uncontrollable thoughts of greed, hate and delusion. And he thought this was the most marvelous and amazing thing that had ever happened and he ran back to the Buddha to tell him that that's what happened. And the Buddha took the opportunity to speak to Maitreya about what things are necessary to make the heart's release, the way it's translated here, the heart's release meaning the goal of the path, peace, nirvana, what things are needed to make the heart's release possible. That it's not just a matter of rushing out to some good spot and meditating, but there are also other things that need to be cultivated and among these, the chief among them is, as this translation says, a beautiful relationship, a lovely intimacy, a Dharma friend. And the point being that the Buddha, you know, was saying to Maitreya, don't go and meditate, stay with me.

[01:10]

In other words, the Buddha was offering Maitreya a Dharma friendship and Maitreya was seeing that that Dharma friendship is the basis for meditation practice. So the Buddha said there are five things that conduce to the heart's release, make the heart's release, mature the heart's release when it is immature. And these five things are, first of all, a lovely relationship, a lovely intimacy in the Dharma. Secondly, speech that is serious and suitable for opening up the heart and that doesn't encourage our delusions and our confusions. Sorry, that's the third one. The second one is virtuous conduct, right conduct. The third one is this kind of speech. The fourth one is energy and diligence in abandoning what's unprofitable.

[02:16]

And the fifth one is insight into impermanence. These are the five things that are needed to make the heart's release mature when it is immature. And this he tells as a personal teaching to Mugia. All this I think we... I'm just repeating, right? The gist of what we spoke about last time, right? Didn't we do all that last time? So now we're just at the end here where he says, having developed these five things, there will be four additional benefits, four additional things will come from this. And also he says, before he says that, he says that these five things, each one builds on the next. In other words, because we have a lovely relationship in our lives, in the Dharma, we will develop virtuous conduct

[03:21]

on the basis of that relationship. It will inspire us. That relationship will inspire us and encourage us to develop virtuous conduct. When we have virtuous conduct, naturally our speech will be different. We won't be gossiping and speaking about things that would be unprofitable and harmful. We'll naturally be speaking and therefore conditioning our minds toward things that are profitable spiritually. And then when we then have this lovely friendship, virtuous conduct, and this kind of wholesome speech, naturally this will encourage us to be diligent in our practice, including in our meditation practice. And then when we have all that behind us, then when we sit on the cushion, instead of being like Magee with our minds totally confused, we'll sit on the cushion and we'll be able to have real insight into the impermanent nature of things. And when we have that insight into the impermanent nature of things, then we will really be able to release ourselves from being in bondage to our own confused thoughts and feelings, and we'll really be able to have some freedom, some spaciousness inside.

[04:38]

But it takes all of that. It's not just run out and meditate, and that's all. As I was saying, I think last time in Zen, We do say, just meditate. That's all you need to do. But it's really a trick. It's actually a trick. We realize that if you actually do practice meditation, and you stay with the meditation, then all these other things will develop out of it, just in the same way that the Buddha is speaking of here. But Zen just trusts the meditation practice itself. to guide us along the way of developing all these things. But just the same way, in Zen, if we only do the meditation practice without, eventually, in a natural way, just by virtue of doing the meditation, developing dharma relationships, virtuous conduct, and right speech, and so on and so forth, then, in the end, probably, we'll give up the practice, by and by, because it won't help us much, it won't mean much to us in our lives. So the method is a little bit different in terms of where it begins, but not really so different.

[05:48]

Anyway, once all this is developed, four other things are to be made to grow. This is in the last page. Moreover, Meghia, by the monk who is established in these five conditions, four other things are to be made to grow. And here they are. First, the idea of the unlovely is to be made to grow for the abandoning of lust. Now, as we've said many times, we have to kind of overcome sometimes some misleading translation. The idea is that recognizing the real, the impermanent nature and the imperfect nature of things, we will not be so attached to them. We'll give up strong attachment and we'll be free of our attachments when we recognize the real nature of things.

[06:55]

For example, when it comes to the body, we recognize the body's beauty, But we don't recognize the body's corruption as flesh. The body is that which can decay, that which can become stinky and smelly, etc., etc. Like when you look at someone's body, you think that's the person's body, but you don't think also that's just the outside of their body. Also, there's intestines and lung and spleen and all kinds of fluids. You know, if you got inside of somebody's body, it would be a very different story. It would be not nearly as pleasant as even the most unattractive person is on the outside. And in reality, that is what the body is. This is not something that we're making up. In fact, the body is those things. And when we see the totality of the body, we won't be as attached to the body as a sensuous object.

[08:02]

Therefore, we'll be seeing things as they really are in there, from all angles and all sides, we'll have less attachment and more of a sense of equanimity with things. So that's the first thing that will happen to us, that will grow in us when we complete these five practices. The second thing is amity is to be made to grow for the abandoning of malice. So friendship and the recognition of all kinds of aversion and malice as being not only unprofitable but also having no basis in reality. Reality affords us nothing whatsoever that we could actually hate. Recognizing impermanence, we realize that there is nothing to hate and the result of that is a kind of generalized sense of friendliness that will arise and will let go of malice. Third one is mindfulness of breathing. Mindfulness of breathing.

[09:05]

Did you know mindfulness of breathing is the, in the classical list of 40 Buddhist meditation objects that the Vasuddhi Magga lists, each one having a particular application of the 40. The one that's best for combating excessive discursive thought is mindfulness of breathing. And one of my theories is that mindfulness of breathing in the modern era is the best practice because in our day and age everybody is excessively given to discursive thinking because of the excess of stimulation. You know, everybody's got so much input all the time from the news and just the sensory input of living in a place like Berkeley where there's cars and traffic and signs flashing at you. the internet and all of this, there's a huge amount of sensory input. It's the input that causes the mind to have so many things to think about that the mind is constantly going.

[10:12]

So that's why mindfulness of in-breathing and out-breathing is such a wonderful practice for our time. But you will develop that as a consequence of all these other five things, he says. And then you will have some real ability to slow down your mind whenever you need to do that. You have presence of mind. Your mind won't be overcome with raging thoughts the way Magia's was, you know, when he sat down in the forest. So that's the third one. The fourth one is the consciousness of impermanence is to be made to grow for the uprooting of the pride of egotism. In him, Magia, who is conscious of impermanence, the consciousness of what is not the self is established. He who is conscious of what is not the self wins the uprooting of the pride of egotism in this very life, namely he wins nirvana. So that's the end result of the path is peace, release, freedom and here in this particular case that is

[11:24]

that piece is connected to a real understanding of who and what one is rather than creating, as we do, so habitually an object. The same way we look at an object in the room, the altar, the bell, another person who we see as an object. We also see ourselves as an object, you know, me. Even though we think of ourselves as a subject, actually we objectify ourselves and therefore attach to that object which we think of as ourselves. And this is really the cause of our suffering, is a misknowledge of what we really are. Not seeing that what we really are is a particular arising and passing away that's continuous.

[12:26]

In other words, a process, a phenomena arising and passing away, which is really what all of us are. Thoughts, feelings, actions, reactions, causes, conditions, coming and going in an endless stream, with nothing in that endless stream to be You know, that's all this stuff is stuck to. There's nothing that it's stuck to that's just going. So when we realize that this is the nature of ourself, then what is there to be upset about? What is there to be mad about? What is there to be angry about or to judge as being unworthy or not good enough or better than somebody else? It's all nonsense. Most of the things that we think about ourselves just don't fit the case. When we realize the actual nature of ourselves through the deep appreciation of the impermanent nature of all that arises, including the body, including the thoughts and consciousness all together, realizing that the impermanent nature of all that, the fact that it's all a flow and a process, then we completely let go and

[13:48]

there's peace, nirvana. So, that's what, those are the four things that come as a consequence of developing the other five. You notice that the impermanence, insight into impermanence is repeated in both cases. You know, it's the fifth, the insight into impermanence is the conclusion to the other five, and then again it's mentioned as the conclusion to these, the second set of four. And often you see that in Buddhist lists, you know, where the same item is repeated in a second list that sort of is hooked onto the first list. And that's because there are, you know, many degrees of the recognition of impermanence. I mean, everyone here has a realization of impermanence because if we asked anybody whether, you know, things are permanent or impermanent, we would all answer that everything's impermanent because we all know that. And we don't even have to be Buddhists or do Zazen to know that.

[14:51]

If you ask any person, like the guy in the paper, you know, the question man, the question man, were to ask several random people in the Bay Area, do you think that, you know, life is permanent or is life impermanent. They would all answer that things are impermanent. Everything is impermanent. They would all answer that way. So they have some degree of insight. Everybody does into impermanence. But there are possibilities for a deeper and stronger, more experiential insight into impermanence. So at the end of the first list, there is a deep and important insight into impermanence that can be still deeper with when the second list is developed and comes into play. And finally, all the way up to a kind of ultimate point of release and peacefulness. Then at the end, as often happens in some of the collections of the Pali Canon, the Buddha writes a spontaneous poem for Maitreya

[15:53]

I think in the version that you have, maybe I rewrote this poem because it's such a clunky poem. So I improved it, I think. But I don't have that version. Maybe you have it. Anyway, here it says, you have both of them. The person who did this was kind enough to do the version that you have. I didn't know that he was going to put that in there. It was just one of those like yellow stickums that I had on my own copy. And he somehow decided that he would type that into the text. So it's a little bit presumptuous, but there you go. Anyway, the gist of the poem, I think it's nice, you know, that kind of a nice touch to me that the Buddha would, you know, the gist of the sort of the narrative line of the story here is that The Buddha is very polite and kind and patient, waits for someone, as in this case, Meghia, to be ripe to hear the teaching that they themselves very particularly need to hear.

[17:00]

He waits for that moment. gives them the teaching that they need to hear and then at the end he caps it off with a little poem. I think that's nice. Wouldn't you like that if somebody gave you a little advice and then at the end they kind of like wrote a little poem for you at the end, summing up, you know, the advice and then you could remember the poem and then, you know, just that four little line poem and then you would always be able to recall the wonderful teaching that they had given you. So this little poem is, in this version, thoughts trite and subtle taking shape cause mind to be elated We think of elated as, you know, a good idea. We would all like to be elated all the time, but here, elated, I think, is taken as a negative thing. It's too excited, you know, a little bit like nervously, anxiously excited. Human beings, ignorant of these things, with whirling brains, strays to and fro, kind of like Mageeah was straying to and fro, but knowing them, meaning them, meaning the thoughts, ardent and mindful, checks these thoughts of mind. When mind's elation does not come to pass, the enlightened sage abandons utterly these thoughts of mind, that none remain.

[18:09]

And I would say, maybe not so much, you might not say abandon the thoughts, as if this is going to give the impression that your goal is to have a blank mind. It's not so much that your mind is blank, abandoning thoughts, but only abandoning thoughts in the sense of abandoning attachment to and confusion, stickiness with thoughts. Because it's pretty clear from reading the Buddhist texts that the Buddha did not consider a thought in and of itself to be something wrong, some problem with a thought in and of itself, any more than there's a problem with a cloud or a tree. In fact, a thought, a cloud, a tree, any object of the six senses in and of itself is just another thing coming and going. It's when you stick to it and when you try to make it deliver to you something that it is not ever going to deliver to you and then you become frustrated because of that. That's where our problem starts.

[19:10]

So we have an unwise relationship to our thoughts. In this case, with practice, when the mind is peaceful and quiet, and impermanence is seen, thoughts just come and go, and they're not really a problem. In fact, one needs them from time to time, don't you think? Yeah. Better think once in a while. Otherwise, it could be a problem. So, that's the end of the Magya Sutta. And I wonder if comments, queries, thoughts about this before we go on to the next one. Just an announcement, there are two new sutures, Xerox for this evening, and if you haven't gotten them, I have them up here. Also, if you haven't paid, either for the series or by the individual lecture, there's a basket here for your convenience.

[20:15]

That was very delicately put. Wonderful. So I thought next, does everybody have a copy of the Sutra on the Parable of the Saw? I guess the idea is if you don't have a copy, Charlie's got one for you. I may have changed, you know, things somewhere midstream, so I'm sorry about the confusion, but... Yes? Is that similar to the one of the snake? No, it's a different one entirely. We don't have the parable of the saw.

[21:20]

We were given a simile of a snake and mala sutra. Oh. So what you're passing out now is the snake, not the saw? That's right. Those are the two that you requested. Oh, maybe I made a mistake. Because I intended to do the saw, not the snake. You've just been sent to take care of the saw. That's on the original list. Oh. Yeah. I apologize for that. So what you've got there is the snake. That's what you've got. Yeah, and in Gulimala. Let's see, do I have the snake one here? I studied the one on the saw. Well, we could do that. I'm just seeing if I have the sutra on the snake in here.

[22:30]

I think that's the one that precedes. I would like to do that, actually, since it's such a wonderful sutra. Even though you don't have a copy of it, I'm going to do it anyway because I can read it for you. So you can all just relax, like, and pretend it's a bedtime story. And I apologize for the mix-up. I don't know what I was thinking. Sutra on the Parable of the Saw, or simile of the Saw, I should say. Thus have I heard, on one occasion the Blessed One was living at Savati in Jaita's Grove, Anathapindika's Park. Now on that occasion, the Venerable Moliya Phaguna was associating overmuch with Bhikkhunis.

[23:31]

So Moliya Phaguna is a monk and a bhikkhuni is a nun. So Moliya Phaguna was associating overmuch with bhikkhunis. Now, as you'll see in a moment, this does not mean that he was flirting with them or doing anything that was not proper. It really means something else. His relationship to them was not quite right, but not in the way that one might think. You'll hear in a minute. He was associating so much with bhikkhunis that if any bhikkhu, which is a male monastic, if any bhikkhu spoke dispraise of those bhikkhunis in his presence, he would become angry and displeased and would rebuke him. And if any bhikkhu spoke dispraise of the venerable Moliya Phaguna in those bhikkhunis' presence, They would become angry and displeased and would rebuke him.

[24:38]

So much was the venerable Molia Faguna associating with Bikunis. So this is the idea that he had a very special relationship with, I suppose it means, a particular community of Bikunis. He really liked them and they really liked him. They were pals. So much so, as one often sees in life, you know, you have a pal and, you know, you're buddies together and if anybody says anything about your friend, you really, you know, come down on them and vice versa. Because you're very close and in a sense, create your own little world as opposed to those who are, a lot of times this happens with married couples, right? I often say to my wife, you know, fortunately, you and I are the only ones who really, you know, know what's going on. Fortunately, we're married to each other and we we can reinforce this one true view in the universe. So this is how Molia, Faguna and the Bhikkhunis relate to each other and the sutra says this is what's called associating over much.

[25:49]

When a certain Bhikkhu went to the Blessed One, meaning the Buddha, and after paying homage to him, he sat down at one side and told the Blessed One what was taking place, about how Moli of Faguna was over much associating with the Bhikkhunis. Now, this is interesting because, you know, in the Mahayana Sutras, I happen to be also at the same time studying the Lotus Sutra, and it's a far cry from this. The Buddha would never have to be told what someone is thinking. In the Lotus Sutra, the Buddha already knows what everybody's thinking at all times. But in this Sutra, it is the case that although there are moments in the Pali Sutras where the Buddha displays various sorts of powers, most of the time the Buddha is viewed as a human being who finds out what other people are doing because someone comes and tells him. And that's what happens, someone tells him. about this situation with Mulya Faguna. So what does he do about it? This is very instructive about how the Buddha would operate.

[26:55]

What did he do when some putty came and sort of snitched on a fellow bhikkhu? Although in this case, you know, with a good generous spirit, let's imagine that this was not a case of snitching, you know, that nasty Maitreya, we're going to tell the Buddha on him. But more like we're all in this together, we're all trying to help each other achieve freedom from our own delusions and confusions. And so I noticed that this is a place where Maitreya Fuguna needs some work. So maybe the Buddha has a good idea how to help him. let's say that that was the spirit with which this comment came to the Buddha. So the Buddha heard it and then he said to that the same monk who had brought the issue to him, come Bhikkhu, tell the Bhikkhu Molyavaguna in my name that the teacher calls him. Have him come over, let's investigate. Yes, venerable sir, he replied and he went to the venerable Molyavaguna and he told him

[27:59]

The teacher calls you friend Faguna. That's nice. Friend Faguna, he calls him. Maybe he really means it. Yes, friend, he replied. And he went to the Blessed One, and after paying homage to him, sat down at one side, and then the Buddha asked him, Faguna, is it true that you are associating overmuch with the Bhikkhunis? It is, I often catch myself, you know, when someone tells me something, I often have to remind myself, oh, they're telling me what they think, not necessarily facts. Even though they may certainly believe that it's a fact, we all are only seeing, you know, as far as we can see. So especially if someone tells you what somebody else is doing, you know, about two or about someone else, you always have to remember, oh, that's just what they think.

[29:01]

Not that they're being malicious, but that just, they can only see what they can see. So the Buddha never took anybody's word for anything, he would always ask. And he asked with the assumption that he'll find out from the person directly, that they'll tell him the truth. Or if they don't, it'll be pretty clear. So he asks, is it true that you are associating so much with the bhikkhunis that if any bhikkhu speaks dispraise of those bhikkhunis in your presence, you become angry and displeased and rebuke him? And if any bhikkhu speaks dispraise of you in those bhikkhunis' presence, they become angry and displeased and rebuke him? Are you associating so much with bhikkhunis as it seems? Is that all true? And Rulia Faguna right away says, yes, yes, that's right. So the Buddha says, Faguna, are you not a clansman who has gone forth out of faith from the home life into homelessness? In other words, haven't you made this big commitment to leave behind... Here the home life really means not so much the home life per se, but it means attachment, non-spiritual endeavor.

[30:19]

That's what the home life means, and the reverse of the home life, the homeless life means freedom in the path. So haven't you made this enormous commitment to devote your life to freedom in the spiritual path? And of course, Faguna says, yes I have, that's right. And then he says, the Buddha says, then Faguna, it is not proper for you who has made this tremendous commitment to associate overmuch with bhikkhunis. Therefore, if anyone speaks dispraise of those bhikkhunis in your presence, you should abandon any desires and any thoughts based on the household life. In other words, any thoughts of attachment and non-freedom, you should you should abandon any such thoughts when someone speaks dispraise of those bhikkhunis.

[31:28]

And instead of that, in other words, you have been having those thoughts. That's what causes you to get defensive whenever someone complains about them. That's attachment, Moliya Phaguna. You really have to pay attention to that. And instead of that, You should train in the following way. And then the Buddha says, train like this, my mind will be unaffected and I shall utter no evil words. I shall abide compassionate for his welfare with a mind of loving kindness without inner hate. That is how you should train, Faguna. In other words, Do you see what's happening here? When someone is complaining about those nuns, your attachment to the nuns is so strong that you have, because of that attachment, aversion to the person who's speaking and you're complaining and rebuking that person.

[32:33]

You should know that that action comes from your attachment. That's really not in line with your goal as a home leaver. So instead of that, you should notice that that's what's happening. And instead of that, replace that thought somehow with a thought of compassion and loving kindness for the person who's making that comment. And commit yourself to not speaking rebuke against that person. You may ask, how would you do that? train your mind in that way. And that is one of the most important things really about the Buddhist path is the possibility that thought, attitude and feeling changes and can be shaped according to cultivation and intention. If that's not true then what's the point?

[33:40]

We all think of our thought as sort of automatically arising. This is how I just, this is how I think. I can't help it. But actually over time we can help it. We can think differently as a result of our cultivation and practice. So he's actually asking Faguna to first of all note that this kind of response that you have habitually had is a problem. Faguna apparently didn't know that before. Now, whenever it comes up, note it as attachment and then mindfully memorize this phrase and repeat it to yourself when you note that kind of attachment and try to be calm and try to breathe and try to notice and then try to actually cultivate this affirmative attitude of kindness, compassion and non-blame. Then he says, if anybody gives, even if they would hit the bhikkhuni with their hand, a blow with their hand, if somebody should do that, or with a clod or a stick or even with a knife in your presence, you should abandon any thought based on attachment and the household life and train your mind in the same way.

[35:07]

If anyone speaks dispraise in your presence, you should abandon any desires and thoughts based on the household life and train the mind in the same way. If anyone should give you a blow with his hand, a clod, a stick or a knife, you should abandon any desires and any thoughts based on the household life and train your mind in the same way. And it's repeated every time, the same formula. My mind will be unaffected and I shall utter no evil words. I shall abide compassionate for his welfare with a mind of loving kindness without inner hate. that formula is repeated each time. In other words, even if, you know, all these things happen, which would give rise to your attachment and complaining, let go and practice kindness. Then the Blessed One addressed all the assembled bhikkhus and said to them, because as is always the case, one person's problem is not just one person's problem.

[36:10]

Molya Phaguna here is the one who's being pointed out, but the Buddha assumes, and I think it's a pretty safe assumption, that Molya Phaguna is not the only one in the assembly who has these thoughts of attachment. We all have them. That's why the sutra was written down, because Molya Phaguna is not unique. We all have the same issues. So the Buddha then says to all the bhikkhus, there was an occasion when the bhikkhus satisfied my mind. In other words, when they really made me happy, when I really felt like they were doing the right thing. When was that? That was when I addressed the bhikkhus in this way. I said to them, bhikkhus, I eat at a single session, once a day. I only eat one meal a day. By doing so, I am free from illness and affliction, and I enjoy health, strength, and a comfortable abiding." Why don't you do that too? If you do that, you too will be free from illness, affliction, and you will enjoy health, strength, and a comfortable abiding.

[37:20]

I said that once to the bhikkhus, and I had no need to say it any more than once. All I had to do caused mindfulness to arise in them about this idea of having one meal, pointed out to them, showed them how it was a good thing to do and they did it. I didn't have to browbeat them or complain endlessly or, you know, like call the police or anything. I just suggested this and they did it. Suppose there were a chariot or even a chariot on even ground at the crossroads, harnessed to thoroughbred horses. waiting with the goad lying ready so that a skilled trainer, a charioteer of horses to be tamed, might mount it, the chariot, and taking the reins in his left hand and the goad in his right hand, might drive out and back by any road whenever he likes. So too, in other words, without even having to whip them or do anything, just get in the chariot, they go.

[38:22]

You don't have to, you know, beat them up with a whip, they just go. So too, I had no need to keep on instructing those because I had only to arise mindfulness in them. So, similarly, I hope, you know, Moli or Faguna and all of you get the point. Now that you understand this, you don't have to be told a million times. You'll just be able to do this. I hope so. Just like that. Therefore, bhikkhus, abandon what is unwholesome and devote yourself to wholesome states, for that is how you will come to growth, increase, and fulfillment in this dharma and discipline. Abandon what is unwholesome, like these attachments to the nuns, and devote yourself to what is wholesome, like loving-kindness and equanimity in relation to even people who are speaking against your friend, And when you do that, you'll come to growth, increase and fulfillment in the Dharma.

[39:25]

Then he gives him a metaphor. Suppose, he already gave one about the thoroughbred horses, now he gives them another one. Suppose there was a solid tree grove near a village or town, and it was choked with castor oil weeds. It must have been very hard to figure out, you know, that this Pali word means castor oil weeds. Which I have no idea what a castor oil weed is, but it sounds interesting. They grow around here. Do they? Yeah. Castor beans. Castor beans. No. You'll have to show me one. I don't know it. Anyway, these weeds apparently are bad for the trees. You know, they sort of choke out the trees. And some people would come and desire the tree's welfare and protection. And so he would cut down and throw out the crooked castor oil, the crooked saplings, not the castor oil weeds, I guess, but the crooked saplings that robbed the sap.

[40:38]

And he would clean up the interior of the grove and tend the straight, well-formed saplings so that the silo tree grove later on would come to growth, increase, and fulfillment. Sattvabhikus, abandon what is unwholesome and devote yourself to wholesome states. For that is how you will come to growth in the Dharma. Now, the Buddha tells a story about the issue here is in general abandoning what is unwholesome and increasing what is wholesome. But very specifically the Buddha is talking about in relation to getting a little angry or miffed at people who are giving you a hard time. When you find yourself miffed that somebody is giving you a hard time, you need to notice that that really is because of attachment and cultivate

[41:43]

equanimity and loving-kindness. Now he's going to tell a story about somebody who was challenged in this way. Once upon a time, in this very town where we are now, Savati, there was a housewife named Madhika. Madhika. Now people thought of her as being a very kind and gentle and peaceful person, and indeed she seemed to be. Now this mistress, Vidika, had a maid named Kali, who was clever, nimble, and neat in her work. And the maid, Kali, thought to herself, everybody says about my mistress, Vidika, that she's kind, gentle, peaceful. I wonder, I mean it's true that she never seems to be angry, but I wonder

[42:44]

if that's because she really isn't angry or that there is anger in her but she just doesn't show it. Maybe she's just happy because I'm such a good worker and I never do anything to displease her. Suppose I test my lady. So, the maid Kali got up late one day and the mistress Videka said, Hey Kali! What is it, madam? What is the matter that you got up so late? Nothing is the matter, madam. Nothing is the matter, you wicked girl! Yet you got up so late? And she was angry and displeased and she scowled. Then the maid Kali thought, The fact is that while my lady does not show anger, it is actually present in her, not absent.

[43:50]

And it is just because my work is neat that my lady shows no anger, though it is actually present in her, not absent. Suppose I test my lady a little more. The Buddha is not without a certain sense of humor here as he tells the story. to Malaya Faguna, who has the same problem, but hasn't yet faced this kind of challenge. So what happens now? The maid Kali got up even later in the day. Then mistress Vidika said, Hey Kali, what is it madam? What is the matter that you got up later in the day? Nothing is the matter madam. Nothing is the matter you wicked girl, yet you get up later in the day? And she was angry and displeased and she spoke words of displeasure. Then the maid Kali thought, the fact is that while my lady does not show anger, it is actually present in her, not absent. Suppose I test my lady a little more.

[44:53]

And of course, she got up still later in the day and the same dialogue ensued, only this time, was angry and displeased, and she took up a rolling pin and gave her a blow on the head and cut her head. So, then the maid Kali, with blood running from her cut head, denounced her mistress to the neighbors. See, ladies, the kind ladies work? See, lady, the gentle ladies work? See, ladies, the peaceful ladies work? How can she become angry and displeased with her only maid for getting up late? How can she take a rolling pin, give her a blow on the head and cut her head? Then later a bad report about Mistress Vidika spread thus, Mistress Vidika is rough, Mistress Vidika is violent, Mistress Vidika is merciless. So of course we might, hearing this story, think what a rotten maid, nasty, poor mistress, who wouldn't be angry over this kind of thing?

[46:13]

But the Buddha is presenting this not as the maid is the villain of the story, but actually the maid is brings out the truth. The maid is a good teacher here for Vika. And the reason why that is, is because the Buddha's entire focus is not on, you know, in a situation like that, is not on, you know, whether or not the maid's behavior is good behavior or not, just behavior. positive conditions. As soon as conditions went a little south, right away she was angry. So, in that sense, the maid actually was a very good teacher for Vidika. So, the Buddha now draws the moral of the story here. Sotu bhikkhus. Some bhikkhu is extremely kind, extremely gentle, extremely peaceful, so long as disagreeable courses of speech do not touch him.

[47:20]

But it is when disagreeable courses of speech touch him that it can be understood whether that bhikkhu is really kind, gentle, and peaceful. It's no trick to be a nice guy when everybody's nice to you. You know, that's why dharma teachers, usually everybody's very nice to them. So, no wonder they're very nice people, you know, no problem. It's easy to be nice when everybody's nice to you, right? That's no big deal. But what about when people are rotten to you? How do you behave then? That's the question. If you depend on these very nice conditions to be kind and nice, then I'm not so sure how kind and nice you actually are. I do not call a bhikkhu easy to admonish who is easy to admonish and makes himself easy to admonish only for the sake of getting robes, alms food, a resting place and medicine. Why is that? Because a bhikkhu is not easy to admonish nor makes himself easy to admonish when he gets no robes, alms food, resting place and medicine.

[48:30]

Munibhika was easy to admonish and makes himself easy to admonish because he honors, respects and reveres the Dharma. Him I call really easy to admonish. Now, there are five ways that someone can speak to you. They can address you in a timely manner or an untimely manner. You know, saying something to somebody, you can say it at the right moment or the wrong moment. They can say something that's true or not true. They can say something in a gentle way or in a harsh way. They can say something with the intention of doing you good or doing you harm. They can say something with loving kindness or with hatred. Whatever they say, in whatever way they say it, you should train your mind this way.

[49:44]

Our minds will remain unaffected and we shall utter no evil words. We shall abide compassionate for their welfare with a mind of loving kindness without inner hate. We shall abide pervading that person with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, and starting with him, we shall abide pervading the all-encompassing world with a mind imbued with loving-kindness, abundant, exalted, immeasurable, without hostility and without ill-will. Thus you should train, because no matter how anyone speaks to you, I'm going to press onward for a few more minutes and then we'll take a break and discuss because I think that I'll easily get through this. Then the Buddha makes the same point with some metaphors. Suppose somebody came along with a hoe and a basket and said, I shall make this great earth to be without earth.

[50:50]

which is to say, using the hoe, fill up the basket until there's no more earth left on the planet. Suppose someone decided to do that. Would that be possible? No, venerable sir, it would not be. Why? Because this great earth is deep and immense. It could not possibly disappear into this guy's basket. Eventually, the person would become tired out and collapse. So he would never be able to do such a thing. The Buddha says in a similar way, bhikkhus, and he repeats the whole thing, there are five ways that someone can speak to you and our minds will remain unaffected. In other words, the strength of your commitment and capacity to keep a loving heart even though everyone is speaking in various ways to you, should be just like the earth.

[51:56]

And no matter how many words people speak at you, it's just like that little basket. It could never possibly overcome the immensity of your loving heart. Then the second metaphor, I suppose a man came along with crimson, turmeric, indigo or carmine and said, the colors, I guess the materials that are used to make paints in ancient India, and said, I shall draw pictures and make pictures appear on empty space. And he took the paintbrush and started painting empty space with the paints. What do you think, Bhikkhu, is this going to work? Is he going to be able to make pictures on empty space? And of course they say, no, there's no way that he can do that. Why is that? Because empty space is formless and invisible and you cannot possibly draw pictures on it. Eventually the man trying to do this would become weary and disappointed and would give up.

[52:57]

And then the Buddha says, well, in the same way, and then he repeats the same whole thing. There are five ways that people can speak to you, and you should always react in the following way. Being like space, you know, they can say all they want, and it won't affect you at all, just like painting a picture on space. It's not going to get to you at all. You'll just beam back to them, loving kindness. Then another metaphor, suppose somebody gets a blazing grass torch. and takes the grass torch and goes to the Ganges River and says, I'm going to take this grass torch and burn away the Ganges River with my torch. Could they do so? No, it's impossible. And same thing. Then the last one is very odd. I'm not sure I understand it exactly, but Apparently, in ancient India, a prized possession was a catskin bag.

[54:02]

I've never seen a catskin bag, but... This is a catskin bag that was rubbed, well rubbed, thoroughly well rubbed, soft, silky, rid of rustling, rid of crackling. So, the catskin must be very, very soft, and then if it's worked, it's the most soft thing going. And then a man came with a stick or a pot shirt and said, this catskin bag that is rubbed and rid and so on and so forth, I'm going to make it rustle and crackle. You know, it doesn't impress me that much, but I guess making a catskin bag that's been so carefully prepared, making it rustle and crackle is about as easy to do as painting a picture on empty space or removing the entire earth and putting it in a basket. Doesn't seem of the same degree of difficulty to me, but apparently it is.

[55:04]

Anyway, the same thing. It can't be done. No, no, it can't be done. And also, your mind should be like that catskin bag. Your mind should be like, in other words, your mind should be like the earth. It should be like space. It should be like the Ganges River. It should be like this catskin bag, so smooth that no one could ever ruffle it and rustle it up, no matter how much that they poked a stick at it. So he repeats the same thing again. Now you may be wondering at this point, this sutra is called the simile of the saw. Where's the saw? Maybe you're wondering. Now comes the saw, at the very end. We're finished with the sutra and the saw is sort of like the cap on the bottle of the whole argument. Even if bandits were to sever you savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he who gave rise to a mind of hate toward them would not be carrying out my teaching.

[56:18]

Herein, Bhikkhus, you should train your mind thus." And then he repeats yet again, our minds will remain unaffected, we shall utter no evil words, we shall abide compassionate and so on and so forth. Because if you keep this advice on the simile of the saw constantly in mind, do you see any course of speech, trivial or gross, that you could not endure? Remember the Teaching moment, that's what they say, if you're a teacher, like a school teacher, they say, what is it, the teaching moment, is that how they put it? Teachable, the teachable moment. In other words, something happens, and it's the perfect moment. So in this case, the teachable moment is Moli of Faguna's relationship with these nuns, and it specifically has to do with how You practice when people are speaking to you in ways that you don't like.

[57:22]

And how you should practice is you should cultivate a mind that is so deep and wide that when you're spoken to in a harsh way or an untimely way or a nasty way or a hatred, you are actually able to come back with a kindness. Do you see, if you keep this advice on the simile of the saw constantly in mind, do you see any course of speech, trivial or gross, that you could not endure? No, venerable sir. Therefore, bhikkhus, the Buddha concludes, you should keep this advice on the simile of the saw constantly in mind. That will lead to your welfare and happiness for a long time. That is what the Blessed One said. The bhikkhus were satisfied and delighted in the Blessed One's words. And that is the sutra on the simile of the saw. And I'll bet you have thoughts on the matter. But let's take a five minute break and then we'll discuss this teaching.

[58:32]

So it may strike you that this teaching is very challenging. And you may even doubt whether it's a good idea to even undertake such a thing. So let's say that the metaphors that the Buddha uses in the sutra are sort of probably ideals that none of us could ever hope to entirely fulfill. Nevertheless, I think the indication is that we should go in that direction, we should try, we should intend to, as much as possible, as much as we can, cultivate that much loving-kindness.

[59:44]

So, I think The fact that having perfect loving kindness is maybe not possible, that shouldn't be a problem. This is not a question of being perfect at this. I think the bigger problem is whether or not this is a good idea to do at all. Some of us might not agree with that. In other words, no matter what anybody says or does, right or wrong, you know? We would be concerned, you know? Well, okay, suppose someone, for no reason, I didn't do anything, starts yelling at me and screaming at me and so on. Shouldn't I? Aren't I right to be angry and defend myself? And the Buddha seems to be saying that the practice is to have an attitude in all cases, regardless of what anybody is doing or saying, an attitude of acceptance and loving-kindness and non-blaming, non-defensiveness, and so on.

[60:59]

Now I, personally, I would say that, you might say, isn't this enormously passive? People walk all over you, you know. Well, my idea would be, not necessarily, because this teaching is not talking about the specificity of various kinds of actions. What it's talking about is attitude. So, it is possible, I think, to have an attitude of non-blaming and caring and yet prevent somebody from doing something that is somehow bad or wrong or unjust. I would say. I would say that that possibility is not in contradiction to this teaching. This is really talking about our inner feeling and the attitude and the feeling that we have to cultivate toward anyone.

[62:12]

who is, in this case, very specifically speaking to us in any way. So, anyway, with all that kind of little commentary to the sutra, what do you feel, what would you like to discuss in relation to this? Yes? Well, aside from the fact that I have some difficulty with of dismissing, well, I guess it's not dismissing, it's not accepting or not reacting to, I believe in careful speech, and I guess that's the point here, is this is all about the receiving, and there's no real, I didn't hear anything regarding the factor of right speech or mindfulness or kind speech?

[63:13]

No, it's not about that. It's like you say, it's about your reaction when someone is speaking to you, yeah. In other places, of course, Buddha speaks about this quite a bit. But here he's really concerned with our capacity. In this case, you know, Molya Faguna apparently did not notice that when certain kind of speech was, he heard certain kinds of speech, he reacted with attachment and anger. He apparently wasn't noticing that. So, right, it's about how we react to speech, not how we speak, in this case, yeah. And I think what you were saying, the way I would put it, is there's a difference between being reactive and being proactive. Yeah. And Molia Faguna was being reactive. Exactly. And when we're reactive, it indicates attachment. Yeah. Or hatred. Yeah. grasping for expectation. And proactive is just, you know, if there's something I need to do, you know, kick somebody in the shins, I might have to kick somebody in the shins.

[64:22]

We have many stories about, you know, the teachers hitting people with ball bats or whatever. Although in the early sutras I don't think you don't have that. In the Zen tradition you have that, but in the early sutras I think, as we've seen from the sutras we've read, in a quite different style and spirit, the Buddha is pretty unfailingly gentle. But in the Zen tradition and in many other Buddhist traditions... What's genuine and what's reactive? Yeah, right, yeah. Someone in the back. Diana, yeah. Well, I've been thinking a lot about the world situation and... what's happening, especially around what looks like an impending war on Iraq. And one of the things that Brennan and I were doing was doing a listening project since September 11th to show people how they felt about the bombing in Afghanistan and the American flag and all of that.

[65:31]

And we deliberately wanted to challenge ourselves to listen to people And it was really interesting to kind of see, okay, how can I see George Bush's Buddha nature, and how can I see the Buddha nature of each person who's standing here talking to me about, let's, you know, decimate these people and stuff. And so how to do that at the same time as knowing that I will do everything in my power to stop the bombing, but not hate George Bush, but not at all agree with what he's doing. So, there's sort of, I'm not saying I'm succeeding at that, but it's an aspiration. And just thinking, that's what I've been thinking about as you've been reading this sutra. Like, how did Harvard, I don't know, just that. Yeah, that is always a great challenge.

[66:33]

And one has to, I think, when someone is being aggressive, by the way, we get defensive, naturally. When someone is more powerful than we and doing something that we really disagree with, naturally it brings up a lot of resentment and anger. But I think one recognizes that aggression is dangerous, not only for the victims of aggression, but for the aggressors themselves. And clearly, aggressors don't know that, or they would think twice, right? We we know that we keep that in mind and we there's some kind of fear Not only for the victims of aggression, but also for the aggressors who in the end I think fare worse actually in the long run Than the victims so with that spirit, you know, you can oppose aggression, you know really feeling like This is for everyone that I'm doing this not for these guys against those guys because then you're aggressive too, right and a lot of times

[68:03]

People who are for peace are extremely aggressive, you know, extremely aggressive. So, you know, it's a trick. But, you know, here, interestingly, as I was saying this to you, I'm thinking, you know, that in this sutra, even that is not being indicated. Even that is not being indicated. What's being indicated here is simply a very uncompromising cultivation. of universal loving-kindness regardless of circumstances. You know? That's what's... I mean, it's not really... The Sutra is not really directly speaking about these kinds of cases. It's really just talking about... It's really talking about when people speak ill or harshly or negatively to you or someone you love. It's really specifically talking about that situation and how one has to really be able to not be reactive to that. In the sutra, the Buddha is also telling Prabhupada, you're wrong, you shouldn't be doing this.

[69:14]

He's saying He's saying that, but I think in a way it's not so much you're wrong as notice that what you're doing there is really running counter to your commitment in the path. You're really missing out on what the teaching is really for and what's really going on here. You're really not seeing. But that amounts to he's wrong, but I think there's a difference in the way that it's puts it. You have made this commitment. After all, you're devoted. Maybe if you weren't devoted to the homeless life, maybe you want to behave this way. Maybe that's fine if you want that. But you have already made a commitment. And so I'm telling you as your teacher that what you're doing, you haven't noticed probably that it's not at all in line with the effort you're trying to make in your life.

[70:21]

So notice that. and be mindful whenever that comes up. And I mean, I think that's what we need to do ourselves, right, is suppose you are truly affected by this sutra and you go home and you think to yourself, gee, you know, there's a lot of times when I'm just like that Moli Afaguna. Somebody says something about my family member or my, you know, my favorite baseball team. And I get a little upset, you know. Actually, you know, I never thought about it, but it's true. To say something about me, you know, I really get upset. So maybe now, the next time that happens, I'm going to recognize that that's really my attachment. And I am trying to. I mean, I put a lot into my Zen practice. So maybe I ought to kind of realize that this is, you know, running in the opposite direction. From now on, maybe I'll pay attention. And I'll know when that comes up, instead of affirming it and picking up that ball and running with it, I will take note of that and maybe just try to breathe.

[71:31]

Just try to let go and not kind of emphasize that so much. So I think that's the... Now, if somebody over here had their hand up first and then I'll come back to you. You actually wanted to speak before him, but please go ahead. For a portion of my day job, I'm on custody leave. which means that I'm in the presence of people who are pretty riled up. I mean, those kind of messages on my answering machine. So, at the end of the day, I have the experience of being filled with the tenor and the vibrations that have been going on, and people have been doing a lot of thinking about that, as wondering how I could make work my practice. And one of the thoughts that I have had about it is how inborn it feels to rev up to the level of emotional vibration.

[72:34]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And how natural and automatic it feels, almost like survival. If someone is in an emergency mode around you, you feel like you have to be in an emergency mode yourself. And that my thought about stability in practice, which I don't quite have, would be, my imagination of that would be, that I would stay in my own place in spite of the rev up of the people around me. And it would happen on not even just a wordless, it would be a piece of wordless transaction. Not just having someone say something negative, but being exposed to the negativity of people. Yeah. Well, that's a beautiful thought and you're in the perfect position to develop such a thing. And I really encourage you to do it because it would not only enormously reduce your own stress in the job, but it would be a huge help to all the people who are coming to you.

[73:44]

So, you know, you should meditate on, just like the sutra says, you should meditate on space and the earth, and as much as possible be like space and the earth. In another sutra, the Buddha says, look at the earth, people urinate on it and spit on it. and the earth never complains and is able to absorb endless amounts of urine and spew them without being affected by it. It only turns it into plants and soil, you know. We know better now. Yeah. So... There's too much urine on the earth. You can take that grass torch and add a couple of decades ago to Lake Erie. So, anyway, do you understand what I mean? Yeah. So I think that's a worthwhile effort to make and I think you actually can.

[74:51]

You can do that. You can do that. By observing your own reaction, when you see that natural reaction arising, just try to be present with it. and try not to emphasize it. You know, it won't work to make it go away, because you won't be able to make it go away. But if you systematically notice it and try not to encourage it, but just a lot, you know, be with it, little by little, it goes, it gets less ramped up. There's a tremendous internal impulse to do something when one sees someone in such pain. Yeah, yeah. To make them calm down or to try to organize the situation so they won't feel that way. Right. But just like you said before, it's a wordless transaction. If you have that state of mind, that will be very helpful. And just the same way that you catch their agitation, they can also catch your calmness. And if they catch your calmness, then solutions become more possible.

[75:53]

I'm sure that you have had the experience many times of seeing a situation like that, in which the solution was fairly obvious. but one was a million miles from it and would perhaps never get to it just because of the level of agitation and anger and hatred. So the more that you could reduce that, the solutions often just appear that are quite easily managed once the level of anxiety and attachment and anger reduces. So it's actually a wonderful position to be in to test and expand and develop your practice. So good luck with that. Yes? I was holding him in abeyance, so let him go next. Yes, sorry. Yes, I just wanted to say that I think if you can avoid reacting to negative speech a lot of the time it's like a protective reaction. You're actually sort of doing the best thing for yourself and not letting yourself be thrown off balance.

[76:56]

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean this is all, the Buddha's teaching here is all about the peacefulness and happiness of Moliya Faguna and all those who would practice this way, absolutely. Because yeah, you get pulled into the maelstrom of the other person's agitation and then, now you're both agitated, and then the whole thing increases and gets worse and worse and worse, yeah. Absolutely. throughout the same situation where there's agitation around you and you don't have a stability. So it's very helpful what you said to just stay with your own instability. That gives you stability to do that. But the question I had is about loving-kindness practices, which actually seems to be suggested in the Sutra. Do you have any practices that you would recommend?

[77:57]

Oh, we talked about this last time, I think, right? Maybe you weren't here last time. We spoke about loving-kindness practice. I think I little bit explained about it and recommended that people look at Sharon Salzberg's book. She gives many, many, many practices, loving-kindness practices. But in a word, it's a cultivation that one undertakes on the cushion. by using phrases of, you know, may she be happy, may she be safe and so forth, repeating them with your breath on your cushion to actually cultivate the feeling of loving-kindness in meditation practice and then trying to do that, extend that into your day and into your interactions with people. But Sharon Salzberg's book is called Loving kindness, right? That's called the art of... And that's the second one, yeah. But the first one is called loving kindness something or other. That's it.

[78:57]

Loving kindness, yeah. I don't know who was asking the question, but I'm happy to lend them. Thank you. Who was the next speaker? So you recommend these practices. Oh, I do, yes. Yeah, yeah, they're very helpful, actually. Yeah. Let's see, you and then Ross, yeah. I guess on this question of dealing with this being in situations where one is going to maybe have this arise, I'm kind of thinking of the part of the story about the housewife and how she was happy while the maid was nice and then the maid challenged her. How do we balance times when we let ourselves be in these situations where we know we're going to be challenged versus being in situations where we know that we maybe won't be so challenged and we'll be treated nicely? How do we put this together? Well, I don't think the point is that there's something wrong with being treated nicely or preferring to be treated nicely over being treated not so nicely.

[80:06]

So I think the only thing is that if we're limited to, if we are fearful of situations in which we're not going to be treated well and limited, we always have to be in those situations. Otherwise, we can't bear it. This is a problem because we're certainly not free in our hearts. I think it's just a matter of doing whatever you... I suppose if you find yourself, let's say, in an extreme case where someone treats you poorly and you absolutely go to pieces to the point where you can't put yourself back together again for a long time, then probably it's actually a good idea at that time to avoid those situations and say, well, yes, I would like to get to the place where I didn't fall apart when that happened, but in fact I do. Therefore, I think it would be a good idea for me to avoid those situations until I become stronger.

[81:10]

So that's practical, I think. But ultimately the idea is to cultivate our practice and when we find ourselves, as we inevitably do, there is no way to avoid difficulty, you know, entirely. When we find ourselves in those situations to recognize them as opportunities to stretch our practice of equanimity and loving-kindness and do our best to do that. And that starts with, like you were saying, first of all just being aware of what's going on and trying to restrain ourselves from our usual habitual reactions lashing out or running away or whatever it is we do and just be with the feeling the unpleasant feeling of fear or nervousness or anxiety whatever it is and then little by little it will reduce by awareness you know that being aware of our true condition whatever it may be, is always the first and most important step in practice. This is how it is. Just knowing, this is how it is, this is how it feels.

[82:13]

That's all. Does that speak to your question? Yeah. Let's see, now several people, that's one, two, and then Ross also wanted to speak, so I will ask the three of you in succession to say something, and then we'll, because it's time to leave. So, Ross, you were, speak first. In responding to Steve's question, you brought up the Zen tradition of sort of, you know, it has this very visceral, proactive kind of signals and shouts and whatnot, which isn't, which seems to be a little different than the old, old way of teaching. And I wonder how much of it is what we're doing today and balancing out this old way of teaching of, is that so, and just accepting people's accusations or what have you toward us, and then

[83:28]

did them traditions encouragement to, say, speak up, or in some teachers' styles, actually getting just as riled up as the students. And the students would actually see their reaction, and then maybe show out from that. It's not that one is better than the other, but they're very different styles. I don't know how much of it is sort of a cultural thing, the Chinese thing, or that type in civil I can't quite form a question around it, but they're very distinct styles, and without saying one style or the other, I wonder how they tie in, or they relate and go to the essence of waking up, which is both styles' ultimate aim. Okay, so I'll say something about that, but to prevent myself from becoming long-winded, I'll let the other people speak first, and then I'll try to say something that, yes, you were going to say.

[84:34]

Well, what you said about fearing passivity by keeping, you know, loving kindness as our attitude reminded me of this, I forget which sutra it's from, but it's Buddha is on a ferry boat with 500 people, the would-be evil doer. I think though that that's not the Buddha who does that, but the Buddha in a past life. Oh, is that right? Yeah. I'm sure that Shakyamuni Buddha never killed anybody, but in past lives he did all sorts of things. But in his present life, as Buddha, he didn't do it. But I think in a past life, yes. No, no, right, right. No, no. I know you didn't. I know you didn't, yeah. I understand what you're saying, yeah. Yes? I wanted to return a little bit to the simile of the saw. Yeah.

[85:35]

The mutilation and the cutting up. If one is attacked physically, is it possible to respond to that and yet defend oneself physically and yet respond with loving kindness? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the sutra is silent on the point, but certainly you can defend yourself without hatred. Certainly you can, yeah. Energy maybe, but not hatred. Well, just briefly to speak to Ross's question, I think that the two styles and you know we are in this in this class looking at the sutras from the old way and so kind of although we can't avoid these kind of comparisons since we're Zen students the main point is to give ourselves to these teachings and just to see what we can gain from them but so let's say that the two styles are as you use the word style they are different styles but both

[86:51]

speaking to the same condition and the same point. They're not different in their goal and in their sense of what's real and what's important, but they're different methods and different styles. I think that one of my theories about the Zen school is that, and I think I mentioned this in one of the other classes, that the Zen school sort of assumed that one would have absorbed and understood all the teachings of the old way already. And it was specifically focused on the breaking through our conceptual minds that create a world in which attachment is always the result. So here, in this story, the Buddha is talking about emotions. He's talking about the emotion of reactivity when someone speaks to you and cultivating a counter-emotion that will be more peaceful.

[88:01]

But underlying that emotion is a whole view of reality. If you saw reality as, let's say, empty of any own being, people could do all they want. You'd never get upset. You wouldn't have to cultivate an emotion that's a counter emotion if you recognize the unreality of the speakers and the words in the first place. So Zen is focused on that issue. And so it's a kind of a very pointed, energetic avenue toward that insight. And therefore, some of the old Zen masters felt like shouting and yelling and beating people was going to help them. to liberate themselves from that view. Personally, I think that in the reality of our situation in which we're not living in monasteries, having given up everything else but that focus,

[89:10]

I think we actually need to look at these teachings and we need to do the kinds of cultivations that the teachings in the old way are indicating. And we need to appreciate Zen, I think, for other more fundamental things than that style. Like Bogen, for example, was not one who used that style. And his teaching is very deeply about the fundamental buddha nature and dignity of every person and that we're already buddha and that practice is the practice of buddha rather than moving toward the goal of being buddha we already are buddha and everybody who practices with us is buddha so you know really for us I think Dogen Zen is quite compatible with these earlier teachings.

[90:13]

So not to say that we stick to these literally, because there are times for a shout and a tremendously energetic response when the moment calls for it. Anyway, a little long-winded, but you get the idea. Thank you for the question. Well, thank you. We have one more meeting, right? Next time. And so we'll read the Angulimala Sutra. Interesting sutra about a serial killer. It is. It's a sutra about a serial killer. And therefore, on the topic of karma. So, thank you. Kings are numberless.

[91:07]

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