I vow to chase the truth of the Tathagata's words. Good morning, everybody. I'm very happy to have the honor of introducing our speaker this morning, Claude-Ange Thomas, who is a Soko Zen monk and a person who has dedicated his life and is dedicating his life to the transformation of violence and the creation of peace. And Claude Anshin is a Vietnam vet. He first encountered Buddhism through the work that Thich Nhat Hanh has done with Vietnam vets. And he worked for several years with Thich Nhat Hanh and lived as a monk at Plum Village in Southern Vietnam. He also worked with Pennsylvania Burning Glass in places of wherever there's war, and trauma, and healing to be done, he wants to go there.

[01:16]

I first met Kwan-An Chin a little over 10 years ago when he came to Berkeley to speak about the work he was doing in Bosnia for peace, which was very courageous work, and we had a wonderful piece in Turning Wheel about that work of his. He has done a number of pilgrimages, and will be doing another pilgrimage next year. He's planning one from Boston to Washington, I believe, partly in conjunction with a book of his, which Shambhala Publications is publishing, which is coming out next fall, probably, called Ending War, Living Peace, A Soldier's Journey. He has done a lot of work in prisons, in schools, with veterans of war. He's done a lot of work, a lot of his work has been in Germany and in Europe, particularly in Germany.

[02:19]

And he's been a fellow traveler with the Buddhist Peace Fellowship, very much supportive of our work, and we've been supportive of his, and it's wonderful to have You're here with us this morning. Thanks. It's great to be here. I'm always glad to sit in such a place and to meet people who dress similar to me.

[03:30]

Somehow it's a great comfort and support to me. The vast majority of things that I do are with communities of people who know little or nothing about Buddhist practice. They know little or nothing about Zen Buddhist practice. So in these circles, I look like I know a lot. In fact, I'm also just a student. And along with the things that Sue mentioned, I also am really engaged in scholarly studies as well, because it's very important to me to learn about the lineage of which I'm ordained in, it's very important for me to study and to learn the basic teachings from which all of this grew as best that I'm able to learn that. I am consciously aware that everything that I study is merely someone's expression of the teaching and that it is not absolute fact, but I think it's really critical.

[04:37]

From one Zen Buddhist teacher, that study and practice weren't two, and that always encouraged me. What became important for me, though, is that in this process of studying and learning, that I understood that that which I studied was itself not the point. It's what I did with that. Sue refers to what I do as the work that I do, and actually I don't consider it work. It's really the only thing that I can do. It's the only thing in this life that makes any sense to me. Having been a soldier in Vietnam and having experienced the war before the war, which was the familial culture that I grew up in, the educational culture that I grew up in, and the overall society from which I grew up, conditioned me, prepared me to go to Vietnam. increasingly more important for me to use all of the expressions of Buddhist practice in this Soto Zen lineage in which I'm ordained to help me to deconstruct the myth of who I thought I was.

[06:01]

To constantly deconstruct the myth of who I think I am so that I can be more available to do what's important to do in any particular moment. For me, it's constantly about abandoning. ideas and concepts. To abandon ideas and concepts, of course, I need a practice that supports me to do that because I'm encouraged again and again or seduced again and again into ideas and concepts and realities. Practice cannot be an intellectual process for me, although the intellectual expression or the intellectual pursuits are not other than practice. I just want to be cautious that I don't get too intellectual about matters, so therefore I do the things that I do. What really was important to me from the beginning, without even being aware that it was important, was to understand the practice of those who came before me, I'm talking way before me, the ancients.

[07:14]

even before the 18th century in Japan, even before Buddhism came to Japan, even before it came, when it first started to develop this Zen practice in China, it became very important for me to understand how this all developed and how the ancient masters practiced, so that I could also study and learn from them. I still have great respect for that which I've been given from Thich Nhat Hanh, and I have great respect for that which I've been given by Tetsugan Glassman. I often say that Thich Nhat Hanh helped me to find my voice. He helped me to speak, he gave me the opportunities and the foundation to which to begin to talk about those things which are important to be talked about. That means everything that people don't want to talk about. So I deal with very difficult topics and I deal with them in a very public way.

[08:21]

Tetsuken Glassman, Bernie gave me the container through which this information could be presented in a way that would help people from all walks of life, from all stratas of societies to be able to listen. A lot of my practice is outside. It was the pilgrimages that Sue talked about. Actually, the pilgrimages that I'm going to do in this coming year will be in September, perhaps somewhere around the end of October, and I'll be beginning it in Concord, Massachusetts. I'll begin at the site of the North Bridge, which was where the first battle of the American Revolution was fought. Then I'll walk from there to the World Trade Center, then from the World Trade Center to the Vietnam Veterans Memorial. It will coincide with the English language release of a book that's been published or going to be published by Shambhala.

[09:34]

In this practice of pilgrimage, I walk without money. I walk in robes. I wear robes 90% of the time. It becomes very important for me to do that so that people can really see the commitments that I make. And it also gives me an opportunity again and again and again to work with this matter of projections and concepts and ideas and my own suffering. I carry everything on my back and I have to beg for everything when I walk. I walk not alone. People are invited to walk with me, providing they're in They understand that what I do is a particular practice and when they walk with me they're saying yes to this practice, that they're also engaging in it. So each morning we begin with a sitting meditation. We begin with Zazen and then we do a service, a Zen Buddhist service that I learned in the lineage in which I'm ordained.

[10:47]

And then we walk. I walk in silence. I don't encourage or don't force other people to do that or don't restrict them to not talking. But if they talk too much, I walk with a stick. I have a walking stick. If they talk too much, then I whack them. Isn't that what we do in this Zen tradition? We whack people? No, it's not true. Please don't believe that. That would not be in keeping with my commitment. But I do speak with them. I ask them to please talk less or in some cases I ask them for the rest of the day, please don't talk. So I walk 15 to 20 miles a day and when I arrive in the next place, I practice Takahatsu sort of. And Takahatsu, the way I understand it, I've never practiced it in Japan, so I don't actually know how it's done. But from what I've studied and what I've heard people talk about, the monks would just stand with their bowls in front of some place until somebody did something.

[11:57]

They put something in the bowl or they threw water on them or they screamed at them. They did something and then they went to the next place. I actually knock on doors. showed up in Smith Center, Kansas and stood in front of the door of the church and waited. I might be there for six months before people would have understood or else the police would come and drag me off. So I actually knock on doors and I introduce myself. I let people know that I'm ordained, a fully ordained monk. I call myself a monk rather than a priest, although I use the terms rather interchangeably. So I introduced myself as a Zen Buddhist monk. I let people know that I'm on pilgrimage. I often give them, I have a small card that shows them what I'm doing, gives them access to the website, so that they can check me out to make sure that I'm legitimate. And then I asked them for a simple place to stay.

[13:04]

and some simple food to eat. That means myself and anyone who's walking with me. Accepting, and I accept, that if everyone says no, that with each no, I bow to them in gratitude. Because with each no, then they're giving me the opportunity to become more conscious of my own suffering. and to really work with that suffering in different ways. They give me an opportunity to understand that it's not my job to convince them of the rightness or wrongness of their position or the rightness or wrongness of my position. It's rather, and to not see them as different than I am, but rather to see how am I connected to them? Where is the point at which we can connect? Because believe me, when I've asked, I have been called the antichrist. I have been spit on. I have been screamed at, I've been humiliated.

[14:05]

I've had a lot of opportunities to practice. And for the most part, I must say that I've really been able to work with these situations quite well. They've been really a great help to me. There have been the odd occasion where I made a mistake tried to show them within the context of their own liturgy or their own theology how they weren't really doing. They weren't really living up to their tradition the way it was taught, and that was a tragic mistake. It just was. But I learned quickly the pointlessness of that. when I go into a war zone, seeing the soldier as the enemy and attempting to convince the soldier of the wrongness of what they're doing and the rightness of my position, it's just not the point.

[15:22]

When I go into war zones or when I go into lock blocked psychiatric facilities or when I do retreats in former concentration campsites. When I'm living on the street homeless and practicing there, when I'm being hosted by the Baroness von Tagenberg, is it possible for me in each moment to see that I'm not different from them, to see the point at which we're connected? We're so conditioned, or at least I'm so conditioned, to again and again look for how I'm separate, or how I'm special, or how I'm unique, rather than how I'm connected. So, I'm somehow uniquely trained in these matters. Having been a soldier, I know that I'm not different. Having lived on the street homeless, I know that I'm not different.

[16:26]

I know how close I am to being there. Having been in psychiatric institutions, I know that I'm not different. But having never been in the home of a baroness, this was a bit more of a struggle for me. and to see that I wasn't somehow different. Because really, I was invited into this place for a meal, and when I stepped inside, I thought I was in a museum. This was in the north part of Italy, or the south part of Austria, depending on your particular perspective. It's an area called Sud-Tirol. If you're from the German-speaking culture, and if you're from the Italian-speaking culture, it's called Northern Italy. It's still an area where both languages are spoken, street signs are in both languages. They have two different representatives in the Italian government, one's a German-speaking and one's an Italian-speaking.

[17:34]

And actually the schools, the areas are still, there's one Italian sort of section to these cities and a more traditional German-speaking section to these cities and they're The schools, there are German-speaking schools and Italian-speaking schools and if you want to have a job in the public sector you have to speak both languages. And before anything could actually ever change in this area, the Austrian government needs to be consulted and agree. So it's really interesting how this has all been negotiated. people who were at once sort of violently acting for autonomy were able to negotiate and reach some sort of balanced settlement, a bit like living in Belgium where they speak two languages or in Switzerland where they speak four, at least four. They have a German-speaking part, an Italian-speaking part, a French-speaking part, and up in the mountains they speak a kind of dialect, a Romanish dialect. a Ramanish language really.

[18:36]

How all of this works is very interesting to me because it's really what I hope to help people or support people in doing and the way I support them is by myself living differently. My monastery is not in such a fine and wonderful place as this. My monastery is wherever I am at. on one occasion while I was walking across the United States, and I walked from Yonkers, New York to Albany. I think it was the first time I ever came here. I was actually hosted here, and it was supposed to be for six days. I ended up staying for 13. I encountered, in a small city in Colorado, I encountered a Protestant minister, only I didn't really know in initial stages. I introduced myself to him. We asked to be hosted in the church.

[19:39]

They refused us because they wouldn't let Buddhists sit forth in their building. And it's not the first time I'd heard that. And so we retired to the park and we commenced to look for food and beg for food. And then this pastor from this church showed up. He introduced himself and he asked me if I believed in Jesus Christ. I said, yes, I do. He was stunned. He didn't expect that answer, so he didn't know what to do for a moment. He was a little off balance. He said, well, do you believe in Jesus Christ the way I believe in Jesus Christ? I said, well, I don't know. How do you believe in Jesus Christ? He said, well, according to this book, and this book is the only book, this is the way we believe, and if you don't believe in this, then you're going to go, you know, He had it down. And I said, well, I'm sorry, I don't know that book, so I can't believe in the way that book expresses it. He said, aha, I knew it.

[20:41]

You're the Antichrist. I bowed to him. I said, thanks, but that's a serious promotion. Really, I'm just a simple Buddhist monk. He didn't appreciate my humor. But then I asked him, I said, how old are you? And he gave me his age. And at that time, which is in 98, he was, I think, in his mid-60s or early 60s. And I said, did you serve in the military? He said, what? Why, yes, I did. I said, did you serve in Korea? He said, what? I did. And I'm not making fun of him. This is the way he spoke. And I said, he said, I served so you could be free to do what you do. And I bowed to him and I thanked him.

[21:42]

And I said, you know, I was a soldier in Vietnam. And that's why I thought I was fighting, so you could be free to do what you do. He looked at me for a moment, walked away, got in his car, left, came back with three bags of food. See, I didn't fight with him or argue with him or attempt to convince him. I just looked for the place where we could connect. In some ways, I'm sad it was in this point of military service, but nonetheless, we did connect there. And actually, we had both taken steps quite interesting from this place of military service into a place of religious service or spiritual practice. I was sad that his practice still manifested itself in such a rigid way. But it was a bit like arriving in Denver and going to the Buddhist temple in Denver and knocking on the door, and they opened the door and took a look at me, scanned me up and down, shut the door, didn't say anything.

[22:46]

They wouldn't host me. It was, for me, the same process. You know, it's like encountering people in this tradition who say that, in fact, I'm not Buddhist enough, because I'm not sitting here talking to you about the 12 stages of mind from an academic perspective or a liturgical or theological perspective. Or it's like the people that I meet who in other circles, Buddhist practicing circles, say I'm not Buddhist enough. I'm too Buddhist or I'm not Buddhist enough or I'm never not enough somehow. That's why doing what I do is very, very important. That's why the discipline that I have is so very, very important. I'm firmly committed to the reality that without a disciplined spiritual practice,

[23:48]

transformation and realization is impossible. Without a disciplined spiritual practice, that means you can't do whatever you want and call that practice. I think I watch people too quickly retreat into the intellect in which we can rationalize and justify everything as practice. And somehow it's correct. but it's not actually correct. A lot of people say I'm much too rigid in the way I work with precepts and the way in which I work with the Eightfold Path. These are essential practices that I think ought to be invoked more and more frequently in all Buddhist circles. That's not to denigrate or dismiss the teachings of Dogen. But the teachings of Dogen rose out of these initial teachings and practices. It evolved from there.

[24:50]

I want to go back to the source. And I don't mean going back to the source in any fundamentalist way, but just in a sense of learning. How did that lead to that? Because what is that basic teaching? This is like this because that was like that. And as this is, that will become. Since May I've been essentially traveling. I spend a great deal of time in Europe and a lot of that is in German speaking countries, not just Germany. Although I do spend a lot of time in Germany because I feel such a kinship with them. Based on world projections about German people as a result of the second war. German people being some symbols of evil. And myself, as a Vietnam veteran, being a world symbol of evil. That's how I was perceived when I came home.

[25:53]

That's how the people in this peace movement perceived me. Of course, unless they could use me for their advantage. Because to have someone in their organization who was a Vietnam veteran was like a great feather in the cap of various organizations. Now, please be sensitive to the fact that I am speaking in generalities. I am very aware that there were exceptions to this, but I am speaking about what I experienced as the rule. The people who put the yellow ribbons up are not the people who will greet these young men when they come back from Iraq and Afghanistan. There are nearly 3,000 young men already laying in hospitals who've been wounded, dismembered, injured, hurt, who suffer psychological trauma. And those of us who are really working for the transformation of violence and suffering ought to be going there and visiting these guys.

[27:04]

Why not? They're not the enemy, just like I wasn't the enemy. Wiebke is not the enemy. She's German. I want to use the tools that I'm presented within the context of the teachings that have grown in this tradition in which I'm ordained and the Buddhist teachings, I want to use those to help me to see things in a less polarized, with a less polarized view. It is really to deconstruct this myth of duality.

[28:06]

Yes, there is somehow good and bad in a relative sense, but in a much greater sense, they don't exist. And if I only concentrate on the good and bad, and I just continue to perpetuate cycles of suffering, which I want to support, I want to support an active practice and engagement in the world that leads to the cessation of dividing the world up in this way. While it exists, it also doesn't exist, so how can I live with these matters with more equanimity? When I came back to the US in the first part of November, as I spent more time here, I began to have this impression that what I was experiencing was a culture responding much like abused children respond.

[29:12]

Numb, withdrawn, retrenched, and looking only how to secure their own safety and security, rather than taking the necessary steps, or what I think are necessary steps, to bring an end to war. to bring an end to suffering, or at least to facilitate the transformation of these. It is possible. In particular to the vows that I have taken, I have taken a vow to end all war in my lifetime. This is possible. And to bring an end to all suffering in my lifetime. And this is possible. There is no enemy. It doesn't exist. It's only a question of perception.

[30:14]

How do I deal with greater realities? And how do I deal with the reality that through sanctions, over 10 years of sanctions, conservative estimates say a million people died in Iraq. How do I deal with the realities that people actually do live in in Afghanistan? How do I deal with not attempting to impose my views on another, but bring this information that healing and transformation is possible? How do I do that? I don't know. Just like when I sit down here, I don't have any idea what I'm going to say. And it's of particular interest to me because this is the first time I think I've ever sat down and talked here where Shogun's been sitting there. This was intimidating for me because I still have to deal with my own sense of inadequacy because I want to be the perfect Buddhist monk.

[31:22]

I want to do everything just right and I want to be accepted. I want everyone to love me because if they love me then they'll understand and they'll do it just right. So to sit here in consciousness with all of this suffering is really important to me and not allow that to control me. To continue to do again and again and again what I understand to be the correct thing in that moment. To be as spontaneous as I'm able to be. I want to go to Iraq and now I know why I want to go to Iraq because I want to see and experience what these soldiers are seeing and experiencing and what the ordinary people who are what they're seeing and experiencing.

[32:25]

I want to live in the heat. I want to live in the dust. I want to live in the dirt and the filth. I want to see this so that I have a better sense of what's going on. So that when I go into the hospitals, I can talk to these soldiers in some useful and meaningful way because what they're experiencing is not Vietnam. One can draw comparisons in a general way, but to draw specific comparisons is inadequate and it's misapplied information. I can't know how to speak to these people in any specific way unless I've actually been there. Now I know why I want to go. when I initially had a possibility to go before the invasion through the Buddhist Peace Fellowship, although I said yes, I didn't really have a clear idea why.

[33:25]

Why was I going? And when it actually came about that because I wasn't a member, members had to be given priority and there were enough members who wanted to go and I couldn't go and I was disappointed. I said, well, gosh, why are you disappointed? I wasn't really clear about my motives. So in this point in time, I had thoughts about emulating myself, you know, to draw attention to the insanity. I mean, how could people actually believe the propaganda that was being perpetrated to justify the actions that have been taken? I get crazy around that stuff. And that people could even entertain for the moment that there were weapons of mass destruction there. It was just incredible that they didn't understand that the reason weapons inspectors were there was to make sure that there weren't any weapons so that the invasion could go more smoothly.

[34:29]

What does all this have to do about with Buddhist teaching? What does this all have to do with the Sodo Zen lineage? It has to do with cause and effect. It has to do with the idea of the Four Noble Truths. That there is suffering, and that the causes of suffering are selfish desire, craving, and ignorance. But where there is a cause, there is a cure, and that cure is the Noble Eightfold Path. Do we have the courage to really engage that path? This is the point. And if there's any way that I can support people to engage in that path, that's why I do what I do. It is the only thing that makes any sense to me. Sitting on the cushion, doing service, listening to the bells,

[35:36]

and then taking it to see how that cushion manifests, sitting on the cushion, manifests itself in the greater world. Going out again and again and again and again, when I'd really rather drive my motorcycle and lay on the beach. It is exactly this discipline that helps me and supports me again and again to do this. I'll ask Kenshin to wake the bell up and help it to sing two times, and I will stop talking to you and invite your questions. I will say that if you have a question, please ask a question. Please don't make a statement, if it's possible. If you disagree with what I presented, it's quite all right. I'm not interested to argue and debate about it. I fully support your position, whatever that is. And you can ask me anything you want. I have no answers.

[36:39]

I will respond to you as clearly as I can from my own experience and from my own sense of practice and how this theology manifests itself in my life. Questions? Ross? You were encouraging us to go visit the vets in the hospital. You haven't been over there to slop around in the mud and learn and experience that. Why do you feel it's important for you to do that before visiting the soldiers?

[37:41]

Well, I don't know if it's necessary for me to do that before visiting the soldiers, because I've already actually been visiting with them. And I just think that one of the things that I'm hearing from the veterans who are returning from this conflict is that you don't understand because you weren't there. And some of that's actually true. So if I do go, which I really want to go now, and have some of that basic experience, then when they say, well, you haven't been there, you don't know, I can say, well, yes, I have. That helps to lend some credibility in some more challenging or difficult situations. One does not have to go there to be able to visit with compassion and support these guys, these men and women, right where they are. Thank you. In the back. Thank you. You're welcome. You mentioned that when you go around and you're met with

[38:43]

that unkindness, that it gives you an opportunity to notice your own suffering. I'm wondering, what about when people meet you with compassion and meet your suffering with compassion and kindness, what opportunity does that give you? It gives me a chance to experience joy. It gives me an opportunity to experience this larger interconnected reality. It also gives me an opportunity to experience my own suffering, because sometimes when they give, it is not the giving that is taught to us through the Dhanaparamita. It's not selfless giving, but rather out of a sense of duty or obligation, which is also painful, because somehow it's patronizing. And I'm quite sensitive to being patronized, because I can't tell you how painful it is to have people walk up to me and say, welcome home, bro, as a Vietnam vet, when they don't really have any idea.

[39:58]

In one sense, I have some sense of gratitude and thankfulness, but I have a real aversion to people who are patronizing in this way, this pseudo-kindness, pseudo-compassion. And also when people are giving consistently, I get accustomed to that, I expect it, and then that's also suffering. So when people say yes, they give me access to my joy, they give me access to other experiences as well as my own suffering, which is to expect that. I lose my composure, and I was wondering if you could help me with that.

[41:00]

Only if you want to not lose it. Okay. And that is not an intellectual decision. Sojoum would probably be a better source to support you if you have that commitment. But unless we have an unwavering commitment to not lose our composure, then nothing will support us, nothing will help us, absolutely nothing. If you have that commitment, then whatever I can do, I offer myself to you. That's precisely why I wear robes. I took vows to serve Buddha. I wear robes as an external symbol of those vows and commitments and of course, in my experience, you are Buddha. Okay, up here.

[42:03]

And then I'll come to you. I was an anti-Vietnam peacenik as a teenager, but I appreciate what you said about yourself and other, and I can't believe that Bush and the Pentagon are the cause of the war. Bernie Glassman once wrote something about if somebody is completely in the moment and kills somebody, no one dies, no thing is happening. This is a koan, and I know he's not saying it's okay to kill, in a Koan sense, isn't it true that a peace demonstration is setting up a polarity, us versus the evil? Well, I think peace demonstrations are quite useful. And I don't know why there aren't four or five hundred thousand people on the streets every day. What are they demonstrating? In the end, it somehow doesn't matter.

[43:05]

You know, that's why we have to be cautious not to get too intellectual about these matters. but rather use these matters as an opportunity to practice again and again and again. In the end, it's not my responsibility to ... well, it's just like my attitude towards institutionalized Buddhist practice. I'm not a very strong supporter of institutionalized Buddhist practice. I have certain thoughts and feelings about those. If you'd like to know them, you can talk to me afterwards. But at the same hand, I'm really thankful that these places exist because they give an opportunity for people to come and to wake up. Yeah, I think it's really, really dangerous business to approach these ideas from an intellectual perspective. So yes, I'm glad that people are out on the streets. I think it's important to bring up this other, to bring up the other perspective.

[44:07]

We also live in the relative world where this, I mean this is a glass, or a cup, or a bowl. A teacher from the 6th or 7th century, he was the abbot of a monastery, some of his monks came back to him and they discovered this wonderful hermit who lived in the forest and they found him to be quite enlightened and fine and asked, well, what was so moving about them? And they said, well, over his door he had a sign that said mind, and over his window he had a sign that said mind, on his wall he had a sign that said mind. Fayan paused a bit and bowed to them and said, yes, he is a very, he's a very skillful practitioner. However, it would have been better if over his door he would have had a sign that said door. And when I read that I thought, it's a pity that I didn't have a chance to study with Fayan.

[45:10]

Because I really appreciate that perspective. So, yes, there is this paradox, but in the relative realm, life is about paradox. And as Suzuki Roshi said, if it isn't a paradox, it's not true. Well, at this point I really don't want to discuss it anymore. It is like that. It is like that. What did you do in Bosnia? Why did you go there and what was your experience? I went on three occasions and I had all sorts of ideas on the first occasion why I went. I went to be a peace worker and I found out really what that meant for me. So what it meant for me was not imposing my ideas or the group's ideas of what peace was, but rather just to experience and see what was happening there. and to observe, to bear witness, which for me is the practice of meditation.

[46:15]

That's what happens. When I sit on the cushion, I pay attention to my thoughts, feelings, and perceptions. I was doing that in a more active way there. I had a bell with me, and in different places and on different occasions, I helped that bell to sing because, of course, the bell is an indication to stop and become calm. I visited with soldiers and with combatants and non-combatants in the hospitals. I visited all three factions that were fighting. They were all centered in one area where I was, which was Mostar. I listened to their stories and really engaged with them about what I had learned from my own experience in war and encouraged them to not fight. What did I learn? That unequivocally, violence is never a solution.

[47:17]

Unequivocally. Last question. Last two questions. Go ahead. You've been studying the ancient Buddhist masters, and you said that was really important to you. We often hear nowadays in America that engaged Buddhism is a kind of historically new development resulting from certain causes, and that in early history of Buddhism, monks had a strong tendency to withdraw from the world, and they didn't see that as a problem. Do you see that split as actually existing in the old periods of history? compared to what you are committed to now? Well, first I would say engaged Buddhism isn't a current phenomenon. It's been going on for centuries. That's exactly what the Buddha practiced, engaged Buddhism. I mean, nine months out of the year, he wandered from village to village. I would also say that in this Zen lineage, there is a tradition of wandering monks.

[48:20]

And also, in the very early training of monks, I'd say, in the time in which which Bodhidharma, if he existed or didn't, came to China from whichever direction he came to it from. I want to be cautious because I don't want to get hit with a stick 30 times. The monks studied in the monastery to become masters in five different disciplines so that they could move back into the villages and provide education, health care, spiritual support, protection to the villages. So engaged Buddhism is not a new phenomenon. It's just a new spin on an old phenomenon. Withdrawing from the world, to live cloistered in a monastery is not necessarily withdrawing from the world. It is a perception. If one is going into a monastery to withdraw from the world, of course, that is not monasticism.

[49:24]

That is not seclusion. I heard you talk on Monday, and I heard you say the same thing. Violence is never a solution. And you also talked about having contact with the Afghani. And that when the Iraqi soldiers come back, that we should love them, not hate them. And I kind of took it in, but not really knowing what to do with that. until I went back east for Thanksgiving, and my mother's an Orthodox Jew, and she came to the store, and they said, oh, my mother said, we can write a letter to a Jewish soldier here. And she gave her three daughters little things to write a note to a Jewish soldier. And immediately, the aversion came up. And so I said, immediately, no. And I walked away. And then I remembered what you had said, and I was just standing there, and I said,

[50:29]

OK, give me the letter. And I wrote a letter to a Jewish soldier, S-O-U-L slash D-I-E-R. And it came from my heart. And I realized it was just something that you had said that it permeated my consciousness at that moment about my own inner violence. And it was so wonderful. And I know it's a statement, not a question. So, last question. Thank you. What's the best way to approach a homeless person? I don't have any idea. I don't mean that facetiously. What I think is the best way to approach any moment in life is from a position of practice, from a position of not knowing. so that that moment can then teach me and instruct me.

[51:35]

And of course, with my concepts, my ideas, without having a strong discipline-rooted commitment to practice, without an engaged practice on a daily basis, I will be led again and again by my concepts and ideas. I will see the world as self and other. For me, it's about approaching those moments as opportunities to learn. What can I know? But approaching them mindfully, in awareness, knowing that in a very real way, what is it? What are the potentials in this moment? You know, people aren't on the street for no reason. People have mental illness, they're drug addicted, you know, they're escaping

[52:36]

criminal consequences, and because they're treated in a certain way and they live under certain conditions, their reactions are not going to be the same as what I'm accustomed to, or what most people are accustomed to. Don't approach them with idiot compassion, because if we approach them with idiot compassion, we're likely to be exploited, killed, manipulated, abused, or create more suffering. When I was in Bosnia, actually I was in Croatia, what's called Croatia now, on my second trip there. See, I was ordained in Auschwitz and then I walked to Vietnam. And I walked through Croatia and Bosnia and then to Serbia. And in Croatia we were walking, it was at that time a section in Croatia that was Serbian controlled. And we were walking along the towns that bordered this particular section which were really destroyed. And we had a meeting that was facilitated by a politician who was there to convince us that there were no Croatian paramilitaries and that they weren't really practicing a policy of ethnic cleansing.

[53:48]

And I was engaged in a conversation with a drunken soldier, a paramilitary soldier, you know, the ones that didn't exist. And I had my rock suit on. And he looked at it, and I mean, this guy was really drunk. He looked at it and he said, I want that. And I said, no, I'm not going to give it to you. And I had translation. He said, no, you don't understand. I want that. I said, no, you don't understand. I'm not going to give it to you. He took out his 9 millimeter, flipped the safety off, put it firmly down on the table, and said, I want that. I said, well, if you want it, I can give it to you, but you have to go through a process. He said, what? I said, we have to become ordained. You see, I'm a novice lay monk. I said, and if you want it, I can ordain you. But at this point, see, because I understand about alcoholism and I understand about drunks because I am one, and I understand about this crazy space of being intoxicated and how you can't really make sense when someone's intoxicated, I didn't try to.

[55:01]

I just tried to break the spell. And he said, well, what do I have to do? I said, well, it's pretty simple. You just have to shave your head, stop drinking, stop taking drugs, stop killing, and stop having sexual relations. He went, what about that? I had a mola on. He said, what about that? I want that. I said, I don't think I'm ready for the other thing. I said, OK, OK, OK. I'm willing to trade you. for this maula. He said, trade, for what? I said, what I would like you to do is eject the magazine from your 9mm, then unchamber the round that's in there, and you give me that bullet and I'll give you this maula. He thought for a moment, picked up the gun, popped the magazine, laid it down, unchambered the round, gave me the round.

[56:03]

I gave him back, I gave him my mama. Disarmament. Really, that's what happened in that moment. That is the engaged practice. Now, he was getting ready to go out onto the frontier. And I told him, I said, before you go out there, don't forget to put that magazine back in your gun and chamber around. because I'm not going to be responsible. I need to deal with this, the realities that are happening in a responsible way. I don't want to manipulate the situation. So who asked the question that I just answered? Oh yeah. Thank you. So it's meeting as freshly as I can each moment from a place of not knowing, which is rooted in practice. So, thank you for the opportunity.

[57:04]

Yes, and thank you so much for this possibility to meet you and to engage with you. I'll stay around for some moments if you have other questions you'd like to ask or you want to engage me with things, I'm quite open to do that. Just give me a chance first to go to the toilet.

[57:26]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ