And I don't know how it will turn out. None of us knows how it will turn out. There's a lot of anxiety in the air. We are so sympathetic to everyone who has this disease, to all those people who have died, all the people that are sick, all the relatives, friends, and associates of this disease. interconnected body we're now becoming more and more aware of. So in some ways brought us all together in a unified effort. Wars do that. Epidemics do that. Too bad that when we're feeling fine, it doesn't do that so well. I know this is a tragic event for us and all of our society worldwide.

[01:10]

And hopefully what will come out of this is a worldwide unity. That's our hope. But I'm not sure that will actually happen. I don't want to explain why that will maybe not happen, but you can understand it. Selfishness rules. So I have a list of things that were given to me, and I'm going to go through them one by one. And I hope they're all relevant for everyone. I think there will be all these questions. There are questions about our societal problems.

[02:16]

Then there are questions about our practice problems. So I think they're connected, but I'm going to talk about them from the point of view of our practice problems. You know, the Japanese, from where our practice, the background of our practice, Japanese tend to do everything together. When you see Japanese tourists in Berkeley or San Francisco, they're always in groups with cameras and so forth, and so that's a kind of characteristic that we notice. Americans tend to be more individualistic, and this is one of the dichotomies of our practice. We have an individualistic society in that so-called group society, which is great.

[03:24]

You know, how do we mix that up and how do we benefit each other is really a question. I've been working for years with Japanese priests at the Shimucho, which is the administrative arm of the Soda School, as to how we practice together, if that's possible. So there's some progress there, a little bit. Anyway, that's not what I want to talk about. That's just an introduction. But our practice, we have taken a group. It's not a group practice, but it's practicing together. We have a zendo and we practice together. And we're used to that, and that's become our style. What's happened in this case, is that everyone is confined, each one of us is confined to our own little corner of the world, which is called our room, our house.

[04:39]

And we feel trapped. There's a kind of trapped feeling. I want to go out and buy a pair of pants. I want to go to the grocery store. We find all this confinement. What a great opportunity. So we say that hell is just another place for a Zen student to practice. So I want to look at this for a minute. How should the question, how shall we practice with limbo status? Limbo means something like the border of hell and being held in confinement.

[05:48]

Nimbo held in confinement at the border of hell. It's a great subject for us. You know, the greatest confinement that we experience is called Zaza. We practice with confinement. That's our practice. And we learn everything we need to know from the state of confinement. because our natural tendency is to move around. So if we stop moving around and put ourselves into confinement, we learn what moving around means. We learn what having and not having means. We learn what pain and pleasure means. we learn what desire means.

[06:54]

So, although this confinement is like being in jail for so many people, for a Zen student, it's a great opportunity to practice, in American style, solo practice. Practicing as solo practice. I've had people say to me, I feel guilty because I'm enjoying this confusion. While other people are suffering because of it, I'm enjoying it. So I usually say to people, Please don't feel guilty, Bella, that you're enjoying the convention.

[07:59]

So how do we practice in this situation? That's our task. How do we practice in this situation? and use it instead of being used by it. Somebody once said to me, how can I be feeling happy when so many other people are unhappy? Suzuki Roshi said that. I remember we were sitting Sashin one time, and people were all suffering, of course, back in the 60s. We were suffering from the pain in our legs. And he said, how can you feel happy for yourself when so many people are suffering in the world? So this is a great koan for us.

[09:03]

This is our momentary and perennial question. Should I not feel happy? Should I feel unhappy? So everything has at least two sides, and actually has three sides. There's a side of what's good, there's a side of what's bad, and there's the side that's just like a glass. It's one side, not two-sided, just one side. The glass can go around the glass, it only has one side. And yet, it contains something good or something not so good. So, you know, when we are confined, the women have, someone said this to me because

[10:17]

they have a kind of cancer or something like that. And this woman said, I live from scan to scan, which is, you know, how is my blood doing? And living from shut down extension to shut down extension. And then The question is for me, how do I do that? So last year, I discovered that I have cancer. And I was in bed in the Kaiser Hospital, actually, a couple of different hospitals. And I was dealing with that. I don't think, I never thought about my life as being from one test to another.

[11:24]

But in between the tests, you're still living. Your life is still going on. So for me, how do I actually find myself on each moment? Not from one test to another. We tend to live our life with signposts. We have a schedule, and every day we have these signposts that we assign ourselves. We get up, we eat, we have breakfast, we go to work, and so forth, and those are the signposts. But in between is where our life is. Our life is continuously going on in between the signposts. So what's just the most important, the signposts or the life in between the signposts? So I was asked, well, how do I do this?

[12:28]

So that's what I'm going to tell you. That's why I'm telling you this. How do I do this? I just live my life one moment at a time. Everything is equal. Even though everything is different, everything is equal. So every moment is equal to every other moment, and it's just as important. So how I live my life, moment to moment, is called practice. If I'm only interested in the signposts, then the rest of my life is just that kind of... I'm not experiencing my whole life. I'm only experiencing certain important things. I remember Suzuki Roshi talking about washing the windows. Because we have a goal called washing the windows to get it clean. That's what we're concentrating on. But actually, just the activity of washing the window.

[13:31]

How you hold the newspaper in your hand. Newspaper is the best cleaner for cleaning your windows. So, let me talk about boring. What's boring? You know, being confined in your room has nothing to do, it's called boredom. But boredom is simply not being connected to what's going on, to the moment. If you're totally with each moment, there's no such thing of boredom. You know, like, I don't like to wash the dishes particularly, but as soon as I'm engaged, I enjoy it. So how do we stay engaged in our life, no matter what's going on? So because we want to get well, we focus on getting well.

[14:37]

Actually, I don't focus on getting well. I just focus on what's happening. If I get well, That's great. So far, I don't have any problem. Although I have cancer, I'm only explaining this because it's what's happening, not because I think I'm doing well. I don't know. My life is just going on, and I'm enjoying it, and I can do whatever I need to do. I'm so fortunate. I am one of the most fortunate people in the world. Maybe I'm the most fortunate person in the world. So cancer, I don't know much about it, you know. And I'm very fortunate that at 90, I can have my cancer.

[15:42]

And because somehow my chemo doesn't give me any problem, I've had a few different minds, and neither one of them is giving me a problem. So I don't know what's going on. I really don't know what's going on. But I'm just living my life one moment of time and enjoying it. But I do have a sympathy with people who are in pain and who are I have a lot of people dependent on him, unlike me, and who fear death. I wrote something down here behind my notes, so I'll look at it. So I said here in my note, do I like to wash and put away the dishes?

[16:50]

No, but when I'm actually doing so, I love it. It's great because I could bend down and pick up the dishes from the dishwasher and put them on the shelf. And oh my gosh, actually, that's great exercise. So every movement is exercise. If we can use every movement, That's a great exercise. And what we're trying to do is save our movements, right? That's not a good idea. It's good to use your movements as exercise. All of your movements, sitting up, standing up, sitting down, walking around, is all exercise. So we should appreciate the difficulties we have with doing something that we don't like to do particularly. because it helps our life. Our practice is not to go from one subject from main subject to main subject.

[17:58]

Non-discrimination means that you enjoy everything because everything has the same value. Non-discrimination means that everything has the same value. Discrimination means that each thing has a different value. So discrimination is the spice of life. Non-discrimination is the main dish. So the discrimination of non-discrimination is our practice. How shall we work with our worries about the future of BZC? I've never worried about the future of BZC in my life. No, 50 years of BZC, I never worried about it at all.

[19:02]

I've never worried about how much money we had. I never worried about my salary. I don't have a, people call it a salary. I see it as contributions. I just have my begging bowl sitting in front of me and money. People put money in it. I never asked for a raise. I never asked for... My wife... We used to get $150 a month. Because that's not enough. So... People recognize... when it was time to raise my benefits. But I never asked for anything. I never said I need a raise. When I was out of the 70% Center, I got paid. And I said, since I'm providing my time, I don't want you to give me a raise.

[20:09]

So I wasn't brought up without any money. And at first, I thought it was during the Depression, 1929 to 1941. And I never had it in my, you know, but there's always food on the table. My parents took care of my brother and I in that sense, even though, you know, tough times. I remember my mother sending me to a butcher to get a bone for the dog. And when I came home, she put it in the soup. That's kind of where we were. So I thought that maybe it's not such a good idea to be poor. But I so appreciate the way I was brought up being poor because I learned how to be happy and

[21:16]

wealthy with nothing. So that's kind of always been my way, and we've always survived. We've never had a financial problem at the Berkeley Zen Center. We didn't get a lot of, we did get some donations from outside, you know, but it's always been our sangha that supported itself through our own contributions. I never wanted to nickel and dime people about we need this, we need that, blah, blah, blah. You know, people recognize what we need and the contributions flow naturally. instead of, you know, trying to kill people.

[22:18]

So that's the way, you know, when people say, well, what's the future of BZC? I don't know what the future of BZC is. And it's not a big concern for me. We've always existed on day-to-day practice. You know, Suzuki Roshi says, when the Dharma wheel is turning, the financial wheel will follow. If the Dharma wheel is not turning, the financial wheel will dry up. So that's it. That's my philosophy of sustenance. As long as we're practicing, we'll be supporting. So the important thing is not trying to get a lot of money. The important thing is to really dig down into practice and forget about it. You know, practice places like a boat, a ship, and the people who do all the work, most of the work are down in the boiler room.

[23:36]

In the old ships, it was coal, you know, they used to shovel gold into the boiler room. And there were these guys that worked day and night, you know, shovel and coal. And I always thought of, our practice is like, we're in the bowels of the ship shoveling coal, and somebody's up at the top steering boat, but the guy that's steering the boat should also take his turn, shoveling coal. So the main thing is the practice, everything follows, and we have to know how to improvise, because It looks like everything is set, but it's not. We just keep used to the way things are and call it tradition. We do have a tradition, but it can just collapse at any moment. It could. You know, sometimes they're ready high and sometimes they're ready low, but the shape is always like this, you know.

[24:42]

And when things were getting like this, people would get worried. I never got worried. It's just sometimes you're down at the bottom, sometimes you're up at the top. So riding the waves is called our practice. BCC practice is called Riding the Waves. Enjoying the ride. And I'm not getting overwhelmed. Shizuki Roshi used to talk about Tassahara. I mean, he did talk about Tassahara. people were getting worried, you know, we lose Tassahara, we lose Tassahara, we lose the mouth. We'll practice in that way. So, you know, in a different place. Don't worry about it. Don't turn all of your effort into trying to preserve some place. Turn your effort into practice. The rest will follow. And I've always experienced that problem.

[25:45]

so many times. People talk about faith, you know. How do you maintain your faith? You maintain your faith through practice. When you're feeling good, you practice. When you're feeling bad, it's practice. No matter how you're feeling or what's going on, you always come back. Whatever you're doing is based on what we call PRA, C-T-I-C-E, practice. It's a terrible word, you know, but still, like some word, practice. You just stay there, and then you experience everything through practice, which means continually letting go, living your life one moment at a time, and continuously letting go, and entering the next moment, and letting go. and entering the next moment and not dragging a lot of stuff behind you.

[26:49]

So you let go of what you're dragging along and enter each moment, brand new. Every moment is a new moment. It's called person death. You leave everything behind. That's called death. And you enter the next moment. That's called birth. Not life and death. Life is continuous. Birth and death are discontinuous. And life includes both birth and death. We have to understand this. So how do we work with our worries about the future of BCC? I'm not worried about it. It'll work as long as we have our flexibility and our non-attachment and in the practice.

[28:05]

So then there is like the elder problem. We have all these elders, you know, because I expected that people would flow through, which they do. But then a lot of people, because of our long existence, seems like long, 50 years, people accumulate. We have an accumulation of practitioners, and they get older. And they get smarter, hopefully. They get wiser. And they can teach. So, and that's great. So we can do that. And how do they, you know. So that's something that we have to, that we're working with. And then we have the younger people. Young people who don't want to commit themselves to anything.

[29:07]

This is the trailing today of young people. Well, I don't blame them. because they have so many opportunities. When I was practicing, starting to practice, we had only a few opportunities. And it just kind of flowed into this one. So, our practice has been pretty vital. The thing is, the problem is, I think, not how easy we make it for people. but how difficult are you making it for people? When you make it difficult for people, they tend to stay, the good ones. When you make it easy, it looks like they're gonna stick around, but they don't. There has to be a challenge, and the challenge has to be vital, and the vitality has to be true. I had to break my neck to

[30:12]

continue doing Zazen. That's why I love it. Because I stood up to the challenge and I went through it. And now Zazen, it's so easy for me. Like, just wonderful and easy. And he goes, well, what about you? What do you do about your pain? I don't have any pain. Why don't you have any pain? Because I don't cultivate it. We don't realize how we cultivate our pain. by reaction, reacting to our feelings. When we react to our feelings, we cultivate pain. Can't help it. So letting go, we don't know what that really means until we spend a lot of time practicing it. Then life becomes with me here. But we're not attached to that which creates of pain and suffering.

[31:16]

The purpose of practice is to get beyond suffering. Not that we don't ever have it. Because we go through it and realize what causes it. And then we can sit very comfortably and enjoy it. Enjoy the good institute of life. That's the goal of our practice. And that's what creates faith in our practice. I have great faith in our practice. It doesn't mean anything. I never forget what I'm doing. Sometimes I do forget. And then it creates problems. When I forget, it creates problems. But I have to always remember what I'm doing. And I want myself to get caught by my feelings, emotions. and ideas. So I'll be 91 in July if I get there.

[32:22]

If I don't get there, that's okay. One day you die. One day you're no longer in this thing. And we think that's terrible. It's not good. It's not bad. It's not terrible. It's just the way it's called the progress of life and birth and death. And everybody does it without exception. Without exception. So why should I be an exception? That was a grin. In a way, I am an exception already. So, you know, at some point, I should retire.

[33:24]

I don't like the idea of retiring. When I come to Zendo, it energizes me. I feel very energized when I come here. And I have a lot of students. A lot of people kind of have this relationship. And so I don't want to drift away and all that. But I will. I will retire. And my wonderful student, Ozan, since I will become the abbot. He's already the vice abbot. And I want you to relate to him as the Abbot. And I want him to relate to you as the Vice Abbot.

[34:30]

And I want you to support him. It's not easy to have somebody take your place unless you are totally one with that person. So, my favorite student, somebody said to me recently, or intimated, that I have favorite students. And I said, there are people who may feel that I am their favorite teacher, but they're not my favorite students. I don't have favorite students. And if I do have a favorite students, it shows up. We don't always see eye to eye and everything. We're totally different personalities, but he's my favorite student. And many, many years ago, I decided that he would be my successor. So I would like you, what I would like you to do is ask, what would you like?

[35:35]

I'm asking you, what would you like to see in an abbot? What would you like to see in an abbot? How would you like to see yourself relating to Ozon, and how would you like to see Ozon relating to you? That's, instead of me telling you all about it, like you. inquire about it. And then to inquire... So I think at some point, maybe at the end of the talk, to have some people give yourself a chance to think, how would you like to see you and Hosanna practicing together? Because that's the thing.

[36:36]

It's not me. because I will be out of it in that sense. So the question is, well, what will I do when he is the Abbot? So what people usually do at Zen Center, I usually follow Zen Center's protocol. Usually the retired Abbot is called the senior Dharma teacher. So to take a Dharma teacher role and be around as the old man, you know. I don't have to really do anything. All I have to do is be present. So I think that's a good role for me, to just be present and relate to my students. New students will be Hozon students.

[37:38]

to Sangha, not just to support, but to be critical. Not feel that the Abbot is the boss, but the Abbot, you have to have, my feeling is, there has to be a focal point. And the focal point is the Abbot. The Abbot sets a tone through there. through their behavior, through the way they handle themselves, through the way they relate to people, the way they relate to problems and circumstances and anxieties and so forth, and vision and direction. But the vision and direction is not simply that person's. It has to be tested through the students. I think that Hosan's vision is compatible with everyone.

[38:45]

He has a wide view of the Buddhist world, travels a lot, maybe too much, gets caught up in that. So you have to be careful to remind you that this is what he is exactly. And although he can travel, he didn't get caught by having to attend every invitation. He has to be able to know my place is at BVC with you guys. So that's his challenge. One of the challenges. I totally trust. that this will all work out if we're not too anxious and not too idealistic. So then there is, what is this?

[40:01]

Well, anyway. The senior students, you know, people, oh, so-and-so left, it's anger, you know, if they're older, that's good. I think senior students, we should help them if they feel like they can or would like to really be out on their own in some way. Yeah. do that and not feel that we're losing something when somebody leaves. We're expanding Sandra in many ways. Anyway, I don't want to talk about that because it's too much discussion. What is

[41:02]

What will happen when everything is over, when this virus is over? Nobody knows. We just look at circumstances and deal with it, as we have always been. We don't have a problem. We don't know what will happen, so stop worrying about it. And this may be related to the question, what does the new normal look like after the virus? There won't be any new normal. Just every moment is a new normal, moment by moment. And what remains the same and what has changed and who else? Just be open to the flow of things. So what is inspiring and encouraging right now?

[42:07]

What I see right now, everybody's, you know, in a situation where we're all confined. That's the great problem. Wonderful. Why is that so bad? You should be able to practice alone. I remember wondering. Back in the 60s, we used to say, gee, wouldn't it be great to be in jail? Because then we could practice ourselves in jail. No, not a good idea. But we are in jail in a certain sense. And this is our opportunity to find out. How do I practice when I'm confined in a place? I don't want to very freely comply. You know, it's semi-combined, it's not real. But still, you know, I myself, I have to confess, enjoy, especially in the beginning, enjoy being, not having to be obligated for anything and just being at home and doing what needs, what I want to do and not worry about time or

[43:31]

obligation or any of that stuff. It's just like being in heaven, in a way. So, there's a thousand books that haven't been read. I have, you know, two book collections of records that haven't been read. There's, you know, The garden, the field, you know, just taking care of things that come up. What else, what more could you ask for? Sojin Roshi? I don't know, we're probably going over time. Yes, yes. That time has come, Sojin. The time has come to end lecture.

[44:34]

Time has come to give a little lecture. Another lecture. Yes, please. Yes. Time to end lecture. Would you like to take one question? Yeah, let's have some questions. Okay, one or two. That's it. Good people, if you could raise... Your hand, the blue hand, the nonverbal hand, I'll just call on one or two people, and then we'll bring it to a close. If you press on participants, ladies and gentlemen, everybody's name will come up on the right-hand side of your screen. And on that, right in there, there's a hand, a blue hand, and you can just raise it, and I'll call on you. Wonderful, Ross. I will unmute you. Ross would... Ross, go ahead and ask a question. Thanks. Thank you, Sojin. Speak up. Thank you, Sojin. I look forward to practicing with Hozan as Abbott.

[45:36]

And I was wondering about criticism and critique. Criticism often gets a bad rap. And some of my closest times with you is when we've been in deep discussions and kind of criticizing or being critical. about our different sides and points of view. But within that criticism, there was intimacy. So how does one practice critiquing or criticizing, questioning another, and maintain that intimacy that I had with you? This is what I want to have with Hosan and everybody here in our sangha. Well, the criticism, it's a complex thing. question but criticism is about the subject it's not about each other and so what happens is we we connect the person with the subject and then when we criticize the subject we're criticizing the person so uh i remember my suzuki roshi once said if my students quarrel with each other i'll leave

[46:54]

I remember saying that. If my students quarrel with each other, I'll leave. So stick with the subject and not criticizing the person. Will do. Thank you. Any final questions? Raise of the hand. All right. Let's call it a day. No, let's not call it a day yet. Yes, sir. I want somebody to ask a question because don't be scared. Please. While we're intimate, you can raise your hand or just go ahead and unmute yourself. Let's take it. Be a little risky and unmute yourself and just ask the question. Yes. Speak up. You know, Sojin just asked very plainly, you know, what do we want to see in an abbot?

[48:00]

And I support Hozan as our abbot. And of course, I love Sojin and Hozan both. I really want to see if I'm just saying to myself, what is the abbot? I want to see the joy in practice and honoring Zazen, someone who can like settle in their body. And I really know that Hosan does like to travel, but I also want him to know that I support him in those ways. But those are three things that are so important to me. Just honoring the Zazen posture, joy in our practice, and kind of settled and really with the body. Not a question, I guess. Well, thank you. I appreciate your courage to talk about that. I really want you to be courageous, and I want you to be honest, courageous, and not indulging in anger or indulging in self-centeredness, but our work is toward letting go of self-centeredness and letting Buddha come forth.

[49:16]

So I could just, I could keep talking about this. I have a lot more to say, but maybe another talk. So thank you for attending and I hope I didn't bore you and listen to you. Please find your way in the present situation without self-centeredness or self-hypnial. and help your practice. If you can do your practice, if we can do our practice thoroughly, that will help everybody, unbeknownst to yourself. Thank you very much.

[50:08]

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