My assignment is to introduce you and in many cases to reintroduce you to Suzuki Roshi. He was the founder of our temple here in Berkeley and the teacher of our teacher, Sojin Roshi. You could say he is our grandfather or father, depending on your age, in the Dharma. And his great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather, and ours too, is Dogen Zenji. This is Dogen Zenji representation and of course that's Suzuki Roshi. We have several images of Suzuki Roshi around Berkeley Zen Center. There's a big oil portrait in the community room, I'm sure you've all noticed, and there are many photographs of him.

[01:04]

In one book in particular I'm going to talk about, there are many photos so you have a pretty good idea what he looked like in different situations. I won't say any more about ancestors and lineages and families because that's the subject of another class of this Aspects of Practice course. So you'll be hearing a good deal about that in a week or two. Although we can get a good idea of what he looked like, it's not so easy a matter to grasp his teaching. But we do have some helpful pointers. First and foremost, we have our own teacher, Sojin Roshi, or Mel. His name before he became Sojin Roshi was Mel Weitzman.

[02:08]

And you will hear many people call him Mel and refer to him as Mel. And in fact he often just says he's Mel when he's in a group and introducing himself. So I'll probably refer to him as Mel throughout this talk. You'll know who I mean. I trust. Anyhow, Mel has studied with Suzuki Roshi for many years throughout Suzuki Roshi's time in America. That is from 1959 until December 1971. And so as we listen to Mel talk, Saturdays and on other occasions, and observe how he acts, I think we can get a pretty good feeling for Suzuki Roshi's teaching. Mel even looks a little like him.

[03:12]

Do you want to tell that story briefly again, Alan? Oh, just, I said this the other day. I remember somebody came in while Mel was sitting there, came in afterwards, and was saying, That was wonderful sitting there. Why does that guy have a picture of himself? Goodness. We also have some published works by or about Suzuki Roshi. Our own monthly newsletter frequently includes lectures given by Suzuki Roshi. And San Francisco Zen Center's quarterly publication called The Wind Bell occasionally publishes pieces by Suzuki Roshi. And you should know that these written by Suzuki Roshi pieces have been transcribed, all of them.

[04:17]

Everything that is written by him is actually transcribed from tapes that people began making, his students began making about the mid-1960s. So in this class, I want to point you to four books that offer different perspectives on Suzuki Roshi and his Zen teachings. And they are right here. First one is called How the Swans Came to the Lake. It was written by Rick Fields, published in 1981. And it places Suzuki Roshi in an historical context. It places him in the sweep of the history of Buddhism or a history of Buddhism in America. The book is a descriptive narrative.

[05:17]

It's not analytical or evaluative. It's a nice, easy read and it's fun to read. But because it was published in 1981, it's missing the most recent 20 years. But it's still a good read. So I certainly recommend it. The second book is a biography, which I'm sure many of you have seen. It's called Crooked Cucumber, the Life and Zen Teachings of Shunryo Suzuki. It's by David Chadwick. The third book, like the fourth book, is Suzuki Roshi's own talks. This one is called Branching Streams Flow in the Dark. It was published in 1999. And it contains an introduction by our own teacher, Mel, which offers some personal comments and observations about the way Suzuki Roshi spoke English.

[06:23]

And the text itself elucidates Suzuki Roshi's understanding of a central tenet of Buddhism. Which is the harmony of difference and equality. It's a poem called the Sandokai. I'll talk a little bit more about that later. And the fourth book, Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, which is the one I know and love the best, I call a direct and intimate opening to Suzuki Roshi's Zen Heart and Mind. Tonight I intend to talk mostly about this book. But first I want to mention some features of the other books. Rick Field's book, which has a lot of pictures, which is good, always good, starts all the way back with the story of Buddha's enlightenment.

[07:27]

And then sweeps rapidly along through the spread of Buddhism from India. And its first glimmerings among the New England transcendentalists, Thoreau and Emerson, and to the spiritualists and theosophists of mid-19th century America, to the culmination at the World Parliament of Religions, which was held in Chicago in 1893. Several talks on Buddhism were given then. So it's pretty fun to read. You can skip the parts that don't interest you. And about halfway along, the 500, 400-page book, the narrative comes to Suzuki Roshi's arrival and reception in America, notably in San Francisco in 1959. This was where beat poets and musicians and the whole counterculture was in full bloom.

[08:30]

You probably remember that, many of you. And Rick Field notes that Suzuki's message was, where there is practice, there is enlightenment. Practice, not poetry, was the nub. At that moment, that message was a distinctly new departure for Buddhism in America. The book also recounts Suzuki Roshi's gradually attracting a substantial number of American students, mostly white males, I have to say, but that's okay. Pardon? I don't know. Maybe so. But they were mostly white males. But there always have been women among the students of Suzuki Roshi from the beginning

[09:31]

and that too is a, oh, sorry about that, a distinctly different note that Suzuki Roshi brought and his students caused to happen as well in San Francisco and throughout what became the Zen Center structure. And of course, here we have absolute equality, if not better. Because now is very empathetic with women. Anyhow, again, this book goes through his attracting students and the establishment of the first ever in America Zen Monastery down in Karma Valley at Tassajara Zen Mountain Center and also the establishment on Page Street in San Francisco of Zen Center.

[10:34]

And the book's coverage of Suzuki Roshi ends with his installation of Richard Baker as his Dharma heir and his death shortly thereafter in December 1971. Now, what you as the reader gets from this book about Suzuki Roshi are a few things, the tremendous generosity of his spirit and wonderful sense of humor, the constancy and sincerity of his effort as a Zen teacher and the prodigious amount of sheer hard work he put in along with his students to establish his way, Dogen Zenji's way, in America. Notwithstanding his achievement, he is said to have said near the culmination of his effort, I hope I won't be sorry for this. Did you ever hear that, Ellen?

[11:36]

I know I heard that, and I think it's another very telling example of Suzuki Roshi's, one of his favorite phrases, which is, it's not always so. Or, yes, but. So, that's certainly another touch of his. Now, these attributes that I've just named are also quite evident in David Chadwick's full-length biography, which contains many facts and dates and place and people names telling everything that David could find out about Suzuki Roshi, his family, his boyhood, his early training as a priest in Japan. His father was a Zen priest, and the family lived in rural Japan in modest circumstances. He was born in 1904. He studied not with his father, but with a disciple and the adopted son of his father,

[12:45]

a man called Kyokujun Soan Suzuki. And the young Suzuki, called Toshi when he was a boy, left home with his teacher at age 11, pre-puberty. It was Soan, his teacher, who called him Crooked Cucumber. It was an affectionate nickname, but not complimentary. Crooked cucumbers were useless. Farmers would compost them. Children would use them for batting practice. Soan told the young Suzuki that he was a dimwit who would never have any good disciples. Later, Suzuki Roshi said that although he always knew he was not very sharp, he thought maybe his dullness was an advantage in studying Buddhism. That's the kind of guy he was. The book also tells of his young manhood and marriage and family and his coming to America,

[13:51]

and all of the subsequent encounters and events of his life in San Francisco and at Tassajara. It's full of detail and information and incident. It's lively and full of colorful detail, especially about the personalities and politics of Zen Center in those early years. So if you have any curiosity about that, you can see what David Chadwick found out about it. And also sprinkled throughout the narrative are explicit nuggets of Suzuki Roshi's Zen teaching, and of course also valuable is all the implicit teaching that emerges from Suzuki Roshi's actions and interactions, which David reports in great detail. I'll leave it to you to discover for yourself. But there is one part of the story I want to bring forward,

[14:52]

as Suzuki Roshi's teaching about taking an unequivocal or extreme position. When asked about this or that seemingly incontrovertible fact of life, he would often reply, yes, but or not always so. Here is the story as I gleaned it from David's book. Suzuki Roshi was what we might call a pacifist during World War II. And in the years immediately preceding it, when Japanese society was taken over by a feverish and strident militaristic imperialism, although priests were readily drafted into military service, he was not. Later, he thought it was because the authorities feared his unusual ideas would hurt morale. Although it was dangerous to talk against the hard right propaganda of the time,

[15:55]

the young priest Suzuki met discreetly from time to time with small gatherings of local educated people. He wanted to try and foster a balanced view. He talked about how much more Japan could accomplish if there were peace. Later, he said of this period, even before the war, I had strong feelings against war. My focus was not so much on preventing war as on trying to counter one-sided views of Japan's situation of ourselves and of human nature. David Chadwick points out that Suzuki Roshi, quote, never overtly invoked the precept against killing to advocate an end to the war on moral grounds. The third book I've brought this evening, Branching Streams Flow in the Dark,

[16:58]

is Suzuki Roshi's commentary on the Sando Kai, which is a poem by Sekito Kisen Daisho, a Chinese ancestor of Buddhism who lived 1,200 years ago. This poem is called A Core Text of Soto Zen. It is recited or chanted every day in Soto Zen temples throughout the world. And we recite it here a few times a week, yesterday evening, for instance, and this morning as well, the Sando Kai. The poem addresses the question of the coexistence of the oneness of things and the multiplicity of things. The oneness of things and the multiplicity of things, their coexistence. Sojin Roshi, that is our own Mel, and Michael Wenger, who is a student of Suzuki Roshi's at San Francisco Zen Center, they were the people who edited the transcripts made from the lectures that Suzuki Roshi gave about this poem.

[18:10]

And the lectures were given at Tassajara in the summer of 1970. In his introduction, Mel makes an interesting point about Suzuki Roshi's way of using English. Suzuki Roshi sometimes made up phrases to express himself in a non-dualistic way. The best known example was his using the phrase, things as it is, to mean the fundamental nature of reality. He also used the phrase, things as they are, to refer to our usual discriminating way of thinking. So there was no doubt that he knew the difference quite well. But he liked to use things as they is to make his point, to make us stretch our mind. He also made up the word, independency, to express the curious fact that we are at the same time completely independent and completely dependent.

[19:16]

I recommend this reading to you. I myself am not going to be foolish enough to try to sum it up in any way. But in his introduction, Mel tells the reader that this is the authentic Suzuki Roshi voice, though not a verbatim record. Please read it and listen for yourself. Turning to the fourth book, Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind. Most of you know it. Hopefully most of you, all of you, own your own copy. You can buy a copy from the Berkley Zenner Saturday store or at any of the bookstores around town. This copy is quite old. Most of you know that it is a collection of short essays. Again, recorded, transcribed and edited. The introduction is by Richard Baker Roshi, who provides a certain amount of information about the origin and development of these talks into a manuscript.

[20:29]

These were weekly talks given by Suzuki Roshi to the Los Altos Sitting Group, beginning in about 1966. That group had started in a living room and then moved to a converted garage, holding 17 seats, which happens to be the number of syllables in the Japanese poetic form called haiku. Hence it was known as haiku zendo. You can imagine a small number of people sitting there after zazen in the early morning quiet of suburbia, listening closely as Suzuki Roshi spoke briefly and informally. He said that he did so to encourage their practice and help them with their problems in practice. I'd also like to note that Suzuki Roshi gave the same kind of talks on occasion in Berkley after zazen on Monday mornings.

[21:31]

This is, of course, many years ago when Berkley Zen Center was in a rented house on Dwight Way in the late 1960s. He would come over. Is there anyone here who... You weren't around then, Alan? Yeah. I did not hear any of those. I was... Oh, I sat there too, but I didn't hear the lectures. Meili would have heard the lectures. Mel says that altogether Suzuki Roshi gave hundreds of informal talks and formal lectures during his years in America, his English getting more and more fluent and flexible as he used it. He had studied English in Japan as a young student, actually, and had actually gotten a good opportunity to practice it with a Mrs. Ransom, who he worked with in the 1920s. That information comes from David Chadwick's biography.

[22:33]

So Suzuki Roshi did not start from scratch with English when he arrived in America. The Los Altos talks were transcribed by Marion Derby, who had been there to hear them. It was her garage, actually. And they were later edited into a manuscript for publication by Trudy Dixon, who was also a student of Suzuki Roshi, as well as a poet and a colleague and friend of Richard Baker. Both Marion and Trudy worked with Suzuki Roshi on the written talks. Richard Baker polished the final manuscript and, of course, wrote the introduction. Later, when the book was published in the summer of 1970, Suzuki Roshi said, I read Zen Mind Beginner's Mind to see what the understanding of my disciples is. The book, that's what David Chadwick says,

[23:41]

this book has sold, gone through 40 printings, sold a million copies, and been translated into a dozen languages. So I think it hits the spot, hits a lot of spots. As for the wonderfully apt title, Zen Mind Beginner's Mind, in his introduction, Baker Roshi describes Zen Mind as one of those enigmatic phrases used by Zen teachers to make you notice yourself, to go beyond the words and wonder what your own mind and being are. He tells us that Beginner's Mind was a favorite expression of Dogen Zenji. Suzuki Roshi describes the meaning of the phrase Beginner's Mind in the prologue. It is an empty mind, a ready mind, open to everything. He says, in the Beginner's Mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few. Mel has characterized the message of Zen Mind Beginner's Mind as follows.

[24:48]

How to let go of our self-centeredness and settle ourselves on Big Mind. How to practice Zazen in a formal way, and how to extend and find our practice in the informality of our daily lives. Beginner's Mind refers to the unassuming attitude of just being present in each moment, accepting the non-dual reality of each moment with openness and clarity. Being careful not to fall into partiality based on opinions and false views. Being open to all possibilities. Suzuki Roshi adds, says, the goal of practice is always to keep our Beginner's Mind. Sounds simple, but not so easy to do. Let me read you something from Suzuki Roshi. On the subject of Beginner's Mind.

[25:50]

The most difficult thing is always to keep your Beginner's Mind. There is no need to have a deep understanding of Zen. Even though you read much Zen literature, you must read each sentence with a fresh mind. You should not say, I know what Zen is, or I have attained enlightenment. This is also the real secret of the arts. Always be a beginner. Be very, very careful about this point. If you start to practice Zazen, you will begin to appreciate your Beginner's Mind. It is the secret of Zen practice. You can read these talks again and again, as I have done, and be encouraged to realize your own Zen mind. Of course, reading the words, pondering the meaning, is, for this kind of literature, an activity lacking a crucial element for reaching the full significance.

[26:54]

And that element is the presence of the teacher. Baker Roshi points out, what the teacher really offers the student is literally the living proof that all this talk and these seemingly impossible goals can be realized in this lifetime. The living proof. Trudy Dixon wrote a tribute to her teacher, Suzuki Roshi, which amplifies on the notion of living proof. She wrote, Roshi is a person who has actualized that perfect freedom, which is the potentiality for all human beings. The flow of his consciousness is not the fixed repetitive patterns of our usual self-centered consciousness, but rather arises spontaneously and naturally from the actual circumstances of the present. The results of this, in terms of the quality of his life, are extraordinary.

[27:58]

Buoyancy, vigor, straightforwardness, simplicity, humility, serenity, joyousness, uncanny perspicacity, and unfathomable compassion. His whole being testifies to what it means to live in the reality of the present. Without anything said or done, just the impact of meeting a personality so developed can be enough to change another's whole life. But in the end, it is not the extraordinariness of the teacher which perplexes, intrigues, and deepens the student. It is the teacher's utter ordinariness. And I have to say, to get personal, that this point that Trudy brings forward is part of the story about how and why I became a Zen student. And the story goes like this.

[29:02]

When I first came to San Francisco, now many of you have heard this story, don't give away the ending before I get to it. When I first came to San Francisco from New York in the summer of 1970, I moved actually to Berkeley, not to San Francisco, but a friend invited me to dinner one night shortly after I had arrived. And after dinner, he suggested we go over to the Japan Trade Center. There was someone appearing at the bookstore that he had wanted to meet. So we went, and I sat down in this small crowd of people who had come to the signing of the book. And in the center was this little man in black robes sitting on a tabletop. And he began to talk in this soft and kind voice about Zazen and Zen Buddhism

[30:03]

and practice in San Francisco Zen Center as a place you could go to learn practice. And he went on and on for a little bit, five or ten minutes. I didn't get much attention, to tell you the truth. But I was very taken with him, very taken with him. So at the end of his talk, they invited questions, and a few people asked questions. I raised my hand and I said, in effect I said, I don't believe what you're saying, how can it be? Now I want you to know that I had just come from New York. And in New York I was a reporter and a writer, so I was pretty used to about science, about things scientific. So I was pretty used to being skeptical and somewhat irritating in my questions. So I asked him this question.

[31:03]

I suppose I had a certain New Yorker look on my face too at the same time. And his response was mainly to laugh in this very dear way, so that I didn't feel in any way that he was laughing at me or that I should be humiliated. But again, I was just absolutely struck and stunned by the way he was. Not so much what he said, but just by the way he was. Because all these things that Trudy Dixon, buoyancy and joyousness and immediacy and spontaneity, were there in those few moments when he looked at me and I sat and looked back at him and then heard him talk. And prior to that, I was not a Zen student, but after that moment, I became a Zen student. So I bought the book and I took it home,

[32:05]

and I even have his signature in the cover here. So this is one of the first edition, first copies, and it's very precious to me for that reason. So that's the story of how come I'm sitting here tonight. So you know, I don't have too much more to say, which is good. What time is it? Only five after eight. Okay, well, we're going to end the class early, I'd say. But I would like to do something with you. I wish there were a way to break up into groups and offer something for the groups to work on and then bring back to the center, but I couldn't really think of something that was appropriate. So what I thought I would do with your attention and cooperation is read something from the first lecture,

[33:05]

the first essay in the book, which is on posture. And maybe as I read it, you might follow what he has to say. And I want to say, too, that Sojon Roshi, Mel, often gives us Zazen instruction when we're in the zendo. And moreover, he tells us to give ourselves Zazen instruction each time we sit down. So it's in that spirit that I can end my remarks by reading you much of what Suzuki Roshi wrote about how to sit in Zazen posture. The most important thing in taking the Zazen posture is to keep your spine straight. Your ears and your shoulders should be on one line. Relax your shoulders and push up toward the ceiling with the back of your head. And pull your chin in. When your chin is tilted up,

[34:09]

you have no strength in your posture. You're probably dreaming. Also, to gain strength in your posture, press your diaphragm down toward your hara or lower abdomen. This will help you maintain your physical and mental balance. When you try to keep this posture, at first you may find some difficulty. But when you get accustomed to it, you will be able to breathe naturally and deeply. Your hands should form the cosmic mudra. If you put your left hand on top of your right hand, hold middle joints of your middle fingers together and touch your thumbs lightly together as if you held a piece of paper between them, your hands will make a beautiful oval. You should keep this universal mudra with great care, as if you were holding something very precious in your hand. Your hands should be held against your body with your thumbs at about the height of your navel.

[35:12]

Hold your arms freely and easily and slightly away from your body as if you held an egg under each arm without breaking it. You should not be tilted sideways, backward or forward. You should be sitting straight up as if you were supporting the sky with your head. This is not just form or breathing. It expresses the key point of Buddhism. It is a perfect expression of your Buddha nature. If you want true understanding of Buddhism, you should practice this way. These forms are not a means of obtaining the right state of mind. To take this posture itself is the purpose of our practice. When you have this posture, you have the right state of mind, so there is no need to try to attain any special state. When you try to attain something, your mind starts to wander about somewhere else. When you do not try to attain anything, you have your own body and mind right here.

[36:15]

A Zen master would say, kill the Buddha. Kill the Buddha if the Buddha exists somewhere else. Kill the Buddha because you should resume your own Buddha nature. Doing something is expressing our own nature. We do not exist for the sake of something else. We exist for the sake of ourselves. This is the fundamental teaching expressed in the forms we observe. Just as for sitting, when we stand in a Zen dojo, we have some rules. But the purpose of these rules is not to make everyone the same, but to allow each to express his own self most freely. For instance, each one of us has his own way of standing, so our standing posture is based on the proportion of our bodies. When you stand, your heels should be as far apart as the width of your own fist. Your big toes in line with the center of your breast. As in Zazen, put some strength in your abdomen.

[37:18]

Here also your hands should express yourself. Hold your left hand against your chest, with fingers encircling your thumb, and put your right hand over it. Holding your thumb pointing downward and your forearms parallel to the floor, you feel as if you have some round pillar in your grasp, a big round temple pillar, so you cannot be slumped or tilted to the side. The most important thing is to own your own physical body. That's the end of the excerpt, and that's the end of my talk. So I thank you for your attention, and I invite your comments, or stories, or questions, or whatever. Or not. Yes, Jason?

[38:21]

I was able to pick up crooked cucumber at a very good price recently. Oh, that's good. Are they new or used? They're the hard cover, but I think they didn't sell when they first came out, so I picked them up early. Okay, good. Did you get a chance to look at it? I haven't, no. I'm in the middle of some other stuff right now. Well, thanks for the tip. Marie? When you asked your question to Suzuki Roshi, did he answer you, or did he just laugh? He basically answered by nodding and saying, oh, yes, it is so. He didn't elaborate any. He just laughed, as I say, out loud. He chuckled, really.

[39:24]

And, oh, yes, oh, yes, it's so. I didn't ever see him again closely. I had just arrived in the Bay Area and was busy getting settled and doing work and what have you, and I lived in Berkeley. I did go to San Francisco two or three times, but I never got anywhere near him. He was always, and he was so diminutive in stature, you could hardly even see him unless you were up front. I still think it's a wonder, a real wonder, that there were so few people at the book signing that night at San Francisco's, at the Japan Trade Center. I don't know where everybody was, but I'm very grateful. And then I found out pretty early on that you could do this Zen practice in Berkeley. So I didn't have to travel to San Francisco. And I winkled out this house on Dwight Way,

[40:30]

and there was a sign there, a metal sign or a plastic sign screwed into the front porch. Music taught here? Was that it, Alan? Walter, Walter remembers, too. And it was a rented house that Mel rented and lived there. And upstairs in the attic, he had converted it into a zendo. And that's where I really began to practice with Mel. I never did see Suzuki Roshi again, but I didn't have to. He had done the thing on me. I was listening to a tape recording of Steve Weintraub's talk that he gave here, I think in March, and there was one wonderful thing. If it's right there, that very beginning, that I wouldn't mind hearing again, which is what's typical about Sazen,

[41:32]

it's not the cross-legged postures. Oh, yes. And now I can't remember what. What was that? That's right. People say that practicing Zen is difficult, but there is a misunderstanding as to why. It is not difficult because it is hard to sit in the cross-legged position or hard to attain enlightenment. Those difficulties, as I have nothing compared to this, it is difficult because it is hard to keep our mind pure and our practice pure in the fundamental sense of purity. And purity is non-dualistic thinking and acting. It's the recognition that things are not two and not one.

[42:38]

They're both two and one. So that completely counters our way of thinking and perceiving and talking and writing and understanding things. So this is the difficult part. The harmony of difference and equality, as the Sendokai poem title is translated. Does that ring the bell? Yeah. He says, for Zen students, the most important thing is not to be dualistic. Our original mind includes everything within itself. It is always rich and sufficient within itself. You should not lose your self-sufficient state of mind. This does not mean a closed mind, but actually an empty mind and a ready mind. If your mind is empty, it's always ready for anything. It is open to everything.

[43:41]

In the beginner's mind, there are many possibilities. In the expert's, there are few. If you discriminate too much, you limit yourself. If you are too demanding or too greedy, your mind is not rich and self-sufficient. When your mind becomes demanding, when you long for something, you will end up violating your own precepts. Not to tell lies, not to steal, not to kill, not to be immoral, and so forth. But if you keep your original mind, the precepts will keep themselves. Alan. Andrew's question brought to mind a discussion over breakfast. A number of us who have been leading a meditation group at the women's prison in Dublin, we were talking about what's good basic material to offer there, quickly looking for materials in Spanish.

[44:46]

And I thought, gee, maybe we could get copies of Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind in Spanish, which is available. And I was surprised when one of the people, three or four of us at the table said, who was a Zen student at Zen Center, Texas Coast, said, you know, Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind is too hard. And I just wondered if you have any response to that. I never thought of it that way. I saw what she was saying, but I'm curious what you think. Well, I think I sort of agree in this sense. I wouldn't recommend this to my brother or my niece as a first text or an introduction to Zen Buddhism or my practice. But if you

[45:48]

begin and if you have the fire in your belly, even if it's just beginning to come up, you have to have this book eventually. You have to have this book and read this book. And if you're a student of Mel, of Sojourn Roshi, I think that it would come kind of naturally that you would want to have this book and begin looking at it anyway and reading it and doing your best to follow the thinking. But absolutely, utterly cold, I think I agree that it might not suit best. Charlie? Well, years ago, I was the librarian of the Berkley Zen Center and my predecessor took me to the Book People Warehouse done by the have

[46:50]

what people want predominantly. And in their case, they specialize in spirituality, self-help, and pornography. In that order? Well, no. In any order. But this book by Suzuki Roshi is their all-time bestseller. It's not in Berkley. It's in Oakland. Yeah. We have, I think, about a dozen copies and it's almost always out there on the Saturday bookstore if anyone would like to pick up a copy here. But like I say, it's certainly readily available. Nancy? You didn't mention kind of the newest Suzuki Roshi book which is David Chadwick's compilation of stories.

[47:53]

Oh, yeah. Called To Shine in One Corner, something like that? To Shine in One Corner of the World. And it's literally a few lines on a page. So it's these very short stories and the stories that he collected in the course of putting together the biography. And I read those over and over because they're just snippets of, it's usually a student said or something happened and Suzuki Roshi said. And they're wonderful stories. They are. I kind of thought it was a little bit of a rip-off. David Chadwick talked about it at Black Oak and he said he could read the whole book to us in the time he had to speak. So instead he did outtakes. Yeah. I mean, it's $26 and it's like from the cutting room floor is what I felt. I mean, it's very nice. It's a coffee table or a bedside table book and I agree with you, you know. I just felt it was a little

[48:53]

precious. Sue? Yeah. Dolly, thank you. I feel like I'm in the presence of a real gift that you've given us and I think I don't even know what to say about it but hearing the presence of this man brought forward it was important to me. I thank you. I've read those books and but having this in this space was really a wonderful thing and I very much thank you for creating putting this together and creating that and it's so much through you and it's so much you

[49:54]

thank you for doing this. And I want to ask you to say more because I think it went by me I must have wandered in my Zen mind here but the comment that he made I think in Shadwick's book about precepts and morality was something about not killing and I missed that. Well, you know, I wanted to cite that story however briefly in some part because of the situation that we find ourselves in now in this country and which the whole world we've propelled by the force of our power the whole world to be concerned about

[50:54]

terrorism and war which our president has said we're in a war and I think as Alan said people are still feel pretty raw about it and jumpy and not at all settled in their mind or in their hearts about what's the best way to proceed or how shall we do so I thought it was important to look up what Suzuki Roshi did during those years in the thirties and forties in Japan which was a far more closed society than the society we live in I mean it was really a completely different world it isn't comparable to what we're feeling but there's some resonance there also I was a girl in World War II and a very patriotic person we had flags

[51:59]

and I brought stamps that you put in the book ten cents and you've got 1875 and you've got a $25 war bond etc. we did that at school and we crushed tin cans and saved tin foil Lucky Strike Green went to war all those things were part of my girlhood so I was interested personally in what Suzuki Roshi did during the war when he was not Suzuki Roshi he was Shunryo Suzuki sensei a teacher a priest the head of a small temple in Japan so I was interested very deeply interested in reading what David could tell me about it and it isn't a lot but what he did what Suzuki Roshi did in those years he would have been in his thirties

[52:59]

early thirties very much of draft age and in fact Buddhist priests were being drafted into the Japanese military forces and many Buddhist priests were propagandists for the imperial state as was the headquarters in the upper echelon of Buddhist priests this I read elsewhere not in David's book but what David told me was what Suzuki Roshi did he was not drafted though he was very eligible because he had what he Suzuki Roshi called unusual ideas they were not what we would call you know war resisting but for his time and his place he risked his neck he was

[53:59]

not outspoken on a soapbox down in the village square but in his own temple he called people together in small groups people he knew largely local people almost all of them educated people of one sort or another and what he wanted to do was try to foster a balanced view not to stop the war or rant against the government or argue with those who were pro war or pro imperial Japan he just wanted to get people to see the other side and above all as David said he wanted to talk about how much more Japan could accomplish if there were peace and later Suzuki Roshi himself said at this time even before the war I had strong feelings against war my focus was not so much

[55:00]

on preventing the war as on trying to counter one-sided views of Japan's situation of ourselves and of human nature so again that's not that's not a real strong pacifist position but he never took strong one-sided positions again you have to say yes but but that was his teaching whenever you come down strong and hard on something probably not always so and David Chadwick himself pointed out and I and I read to you that Suzuki Roshi during those years never overtly invoked the precept against killing to advocate an end to the war on moral grounds he may

[56:01]

have done so in some context where it was not a public statement in his own mind or in his own family or in his very close circle David never discovered that so David reports to us the readers that Suzuki Roshi never overtly invoked the precept against killing during these years of World War II the other thing he did was he made the temple a refuge and took in children some Korean prisoners of war actually yeah that also yeah I mean the temple was just packed with people and it was it's if you've been there it's the town Yazoo is sort of between two pretty large cities and it's right on the coast kind of

[57:02]

the area where the bombers would be going yeah he also David also tells the story of they the temple was obliged to give up the bell for the war effort they were at that point in Japanese society they were you know collecting metal to be melted down for use and again at the time I think he was not called Suzuki Roshi he was still a young Japanese temple priest but he had to follow those orders he helped his sanga take down the bell and secure it to a rope there's even a photograph in David's book that was made at the

[58:03]

time I think this was in the early or the mid 1940s midpoint of the war and they secured it by big thick ropes to be carried down to the dock to be transported away brought to the factory where it would be melted down he did that he helped organize the group and get the bell in place although he regretted it very deeply and he would not go down he would not accompany the bell all the way to the waterfront where it would then leave and go off and be melted instead David says he simply went into his room and closed the door but he didn't say you can't have my bell he did what he had to do yes what did you say I said the expressions on their faces I don't know if you can tell in there but I have a copy of that photograph it was not

[59:04]

a happy day not a happy day when the bell had to be melted down to make bullets Sammy did you say that Tassajara and San Francisco were established at the same time well virtually I mean you know Suzuli Hiroshi was alive in this country for 12 years only they purchased the Tassajara property before they found the Page Street property but I think just a matter of 18 months or two years you remember Walter yeah a short period of time there was this great and there was a great public subscription to make it happen and people

[60:04]

came forth and laid down their their dollars to make it happen to purchase the property both both properties no Tassajara was first and then Zen Center yeah in San Francisco yes well I can't say right after I don't recall all that well it was 31 years ago but I had just moved to California from New York and I lived in Berkeley and I had the book which I carried home with me that night and I was getting settled and continuing my work which took me out of town quite a bit so I didn't you know throw myself into it as many people were

[61:05]

wont to do but I did pursue it and went to the city a few times and then found out that I could I could find what I was looking for here in Berkeley that's right I had read Ellen Watts of course and a few other books of the time I was aware of the interest in alternate some alternative to my Catholic upbringing but it wasn't until I met Suzuki Roshi actually was I moved literally to do something to follow up with

[62:11]

what I was but I was interested in the people were interested in and think that the question has to do with the relationship between practice and one's personal life and how that unfolds and one of the stories is about how he accepted a man into the temple compound to work who was not very well balanced and who killed his wife the gruesome murder and how what we know about how he thought about that or what about that those two things held together the acceptance and the murder together sort of on the same page I guess I thought about that and together with the later story about his second wife

[63:13]

laughing and saying he was a great teacher and a bad husband and how you know this person who had this wonderful presence had also this other aspect and I guess something of a troubled relationship with his son which is hinted at in the Incrooked Keeper and I wonder how the picture all goes together well I I I did not have the uh the personal acquaintance of working with him and being with him and I can't respond to your to your question or the implication there I I think he was you know especially in his

[64:13]

early years perhaps um a fairly ordinary and typical man of his time and um I don't know I didn't know myself when I first read it what to make of his somehow his judgment in allowing this deranged and potentially violent person into his household and the great tragedy the catastrophe that resulted or that came about it didn't result from his action but it came about and um as for what his wife said I think um she's she was pretty playful I think and I think that was I think I kind of took that as a playful remark there are many stories of particularly

[65:14]

that Mel tells and you can also find in David's book of when they were down in particular she and as for his relations with his son I again I don't know I think that I think

[66:16]

that maybe at one time his son was a rival to his father but I don't think that persisted completely but according to his reputation he had Suzuki Roshi had a big temper and he when he blew up he really blew in a big way and his son remembers that I think Alan you know who he perhaps you could say some words about that well what I remember really vividly a few years ago there was a Suzuki Roshi conference I think Nancy was there was that at Stanford yeah it was the Sate Center for Buddhist Studies yeah and at the kind of

[67:18]

the end of the conference I believe the last presenter was at the end he got very quiet and he told the story if I remember incorrectly he told the story of his mother's murder and of his father coming to him just you know stricken and I think

[68:19]

it was really like the first time that he ever perceived his father as vulnerable and that kind of all the veils between them were dropped and I don't think they never came up again that same way but it was it was a difficult relationship and the other part that I think you did mention is that there was this mentally disturbed daughter who was just kind of put away but that's you know it's terrible but that's kind of what was done and as you say in a certain way Suzuki was just a Japanese priest of his time maybe he had some odd thoughts and it didn't really all flower until he came here. Yes. Also at that conference if I may these are his second and third wives that we're talking about now his first wife had tuberculosis and was put

[69:20]

away because that was not appropriate for a temple wife and I remember Kuetsu's talk that he began by saying this was after two days of people telling Suzuki Roshi's stories basically and Kuetsu began by saying the man you're talking about is not the man you're about and I remember Mel getting up and saying you know he wasn't a saint we're not here to canonize him so he was human. Very ordinary that's what Trudy Dickson also said after that long list of fulsome praises Thank you for your attention

[70:16]

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