I vow to taste the truth of the Tartarus words. Good evening, everyone. When I walked in, it felt a little bit like a steam room in here. I don't know how you all feel. But, um... Let me know if it's too drafty. Um... So, Kevin, you were gonna... Um... I thought we could start with that. And that was, um... Let's see. Kevin and Sydney. If Kevin wants to try again. Um... No. Maybe I put that wrong. Um... Kevin already recited it last week, but if you want to do it again, it's up to you. So, Kevin, Matthew, Sydney, and Hamilton.

[01:03]

Right? So, whoever would like to go first. Sydney? Would you, um, first repeat the three pure precepts in the new language that you... I didn't get what you were saying. Oh, um... I vow to embrace and sustain right conduct. And I vow to embrace and sustain all good. I vow to embrace and sustain all being. But how about renouncing all evil? That's good. Well, when we talk about the pure precepts, we'll see it's... That first one, I vow to embrace and sustain right conduct, is the renouncing of evil. It's the same. That's the same pure precept. It's just said in a different way. Do you have copies of the precepts?

[02:04]

Um, in the beginning of Vom Smolensky's Full Mountain restaurant, there's this nice list of precepts. I just copied it for myself, but... Okay, I can... We have them. I can certainly... I think everybody in the practice period... No. Do you have them in your list, in your materials? So they are available, um... And maybe... Oh, that would be nice. Well, I've got... And Joe's got one. Um, would some people... Who would like to have a copy tonight of the precepts? One, two, three, four... Five, six... Seven, eight... Maybe about ten or twelve copies. Okay. Okay, thank you, Sonia. I take refuge in Buddha.

[03:10]

I take refuge in Dharma. I take refuge in Sangha. I vow to embrace and sustain life conduct. I vow to embrace and sustain all good. I vow to embrace and sustain all evil. A disciple of Buddha does not kill. A disciple of Buddha does not take that which is not given. A disciple of Buddha does not consume sexuality. A disciple of Buddha does not lie. A disciple of Buddha does not intoxicate the mind or body of self-formers. A disciple of Buddha does not slander. A disciple of Buddha does not praise self at the expense of others. A disciple of Buddha is not possessive of anything. A disciple of Buddha does not harbor ill will.

[04:15]

A disciple of Buddha does not abuse. True confession. Thank you. I take refuge in Buddha. I take refuge in Dharma. I take refuge in Sangha. I vow to embrace and sustain life conduct. I vow to embrace and sustain all good. I vow to embrace and sustain all being. A disciple of Buddha does not kill. A disciple of Buddha does not lie, steal,

[05:17]

A disciple of Buddha does not misuse sexuality. A disciple of Buddha does not steal. A disciple of Buddha does not, oh, lie. A disciple of Buddha does not intoxicate the mind or body of self or others. A disciple of Buddha does not slander. A disciple of Buddha does not praise self at the expense of others. A disciple of Buddha is not possessive of anything. A disciple of Buddha does not harbor ill will. A disciple of Buddha does not abuse the three treasures. I take refuge in Buddha. I take refuge in Dharma.

[06:20]

I take refuge in Sangha. I vow to embrace and sustain all good. I vow to embrace and sustain right conduct. I vow to embrace and sustain all being. A disciple of Buddha does not kill. A disciple of Buddha does not steal. A disciple of Buddha does not lie. A disciple of Buddha does not intoxicate the mind or body of self or others. A disciple of Buddha does not abuse sexuality. A disciple of Buddha does not praise self at the expense of others. A disciple of Buddha does not slander. A disciple of Buddha does not harbor ill will.

[07:22]

A disciple of Buddha is not possessive of anything. A disciple of Buddha does not abuse the three treasures. Would you like to do it again? Oh, sure. I take refuge in Buddha. I take refuge in Dharma. I take refuge in Sangha. I vow to do no evil. I vow to do all good. I vow to save all beings.

[08:23]

I vow not to kill. I vow not to steal. I vow not to lie. I vow not to misuse sexuality. I vow not to intoxicate the mind or body of myself or others. I vow not to praise myself at the expense of others. I vow not to slander. I vow not to harbor ill will. I vow not to be possessive or avaricious of anything. I vow to protect the three treasures. Thank you. Thank you very much, Aldo.

[09:28]

Would anyone like to volunteer to recite next week? So, Paula, Sunchild, Tova, Tova, Great. Okay, we'll do five next week. Let's see. Did you mention about the books? Thank you. So, I'm thinking about, we have five more classes,

[10:35]

and what I was thinking we would do today is, tonight, is review anything that came up last week that you had some questions about, or clarifications, and then to begin talking about the three refuges. And for the sixteen bodhisattva precepts, we start out with the three refuges, which are the first three precepts, so they're called both refuges and the first three precepts. And then I thought next week we'd move to the three pure precepts, so that's three classes. And then the last three classes, not that we can get through all the ten prohibitory precepts, in fact, the rest of the classes could be on the three treasures or on the pure precepts, but since this is an introductory class, this is just what I thought would work, is to just start out with maybe the first three, for taking each one of those for those last three classes.

[11:37]

Disciple of the Buddha does not kill, steal, or misuse sexuality. Erin? Is there anyone who has thoughts for maybe some discussion of the personal and practical applications of the precepts? Yeah, definitely. So are there any questions or clarifications from last week? I was going to hear last week, were there any handouts last week? What's there? The reading list. Oh, the reading list. I think you already have a reading list. Oh, that's the same one? Yes. And there was a tape from last class, if anybody wants to listen to it, who missed the first class. Oh, well, could I get that? Is that true? Isn't there a tape? Oh, I think so. Do you have more of the reading list? Yes, we have more of the reading lists. Oh, okay. I don't want to send you on it. I think I, yes.

[12:39]

Reading list. Here's the reading list, and there's more, which, oh, if you go with Bob to the office afterwards, they're in my basket, reading list. Okay. So, any questions from last week? Just a brief review. I was trying to make a distinction between the monastic pranimoksha precepts that one would take upon entering the Buddhist order, that, you know, from the Buddhist time, that grew from circumstances through the Buddhist time, and were brought into China. But in China, there were other precepts from the Brahmajala Sutra, which were Bodhisattva precepts that were added. So there were two separate kinds of ordinations. And then in Japan, the large set got dropped, and the Bodhisattva precepts became the main set of precepts.

[13:56]

And so that's come down to us, the 16 Bodhisattva precepts. Was that where you used the pranimoksha? Pranimoksha, yeah. Or the 250 precepts. Right. That's the pranimoksha. P-R-A-T-I-M-O-K-S-H-A. Pranimoksha. I have a question. Yes. So, in this traveling, as the precept changes, as the teaching was passed through Southeast Asia and into China, I'm just wondering where Thich Nhat Hanh and his precepts would come with that. Because he's Zen. Yes. Thich, the C-H is a hard sound, Thich Nhat Hanh. Thich Nhat Hanh is a Vietnamese Zen master. You probably have all heard of him. And it's Zen, Vietnamese. It's Zen rather than Theravadin practice.

[15:04]

But during the war, during the Vietnamese-Vietnam War, he and some other monks and nuns, I guess, kind of formed another order, the Tien Hiep order. And they kind of created or made commentary on the precepts and added some. And so they're slightly different. And this is, you know, it's a modern day creation out of the circumstances of their life of the war. So I think the first one has to do with, there's some of you who have taken them. Here, Matthew. I happen to have a copy of the five. I don't know if we're taking too much time. If you wanted to hear them, it would help. Thank you. I've got, there's the first five and then there's like 14. I have the 14 as well. We can read those if you want to. Would you like to hear what those are?

[16:08]

Maybe just some clarifications of the words, because I connect Zen with Mahayana and I connect Mahayana with the Bodhisattva precepts. So I'm wondering if he calls himself Zen, does that mean he's Bodhisattva precepts? It's, and I think it's Bodhisattva precepts, but it's their particular, Matthew, if you can find yours faster, but let's see. Buddha's Pure Action and Compassion in the World. Tien Hiep Order. No, Tiep Hien, T-I-E-P-H-I-E-N Order. It does not consider any sutra or grouping of sutras as its basic text. Inspiration is drawn from the essence of the Buddha Dharma as found in all the sutras. So the first precept, I'll just give you a sense here. Do not be idolatrous about or bound to any doctrine, theory or ideology, including Buddhist ones. Buddhist systems of thought must be guiding means and not absolute truth.

[17:15]

So, you know, in thinking of not to kill, to not kill ideas or other, you know, to not, even for Buddhists, even to have a Buddhist understanding. I mean, it doesn't, I think he has not to kill later, but anyway, that's a very particular one, this not idolatry. It reminds you of not being possessive of anything or, but to be very careful about, and this came out of the war of not standing in a way that separates you. The second one, do not think the knowledge you presently possess is changeless, absolute truth. Avoid being narrow-minded and bound to present views. Learn and practice the open way of non-attachment from views in order to be open to receive others' viewpoints. Truth is to be found only in life and not in conceptual knowledge. Be ready to learn throughout one's life and to observe reality in oneself and in the world at all times.

[18:19]

Yes. Is this the folder that's in the library? Yes, this is mine and there's two folders, two sets. Actually, this is all bound in one notebook, but there's two copies and they each, there's volume one and volume two, and then another volume one and volume two, two sets that are in the library. If you want to look in these. I'll just read the third one. Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever to adopt our view, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education. However, through compassionate dialogue, help others to renounce fanaticism and narrowness. So they're very particular. And then there's also about slander. Oh, I have to read this one, the fourth, and then we'll go on. This is the fourth. Do not avoid contact with suffering or close one's eyes before suffering. Do not lose awareness of the existence of suffering in the life of the world. Find ways to be with those who are suffering by all means, such as personal contact and visits, images, sound. By such means, one should awaken oneself and others to the reality of suffering in the world.

[19:41]

You can take a look at these. Those, I know that there's several people who have received these precepts or joined the Tian, no, Tiep Hien order, and the practices to recite them once a month, and there's groups all over that get together to recite these precepts. Yeah, Wendy is a lineage holder in Thich Nhat Hanh's lineage, and she's going to make available a group that comes together to recite at Green Gulch. She's been going to Berkeley to recite with the group there. So it's very particular to what was going on within there that they came up with these. I have a question. At the end of last class we talked about the precepts of Zazen Lung, that they weren't just community rules. Did that start with Dogen, or did it just become stressed that way, or thinking about it that way, did it start then?

[20:59]

I know that Suzuki Roshi particularly stressed that, which I believe comes right from Dogen, and whether or not, and I assume Dogen's teacher, Ru Jing, who's Chinese, passed that on to him, but I don't know of any particular primary sources that talk about it in that way. I was just going to comment that Bodhidharma... Oh, yes, Bodhidharma and the One Mind Precepts points to that. Yeah. Anything else from last class? I just took a couple of notes that I wanted to make sure that were clear. Maybe we can just move on.

[22:11]

So the Triple Treasure, or the Triple Jewel, are Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. And I actually wanted to hear from people, when they hear about taking refuge in the Triple Treasure, or in the Three Treasures, what it is that occurs to them, or how do you think of that, if you think about it? We do this every night, you know, before practice period, people go to bed, we take refuge, and then that's kind of the last community practice event of the day, is taking refuge together. It's one of the first things we do in Pali, in the morning, when we do Buddham, Saranam, Gacchami, for morning service, that's also taking refuge.

[23:20]

So we kind of start the day, well, we do the repentance first, and then we take refuge, and we end the day with taking refuge. And I just wanted to hear from some of you, how that feels to you. I always get a sense of, and part of this might come from my own original Judeo-Christian background, but a sense of completion, that these three individual elements correspond to being alive and being aware, both in the mind and in the body and in the soul. In a sense that the three jewels each address a certain way of knowing something, knowing it from the heart, knowing it from just being here, and then knowing it from the spirit. So when I recite those, I get a sense that I've covered all the bases, so to speak.

[24:22]

It's just a completeness, a closure to it, that's sort of delicious for me, whatever I can say. There doesn't seem to be anything missing from that. Paula? I agree, and I also think on a sort of functional level, that sometimes when one has a problem, only silence works, only insight. Sometimes words work, the Dharma, and sometimes friends work, the Sangha. And so to me, it's sort of like, okay kid, you've got three options when things are really in the dumper here. Pick one that works this time. And they're all real, they're all something that you can go to, because they don't necessarily all apply to the moment you're in the moment you're in. Could you say a little bit more about the last thing you just said?

[25:24]

That they don't apply to... Sometimes you're in a place where you have to just be silent and breathe, and that's the only thing that's going to help. Oh, I see. Friends wouldn't work in that situation. In some situations, words, you can read something that can comfort you or get you back to where you need to be. And sometimes only the company of friends... Yes. I understand. Thank you. Yes, Rain. At our Yikosapa meetings, sometimes we do the three yiko treasures. Buddha has his nature, I take refuge in nature. The second one, I take refuge in interdependence. And the third one is I take refuge in beings. It's a different way of looking at it. For me, it's kind of like what Gary Snyder has in interpretation.

[26:24]

I think he calls it teachers, wilderness, and friends is his take on the three. But just broadening it, making kind of a broader interpretation of it, maybe. Sometimes, you see. I usually think of it like, sort of like moving into, like taking refuge in a house. Sort of like moving within, living my life inside of the Dharma, where the Dharma is happening. In the Sangha, actually living with people in the Sangha. I mean, I guess it could be living out in a community, but being involved with the Sangha. And actually actively doing the Dharma. I don't know if there are four of them.

[27:26]

But sort of like, just by being in it and exposed to it, it kind of permeates you, and you're kind of manifesting it. Anyone else? Yes, I can't see. Yes, hi. I guess when I think about it, the feeling I get when we get out of this comfort, most of all. Because even those three things that are showing you something hard at that moment. Saying that, just the refuge aspect. There's still that element of shelter there. Rick, can you talk? It seems in a way that you can't have any one of these three without the other two.

[28:26]

They're overlapping, if not trivially overlapping, but each brings the other two completely. How can you have a Buddha without a Dharma? How can you have the Dharma without a Buddha? How can you have the Sangha without the Dharma? So when you take refuge, do you... It's hard to differentiate, it's almost like one event without discriminating too much about aspects of it? Yeah, it's sort of like three manifestations of the same thing. Constructs of the same thing. Yes, for me, I think of the Buddha as practice. Not necessarily a Buddha figure or a teacher, but the sitting practice. Dharma is study, and Sangha is community.

[29:31]

And sometimes one of them seems more important than the other, but I think for me it's really helpful to have a balance. And to know the Sangha is there, that I have friends who are on the path with me. Kendra? I thought of this when Rick was speaking, because as all kind of one thing or creating each other in some ways, I've also heard it simply being, I take refuge in the present moment, I take refuge in the present moment, I take refuge in the present moment, which is the way in which like all three would sort of instantly collide in it, you know? In the present moment. And also, for me a lot of times it brings up the sense of timelessness and spacelessness.

[30:36]

It just seems to open up. Just things get really wide. There's no kind of bias on the Dharma. So, I guess it's just a way to open up. I guess that opens up the world, in a sense. I was really struck by how Norman translated these at the end of the session on Saturday. I think, like the Buddhists, I don't get it exactly, but I take refuge in the natural order of mind beyond my male limited view. They're all along those lines, and I think for me it's going to a place of, even if right now I can't grasp the sense of harmony, even if I can't put my finger on it, that's okay.

[31:38]

It's still there, it's still supporting and operating. It's kind of a relief. Relief. Thank you. I have a similar thought too. It's also a surrender, or beyond my own limited views, and my own ego, and getting past that, and seeing this greater picture, or surrendering to Buddha and to the Dharma and to the Sangha, and allowing that to support me in the universe. This is great. You could just keep going the whole class. You could do the whole lecture. There's somebody over here. Another hand. Yes? For me, there's a sense of finding my home, I guess.

[32:43]

Some kind of confidence that there's something very vast and mysterious. It's also real, and it's also where I stand my ground, where I put myself forward, which feels like home. It's a way of finding my feet on the ground that is vast and mysterious. So, when I think of Buddha as a concept or an ideal or something, we're all in our own way of taking a vow, just by coming here to look inside our lives and stuff, and really look at ourselves. So that's Buddha, standing alone or something. And the Dharma is being supported. It's really hard to support the Dharma, right?

[33:44]

Because you can get stuck in concepts and stuff, and so then you have the Sangha. So when you're lost, you're lost down here, not exactly holding the Dharma, maybe, but you have this whole Sangha helping you, and eventually people drop out and come back in. That's how it is. Yet another way of looking at the jewel. Well, I really thank you all for these wonderful comments. Could everybody hear each other speak? Are we talking loud enough for the room? I think one of the... In these study books that are in the library, there's a number of lectures by Suzuki Roshi, and I've been reading them and... And I felt like everybody was just saying

[34:52]

all these things that he was pointing out. So almost before we get to the three, there's a way of talking about the triple treasure that's called, what Suzuki Roshi calls indivisible, that can't be, sort of like what Breck was saying, it can't be really divided up into three. It's called the one precept, or the indivisible. And all the other precepts, all the three plus all the other ones, are without understanding this one precept, the kind of pre-precept, or original precept, all the other precepts are based on that, and that can be called emptiness, or the absolute, or, you know, the truth, or something. So...

[35:52]

You're saying that the one... The one precept you could maybe call emptiness. Okay. Yeah, and out of emptiness, all the other precepts are based, maybe isn't exactly the word, but come out of this understanding of the one precept of emptiness. So then I realized, well then we have to first talk about emptiness, because everything else really, without that kind of understanding, the precepts can be misunderstood, and the three jewels, when you... The Buddha, the sort of historical Buddha, Shakyamuni Buddha, understood this first precept, this precept of the absolute, or emptiness, let's say, and so he became the awakened one, he woke up. But it's this being who understood this,

[36:53]

that's why they were the Buddha, they understood their Buddha nature. And then the teachings that they gave became the Dharma, you know, and then those people who practiced those teachings, and this is around Shakyamuni Buddha, and taught those teachings as well. But the original kind of waking up was around this one precept, or the precept of emptiness, and that's the indivisible. So there's this... There's this way of dividing up the triple treasures in three different ways, and the first is this indivisible. So the Buddha... I had to do this as a graph because I could not follow this. So if you have Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha as the triple treasure going down this way, then across you've got three things. The first is this indivisible, how you think about Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha as indivisible, and then the next is the manifested ones,

[37:55]

and the third is preserved or maintained. So there's... You can think of the three treasures in three different ways. Indivisible, manifested, and preserved or maintained. So the indivisible, the Buddha, is this... The unity that everything is... Now this sounds very sort of new age, but anyway, everything is one, that there's only... And you are not separate from this one. The form is emptiness, emptiness is form. The truth of this, and that you can't get out of that, there's nobody standing outside of this truth, is this indivisible treasure, triple treasure says indivisible. But just, you know,

[38:57]

we chant the Sandokai, the merging of difference and unity, so we have this unity, but then we see all the multiplicity, all the things of the world, so that's the difference, so there's all these differences, and then there's the unity. So the Dharma as the indivisible is this seeing of all the multiplicity of things, and then the Sangha is the fact, it kind of joins those, the Sangha is the harmony between basically the difference and unity, the unity, the truth of the unity, and the fact that we see all this multiplicity, and the fact that they're merged, or that they're together, in harmony is the Sangha. Okay, so that's all in this category of the indivisible triple treasure. So you know how, for the Bodhisattva ceremony,

[39:58]

when we take the refuges, we say the third one is, after I take refuge in Buddha, before all being, bringing harmony to everyone, freed from hindrance, that's this pointing to the Sangha as this harmoniousness between difference and unity, and also in, so I'll just hold myself there for a second. So I just want to read a few things that Suzuki Roshi says about this indivisible thing, because he's trying to get this point across, and there's a couple of lectures, there's one in 1967, that, the first of the 16 precepts we observe, how can I say it, the one reality which cannot be divided into 3 or 16, it is the precept of one reality, you may call it emptiness,

[41:00]

and then, there's various ways of understanding, but what we study, what we observe is the one precept, that is what we receive when we receive the 16 precepts. So this one precept of emptiness, that everything comes out of emptiness. So I wanted to maybe stop and talk about emptiness a little bit. Let me just read this other thing. When you just practice Zazen on your black cushion, your practice includes everything, and you practice Zazen with Buddha, with the ancestors, and with all sentient beings. That is what I always repeat over and over. Whether your practice is good or bad, it doesn't matter. If you accept your practice as your own, then that practice includes everything. At that time,

[42:02]

you have the precepts which include everything, as the absolute being includes everything. So he pulls together, and this is the, the last thing I said in class about Zazen. Yes, Darcy. So our Zazen mind, the Zazen that we practice is faith in our own Buddha nature, faith in our, in our enlightenment already, and sitting with that mind in Zazen is this expression of the truth of this one precept. Just to be you yourself, thoroughly, thoroughly be you yourself is our Zazen and is the precepts, is the observing of the precepts. And it's hard to understand this.

[43:06]

And actually, to actually think, well, yeah, I get that, I understand that, I got it, you know, is some way that we have of making it into something understandable and kind of in a limited way, small mind says, okay, I got that. But actually, we don't know. I mean, what I just said is just these words which are kind of pointing us in some way, or you maybe get some feeling when you hear that, like, I don't know what, struggling on the black cushion, but whether you struggle on the black cushion or whether your practice you feel is good or bad, our Zazen is pointing to, that doesn't make sense exactly, the teaching around the Zazen practice is not, you know, the Zazen I speak of is not learning meditation,

[44:07]

that you can learn, it's this expression of your Buddha nature. So, but we can't even conceive of that, that we're, you know, one with the universe in this way, or we can have a conception of it, but that's very different from actual, the actuality of it, because we confine it in our conceptual thinking and make it very small. When you are you on your cushion, then it includes everything, the entire universe and the triple treasure, and you are the awakened one, you are Buddha. Buddha's mind is no different from anyone else's mind, this is our mind. So, this indivisible Buddha, Dharma and Sangha is, it's you. It's, it's, you know, we often think of

[45:12]

the Shakyamuni Buddha who lived 2,500 years ago, or Buddha statues or something, to actually think, they're talking about this Buddha mind that resides right here, right now. So, this effort to, you know, settle ourselves on ourself, or that's a kind of, kind of Giriroshi, I think, little phrase, settle yourself on yourself, thoroughly become yourself, and when you think, well, gee, if I was to thoroughly become myself, they'd kick me out of here or something like that. But that's not yourself, that's a limited view of self. So, this taking refuge in the enlightened nature, what did Norman say? Oh, what did he say? After the sitting,

[46:12]

I take refuge in Buddha. I take refuge in Buddha. I'm sure other people could help out too. I take refuge in the natural order of mind beyond my own limited thinking. Exactly. So, that's it right there. So, the natural order of mind is kind of settling yourself on that self, the natural order of mind, beyond your limited view of who you are. So, I just want to take a minute to talk about emptiness. I should take a minute to talk about emptiness. A sense of, in an intellectual way about emptiness. And, you know, I think a lot of you have read or maybe some of you have read Thich Nhat Hanh's commentaries on the Heart Sutra where he talks about, in a very, very helpful way, about emptiness. So, I'll just do kind of

[47:18]

my version of kind of getting us in the mood for... Do you have an understanding of emptiness? When I say emptiness, do you kind of draw a blank or do you kind of... What? Which delusion do we have? Well, me too. You know, it's like... These are words that we're going to use to... You know, for me, sometimes I hear certain words and I feel like there's these new pathways that are being sort of forged, new synapses. It's actually like I can feel it kind of forging ahead, and a whole new way of thinking about it. And because this indivisible Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha and all the other precepts kind of look to this, I thought we should just spend some time on emptiness.

[48:19]

So, let's see. So, when we usually think of emptiness, or when I used to... When I first came to Zen Center, I hated the word emptiness. It was like, but I just wanted to sit and, you know, just sit. What? You just wanted to pursue emptiness. Yeah, maybe so. But the thought of actually trying to listen to somebody talk about it or read about it was just beyond me. And then later on, I began to kind of take a peek, and then I got very interested in emptiness a couple years ago, so... So, usually, when we think of emptiness, it was translated kind of early on as nothingness or the void, you know. You'll see it in... D.T. Suzuki, I think, uses the word void. But the word that they're translating is shunyata, which means something

[49:21]

that's swollen, that looks swollen up, like a gourd, but inside there's nothing there, but it looks like something. It looks like a thing, but there's nothing inside. So that's what the root of the word shunyata is referring to. So emptiness is... It's not like nothingness or some kind of blankness. It actually... When we say empty, we mean that something is empty of an own being or empty of an individual, or an almost separate, inherent self that you can kind of have all by yourself, unconnected with everybody else. Now, you know, when Rain said that I take refuge in nature and interdependentness for the second one, and all being, we kind of know this intellectually, I think, or more than intellectually, that we're all interconnected. But we have a tendency of mind...

[50:22]

The purpose of Buddhism is to think that there is a separate self, or self and other are separate. And we see it over and over, even though we have some understanding that we're all one, you know, or interdependent or connected, still we... It's not thorough enough, you know, it's not thorough understanding. And emptiness means emptiness of this inherent self or this separate self. That's what everything is empty of, because there is nothing that has inherent existence or that has a self that's... If you can imagine what it would be, it would be something that was unchanging, right? Because it was not dependent and it's not related to anything. It's got its own self. So that means it couldn't be, you know, get old and die and all sorts of things, right?

[51:26]

So if you begin to think about it logically, how could there be such a thing that would exist by itself, all by itself? Everything is interconnected, meaning empty of its own nature. So, you know, for an example, I'll use this cup. So here we have this cup. Now, this looks like a cup, right? That exists all by itself and we look at it and we think, yeah, that is a cup and it is separate. It's like when I... I remember saying to my dad after I'd been here for a while, I said, I and the tree are one. And he said something like, you are not one with the tree. You are there and the tree is there. And I was like, yeah, he's right. This is kind of my new age kind of thing

[52:26]

that I brought home to St. Paul, Minnesota, but it was nice. So, so, you know, you might say, I and this cup are one, but, you know, what are we really talking about? This cup is by itself and it can break. Well, first of all, at the same time that this cup I'm going to drink is some nice hot water in here. Mm-hmm. This, this cup didn't sort of appear magically like a genie that brought, well, probably some genie. But it was made out of, this is probably porcelain. Porcelain is a certain kind of clay, right? And so that clay that's found in the ground, I don't know how long it took for that to be, you know, formed under the ground, but it has all sorts of minerals and probably dead animal life and everything is under, in there and plus the ground over it and the moisture and the rain that kept

[53:27]

that area moist. And so the clay itself that this was made out of was completely dependent on all sorts of factors, you know, of water and earth and air. Mm-hmm. And then somebody discovered where that deposit was so you've got that person and they dug it out and then they transported it and then there was, you know, all the fossil fuel that brought the truck that brought this to the factory and this was made. Of course there's the person's parents. And the person's parents, I can't read what this says, but it's really teeny. Anyway, so it was made somewhere and the potter, somebody designed this lovely, you know, this, beautiful design and the colors and then all the glazes, you know, and where they came out of the ground and the factory

[54:30]

and then all these people had to have air to breathe and sunlight and water and food and then who brought the food and pretty soon you realize there's an entire universe right here. Not one. There is nothing, you know, that we can say that this cup is the entire cosmos right here. And if you took one thing away, you know, like, this cup would not be here. So it is empty of its own nature. It's empty of a separate, inherent being of everything. It is the entire world right there. It's the entire universe. And what? And water. And it also has water and we can use it as a cup and instead of, you know, for short, we don't call it the cosmos, you know, because we call it a cup

[55:33]

so that somebody can get it and bring it, otherwise they won't know that what I just, that story I just told is the same with everything, including yours truly and including each one of you. You are the entire universe, each one of you, the entire, each one of you. But we have, for convenience sake, we call each other names and, you know, we have driver's licenses and things like that. But actually, in emptiness, we are, that's who we are. That's our birthright. That's our Buddha nature. So there's no problem, right? Yes? How would that cup exist if I couldn't see? Yeah, so along with that, along with, you know, we call this a cup, but that's conventionally speaking

[56:34]

because, you know, those of you who have heard me say this before, to a Martian, let's say, to a Martian, this would be a, or let's say to a, you know, a water bug or something, what? A giant ghost. A hungry ghost. A hungry ghost, this might be like, well, some awful substance that they try to, you know, I won't even say what it is, some putrid substance because that's what water is to hungry ghosts. And to a water bug, it's, you know, it's home. And to, you know, to somebody who's never seen water before, it's a jewel. I mean, it catches all the light and it moves. They might think it's alive. Like if a Martian came and looked at this and had never seen water, it's like, so part of what makes this a cup of water is that we all agree that this isn't really a cup. There's no such thing as a cup. We all say this is a cup. So altogether, we create this world

[57:38]

of cups and books and paper. But there isn't really, there isn't really existing anywhere in a, in a, what? Absolute. In an absolute way, there are not books and tables and beings, you know. And this meditation, that we're kind of doing a meditation on this, you know, like with this table, let's say, this table, we call it a table. It's, you know, wood with these four things, but we just agree to call it a table. And it serves very well. But, in actuality, well, in actuality, it's the entire universe and then we create together our world. So, this, when I say about these liberative pathways, you know, thinking in this way, you know, everything changes, right? Form is emptiness.

[58:39]

Everything that we see is form comes out of emptiness, comes out of, the entire world brings it to you, brought to you by, you know, brought to you by the entire world and it, we just agree to call it these things. So it's a very kind of light, meaning not reified and not this kind of solid thing. It's, it has a kind of lightness to it. And, because of impermanence, you know, these things will, they arise, there's some duration and they go. You know, there's nothing that stays, including our friends and ourselves. Samantha, did you have anything? Yeah, I was wondering if you could explain the use of the term relative then,

[59:40]

as opposed to the absolute. Yeah. Yeah. So, the relative world, which is this world of things, all this multiplicity of things that we see, that we agree on also, but if you're in another culture it would be another set, you know, that's the relative. And the relative, the absolute, integrate it in that the relative comes out of emptiness. We, in the same way as the cup comes out of, the entire universe creates cup, but it's still, we still can use it and drink out of it and buy it and give it as a gift and so we can use the relative, you know, or we, that's where we move around in, I mean that's, that's what we, you don't want to get kind of caught,

[60:41]

see, too much emptiness, the sutra says, if you just get stuck in emptiness, it's like, eating, it's like, emptiness is like salt, it can flavor all the foods and bring everything into, you know, into a flavor of harmony, but you don't want to eat plain salt, you know, so you don't want to get stuck in, you know, you hear people say, oh it's all one man, you know, like with my dad, I am one with the tree, well that was like, you know, I kind of had the right idea, but it was like, I was stuck, I am, the tree and I are actually, we function differently in the relative world, but in, in truth, we come out of emptiness together. Is that the meaning of merging of difference and unity, where it says, merging is auspicious to not violate, is that the meaning of that? Yeah,

[61:42]

I think so, the getting stuck in the, in the absolute side, yeah. Yes. So I had a thought with that in mind, that the precepts of like, following the precepts has really nothing to do with the precepts at all, I mean, like these are words, these are, are forms, but really precept away, I don't know what I am exactly trying to say, but these are just like a container, but it's not really, it's not really I feel like you're really on the right track, the precepts are not like these rules that we follow, it's, this is the way the Buddha lives, you know, disciple, for example, the prohibitory ones, the disciple, the Buddha does not take, does not steal,

[62:43]

how can you steal, how can you steal that cup, you know, from where, where are you going to steal it and get it, give it to whom? It's all, you know, we're all in this together, so to actually know that and live accordingly is this one precept, the one precept of emptiness, so it doesn't arise then in the mind that I want that for I, me and mine because you already are those things there, you don't need them for yourself, for what? It's all based on ignorance and delusion, so, I don't know if that's kind of what you're, that sounds like what you're going towards, but the point is that the precepts themselves are a description of Buddha mind rather than these rules, it's a description of really the way things are. It's just words and sounds, but it's really, doesn't have actually to do with the, the performing of it or the actual like dance of it. Yes, but, but we do need

[63:44]

the words and the sounds because human beings really are kind of hot-wired, not hot-wired, wired. Hard-wired. Hot-wired is when you're stealing a car. Hard-wired to have these words and the words, you know, so speaking Dharma, that's why a lot of the precepts and the Eightfold Path, you know, it's about right speech and because to actually embody speech in mind, you know, when we do the repentance, speech is very important, you know, what comes out and what's said and when you read something, what happens to you, when you hear the teaching, when it comes in, you know, so, and these are just words, just like you said, you know, these are just words and you have to respect them and take very good care of them like these precious, they're precious and important and they're pointing. Yeah.

[64:45]

Yes. I remember reading in the Mind of Clover, this reminds me of something when you said that something along the lines of what is, how could I, how could I steal this cup, where he talks about what he thinks is a misinterpretation of the precept of not killing, which is that you couldn't kill anyway. It's, he talks about the samurai code of, of, you know, the sword and the one who was struck by the sword, there's no different, he says that this is a misinterpretation Yes. of that precept but it sounds perilously close to what you just said about it's not being possible to steal this cup, so I'll just take it. Well, see, that's the danger

[65:48]

and the precepts, you know, talking about them in terms of the one mind, the one precept, you know, that this is done with great caution, you know, it's not done to like a non-initiated group or in a kind of a lecture where you don't have a chance to really discuss it and turn it and ask a question like that because, yes, the mind says, oh, just like, you know, it's all one man, so, yeah, I could do whatever because I'm part of the universe and, you know, so who cares? And that's a perversion, you know, the Buddha mind is it's all one and the, and therefore it's, I use this or I use the things of the world and, but, it's through the, you know, the grace or the benefits that I receive from everybody that I have, the things I have and there's, it doesn't arise to take what isn't given or to, so,

[66:48]

so without this thorough understanding, that's why it's, anyway, there's a number of admonitions around this about teaching the precepts at all in this way, you know, because of the misunderstandings that can happen. So you want to have an initiated group who's practicing and sitting and has a chance to do dialogue around it. So, yeah, that's like getting caught in the emptiness side. That's not the middle way. That's, it's all one man, you know, and then the other way is I must follow these things and I cannot do anything. That's kind of the other getting caught. So the, the precepts are more, they're alive and they're really alive and not formulaic. Thank you for that question. Yes? I'm not sure where this fits in but I keep having this question around we've all agreed to call that cup, at least in the English-speaking world.

[67:52]

Yes. What if we were overrun by beings who looked pretty much like we do but who insisted that that was not cup, that that was person. What if they, what if they insisted that it was What if they insisted it was what? Tree top. Tree top, yeah. Face. Male elephant. Hand. Right. Well, you know, this kind of thing happens, right? Where one culture overruns another and for example, you know, in the Neolithic, you know, these farming communities with goddess worshipping peoples and then the the sky god worshippers on horses came down and just destroyed all that and they said, you know, the snake that was sacred was evil and they, the whole, all of it just got,

[68:53]

the world turned upside down, you know, and you can't do that kind of worship and you can't meet in this way and you, and it's, and that's bad and you get burned for that. I mean, you know, these things happen. Yeah, so the conventional you know, and they, they even happen right here, you know, like with orioke or something, like, you know, we're, the chopsticks face this way rather than this way. Well, we have to have a convention about it sometimes. We have to have a big meeting, goes to the abbess council and then, okay, we're going to face the chopsticks, you know, they're going to be laid down from 10 to 4, not 11 to 5 on the, on the bowl, you know. So, I think it's yeah, there's suffering in that, you know, the, when those things kinds of change, big upheavals, but even small things like a misunderstanding with your friend, you know, where you have to, then you have to work it out. What did you mean by that?

[69:53]

You know, I feel like I'm getting off a little bit, conventional designations, it's all, all of this is conventionally designated. That we agree, you know, pretty much, we agree. Yes? Something that's been useful for me in framing, the over, the pre-precept, the one great precept, exists to me in the absolute, which is a way of being and awareness. It's not a way of action. In the relative world, for human beings, it's a place of action. So that the prohibitory precepts or the proscriptive precepts are about the relative world, where the other precept is about the absolute. So you live these ten koans because they're about action in the world, which is the relative plane that we live on.

[70:54]

So you shouldn't take it because you can't act from that place of awareness. There's no, there's no cub, human being, dog to act. Am I making myself misunderstood? Um, let me see if I understood you. So you're saying that in the world of emptiness nothing happens really. There's nothing that can happen. There is no action that can happen. And in the relative world there's all sorts of action that happens and yet there's this relationship between them which, so what you just described is the indivisible, what we were talking about, Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha, the indivisible triple treasure where there's the unity, that's the Buddha, then there's the multiplicity in all the things, that's the Dharma, and the fact that they, the harmony between them, because they're not separated, you know, is the Sangha in this indivisible way. So yeah, I think that, you know, there was this

[71:55]

poem, I think it was, for some reason it really has stayed in my mind that it was the Dharma and the Mountain Seat Ceremony for Richard Baker, Zen Tatsu Baker, when he, when Suzuki Roshi stepped down and he stepped up to be the Abbot of Zen Center and he offered incense at various altars and he, at one altar he said, I offer this incense with no hand. That was the first line and then there was other ones, but I remember thinking what do you mean no hand? I offer this incense with no hand. And that to me is the, that's the merging of difference and unity right there, that line and many, many other lines, you know. So we do what we do in the world, we do offer incense and drink tea, but we do it with no separate self, you know, with no hand. This is the entire universe is offering incense. So, so there is action

[72:56]

and yet it can, it flickers between the two, there's this harmony between the two. It's not, I just don't want it to feel like it's separated and cut from each other. I guess what I was trying to say, to me this overarching precept informs and infuses action but it can't be action because up here there is no evil, there is no right, wrong, there is no good, bad, there is only it. Right. Whereas down here it's necessary to have some agreements in the action form. And I'm I'm talking in sort of a functional way rather than saying that the precepts are also the Buddha mind, they're not rules. There's the koan and then there's the Buddha mind. No, thank you, that was very helpful. How are we doing for time? My eyes see clear too.

[73:57]

So I want to just read a little bit more of Suzuki Roshi. So he's talking about you know, he's talking about when stone is stone. Now this is a this is a Prashna Paramita kind of formula. When when stone is truly stone, when a stone is really a stone, it is not a stone. Therefore it is a stone. Okay? So it's like when this cup is really a cup, meaning the entire universe, then then it's not a cup anymore, right? Therefore it is a cup. Okay? Should I do that again? Therefore it is to do with yourself. So and you can do it for yourself. When you are you know, truly you, then you're not you anymore in that small limited way. You are therefore

[75:01]

you can be you, you know, free. Right? So do you mean when a cup is not a cup? When a cup is truly a cup. is truly a cup. Yes. It's not a cup because it's the manifestation of the whole universe but therefore it is a cup which is the manifestation of the whole universe. Well, it is a cup that we use in its cupness way. Whatever we do with cups, that's what we do with that. But never forgetting that, you know, it's not really a cup. But of course it is a cup. That's, that's the, see how it flickers back and forth, you know? That's the Prajnaparamita, that's the perfection of wisdom. Actually, you know, where you see the world like that, you know, like always. You're not fooled anymore, like with people and stuff you want, thirds on chocolate cake, you know? So, really, so,

[76:03]

so he's talking about when a stone is a stone, I'll just read you this because you'll like it, I think. When a stone is really a stone, that is when a stone is really a stone, through and through. That is really a stone. Not only is it really a stone, but when it is really a stone, the stone includes everything. The stone cannot be picked up by anyone when the stone is really a stone. It's kind of what Paul was saying. So, you know, when you pick this up, this isn't picking up the cup or the stone, you know what you're picking up, it's, right? When it is not a stone, someone may pick it up. Yeah, that old cup over there, yeah. But when it is really a stone, you cannot do so. You cannot do anything with it. This is what Paul was saying. When a stone is really a stone, you cannot pick it up, even though you think you picked it up. It is still part of the universe. It is you who thinks you picked it up, but actually you didn't. It is still

[77:05]

a part of the universe. You cannot pick up the whole universe. If you say, if you say, if you say, you didn't pick up the whole universe, where are you? Right? Because there you are outside. If you are a ghost, you are outside the universe. That is just delusion. Nothing exists outside of the universe. All that exists is within the universe. So to think that you can pick up a stone is a big delusion. Stone is still stone. You cannot do anything with it. If you understand this point and sit zazen, that is how you receive the precepts. That is the only way to observe perfect precepts. There is no other way to

[78:12]

do that. The only way to receive the precepts is to understand this point. How do you understand emptiness? The teaching that has been passed down in this lineage is to sit, just sit without adding anything. The first time you come to Zen Center and do Zazen instruction we are told, don't grab anything, don't push anything away, just sit. You are given the whole entire teaching right there the first day you walk in. There is nothing held back. But we don't get it. There has got to be something more than that. But actually it is pointing to that, those first things you hear. So if you understand this point and sit Zazen, that is how you receive the precepts. Let us see here. Let me just go on a little bit. So we

[79:23]

just talked about the indivisible Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. And then the next group is what is called the manifested Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. So then you have a person, I said this before but I will say it again, you have a person who has realized this one precept, has realized the indivisible Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, the unity, the multiplicity of things and the harmony between. And that person is the awakened one. So they manifest in the world as the Buddha. And Shakyamuni Buddha is, when we talk about the Buddha, we usually think of Shakyamuni Buddha. So realizing this in your own body or the Buddha realized this in his own body, that was manifested. And then the teachings that came out of this person are the manifested triple treasure, the teachings that are out there in the world. And the disciples are the people studying the three treasures and manifesting it in

[80:24]

time and space are the Sangha of the manifested. And then the third grouping, way to look at the triple treasures is maintained or preserved. So you've got Shakyamuni Buddha as the manifested, he sort of appeared in the world. And then the Buddha of the maintained and preserved are all the teachers that have been transmitted all the way down through the ages. So generation after generation, those are the maintained and preserved Buddha. All these different teachers and also culturally speaking, the Buddha figures and temples and all those kinds of things are maintaining and preserving Buddha or the awakened one. And then the Sangha, the scriptures, it's the teachings of all these people through the generations and the koans and all. So it's not just the Buddha and his disciples and teachings and the sutras, it's all the teachers

[81:27]

all the way through up till now are the maintaining, they maintain and preserve. And the Sangha are all these people down through the ages who studied with all those different teachers all the way up to us. So to take this jewel, and it's called a jewel, and you can kind of, I feel like tonight just listening to you all speaking is like, I can sort of feel the jewel being turned and getting each person's, you know, the facet and shining, you know, from each person. And to actually, when we do our bows, you know, we, in Japanese, it's namu kie butsu, I take refuge in Buddha and namu means sort of homage and kie means to plunge into, to plunge into and

[82:29]

rely on, kie. So that's the way they translate refuge, or we translate refuge, this kie, plunging into and relying on. So I'm sorry, you said the first one was homage? Is that in a certain way saying I plunge into and rely on homage? No, it's more like homage and I plunge into and rely on the Buddha. Together they mean refuge? Yeah. That's another way of thinking of taking refuge, as sort of plunging into and relying on. For your, you know, the word refuge means to fly back to, and someone was mentioning this home feeling and taking and comfort, Nora was saying, so to take refuge is to fly back to some safe place, you know, or, you know, a refugee, I guess, is someone who goes away from danger, right? That's what a refugee does, to get to some safer place. So to go to the triple gem, by plunging, plunging yourself in, you don't have to go

[83:35]

anywhere, is the thing, because you are already the awakened one, and out of you can come the teachings and this harmony. So it's taking refuge in your own enlightened nature. Anyway, the more I talk about it, the more, you know, as I turn it, it's like you can think about taking refuge in Shakyamuni Buddha, or a teacher that has been helpful to you, or to feel like you go to them for refuge and comfort and help, or go to your Buddhist friends, your practitioner friends who understand, so we go for refuge, but you could also go, you can fly back here, you know, right here. So, you know what time it is? It's time to

[84:42]

take refuge. Actually, what would you think about, just so the people who aren't in the practice group, maybe we can all do it here together. Shall we do that? Okay, let's do that. So let's see, why don't we close the class and dedicate the merit of our efforts tonight with our chant, and then I think maybe we just do bows at our place. There's not room to do full bows. We could stand up though, and do standing bows. What do you think? Why don't we first dedicate the merit just where we are, and then we'll stand up and do full bows. May they have our intention.

[85:29]

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