When not even a single thought is produced, is there any fault or not? Do you have any comments? Don't all speak at once, please. There is another translation that offers a different entry to the question. And that's when not even a single thought arises Because the word arising implies a passive observation of what arises, whereas to produce is an activity.

[01:05]

Yeah. Well, both should be considered, both ways of looking at it. Yes, genau. In our group we were wondering why you only gave us the first part of this dialogue as something to consider as a task. And then we were wondering is the non-producing of thoughts, is that a practice in our lineage?

[02:19]

And is that something that we ought to strive for? And then we were also wondering, why does this monk doubt this practice? For me, the teacher could have said, Oh, you're still hanging there. Try it. Let the soil fall out of the bucket. And for me, the teacher also could have said, oh, that's where you're still stuck. You could also try drop the bottom from the bucket. OK.

[03:22]

Those were good questions that came up in your group. responses, answers, feelings about the questions? Well, we also talked about Mount Sumeru. And as one participant pointed out in mythology, Mount Sumeru is at the center of the universe. And this not to be separated from the universe. And somebody also referred to it as the mountain practice, the practice on the cushion as the mountain practice.

[04:25]

And an aspect or a part of that practice is also real non-intentionality. Okay. Yeah. Like in the direction of no gaining ideas. No gaining, no intention at all. Just sitting. Okay. Okay. Yes, do it here. I was also in the Jeraiz group. I find this practice the monk has of not producing a thought. I experience that in myself as an effort, as a practice and as an effort.

[05:44]

And to maintain that state is very difficult. And I'm finding the image of this mountain where clouds are coming in whatever form. And the mountain being not perturbed or not touched by it, not affected by it. That's also an effort. But that's more life because all kinds of things arise. And they are also produced over and over again. And the image of the mountain comprises a lot, comprises everything, not just trying to maintain the state of not having thoughts.

[07:21]

Okay. In our group, we were wondering how far reaching is the statement, what is a thought? Yeah. Is what is meant, is that just a discursive thought or a concept, the way that we understand it in ordinary thinking? Or is what is meant any form of mental activity, so that could also be an emotion or something?

[08:32]

And that makes a difference with regard to what the monk is asking about. And the second question was the frame in which the monk is asking about a mistake or a fault. whether this is about whether this is the question about the mistake he might be making in practice with regard to what he's practicing um Or whether it's a wider question like, is that the right kind of attitude to not have thoughts at any moment, to not have a single thought at any moment?

[09:49]

Well, at any moment that would be impossible, but at some moments. In jedem Moment wäre unmöglich, aber in einigen Moment. And then we spoke about how difficult it is just on the basis of this short question to sense, to feel the state of mind of the monk. Because if we just look at the question, if no thought arises, then there would also not be a thought about whether there is a fault or not. ...

[10:51]

But if he's asking if this is a question in the sense of whether this is a correct or the right path for practice and how to proceed on that path, then that's a very different kind of question. Okay. All those things should be thought through. Yeah. Yeah, all these things should be thought through. Suzanne? For me, the question arises For me, the question that interests me the most is the question, what is the meeting between the disciple and the teacher, or how does that meeting occur? And then also the question is, like Dieter mentioned, is that really a serious question or does the student want to test the teacher?

[12:14]

And the Sibylline answer from the young man Berg to Nero, there arises now a question with me, namely in the first paragraph it says, opens doors and also puts out a shard of linen. What did you say, Sibylline? It's from Sybil. No, like an answer coming from the depth. It sounds good anyway. It's something for you.

[13:31]

A word no one knows. The answer comes from the depths, but it's not a direct answer. As far as I am, I was always asked... So these answers, she's referring to a particular kind of answers from Greek mythology. They came from the depths and through the smoke. Like an oracle? Yeah. But they weren't direct answers. Yeah, that's what oracles usually are careful. Yeah. Oracular, yeah. And now what does that mean, that he's putting out a bowl of glue? Now is Mount Sumeru like a bowl of glue? The big one, yeah.

[14:32]

The big one, yeah. Yeah. Gerald mentioned, why did I emphasize this first part of the dialogue or the confrontation or encounter? Well, I mean, we have to start somewhere. We might as well start with the first part of it. And also, I think you want to be able to take a young man's position, but you also want to take the monk's position.

[15:38]

That's we looking at the koan are in the monk's position. At least initially. And I think... If we are in the monk's position, we want to see if we can have some experience of the monk's position. And I want to make a koan like this, not some kind of exercise in information and logic. But I want to make it... It ought to be a kind of practical matter in our life.

[16:41]

Yeah, so Dorothea brought up how she... experiences or finds it difficult to maintain the experience of no thoughts appearing or being produced. And then Gerald again mentioned about Is this our lineage practice to not produce a single thought or have a thought arise? Yeah, of course. And then what Dieter said again, What kind of mental formation are we speaking about when we say thought?

[18:00]

Or do we mean any experience of feeling, emotion, et cetera? But of course, such a statement without producing a single thought aber so eine Aussage ohne einen einzigen Gedanken hervorzubringen, is a stands for or is a representative in this koan, steht natürlich für oder ist in diesem koan repräsentativ, all aspects of our practice, für alle Aspekte unserer Praxis, isn't anyone who sits down to do Zazen sort of wondering, I wish I didn't think so much, And isn't to wish you didn't think so much something like not producing a single thought? It's just on the same spectrum.

[19:02]

And is this wishing not to think too much not also something like not bringing up a single thought? That's in the same spectrum. Yes, Degmar? Yes, I also found that very interesting this morning in the lecture, because in the end it is always I found it quite interesting this morning in the lecture, just like Susanne said, in the end this is always about the direct contact, the direct meeting between teacher and disciple. And I was also wondering when we were asking the question this afternoon, is it really about the question or isn't it also or mainly about the contact, the meeting between teacher and disciple?

[20:19]

a teacher adds pain to a student to bring him into the present situation. And in the group, we were discussing examples of when a teacher causes a pain for a disciple. Never. So in order to bring the disciple into the immediate moment. And then we also came to the conclusion in the group that it is basically also about Doxan, that we do not deal with our pre-finished thoughts even the last half hour before we are there, And then we were discussing also that it's like in every dokusan to not come into the meeting with all these prefabricated thoughts that we had been producing for the past half hour, but how can we actually enter the situation which is all aligned towards that immediate short meeting?

[22:04]

I've been there. Da war ich auch schon. Yes, someone else, yes. Christo. As I read the sentence for the first time, how is it not to create a single thought? At that moment it was a feeling or a memory When I read the sentence for the first time and asked myself what is it like not producing a single thought then I have this memory of one time an experience of real openness and width, wideness. That's when we discussed, talked about the koan number two with Bodhidhamma's vastness.

[23:11]

And I took that in because it just also brings up so much joy and ease, this feeling of open vastness. Dass ich das jetzt mir ab dem Moment wieder sehr hergeholt habe, auch im Alltag, wirklich zu schauen, wann wird ein Gedanke erzeugt, natürlich ununterbrochen, aber trotzdem die ganze Zeit dran zu sein, ist sehr interessant. so that I made it a task for myself also in daily life to check when is the thought produced, which is of course all the time, but still to stay with that question is interesting. And back to the thought of the difficulty to think less during the sassen, or even partly in everyday life, And back to Dorothea's point, the difficulty of thinking little or not in zazen and also of course in daily life and the difficulty of that and how we keep rubbing against that.

[24:48]

For me, it's just a matter of feeling. For me, and that's just on the level of a feeling, there is a very close connection to the image of Mount Sumeru. And this image that the water cannot wet it, that the sky cannot cover it, and that the earth cannot support it, all of that fits perfectly, fits very well. Yes.

[25:56]

We have received a lot of offers concerning thinking. And the first thing we find in meditation is that there is a lot of thinking, at least that's what all beginners say again and again, and I think also in the future, that it is actually uninterrupted thinking. And the first thing we notice is that there's a lot of thinking, at least that's what all beginning meditators, it's the first thing they notice. And I think also long-time practitioners sometimes I think are just thinking uninterruptedly. And then we have this invitation to not invite thoughts for tea. and the invitation or offer to think non-thinking, or the word hisheriyo, the noticing before thinking, and these are all fine nuances that I can try out, what helps me best, or fine nuances to practice with my thinking, or that somehow

[27:01]

And these are all fine nuances for me to practice with my thinking and to categorize or to notice the thinking. And then I need to notice how does this monk now help me with my thinking and practice. and for me this word arising just makes a difference because that creates a certain distance and then i'm not so active anymore i can let it arise or not let it arise but i'm not so actively involved okay yeah yes christina

[28:26]

I liked this task because it was totally surprising for me. And then I noticed that I really hadn't been dealing with the question at all. What task? The monk's question, when not a single thought is produced, is their fault. And for me it was quite valuable in our group how we explored that together. And just the situation itself to sit there on a summer day and in a relaxed way just share.

[29:52]

And there was a tremendous amount of trust that we just did it grappled with the question in that way. And for me that was a process to first of all notice that now there is a question that I initially really didn't know what to do with. And then we also spoke about what it means for us to ask a question. And that for me was quite significant. And some in our group spoke about their speechlessness. How difficult it is to go to a teacher and ask a question. And what question do you ask? And how to deal with the very fact that it's possible to ask a question.

[31:21]

And at the same time being speechless. And I think we all know that situation. Yes, maybe so. While you were speaking, I had an image that instead of speaking to me as a teacher, you just spoke to this white marble statue, and we had a little recorder behind it. And so later I would listen to the recordings and you'd find it easier to speak to the marble statue maybe than to me. And then we could have some steam arising. While you were speaking, I had an inner image of how it would be if instead of speaking to me as a teacher, you just spoke to the marble statue. And that oracular tradition in Greece was the oracles often were in caves, which had semi-poisonous gases, which were psychedelic. And so these guys were not only in the cave, they were also stoned.

[32:21]

The headmaker, no? In the statement, is there any fault or not? There's also an implied also. Darin liegt auch ein implizites auch. because the implied also is, is there also any fault or not?

[33:38]

So, because much of Buddhist practice, or at least Zen practice, has an implication that the thoughts are a problem, your fault may be that you think too much, etc., So we can understand it. What Yan Min is hearing is this monk is saying, geez, it's always a mistake if I'm thinking too much. Is there any mistake if I don't think? So then that brings up the thing, is it a mistake to think? Is there any fault in thinking? So that's being questioned also in this question.

[34:39]

And then this raises the question, is it really a mistake to think? Is there a mistake in thinking? And that then raises this question again. Yes, Agatha. In the beginning I believed that I would only be interested in the first part of the question. What kind of experiences do I have with conditions where I don't think? At first I thought that I'm only interested in the first aspect of the question, which is, what is my experience of states in which I don't think? and then as we were speaking in the group I suddenly realized that I sometimes also have the feeling that I can make a mistake doing that because if I bring the activity of being attentive in too little

[36:01]

Then that can be hours and hours of tired, just, what's the word, just dozing. Dozing? I don't know how you say it. Dozing? Sure, why not? Like you're half asleep. Yeah, I know that. And just flows of images and so forth. Daydreaming. And just then I sometimes have a feeling that I'm becoming dumber and not clearer. I've noticed. I'm just teasing you. And this response, bringing in the mountain, I just took that as a hint of what the quality can feel like so that it doesn't go off into that direction, into the dosing direction.

[37:32]

And then this huge mountain comes in that fills everything and actually is everything. And then for me, and maybe that's one step too far, but for me immediately this feeling comes up that there can also be a different kind of energy, that that is being pierced or something like that. But at the moment, currently I'm just practicing the mountains. Okay. Alan? The question that you said that it implies that thinking

[38:42]

is an error, that there's something wrong with thinking. This concept of original sin pops up in my mind. There's something wrong. Yeah. And these are the feelings that arose when I... Yeah. Yeah, I have somebody I know quite well feels that it can't be good unless there's suffering involved. Yeah. Okay. Yes. I would find it interesting to ask, what are the consequences of non-thinking or Hishiryo?

[40:14]

In our group we also discussed that it can change the way we function. That in daily life situations, not necessarily on the cushion, but in daily life we found that through years of practice we function differently. Not so logically structured, not so in a linear way. And one could get frightened by that and think that there's something wrong with that. And the other way around, in letting thoughts arise, it's interesting to examine how that occurs and how we do that.

[41:37]

How we can make it happen to let thought, not to be afraid of thoughts arising and to trust what wants to arise there. Or when somebody else lets a thought arise or a question, or for example, to say Sumeru. And then to wonder how we achieve it to put into words what arises. Okay. Thank you. Yes, Manuela? Thank you for appearing. We haven't seen you for so long. We've all been missing you. Danke, dass du aufgetaucht bist. Wir haben dich schon so lange nicht gesehen.

[43:06]

Günther, too. Günther auch. Yeah. Trying to make us feel better. Versuch, dass wir uns besser fühlen. Yes, go ahead. Ich bin mit dir hier. This tension between errors and non-errors I find this tension between fault and not a fault and to let thoughts arise and to produce thoughts. And for me, that's all a really provocative field that somehow makes me feel awake. And I've taken the response to those questions, even though that wasn't part of the idea, but the response of Mount Sumeru to be, to fall back onto that response. .

[44:35]

And for me, surprisingly, what arose is not so much the urge to seek a response or an answer, but also in the group there were just continuously new questions were brought up. And that is also like the red thread that's being interrupted. Through that, durch diese was, durch diese Spannung hast du gesagt, kommt man in dieser, durch die Spannung kommt man in die Absichtslosigkeit? Nee, also das... with the red thread, it also brings, when you interrupt with the red thread, another kind of tension out between

[45:56]

And the interruption of the red thread that brings in an additional tension between an intention that I bring into practice. And because it's interrupted, there's also the non-intentionality. So I don't go directly towards that state, and I can't grasp the state. Okay. Thank you. We're supposed to stop at six, I think, right, about? I think anyway, I hope maybe it's the case that the most interesting thing for us as practitioners in the West is to ask what's going on here.

[47:26]

What kind of world is this? Now, I've given you a number of distinctions that seem to be useful to you. One is the difference between entity thinking and activity noticing. And here I'm making a distinction between entity thinking and activity noticing. Now I know that the distinctions in English can have a dimensionality and power energy that would be different when translated.

[48:42]

And nothing that's very subtle can be translated exactly. Okay, and that, so from that point of view, you ask, you say to yourself, what this monk is doing is an activity. Yeah, and what the young man is doing is an activity. These are two activities meeting, not a question and a response. In the midst of the activity of the encounter, the monk says, without producing a single thought, is there any fault or not?

[49:52]

And again, Youngman then speaks of, he's throwing something into the situation, into the activity of the situation, Mount Semeru, wonderful Meru. You would know if you read something about Mount Sumero. Mount Sumero is often described as an hourglass shape. And many times you see the pedestals of a Buddha statue as a series of little steps, seven or various numbers. And it gets smaller. And sometimes there's a big oval then.

[51:12]

A flattened sphere. And then there's similar steps going out. And then the Buddha sits on that. Now, there are many, like our Amida Buddha is sitting on a lotus. Which is also often articulated as a mound coming and then a mound lifting away from it. But when it's clearly stepped up like this and then smaller and then bigger, it's considered a pedestal that represents Mount Sumeru.

[52:12]

Now, any practitioner in those days in China in the 8th or 9th century would know about... I mean, because... you were living in a tradition of practice which was also a craft tradition. And we have a little taste of that because we are in the middle of creating a practice center. And there weren't stores you could go to and just buy things.

[53:22]

You know, online you had to... Somebody carved the statue. Somebody carved the pedestal. So monks would be very familiar with, oh, this pedestal represents Mount Samaria. So Mount Sumeru would immediately be like, oh, he's saying you're sitting on the pedestal, you're a Buddha because you're sitting on a pedestal of a Buddha, Mount Sumeru, when you don't produce a single thought. And he would immediately think something like, oh, you say you are a Buddha because you are sitting on the pedestal of a Buddha.

[54:30]

Namely, you say Berg Sumeru when you say as an answer to not producing a single thought. It would just be an obvious connection like, I got to Bad Sakyam in half an hour. You must have driven then. You didn't ride a bicycle probably. Das wäre einfach für die eine ganz offensichtliche Verbindung, ungefähr so wie wenn wir heute sagen würden, ich bin in einer halben Stunde nach Bad Säckingen, nach einer halben Stunde bin ich in Bad Säckingen angekommen, dann wäre uns klar, ja, dann bist du wohl mit dem Auto gefahren, das kannst du nicht mit dem Fahrrad geschafft haben. And none of the monks had actually ever been to Mount Sumeru. They'd be still looking for it.

[55:32]

So what they've physically seen, actually touched, is this pedestal of the Buddha which represents Mount Sumeru. So there's again this sense of activity Are you saying you're sitting on a pedestal like a Buddha? Or are you now because you're like a Buddha? That's an activity, that back and forth, what's being said. How many layers are in each statement? Yeah, Brother David Steindl-Rust is a very old friend of mine from the 60s. He was at maybe the second practice period at Tassau Harbor. Er war vielleicht bei der zweiten Praxisperiode in Tassahara.

[56:52]

Anyway, and I was just going to go meet him at the plane flying back. He's 86 years old. How old is he? 86. And he's going to out-walk me, so there's hope. Der ist 87 Jahre alt oder so und der kann schneller gehen als ich, also gibt es noch Hoffnung. I was going to go pick him up at the airport with Vanya and take him to his train where he was going to this monastery where he lives much of the time in Austria. Ich wollte zum Flughafen fahren und ihn dort mit Vanya abholen und ihn zu dem Kloster bringen, wo er einen Großteil der Zeit verbringt in Austria. Yeah, that's where the monastery is. Okay. Anyway, so I was, for two and a half days or so, I was kind of feeling I had the kind of flu or something. Anyway, I wasn't feeling well at all and I didn't want to expose him to any illness I might have.

[58:01]

I had. This was just a few days ago. But he sent me a book, recently translated, a book he did a long, long time ago, but recently translated into English. So on the first page he speaks about when he was four years old, I think. So the question was, what was your first experience of the holy, of something holy? And so, Brother David, it was Christmas time and there was some presents being unwrapped.

[59:05]

And one of the ribbons, there was a gold thread from one of the ribbons of the Christmas present wrapping. And brother David said it was Christmas time and the presents were unpacked and there was a garland and a golden thread from one of the garlands. And the little David picked up the thread and said to his mother, what is this? And his mother said, this is a hair of Jesus Christ. And Brother David said, it remained with me all my life as a feeling of something holy that's in the midst of the ordinary. So this is also, something like this is also going on here. The monk says, what about when you don't have a single thought?

[60:05]

And the young man says, something like the hair of Jesus, Mount Sumeru. Okay, so that, so the other thing I'd like to point out, and then we'll stop, is these two guys are meeting. Das andere, worauf ich gerne noch verweisen möchte, und dann hören wir auf, ist also diese zwei Männer, die begegnen sich. And what they're speaking about, they are existing in a world, alive in a world in which they assume everything is changing and activity, interdependent and so forth.

[61:15]

Die existieren, leben in einer Welt, in der sie davon ausgehen, dass alles im Wandel begriffen ist, alles ist wechselseitig miteinander verbunden und so weiter. Everything is an intersection. Alles ist eine Schnittstelle. A merging, a confluence, etc. Ein Verschmelzen, eine Einmündung und so weiter. So what kind of merging or intersection is happening here? Okay, now who are these two fellows? Okay, there are persons who have articulated their interior experience through Zazen. Das sind zwei Menschen, die ihre innere Erfahrung durch Zazen artikuliert haben. So this is also asking you, if you read something like this, do I articulate my inner experience or my experience?

[62:17]

Has it been changed through practicing Zazen? So I suggested today, you can't do Zazen regularly without having experience of attentional agency. Now, the observant practitioner would ask him or herself What is this agency? Is this agency that's deciding to practice or not practice? Is that self? Or is it the 3,000 coherences? Is this a me that's doing this? But in any case, there's a sense of doing it, so let's call that attentional agency.

[63:38]

And then you notice, not just the activity, when I say attentional activity, What you see is the activity, you don't see the attention. People in their ordinary life see the activity and they don't think, that's my attention which is seeing the activity. As soon as you see that, you're a practitioner. And then as soon as you articulate that and notice it as something that's a consequential part of your experience, Okay, so in Zazen we notice that, oh, there's this activity, but this activity is taking hold of our attention and our energy, and that we can also separate the activity from the attention and the energy.

[65:13]

So the practitioner says, wow, that's really interesting and I can separate attention and activity. And then you can say, yes, I am trying to do Zazen. One of the things I'm trying to do here is Zazen and I'm trying to sit still. Oh, when I separate attention from activity and bring attention to the body as awareness, then I can sit still and straight. And attention then becomes a kind of a luminous fluid treasure. And if through the experience, simple experience of doing Zazen every day for 10 years,

[66:27]

Or sometimes. You've gotten used to flooding or filling your physical bodily experience, your posture, with attention instead of your thoughts. Or in addition to your thoughts. Now, if you do this regularly and you notice that you're doing it regularly, what happens when you do it regularly? It evolves much more thoroughly and quickly. And when you have begun to not have the majority of your energetic attention located in thinking, But now located in your simple bodily awareness.

[67:51]

What you've learned just by simply trying to learn to sit still. Your body and your life becomes different. Okay. And your energetic field, peripersonal space, etc., and much more than that, becomes much more alive and interrelated and overlapping with other people. So these aren't just two people coming together. They're two people who already have articulated their physicality and their mentality and their animality. And they're engaged almost like lovers.

[68:58]

And in that context, they're having this conversation. So then you can ask yourself, am I articulating my experience and energy in such a way? That's the prequel, is that the right word, to this koan. Okay, thank you very much.

[69:34]

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