that section really circles around exactly what Mary was asking about. The fact that what we perceive is perceived through mind and that what we perceive is only a partial understanding of the multifaceted universe that we are part of and to feel at ease with that.

[09:06]

instead of being driven that I have to complete this, I have to understand this, I have to get this, but to really accept that it's incomplete and it's going to be that way and that will be how it is to the end and that that is complete. Just to say this is very, incredibly emotional for me. So that's what I hear as the heart of that expression. Thank you. Sarah, Lou, you're next. Don't forget to unmute. Thank you. I was feeling very physically unwell, and I wasn't sure how close I was to continue living and how close I was to continue dying towards death.

[10:28]

And I was listening to Sojin's talk on birth and death. Excuse me, Sarah, do you have something in the background running? Sounds like water. No. No. Go ahead. Go ahead. I hear you. OK. So I listened to one of the online talks, which included the Blue Cliff Record Case 55, and in which the abbot is asked, dead or alive, I would not tell you. somehow That worked as a catalyst. I'm not sure how because the next day while I was sitting The question I was obsessing over For so much I felt liberated it just it went away and the question itself about How close am I to continue living how close I am to

[11:39]

to death, it seemed ridiculous. It seemed funny and I started laughing. And then the next moment I started crying, but it was crying not for me, but crying tears of joy for the suffering of all beings. It was really an enlightened moment But since that time, I have, it has affected me, but I've also, it hasn't stuck with me. And so my question is, despite that moment of liberation and freedom and joy, why have, why, why have, Why do I get sucked back into dualism?

[12:41]

And actually a more pertinent question is there are times when I recognize the delusion and I choose the delusion. I choose to see life and death rather than living and dying as one and the same. And I opt to choose for the suffering thinking, holding on to, I don't want to die type thinking. That's wrestling with the very reality that when drama kills your body and mind, you know that something is missing. As you and I spoke earlier today, and when we spoke, the first part of the conversation, you were completely alive and completely clear.

[13:58]

And then you had a bout of illness. And we stayed through that. And to me, it was Sarah in the beginning, Sarah in the middle, and Sarah in the end. How you feel about it subjectively is something else. As I said earlier, There's this koan about the rhinoceros going through the window and everything goes through but the tail. Why can't the tail go through? I think that's because we're human and there's always something that's incomplete.

[15:02]

There's always something that's missing. Um, Sometimes that's fine. Sometimes it isn't. And sometimes we want to rail against the unity, against the universe, you know. And that's also human. Can I accept myself irrespective of which of these dimensions is coming up. And can we train ourselves to accept you that way? I don't have any better answer, you know. Yesterday, I went to visit Sojin at home.

[16:06]

We had a really wonderful and quite lucid conversation. And it was very warming and intimate. And then he had a lot of trouble walking into the house. And that was hard. It's hard to see. I'm sure it was hard for him. But the thing that I felt was, well just help him. Give him a hand, open the refrigerator. That without making anything of it, that was the most enlightened activity that I could manage at the moment. It had nothing to do with words. So, I just recall this, the words that Suzuki Roshi said to Sojin Roshi, just to be alive is enough.

[17:25]

And we get lots of messages, some of them are true and some of them are false. But what I have heard Sojourn Roshi say, and I think that Mary Mosin was there when he said them to Maile Scott, on the side of life, just turn towards life. And when it's time to die, turns towards death. but that may not be so clear. Really may not be so clear. And those of us who are here can only walk with you so far, but we will walk with you as far as that, as far as you can. Okay. Sorry.

[18:37]

Uh, Joe Buckner. Is Joe still with us? Yeah. Thanks Gary. What was that? Evening Joe. Evening. I find that I, I can't breathe into my lower abdomen. I have, um, a lot of tenseness across the upper abdomen, almost like a wall. And, um, When I try to follow the kind of standard Zazen instructions of breathing naturally or normally, it's really shallow and weak and the breath just kind of disappears and you end up drowsy. Then if I try to follow the instructions to focus on the exhalation, it can feel like I'm trying to force my way through the wall or just a little more, It's not relaxed.

[19:39]

It's a little more combative. And, uh, so I'm trying to, trying to find how to approach that. Yeah. Well, I have two suggestions. Um, the first is as you establish at the beginning of your periods of Zazen, as you establish your posture, take, take a deep breath in through your mouth. and then breathe out as long and as slowly as you can. And again, through your mouth, as if you're following a thread or a stream of air out, like I think of it as like a spider spinning that thread of silk. And go, make that as long as you can, and at the bottom of your breath, where you're you know, your abdomen are depleted, push a little more out.

[20:41]

And then I would say take five or six breaths like that. So you're really shifting gears from whatever activity you've been doing, from whatever breathing you've been doing, And once you've done that and you've established and you've sort of watched that thread of breath, which really puts your mind on your breath instead of on whatever busyness that it was that you were doing, then see if you can breathe naturally and make sure that your posture is upright but not hanging from your shoulders. The other thing I would suggest is once you have done that and you start breathing naturally, raise up the mind of awakening in a very simple way.

[21:51]

You can say to yourself, as if you were just dropping a stone into a pond, Just say, may I be awake that all beings may awaken. And you can breathe in on may I be awake and breathe out on may all, that all beings be awakened. Just say that, just drop that into your zazen and then proceed with your natural breathing. So you've established your breath. And then you've established a very deep intention of bodhichitta. So that's something you can do. Do you visualize the stone dropping kind of at the same time? I'm sorry? Do you visualize the stone dropping? No, I don't. I just say the words and I don't make a very big deal of it. You know, I just, but

[22:55]

But I'm thinking about it. I try to keep my mind on it while I'm saying this, not in a deeply concentrated way, but just in a light way. Darian, can you unmute? Thank you. Can you hear me? Yes. Okay, good. Speak a little, be a little closer to your... Hello, can you hear me now? Yes. Are you in Iran? Yes, I am. Wow, welcome from so far away. Yeah, on the other side of the world. Now the signal is good, yes. Okay. I guess like everybody, Sojourn is very much missed.

[23:57]

And I'm happy that you are filling in his very large shoes. It can't be an easy task, a big, big challenge for you. And I wish you the best. And in a way, I kind of feel we have something in common and that also started teaching, and it's all online right now, and I'm just sticking to the basics of Zazen here. And one thing that is on my mind about teaching is that there is this concept of what a teacher is, and how a teacher should behave, and how they should present themselves. And then there's reality of, let's say, being in traffic, and someone pulls in front of you, and you end up swearing at the guy or whatever, losing it for a minute.

[25:09]

And you reflect on that later, and you think, well, that wasn't very Zen teacher-like. So I sense that there is this gap between being a teacher and reality. And I'm wondering, how does one fill that gap, I guess? And if you have any thoughts on that, I would appreciate it. I don't really think there's a gap. I think this is, to me, this is the rhinoceros's tail. Teachers are human beings. My wife was talking to me about, we were talking about this koan yesterday, and she was talking to me, she said, she was complimenting my understanding, and then she's saying, but I don't understand how you can

[26:21]

just dump all the dishes in the dish drainer without clearing it out first. Um, you know, and I think that some of us have experienced Sojan being cranky. Uh, and This is just, I don't see it as a gap. I see it as being human. And I love and appreciate that because it suggests to me that everyone has work to do. And that's what I really love about this path, that the path is endless. and that there's always something that we can do.

[27:24]

And one thing that we can do is constantly ask ourselves, say when you get caught off in traffic like that and you swear or you give someone the finger, you know, whatever, You can, I would ask myself, am I being pushed around by my karma? Or is this, or am I actually living by vow? I don't think I'm living by vow. And to return is our practice. This is, we're sitting zazen, And we have this intention of sitting upright, breathing, opening our minds and being receptive. And then we're thinking about lunch or we're thinking about something that someone said to us.

[28:35]

And then we have the opportunity to notice that and return to our original intention. And to me, It's the act of returning that is the essence of Zazen. So the things that pull us away, the things that distract us or deflect us, these are the very things, the very tools and catalysts for our awakening. And I think as a teacher, the main thing is just to accept everybody who comes to you. And to accept them wholeheartedly and be kind to them even though they may try to put you in some box.

[29:43]

They may want you to be their father, or their friend, or their psychotherapist, and that's not who you are. And we have to figure out, each of us, who is teaching us to figure out, who am I? Who do I want to be in relation to this person? and then figure out a way to really accept and include them. I think that's the gift that Sojin has. That's the gift that Suzuki Roshi had. And just to be really normal and nothing special with them. I'm so glad just to think of you, halfway across the world is just inspiring. So thank you. I hope we'll be in further touch.

[30:45]

And as far as filling Sojan's shoes, forget about it. Actually, we wear about the same size shoes, but that's where the similarities end. Thank you. Thank you. We got Tom Painter. I'm a little thrown off because you're you and sojin, sojin. I was expecting sojin, but I'm happy to see you in front of me now on the screen. I want to say to you what I was going to say to Sojin, which is thank you for sacrificing so much of your life with your family, family life for all of us.

[31:47]

So thank you, Laurie, Sylvie, and Alex. Thank you. I don't think it's been that much of a sacrifice. But you need to ask Lori about that. It really, I will say, it took us time to figure out how to do this. And I have some real regrets. Yeah, part of my making that comment is seeing Sojin's shown so much emotion in his talk. the other night, and then I realized, yeah, this is no small thing. And today, or this evening, I've had to leave the family dinner to come here. I realized, oh, this is like the daily life of Sojin and Hoza, people knocking on the door and wanting things from you.

[32:49]

And I just have this new appreciation of you and Sojin for all these years of giving yourselves over like this. So I guess I don't have a question as much as just appreciation for that and an appreciation to your family for sharing you with us. I am deeply grateful to my family. And fortunately, we have really good relations. And, you know, by way of what I would say is, quite honestly, I would not have ordained to be what you did. I would not have ordained somebody who was just about to get married and was prospectively going to have a family. And in fact, I had a student like that who asked me to be ordained and I said, that's great, I think you would be a really good priest and I don't want to talk about this until your child is a year old.

[33:59]

And that's what we did, and it's worked out. But it's important, and I feel like I'm very lucky, and Lori and I and Sylvia and Alex are all lucky, because it's worked out fine, and I suppose they will talk it all out with their therapists. And finally, I'd like to say I really appreciate crankiness. I was at your house once, your stuffing envelopes or something, and you and Lori were bickering about something. I thought, this is really cool. He's not some Zen master that's above it all. He's just like me, getting cranky and working it out. So thank you very much. I guess you're welcome.

[35:02]

I keep trying to do better. Me too. Me three. Cheryl, Gordon. Cheryl, are you there? Here you go. Hi. Hi. Hi. Good evening. I have been reading, not always so, My Susan Kiboshe, a book you recommended a couple of years ago. And a chapter called Letter from Emptiness has intrigued me throughout the whole book. And my question is, how do you receive a letter from emptiness? You have to be always listening.

[36:15]

Your ears have to be open and receptive all the time. This should be, this should be the mode of zazen that we practice. Just that your senses are receptive. And then those letters come in. There was an afternoon a couple of weeks ago when I was sitting next to an open window and a breeze came up And all there was was the breeze. There was not me, there was not the room, there was not anything but the breeze. Do you think that was a letter from the world of emptiness? No question about it. But how do you receive a letter through a sense organ? That's the only way you can receive a letter.

[37:20]

That's what we were talking about at the beginning, the only way. that we can perceive things are through our eyes, our ears, our nose, our tongue, our sense of touch, and our mind, which is itself a sense organ. How else are you gonna get it? That's what my question was, yeah. There's no other way. I got the impression that receiving it through a sense organ was diminished somehow, that there was some bigger experience there. That's a problem, that's an idealization that somehow we buy into about Zen. There is nothing

[38:25]

And all of the texts say this, there is nothing that is not a function of mind. And that function of mind can be all of the workings of our mind, all of them are completely wondrous and mysterious. And when we really can, when we have a sense of that, it's just astonishing. And it just takes the simplest thing, a breeze coming through a window. What could be simpler than that? Or, you know, here in the morning, let's sit up here in the, I hear the crows and my heart opens.

[39:29]

Or I hear the whistles of the train down West Berkeley. All of those are letters from emptiness. And I just let them blow through like that breeze. I think this is our task, our task as humans is just to be receptive, not just to these sense perceptions, but actually to each person. And sometimes that soothes us, and sometimes it opens our hearts, and sometimes it can shatter us. but that receptivity is what we're doing. And just to say that's a particular, that's a mode of meditation.

[40:38]

There are other modes of meditation. There are modes of meditation that are much more concentrative, where you're focusing your mind. We're making it very clear and tight and diamond-like. And that's also a wonderful and important way of practicing. But our style is to open. Our style is to concentrate on everything. Thank you. Thank you, Cheryl. Hi, we're actually at the end of the list, mostly because three people have not shown up. But I have some people who have emailed me and I can call on them first and then I have a few in the chat box.

[41:40]

That's fine. I think we get through everybody. Okay, go ahead. So I'll call on Nancy Van House? Nancy, are you still there? Yeah, yeah, I'm here. Hi, Nancy. Hey, Alan. So this was a question that I formulated for Sojan, but actually, it's interesting to ask you this question also. It's a brief question. It may or may not be a brief answer. We have heard probably from Sojin that Suzuki Roshi would often say, the most important thing is, and various things would then follow that lead in. It was not always the same thing. So what I was thinking of asking Sojin, but it applies equally to you, but with I would assume a different answer. And that is all of your years of practice and all of the hundreds if not thousands of Zen students that you have met and known with varying degrees of intimacy.

[42:49]

So what is the most important thing? The most important thing for me is to attend to my vow that I will not abandon you. So that is the most important thing for you. At the moment. At the moment. If a student came to you and said, for them, And not necessarily for me personally, but for a student, what is the most important thing? what I'm pondering is kind of the distinction between what to do and what to do as a means and what to do as a developmental end.

[44:26]

And I would say the most important thing in terms of is to clarify How do I want to be in the world? And then you could say, well, the most important thing is Azen, or the most important thing is compassion, or there are various means, but how do I want to be in the world? And when I say for myself, I will not abandon you, that's how I want to be in the world. Somebody may have a different, different goals or different formulations, you know, that's what I would say. And I will say that's exactly what brought me to practice. What brought me to practice was really literally the question, what am I doing on this planet?

[45:28]

And practice for you was the answer. or it was the way to the answer. It was, it really was. And for some mysterious reason, I trusted it from the moment I walked in here, in Berkley Center. From that moment, I knew this was the right place. And I really questioned myself, like, okay, how do you know this? What makes you think this? But I've never been, I've never doubted that. I envy you that. As you know, I go back and forth. I can understand. And that completely makes sense to me. It's mysterious to me because I'm a person with a lot of doubt as well. But this has been certainly life-saving, life-focusing.

[46:34]

And that's just what works. It doesn't work necessarily for everybody. And I don't see it as a panacea. But if it works, and where it works, do it. And that goes for anything. Thank you. Thank you. Mike, excuse me, Mike, you had a question. You're muted, Mike. I. Didn't expect the chance to ask a question, so I didn't really come up with anything.

[47:38]

But I did appreciate we were talking about with the mind. And I kind of have thought of myself how the mind can be like a prison house. And we're shaking the bars, we're jumping up and down. Is that all it is? It's your choice. It's my choice. Your choice. Even if we are in prison, in some ways, it's still your choice. I mean, I've worked in prisons. It's true. And I've seen people who were free within those circumstances.

[48:44]

Free even within conditions of really difficult social control, you know, threat, violence. They found with practice and also with other religious with other forms of religious practice, they found freedom within that environment. And we set this up for ourselves. You know, what Sogen and Suzuki Roshi often talked about was to find your freedom within an environment of restriction. in the restriction of your body, within the restriction of your posture, say. But to have that, can you be free?

[49:47]

Can you be loose within that circumstance? Or you can feel yourself trapped and rattle the bars and that won't, that will bring, that will, it will bring suffering. Yes We're all caught within these we're we're imprisoned if you will within our bodies mm-hmm and we see Our bodies aging we see them declining In different ways and I don't know, I'm watching Sojin really carefully in this moment, you know, and the conversations that we had yesterday were very free.

[50:59]

And the limitations of his body were also palpable and, you know, one wouldn't, you can't look at them through rose-colored glasses, they were not, They were not easy for him to endure, but he literally took it step by step, careful step by careful step. And where two months ago, you might've seen him hurrying from one room to the other, That's not what was happening yesterday. And yet, he was still completely alive. That's freedom. My father is losing grasp of reality with his dementia and his mania.

[52:08]

I have a good friend of mine who's 70, is back in an alcoholic stupor a lot of the time. Yeah. It's really hard. It's really hard. I'm really sorry for them and sorry that you have to be there with that. And all you can do is just be as kind to them and compassionate as possible. Yeah. and realize that you may not be able to fix it. In fact, you can't. No. No, I can. But you can still love them. Yes. I talked to I've talked to both of them. My father does seem pretty good on the phone with me. But we know this. When I talked to my brothers, we know the full story is not sure what that phone call is. Um, People can get sick and die very fast.

[53:13]

They can. I've been pretty close to it myself several times. Yes. Well, thank you. Thank you, Mike. Take it easy. Thank you. Joel, you have a question? Hi. Thank you. Thank you. I also didn't really prepare a question because I didn't think I'd probably get a chance to ask one, but I just love that token quote that you started with. Um, I've always loved it and, um, it seems endless. Um, and, um, So as I was listening to everything and everybody and what you were saying, uh, right now where I'm at with that, what arises for me about that now is, uh, the idea of not knowing, um, that when the Darwin does not fill your mind that there's a state of knowing, which of course is false.

[54:41]

because we don't know. And so, in a state of don't knowing, there's always something missing, something we don't know. And that's an amazingly great state to be in. So that's where I'm at with it now. So if you have anything more about this endless statement of Dogon, please, thank you so much. What meets the mind of not knowing is the mind of inquiry. And the mind of inquiry is really watching, listening, being receptive, not projecting one's answers or concepts on this not knowing, but just watching.

[55:52]

Thank you. The state of that you were talking about the letters from emptiness. Yeah. So this is, you know, what, what Bernie Glassman talks about. And I really liked this a lot. Yeah. It's not knowing, uh, there's a three tenants, not knowing bearing witness, which is basically watching. And from that, an appropriate response arises. But at every point, the cycle continues and spirals. Yes. Yeah, I was thinking of that as well. I love that. There was a teacher in that lineage who gave a talk at Santa Barbara, and he had Like, well, there's story making and then the precision of seeing what is, and then it all goes into pure perception.

[56:58]

And then the cycle continues having been there to bearing witness and to appropriate action. So he sets up a nice thing between witness, seeing things precisely and being open to things precisely, to bearing witness, having experienced a little of not knowing. And there's some maybe more aliveness at that point. Maybe, I don't know, need to do something which then leads to the appropriate action. Yeah, I'm also very, it's been on my mind a lot.

[58:01]

Not only in terms of the whole, you know, mess out there that we're struggling with, But just as a general being in the universe, it just seems very, I think he's really onto something that's very powerful. Yeah, I think I will leave it there. Okay, fine. Thank you so much, Jozef. Thank you, Gil. Okay, excuse me. If you could raise your electronic hand, that would be helpful if you have a question. Thanks. Tika. Thank you. Good evening, Hozon. Hi, Tika. Congratulations on being the acting head priest, soon to be our new abbot.

[59:07]

Thanks a lot. In answering Cheryl's question you said that We don't perceive anything unless it's through our senses and so this brings me to an interesting area and I and I I think I need some clarity around it because you know, I've always I've got it on things like post-its and napkins and a quote from Kazan that says, you know, we must manifest according to circumstance without falling into thought. And I always thought that that was the golden rule of, you know, direct experience and non-thinking. So it sounded to me, though, that you were saying that non-thinking is an act of the mind. So I have some cloudiness here. I wonder if you could untweeze this for me. I do think that non-thinking is an act. Non-thinking doesn't mean not thinking.

[60:10]

Non-thinking to my mind, when Dogen says, he says, think not thinking. How do you think not thinking? Non-thinking, right? Yes. What I understand him to mean by non-thinking means simply allowing thoughts to arise. In other words, not necessarily, and I think this is what Sogen calls intuition. So not discursively or in an applied manner trying to figure something out, although there's a place for that. But to recognize, to my mind, when you are non-thinking, which means you are creating the same sense that is just listening without hearing or seeing, without looking.

[61:17]

Non-thinking is allowing thoughts to rise without actively applying mind to a kind of story making activity. I don't know if that makes sense. But what that means to me is, I just say, there is nothing that can arise in one's mind that does not come in one way or other from one's experience or karma. That's what it feels like, you know, because you say intuition and that word is really like a trigger word for me or it's a word that I... Intuition. Yes, trigger word. Trigger. So when I think intuition, I don't, you know, if my intuition is, I don't think I want to help somebody. I just do it. I don't think it, it just happens. But it happens for a reason. you know, this is, I was talking with somebody that happens, you know, you, you come to some situation and, you know, it's a situation of danger or hazard.

[62:29]

And some people will simply just respond. They don't have time to figure out a course of action. They'll just respond in the way that they feel is beneficial. And some people will not, you know, But there's some basis for that. There's some basis in your karma, in your thinking, in the way you were raised up, in your values, in your practice. This is where exactly what Dogen is saying. I just want to get it exactly right here. You see and understand only what your eye of practice can reach.

[63:32]

That's it. We are shaping ourselves by our practice, which means, you know, really looking at our experience, not necessarily in a conscious way, but allowing it to arise. So it doesn't come from the mysterious beyond, that's all. Right. Yes. No, I don't go for mysterious beyond, you know, I just go for, I go for Genjo Koan by Dogen. That's what I go for. Right. But we should also recognize it's important that probably the largest school of Buddhism in the world and in history is what we would call other power school where what we are given by the Buddhas is beyond our understanding. That's a real, that's really something to, we have to engage with, I think. I engage with it, you know. That's a tough one, thank you. It's a tough one. But, you know, it's like, how did you get here, Pika?

[64:36]

How did you get to sitting in front of this screen with your shaved head tonight? The Bart, I think. Yeah, right. Did you do it? Or did the Buddhas lead you here? That's other power. There's something, and all I can say about other power, it's like, I don't wanna, I don't, it's a mystery to me, which doesn't mean that it's beyond this world, but it is mysterious. And I love that mystery. I really do. Me too. I see two more and let's, let's end after these two. Okay. Okay. Dan, you're up. Hi Dan. So I've been trying to think about, it's kind of an odd question, baby. Um, what is the difference between your memories that you might have about someone or something and your preconceptions about that thing?

[65:46]

Give me an example, I'm not sure what you mean by that. So, like there's things that you know, like I know what a chair is, right? Or there are things that you take as facts, which they can't be, right? They're filtered through your senses. But I'm trying to think about what it means to not, to look at things without preconceptions, right? Yeah. But in a way, if you know about something, that's a preconception. If you have a memory of it, that's a preconception. Yeah, that's right. All I can say, and this is a story I've told before, uh, one time I took a mind expanding chemical, uh, and this was a very, very long time ago. Uh, And someone gave me an ice cream cone.

[66:53]

And I really didn't know what it was. Didn't make any sense. Then they had to show me how to eat it. And then I remembered what it was. So, you know, our conceptions are based on language. They're based on experience. And our understanding is there is no chair. There is no ice cream cone. There is no automobile. There are causes and conditions that come together to create something that provisionally we call that, that thing. And you know, we, we trust it enough and it, it can function generally. Uh, And yet this is what's meant by the fact that it has no fixed self.

[67:57]

It's not like a platonic model of a chair or an ice cream cone or whatever. It's causes and conditions coming together. And I would say Memory is pretty tricky. You know, especially the older you get, one wonders about the things that one thinks of as memory. Did that really happen? It's good to check it out with people. But still, we kind of rely on what we call conventional reality but it's not necessarily reliable. Right, but it's a useful enough shorthand for the unknowable thing.

[69:03]

And like in the Lankavatara Sutra, they're always talking about rabbits with horns and things that you can easily imagine that don't necessarily exist. Ta-da. Oh, shit. All right. If we were smart, we'd have been there by now. Give Linda the last word. Take care, bud. Thank you. Linda H., and then we'll close out with Ben doing the four vows. Okay, thanks. and Don and everybody. I'm going back to Cheryl's letters from emptiness. You said to her that there's no way to get a letter from emptiness except through the senses.

[70:10]

Can you speak up a little? Yeah. You said to Cheryl there's no way to get a letter from emptiness except through the senses. six sense organs, you named them. So should we delete that line in the Heart Sutra that says, no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind? Is that one irrelevant? No, that, you know, every teaching is medicine. That is a teaching You know, the whole Heart Sutra is kind of a crash course on deconstructing our fixed ideas about the dharma. And when it says, no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, to me what it's saying is, the function of sight, the function of sound,

[71:15]

is the conjunction of the eye organ, the object of it, and the eye consciousness. The eye itself doesn't see. The eye itself does not provide sight. It is the conjunction of these with mind, which is the necessary object. If your ocular nerve were cut, you'd still have an eye and there'd still be an eye object, but you wouldn't see. That's so very, very interesting and theoretical. I mean, it's not theoretical. I'll just say, instead of trying to mount up some stairway here with you, that when Cheryl spoke of her experience with the bees Also, Sarah thought, I think I heard it right, I was sort of doing more than one thing at that time about an experience that she had.

[72:23]

And you said you can only get those through the senses. I kind of understood that and I thought of the famous pebble, you know, hitting the bridge or whatever it was. But at the same time, I just wasn't satisfied with you saying that You can only get it through the senses. Because I was trying to remember some moment of the breeze, like Cheryl's, or something that Cheryl also described. And at that moment, it wasn't through the senses. It was through the nothing, nothing at all. There's a letter from emptiness. I mean, no, erase that. It wasn't through anything. I just don't agree. Well then. I mean, I just, I don't think, you know, I, I would say that perception is beyond my understanding, but it's not beyond perception.

[73:31]

It's not beyond it's if, if my mind wasn't there, if Cheryl wasn't there sitting in front of that women window, we wouldn't be talking about this. I don't have a problem with that. No, no, I like the census. It's hard to hear you. Oh, sorry. Yeah, I would never be putting down the census. It's just some experience that I'm referring to. Maybe I'm just thinking of talking about the census as a subject and object thing, whereas that experience is not a subject and object thing. No, and I would agree there. There are absolutely places where we are beyond subject and object. Let me put it another way.

[74:33]

If you and I approach each other, and embrace, we're not easily in that moment going to be able to discern where the physical limits of Linda and Alan are. In that moment, there's something that transcends subject and object. I just don't think, for me, it doesn't transcend mind. Just to say this is something that I really wrestle with. I'm really trying to understand. I'm trying to experience because there's a lot of talk in Zen, and it's come up here too, about direct experience.

[75:38]

as if there's something that is beyond perception and beyond mind. And I, so far I don't buy it. And that may be a shortcoming on my practice. No, no, this is to be completed. This is not a short thing. I wish it was, I wish it would be true and solve it. Anyway. Um, I thank you all for your questions and for being here. It's wonderful to make contact with you this way. And I hope that Sojourn will show you back in a week or two. And it's, you know, it's a hard time. There's just to say, When Dharma fills our body and mind, it's not just that something's missing, but we recognize that things go away, people we love go away.

[76:56]

All of this is a reality of our lives. And we are so lucky. We're so lucky to be able to do it together. We're so lucky to have each other. and not to be isolated and alone with this experience.

[77:22]

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