Public Dokusan 11

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a three o'clock i'm happy to be here with you and i'd actually like to start by by reading something that that's okay and top and then we're going to smear machine at the first question
yes okay somebody read you something
from ginger call on ah just to set a tone
when dharma does not fill your whole body and mind you think it is already sufficient
when dharma fills your body and mind you understand that something is missing
for example when you sail out in a boat to the middle of the ocean where no land is in sight and view the four directions the ocean looks circular does not look any other way
but the ocean is neither round nor square it's features are infinite in variety
it is like a palace it is like a jewel
it only looks circular as far as you can see at that time
all things are like this
go there are many features in the dusty world and the world beyond conditions you see and understand only what your i have practice can reach
in order to learn the nature of the myriad things you must know that although they looked round or square
the other features of oceans and mountains are infinite in variety
whole worlds are there
it is so not only around you but also directly beneath your feet
or in a drop of water

so thank you and arm
please sir
mary and others bring your question

hassan
i've been thinking about time
and change
and
i as i understand it all we really see is our ideas of things
even if we have a direct experience of them we only know that when we start labeling
but my question is
is there anything there
where is it on
language at all in my mind

i don't think it's all in her mind but i don't think we have any other way of perceiving it
really
i think it matters tremendously
we are there
and we are also
features of our mind and other people's minds but if it didn't matter we wouldn't have the precepts
well
the thing is if the f
if i think i see it and if i know verified you know try to walk through a table up in a hurt myself right i do i know that so
if it's not really there it really doesn't matter in some sense because i have to live my life as if it's there i think that's right
that's what i mean when i say it doesn't map yeah i i'll just say that in this pract in this practice period it is covert time
ah lori and i have been in the mornings we've been reading the luck of the torah sutra
and it completely
on packs the very question that you're asking and i find myself arguing it arguing with that furiously
and of course asking who is arguably
yes mind only is stop
my friend a co-ceo handball bolster and then i'll start my friend kochi orlando said flowers to asking him about this and he said that time
he he doesn't there's no way of knowing rarely but that he chooses to be open to the possibility of really is mind only and a because it just
u k keeps an open mind
no i think the
we can't wait on it's not it's it's counterintuitive
well i i think that what i do is i talked to my friends and i asked him what are you see
and
ha i check my perceptions with them understanding that we could all be suffering from mass hypnosis while nobody sees nobody seems the same thing as anybody else ever because you only see your own ideas of it
which is shorthand but i think that's true yes an ip
i don't
there's probably a digression but ah i have difficulty with this notion of direct experience
as if there is something that you can experience that is somehow beneath or beyond the functioning of mind
yeah but that's another that's another that's a digression i think i've i eaten
sapa thank you this will bring up thank you
oh we got raghav raja on you
and die
hassan
yes i'm
would you just read
what does it mean and on how is it relevant
i can tell you what it means to meet
hum
the pivot point of that for me is that
when dharma fills your body and mind you realize that something is missing
what came to me this evening is
surgeon is not here
what came to me also is that
my understanding
there's something missing
and
that is also my understanding and i'm grateful for being able to see that
but to realize that everything we do and everything that we live
is incomplete
and if i had to finish that sentence
when donna fills your body and mind you realize that something is missing
and that's ok
ah
and that is a really for me that's very important teaching
ha
and the rest of that section really circles around exactly what mary was asking about v
the fact that what we
perceive is perceives remind
and that what we perceive is only a partial understanding
of
the multifaceted universe that we are part of
and to feel at ease with that
instead of being driven that we i have to complete this i have to understand this i have to get this but the to really accept that
it's incomplete and it's going to be that way
and that will be how it is to the end and that that is complete ah
just to say this history incredibly emotional for me
so that that's what i hear as the heart of that expression

farah who your next
don't forget to unmute
okay
and
i was feeling very physically unwell and i wasn't sure how close i was to continue living and have wholesale was to continue dying towards death and i was listening to surgeons top
on birth and death here's me sorry if you have something in the background running
sounds like water not know
for behind either you are okay
so i listened or to one of the online not soldiers top of which included
he added the cliff record tastes fifty five
and in which the avid is asked either dead or alive i would not tell you
and somehow
that worked as a catalyst and not sure how because next day while i was sitting
the question i was obsessing over
for so much i felt liberated it just it went away and the question itself about
how close am i to continue living how close i am to to death it seemed ridiculous it seemed funny and i started laughing and in the next moment i started crying but it was flying not for
at me but crying tears of joy for the suffering of all the eggs
it was really earn
an enlightened but
but since that time i have it has affected me but i've also it hasn't stuck with me and so my question is despite that moment of liberation and freedom and joy
why have why
why hat
why do i get sucked back into dualism
and actually have more
pertinent question is there are times that i recognize
the delusion and i choose the delusion i choose to see life and death rather than
living and dot living and dying as one of the same
and i opt to choose for the suffering thinking
ah holding on to i don't want to die type thinking

that's wrestling with
in reality that
those with drama kills your body and mind you know that something is missing
as we you and i spoke earlier today
and when ice when we spoke
the first part of the conversation you are completely alive
and completely clear
and then you you had a bout of illness
and we stayed through that
and to me
it was sarah in the beginning sarah in the middle and sarah the end
are you feel about it subjectively something else
as i said earlier it is go on about the rhinoceros going through the window
and everything goes through but the tail
why keep tiago go through
i think that's because we're human
use always
something that's incomplete is always something that's missing
i'm sometimes that's fine
sometimes it isn't and sometimes we want to rail
against the unity against the universe you know
and that's also human

can i accept myself
irrespective of which of these dimensions is coming up
and can we train ourselves to accept you that way
i don't have any better answer you know i'm
yesterday
i went to visit sojourn
and home
we had a really wonderful and great lucid conversation and it was very warming an intimate
and then he had a lot of trouble
walking into the house
and
that was hard
toward the see i'm sure it was hard for him
but the thing that i felt was would just help him give him a hand open the refrigerator
ah that without making anything of it
that was
the most enlightened activity that i could manage at the moment
had nothing to do with words
so

i remember i just recall this is the words it's on
words it's urgent that suzuki roshi said to your mercy
just to be alive is enough
and
you know we get lots of messages some of them are true and some of them are false
but
what i have heard sojourn she say
ah
and i think that mary machine was there when he said them to merely scott
on the side of life just turned towards life
and when it's time
to die turned towards death
but that may not be so clear
really may not be so clear
and
those of us who are here can only walk with you so far but we will walk with you as far as that as far as begin
okay

rory your buckner
he's just don't with us no thanks go
hassan go in it
i find that i i can't breathe into my lower abdomen
a avant a lotta tenseness across the upper abdomen almost like a wall and on
when i try to follow the kind of standards awesome instructions of breathing naturally are normally it's dumb
really shallow and week in the breadth just kind of disappears and you end up drowsy on
then if i try to follow the instructions to focus on the exhalation
it can feel like i'm trying to force my way through the wall or or just a little more on
it's not relaxed it's a little more combative and dots on trying to
trying to find how to approach that them
why have two suggestions on the first is
as you established at the beginning of your periods of zazen as you establish your posture
keiko take a deep breath in through your mouth
and then breathe out as long as slowly as you can
and through again through your mouth as if you're following a thread or a stream their out like i think of it is like as a spider spinning that thread of silk
and go make that as long as you can at the bottom of your breath
where you're where barrier you know your abdomen are depleted push a little more out
and then i would say take five or six rats like that
so you're really shifting gears
from whatever activity you been doing from whatever breathing you been doing
and once you once you've done that you establish new set of watch that thread of breath which really puts your mind on your breadth instead of on whatever busy-ness that you that was a you're doing then see if you can breathe naturally and
the make sure that your posture is upright but not
hanging from your shoulders
the other thing i would suggest as once you have done that and you start breathing naturally
res
raise up the mind of awakening in a very simple way
you can say to yourself as if you were just dropping a stone into a pond
to say
may i be awake
that all beams may awaken
and you can breathe in on may i be awake and breathe out on me all that all beings be awakened
just say that just drop that
into your zazen
then proceed with your natural breathing so you've established your bread and then you've established a very deep
our intention a bodhicitta that's something you can do
is that a bit by the stone dropping kind of at the same time i'm sorry you visualize the stone dropping dollar i i guess
i just say the words and i don't make a very big deal of it you know i just but but i'm thinking rather i'd try to keep my mind on it ah well i'm bomb saying this ah not in a deeply concentrated away with just in a lightweight
that's it works

barry m
have your own merit thank you
ah
can hear me yes you're like a good speaker gonna be a little closer to your elo can you hear me now this are you in your gran
welcome from some far away
yeah on the other side of the world are now the signals good yes okay
i guess like everybody a sojourn is very much missed and
i'm happy that you're a filling in is very large shoes
ah can't be an easy task and a big big challenge for you and i wish you the best
ha
and down in a way i kind of feel lamar
we have something in common in the that also started teaching and it's all online right now and i'm just sticking to the basics of zazen here
and
one thing that the is on my mind about teaching is that
there is ah what this concept of what a teacher is and how a teacher should behave and how they should present themselves
and then those reality of let's say being in traffic and someone pulls in front of you and you wind up for swearing at the guy or whatever losing it for a minute and used to reflect on that later and you think well that wasn't very as
zen teacher like ah i'm so i'd sense that there's this gap between ah being a teacher and reality
and
i'm wondering ah
how does one fill that gap i guess home and that you have any his thoughts on that i would appreciate it
i don't know i think there's a gap
i think this is to me this is the rhinoceros is dale
i'm
teachers are human beings
ha if my wife was talking to me that the document is corn yesterday and she was talking to me yeah he said no she was complimenting my understanding and then g seen but i don't understand how
you can just dump all the dishes in the dish drainer without clearing it out first
ha
you know and
i think that some of us
have experienced
sojourn being cranky
ah
and
this is just i don't see it as a gap i see it as being human and i love and appreciate that
because
it suggests to me that every one
has work to do
and that's what i really love about this have said the that the path is endless
and
but there's always something that we can do
come
and
one thing that we can do is constantly ask ourselves
say when you get cut off in traffic like that and you swear you give someone the finger
no whatever
ha you can i would ask myself am i being pushed around by my karma or is this
my it or am i actually living by vow i want to come with him by wow
and
to return
is our practice
mrs
who's sitting zazen
and we have his intention of sitting upright breathing opening our minds being receptive
and and we're thinking about lunch always thinking about something that someone said to us and ah
then we have the opportunity to notice that and return
to our original intention
and to me it's the act of returning that is the essence of thousand
so the
the things that pull us away
the things that distract us or
you know deflect us these are the very things
very
tools and catalysts for are awakening
and
i think is it as a teacher
the main thing is just to accept everybody who comes to you
and to accept them are wildly
and be kind to them even though they may try to put you in some box
they may want you to be their father or their friend or their psychotherapist
then that's not who you are
and we have to figure out each of us who was teaching us to for grad who am i would i want to be in relation to this person then figure out a way to really accept and include the mighty tetzlaff that's the gift surgeon has that's the gifted zhu que version ha
add and just ah to be really
normal and nothing special with them

i'm so glad i'm here to think of you
halfway across the world is is just inspiring
the thank you buy will be in for your types in as far as filling sojourn choose forget about it
actually we were about the same size shoes but that's about that's where the similarities in
thank you
you we got com painter

hey
hose on sunset i come i said well thrown off because you're you and such as sojourn i was expecting soldier by happy to see you in front of me now on the screen
and on how to say to you what i was gonna say this putin which has thank you for sacrificing so much your life up with your founding family life for
all of us
so thank you a worry so so he and alex
thank you
i don't think it's been that much of a sacrifice
but you need to ask worry about that com
it really i will say it took us time to figure out
how to do this
and i have
i have some real regrets
now part of my making a comment has seen sojourns shown so much emotion let's talk
the other night and i yeah this is no small thing and today for the see mean i had a know leave the family dinner to come here rise this is like the daily life of sojourn in osan people knocking the door and buy things from you and i said this some
new appreciation of of you and surgeon for all these years of giving ourselves over like this and i'm so i guess you don't have a question as much as just appreciation for that an appreciation to your family for sharing you with us i am deeply grateful to my family and fortunately we
i have really good relations and you know by way of but i would say he is
quite honestly
i would not have ordained me
the pretty good
i would not have ordained somebody who was just about to get married and was prospectively going to have a family
and in fact i had a student like that
who asked me to be ordained and i said
that's great i think he would be a really good priest and i don't want to talk about this until your child as a year old
and that's what we did and it it's worked out ah but
it's
it's important and i feel like
i'm very lucky
and laurie nine soviet alex are all lucky cause it's it's worked out fine and
i suppose
they will talk at all out with their therapists in here
and finally i like to say i really appreciate com crankiness wasn't your house wants to have stuffing envelopes result gain and you a hurry are bickering about something about this is really cool that is some zen master list above it all he's just he's just like me and cranky and
working it out so thank you very much
i guess you're welcome
you know and i will i keep trying to do better
me too
may three
sheriff gordon

are you there
go i i should've done by believe in living ah
i have been reading not always so our voices of people share a book you recommended a of years about ah and ah a chapter called ah letter from emptiness ah has are intrigued me throughout the whole book
book and my question is how did you receive a letter from emptiness

you have to be always listening
your ears have to be open and receptive all the time this should be
this should be a mode
but of zazen that we practice ah just that your senses
are receptive
and then those with in those letters come in
ah there was an afternoon a couple of ah weeks ago where i was sitting next to an open window and a breeze came up
and all there was was the breeze
not me there was not the room there was not anything but the breeze
he think that was a letter from the world of emptiness no question about it
but how do you receive a letter to a sense organ
that's the only way you can receive a letter
hmm that's that's what we were talking about at the beginning with the only way that we can perceive things are true
our eyes or ears or nose her tongue our sense of touch
and our mind which is itself a sense organ how else are you gonna get it
that's what my question was not is is no other way
i got the impression that receiving a to ah a sense organ was the manage somehow that there was some bigger experience there
that's a problem that's an idealization that somehow we buy into about zinn
there there is nothing and all of the texas there's nothing that is not a function of mind
and
that function of mind can be
all of the workings of our mind all of them are completely
wondrous and mysterious
and when we really can
when we have a sense of that it's it's it's just astonishing but it just takes the simplest thing a breeze coming through a window
what could be simpler that or know you're in the morning ah
it's it up here in the
i hear the crows
in my my heart opens
or i hear the whistles of the train down gris berkeley
all of those are letters from emptiness
they just let them go through like that greece

maybe pieces are transferred to ask
as humans is just to be receptive not just as the sense perception but actually do to each person
and sometimes that suits us
and sometimes it
opens our hearts and sometimes it can shatter us
but that receptivity is
what we're doing
and just to say that's a particular that's that's a mode of meditation your other modes of dedication emotive medication that are a much more concentrated
we're focusing your mind we're making it very clear and tight and diamond like and that's also a wonderful and important
way of practicing
but our style is
to open our stylists to concentrate on everything

thank you
the jail
i am were actually at the end of the list are mostly because three people have not shown up but i'm i have
some people who have emailed me and i can call on them first and then i have a few and the chatbox if an island we can i think we get through everybody uk go ahead to i'll call on no maxie van house
nancy are a bit still there yeah yeah i'm here i didn't
alan
so this was a question that i formulated for surgeon but actually it's interesting to ask you this question also oh
it's a brief question it may or may not be a brief answer so we have heard probably from surgeon that suzuki roshi would often say the most important thing is and various things would then follow that laden it was not always the same thing
how what i was thinking of asking surgeon but the applies equally to you but with i would assume a different answer and that is all of your years of practice and all of the hundreds if not thousands of zen students that you have met and know
own with varying degrees of intimacy so what is the most important thing

for most important thing for me is to
attend to my wow
that i will not abandon you

so that is the most important thing for you where you moment at the moment
if a student came to you and said for them
and not necessarily for me personally but for a student what is the most important thing

when i'm bot during his
kind of the distinction between what to do
and
what to do as a means and what to do as a as a developmental end and i would say the most important thing in terms of is is to clarify
how do i wanna be in the world
and then
you could say what most important thing is awesome when the most important thing is compassion or the there any kind of their various means but how do i want to be in the world
and when i say for myself i will not abandon you that's why i won't be in the world somebody may have a different
different goals were different formulations you know
that's what i would say
and i will say that's exactly what brought me to practice
what brought me to practice was really literally the question
what am i doing on this planet
and practice for you was the answer or it was the way to the answer it was it really was ah
and for some mysterious reason i trusted it
from the moment i walked in here berkeley center
in that moment i knew
this is the right place and i really questioned myself say okay how do you notice
what makes you think this but i've never been
i've never doubted that
i envy you to have as you know i go back and forth you know i can understand and that's completely makes sense to me i had it's mysterious to me
because i'm a person with a lot of doubt as well
but this has been ah
suddenly life-saving life focusing
and that's just what works it doesn't work necessarily for everybody and i don't see it as a panacea
but if it works and where it works to it and that goes for anything

thank you nicki
i'm my fears me mike you a question
your muted my

all hassan
pts i didn't expect the chance to ask the questions so i didn't really probably thing
but
i did appreciate we were talking about with the mind
and
i kind of
the firelight of myself how the mind is like a can be like a prison house
and were shaken the bars were jumping up and down

is that all it is
it's your choice
my choice choice for him
even if we are in imprisoned in some ways it's still your choice and
i've worked in prisons
it's true and i've seen people who were free we didn't know circumstances
free even within conditions of
really
difficult social control and you know quantal threat violence ah they found with practice and also with with other religious with other forms of religious practice ah
they found freedom
within that environment
and we set this up for ourselves you know what
certain and insinuation often talked about was ah
to find your freedom
within an environment of restriction
in the restriction of your body within the restriction of your posture say
but to have that can you be free can you be loose within that circumstance
ha ha
or you can feel yourself trapped and rattle the bars in that won't
that will bring that will
difference it will bring suffered
at yes

we're all caught within these were were imprisoned if you will within our bodies
and we see
our bodies aging we see them declining
ah in different ways and

i know i'm watching sojourn really carefully
in this in this moment you know and
the conversations that we had yesterday were very free
in the limitations of his body were also palpable and
you know one wouldn't
good you can't look at them to rose colored glasses it were not
they were not
easy for
for him to endure
but
he literally took a step by step
careful step by careful step
and where
two months ago you might have seen i'm hurrying from one room to the other
that's not always happening yesterday
and yet
he was still completely alive
that's freedom

my father's losing grasp of reality with his dementia and his mania yeah i'm a good for a mind and seventy his back and an alcoholic stupor a lot of the time
yeah it's really hard it's really guard i'm really sorry for for them and sorry that you have to ah be there with that
and all you can do is just as kind to them and compassion is possible
no and realize that you may not be able to fix it in fact you can
no
well i can but you can still love them yes i thought to i've talked to both of them by thy father does seem pretty good on the phone with me but we noticed when i talked to my brothers we know the full story is not her
what that phone call is
hum
people can get sick and die very fast
again
i've been pretty close to it myself several times
yes
yeah i'll thank you thank you might take to easy thank you
jaw you have a question

i thank you thank you goes on
i also didn't really prepare question the as i didn't think i'd probably get a chance to ask one but
token quote that you started when to on i've always loved and and on it seems endless on and on
so as i was listening to everything and everybody and what you were saying or right now where i'm at with that what arises for me about that now is ah the idea of not knowing
that when the arm does not show your mind
that there's a state of knowing which of course is false
because we don't know
and so
in a state of don't knowing there's always something missing something we don't know enter amazingly great state to begin so that's where ahmad at with it now so if you have anything more
about this endless statement of dogan
please thank you so much
what meets the mind of not knowing
it's the mind of inquiry
and the mind of inquiry
is really
watching
listening being receptive
palm
i'm not projecting ones answers or concepts on is not knowing but
he's watching
well thank you the state out that you're talking about letters from antonyms him so this is you know what what bernie glassman talks about and i really like this a lot yeah was not knowing others have three tenants not knowing bearing witness which is basically watching
yeah and from that an appropriate response arises
and
then what at every point to cycle
continues and spirals yes yeah i was thinking of that as well i love her and those a teacher or rooney and she gave its phone at santa barbara and he had
like a well as story making and then the precision of see what is and then it all goes into pure perception
and then
the cycle continues having been there
on to bearing witness and
two appropriate action sir he sets up a nice
thing between
yeah witness and you know seeing things precisely and being open to things precisely
two bearing witness
i'm having experienced the little of not known
burns and there's some maybe more aliveness that to be more on
maybe i don't need to do something which then leads to the appropriate action
oh yeah i'm also very in
it's been on my mind along on
not only in terms of the whole
the you know miss out there that were struggling loans but just as a general on
what universe looks just seems very make he's real he's onto something that's on
very powerful
yeah i think i will leave it there okay fine thank you so much as a and you go
okay i'm scuse me am
if you could raise your electronic had that would be helpful if you have a question
what
kicker
thank you
ah good evening was on titan to congratulations on being the acting head priest soon to be i knew abbott no thanks a lot
i am
this an answering charles question you said that
we don't perceive anything and lessons through our senses and so this brings me to an interesting area and i and i i think i need some clarity around and because you know i've always i've i've got it on things like post-its and napkins a quote from taser that says you know we must manifest occur
boarding the circumstance without falling into thought and i always thought that that was the golden rule of be no direct experience and and non thinking so it sounded to me though that that you are saying that non thinking is an act of the mind so i have some clouding
here i wonder i wonder if you could and tweeze this for me well i do think that non thinking is an act not thinking doesn't mean not thinking
non thinking to my mind when dogan says
the has think not thinking how do you think not thinking non thinking right yes what i understand him to mean by non thinking beans simply allowing thought to arise
in other words not necessarily and i think this is what sojourn calls intuition
so not discursive lee or in applied manner
trying to
figure something out although there's a place for that
but to recognize
from to my mind when you are non thinking which means you are creating a reset the same sense that is just listening
without hearing or seeing without looking
non thinking is allowing thoughts to rise without
actively a buying mind to kind of story making activity
i i'd if that makes sense but what would that means to me is i just say there is nothing that can arise in one's mind that does not come in one way or other from once experience or karma that's what
it feels like you know because you say intuition and that word is really like a trigger word for me or that you weren't going to gossip intuition yes trigger word nigger
so when i when i think intuition i don't know if my intuition is i don't think i want to help somebody i just do it i don't think it it just happens
but it happens for a reason
you know this is i was talking with somebody happens you know you you come to some situation and you know the situation of danger or hazard and some people will simply just respond and they don't have time to figure out of course of action
they'll just respond in the way that they feel is beneficial and some people will not
you know but there's there's some basis for that there's some basis in your karma when you're thinking in the way you were raised up in your values in your practice this is where this is where dork misses where exactly what dog hussein
just wanted
get it exactly right here

you see and understand only what your i have practice can leach
that's it
we're shaping ourselves by our practice which means you know good looking at
our experienced not necessarily in a conscious way but allowing it to allies
it doesn't come from mysterious beyond that's all right yes no i don't know for mysterious beyond you know i just go for i go for guns oh come on by dogan that's what i know why right but we should also recognise it's important that probably the largest school of buddhism
the world and in history is what we would call other power school
where what we are given by the buddha's is beyond our understanding that of yo that's really something to
we have to engage with i think i have been predicted sent the top one thank you will be tough one but you know it's like how did you get here pika
how did you get to sitting in front of the screen with your shaved head tonight
the bar i think yeah right did you do it
what did the buddha's lead you here haha
that's other power
there's something and why i can save them other powers i i don't want to i don't it's a mystery to me
it doesn't mean that it's beyond this world but it is mysterious and i love that history i really do we do
i see to mourn its the tender for these two okay read again europe
harrison's it's a idea
so i've been trying to think about is kind of an odd question baby
what is the difference between your memories that you might have about someone or something and your preconceptions about that thing
gimme an example on not sure like me by that so i'm like there's things that you know like i know what if you know what a chair is right or there are things that you take his facts which they can't be right there phil
people your senses
but i'm trying to think about what it means to knots to look at things without preconceptions write about
yeah but in a way if you know about something that's a preconception if you have a memory of it as a preconception yeah that's right
all i can say in this is a story i've told before
ah one time i took a mind expanding chemical
ah and this was a very very long time now
ah and someone gave me an ice cream cone
and i really didn't know what it was
did make any sense
then they had to show me how to eat it and then i remembered what it was
so
you know
our conceptions are based on language they're based on experience and our understanding is there is no chair
there is no ice cream cone there is no automobile there are causes and conditions that come together to create something that provisionally we call that that thing and you know we be trusted enough and it it can function generally ah
ha
and
get this is what this is what's meant by ah
the fact that has no fixed self it's not like a platonic model of a chair or an ice cream cone or whatever you know ah it's causes and conditions coming together
and i would say
memory is tricky tricky
you know especially the older you get
ah one wonders about the things that one thinks of as memory
if it's did that really happen the book to check it out with people ah
but still
we kind of rely on what we call conventional reality
but it's not necessarily reliable
right but it's a useful enough shorthand for
the unknowable run and like in the luck of the tar such they are always talking about
rabbits with horns and thinks that you can easily imagine
that don't necessarily exist
oh
ah oh shit
all rights ah
we were smart written there was a repeatedly the boy asked the word a figure that the
our linda age and then will close out with been doing the for about okay thanks
well done on
what i'm going back to our
olds letters than emptiness and
you said to her that there's no
no way to get a letter from emptiness except through the senses but so can you speak up a little now
we said to zero there's no way to get a letter from a letter from emptiness except through the senses six sense organ he named them
so should we are you beat that line in the heart sutra that says no eyes no we're no no it's not done nobody on a different
that were no irrelevant know that you know every teaching is medicine
ah that is a teaching you know the whole heart sutra is kind of a crash course on deconstructing are fixed ideas about the dharma
ah
and when it says no eyes no ears no knows no done what you know to me what it's saying is ah
the function of site the function of sound is the conjunction of
the i organ
the object of it
and the i consciousness
the eye itself doesn't see
the eye itself does not provide site it is the conjunction of these with mind which is the necessary object if your ocular nerve were were caught you'd still have an eye and it still be an eye object but you wouldn't see
what's the souls are you very interested in the radical i mean by dear u it's not theoretical
ah other same instead of on right amount of some airway here with you that ah when cheryl spoke of her experience with the blues and also cerebral i think i heard right i would sort of the more than one thing at that time about an experienced
with and
when we said you can only peppers
this through the senses i kind of a understood that my bottom of the famous pebble you know hitting the grid the whenever it was
let the same time i i just wasn't satisfied with me saying that you can only get it through the senses because
i was going on numbered some moment of the breeze like cyril's is or something that sarah also be but
and that that woman it wasn't through the senses was through the nothing nothing at all
it's a letter from impedance i mean that to raise them
it wasn't through anything
i just don't agree
well then
i mean i just i don't think
you know i i would say
that perception is beyond my understanding
but it's not beyond perception it's not beyond its if if my mind wasn't bear
if cheryl wasn't there sitting infer that women window
we wouldn't be talking about this
i don't have a problem with that know i like the and your it's hard to hear you close or not i would never be putting down the senses it's just the some experience and i'm referring to
maybe i'm just thinking of talking about the senses as a subject and object and whereas that experience is not a subject and object them
and i would agree there there are places where we will add their absolutely places where we are beyond subject and object
withers where there is a
it's
you know let me put it another way
if you and i approach each other
and embrace
we're not easily in that moment going to be able to discern
where the physical limits of linda and alan
or
in that moment there is something transcend that transcends subject and object
i just don't think for me it doesn't transcend mind this is just to say this is something that i really wrestled with i'm really trying to to understand i'm trying to to experience
because
there's a lot of talk in zen and it's it's come up here to about direct experience
as if there's something that is beyond perception and beyond mind and i
so far i don't buy it
this and that may be a shortcoming on my practice known all over the system into this is not a sort
i wish it was i wasn't going to and sample anyway
i thank you all for ah
for your questions and for being here it's wonderful to make contact with you this way and ah
i hope that so du rocher you back in a week or two on
and it's you know it's a hard time
there's just say ah

when dharma fills our body and mind it's not just did something is missing the be recognize that
the things go away people we love for away
all this on is a reality of our lives and we're so lucky
we're so lucky to be able to do together
we're so lucky to have each other
and not to be isolated and alone with this excuse