settled with this life. But in this story, he hadn't quite made it yet. After we don't know how many years he'd been studying at this point in the story, it doesn't say how old, how close to death by John was. But there is a, it's nice to be able to feel, I like these stories, it's the same question, three different responses, but all of them, you know, in some sense, all of them are happening right now. All three of those. And so I would leave that with you, you know, that question, can you... All three of these types of responses in yourself in relationship to can you act, can you bring yourself forth without any effort? Because you can, you can't. But can you see it in the effort, in the process, in yourself?

[01:04]

Are you capable of these three different ways? One not quite making it, one making it in this way, one making it in another way. In some sense, again, a summary of the practice is, moment by moment, you always are yourself, and yourself does come forth, Can you find that way of being such that you come forth with no effort, that you are who you are with no effort? Can you find that? Yes. So the first one, the second one was don't speak. And the third, maybe, could part of the problem be that you have this either-or thing going on? Yeah. Well, also, you know, either-or, but also, Is it possible? His attitude was, is it possible? Can you do this, teacher? Can I do this?

[02:04]

So if the teacher said yes, then he might have said, well, can I? And the teacher might have said yes, or said, well, obviously not. But the teacher didn't get into whether he could or not. He said, I lost my... If my descendants are interested in whether I can do it or not, I'm done for. They missed the point. Because actually what I just asked them to do from the beginning was, please act free of the issue of whether you can do something or not. Please talk what you isn't doing. Please speak without a doubt. That's what he's asking them to do. So then the monk says, well, can you do this or not? Basically. Well, I lost my disciples. He could have said, I lost you. And in a way, he did lose him. But not really. Not in a long time. Just today. That's all you care about. Today's a total flop. I don't understand that question.

[03:08]

Question? Yeah. You don't understand how he was so good? Yeah. How he was passed. Passed. Passed. It basically sounds like he passed the ball. Passed the buck. Passed the buck. Back. Well, the teacher passed the buck to him. He didn't quite say, no, he said, he said, I passed the buck to you. I asked you to act beyond, I asked you to speak without making any, doing something. Now you tell me to give it a try. But I don't refuse. You didn't do it. I don't refuse to do it without doing something. I don't refuse to do that. It's just that if I do, I'll lose my disciple. How come he'll lose?

[04:13]

Because he'll show the disciple how to do, not do it. But he won't. He's actually doing it. But he's not pointing to what he's doing. Guishan becomes the master. The teacher says, here, you speak without making it into action. Then Guishan becomes the teacher and says, you speak without, respectfully, teacher, you speak without making it into karma. Let's see you do it. Show me how, or whatever. He just says, it's not that I... He just said, if I show you how, I'll lose my disciples. Who's the other one who didn't get it? Oh, well, how about Bajang? Does Bajang got it? Yeah. I had the same feeling about the first case.

[05:24]

I could read it either way depending on whether it was coming from a client who was unknowing or unknowing. Like, I don't know, you do it. Or, you know, sure, I don't know, you do it. You've got to get to the place where when the teacher asks you to act, okay, without it being current, that you would act a different way from Guishan. Okay? And also, well, excuse me, that you speak without resorting to words. And you speak now without resorting to words. And it doesn't sound like Guishan. But it is your real, you feel, I'm speaking now without using words. Okay? I'm free of words and I'm talking. Because I'm free of words, I can talk. Finally I can talk. in words anymore while I'm talking. I'm free. And I'm sure I'm free by talking. Okay?

[06:27]

Here I am. This is the way I'm talking. Okay? And not only that, but I can tell you Guishan's off. Because maybe you'll say that. But you might also say, and now I see that Guishan's off. Now I agree with the commentators. But you might say, no, I do not agree with the commentators. You might say, Guishan would never have talked this way if he understood. And also I can say that if I would have said, I refuse, I don't refuse to speak. I just said I don't want to lose. If I said that, I would only have said that after Guishan failed. You might know that. But you might also know that this statement by, this statement, this way of talking by Bai Zhang shows that Guishan did understand. You might be able to say that. But either you have to come up and have that be truly yours, or Wu Feng's response and have that truly be yours, or have your own response, which is not theirs, and have that truly be yours, and then you turn back and you look at the case and you say, these guys are all off.

[07:40]

And you say that, but you say that and it's not you doing something called talking. And that speech, you know, condemns all the Zen masters. It puts them in their place. Except for Yun Yan, who is your, what do you call it, your ancestor, so you shouldn't be nice to him. They have to come from what you have some feeling for, for what you have some experience of, of I know, I know that this speech is not coming, this speech is pure of the idea that I'm doing it. And you can be challenged, and someone can say, oh, no, I see you still holding on to some identity, speaking from that spot.

[08:49]

And you respond to that, and you say, and here's my response to that, and that shows me even more. And the person says, oh, that shows me even more. And you keep going back. You settle. And maybe finally the person says, I give up. You're right. You're true. You're not holding on to yourself while you're talking. That's why I was wondering on the question why I thought he was saying that and was correct in saying, I mean, what I thought he might be correct, was because he, to answer, would have put himself into it. So he said, so it was like, in a sense, tricking the teacher, saying, okay, you answer that. And the teacher then would be answering back, saying, well, if I answered, then I would be putting myself into it. That's nice interpretation. But still, that kind of interpretation is not the way you're going to verify whether, you know, whether he was really on.

[09:59]

You've got to get to the place where you have an answer to this question. Until you can answer that question and feel like you are answering it, without relying on karma. You don't really know. Regardless of the commentators. And regardless of... You don't really know. They might have written this down wrong. But when you have your own sense, then you can come in and you can say what you think of them. And it's not just reasoning. But we can reason, it's okay. It's alright. But you have to get to your own point. If you see, first of all, a point of living your life without making your life into something that you do. If you think you have a moment like that, well, then you've got a moment where you think it's like that. And then you should go test it. Come and tell me. Show me what it's like for you to walk where you're not doing it.

[11:02]

Where the whole world is doing it. Show it to me. See if I can appreciate it. Maybe someone else would like to see it too, like Garth. It comes from pure experience. It comes from pure experience. It comes from your pure experience, yes. That's where these stories have to be understood from, from your experience. And it's clear what's being asked here. Or, if what I say is being asked here, if you study this case and you say, that's not what it is, well, tell me what it has been. Tell me what that means, other than what I've been saying. I'd be happy to hear. They look to me like a riddle. How would this be accomplished? And the first answer was, well, it would be accomplished by just letting you speak. And the second one said, it would be accomplished if no one spoke.

[12:09]

And the third one said, I don't believe it could be accomplished. Or I wonder if it could be accomplished. I wonder, right. I have doubts about it, about the ability for this to happen. But they look like riddles. Like something you could just say, here's how I would do it. They look like riddles, how would it be done, separate from how it would be done. Well, they look like riddles, yeah. What do you call it? A lot of times they call these koans riddles. They're often called riddles. They look like that from a certain perspective. From another perspective, they look like a flower. What were you saying? It looks like conversation. It is conversation, but some people look at the conversation and think the conversation is a riddle. They think it's like a flower blossom. But some people, they look at a flower blossom and they think it's a riddle. Right? Even though some other people think, no, no, it's perfectly scientific.

[13:11]

You take these various things and pour water on it and this thing just goes... But from another point of view, it looks like a riddle. How could that happen? How could that flower blossom? It's very mysterious. It's a miracle. Some people think these are miracles. But for me, part of my background is I grew up in a Christian church and so on. And to me, the Christian church, a lot of the activities of Jesus look like riddles. And the riddle-like or miracle, they were so miraculous, I couldn't understand how to relate to them. But these stories, to me, I don't take them as riddles. To me, they're more like I can relate to them. So that's why I'm in a Zen school rather than in the Christian tradition, but actually I feel like my sort of comment I would make is that I feel like that America is actually closer to this than they are to what is Christianity.

[14:14]

What do you mean America is closer to? I mean the actual life is closer to this. To this kind of like that you would know what it is, rather than go according to Christian or Jewish dogma. But they know what it is, though. Huh? They know what it is, though. That's what I'm saying, is that they know what it is. That's not Christian to know what it is. That's not Christianity. That's American. It's more of a meritic thing that you know. I heard this thing on the radio when I was coming out of Tassajara one time. There was this gospel song, a guy sang, would Jesus wear his Rolex in his Mercedes Benz? If Jesus was alive today, would he be driving a Mercedes Benz? So it's partly criticizing some of these wealthy evangelists, right? But it's also, I think, asking, would Jesus go along with the material American culture?

[15:19]

And I thought, well, there's only one way to find out. Be Jesus. Then find out, if you're Jesus, would you wear a Rolex? Timex? I had a Timex, but... But this Timex is an Iron Man Timex. And Iron Man's, you know, named for Bodhisattva. Yeah. You can't stop this time. I was just going to make a comment that Jesus didn't go along with the material culture of his time. He walked away from his love and care and told his disciples to do it, so he probably wouldn't get into it here. Well, that's what I'm saying. On the radio thought is that he didn't go along with it then, so on the radio they thought he wouldn't go along with it now. Right? But I'm saying, how do you know? Unless you're Jesus. Because maybe his culture wasn't material enough. You know? Maybe the Jews were actually, you know, not really into it and that. And really the Romans were materialistic and they're the ones that got converted.

[16:23]

So anyway, I'm saying your reasoning is good. And most people, and a lot of Christians, a lot of Christians have interpreted that since Jesus rejected that, that the Christians should not be materialistic. Right? But the Christians are very materialistic. And one Tibetan teacher was wearing a gold watch, and someone told him he was planning a trip to America. Bye. Bye. And one of his disciples said, you don't wear that gold watch in America because people won't like you wearing a gold watch. Well, I wore gold shoes then, too. Gold watch. Cheers. So the Christian thing, I think, there is a strong Christian thing of Jesus rejected materialism, so Christianity rejects materialism. But what, you know, but what actually American Christians do, they aren't really Christians, you could say. They're not that much like Christians. They're more like Buddhists in the sense that they go according to what they know.

[17:30]

What they know means something to them. And it's based on what they know that a lot of them make their decisions. But that's not really Christianity. According to Christian tenets, it's supposed to be on faith. You don't need to know. You don't need to know. As a matter of fact, you're not supposed to go on those things. But a lot of American Christians have had... A lot of Americans who were once Christians had experiences of knowing. And they started these... kept associating with Jesus or Christianity, but they're not like Christianity in a lot of ways. They're more like what I'm recommending as the way you verify what this means. So rather than philosophizing and arguing philosophically about what the Bible means, find out what the Bible means by your own experience. Rather than discussing, find out what it means by you responding to Bi-John's question. By you speaking with your moksha. and your throat shut, and your lips together.

[18:33]

Find a way to speak that transcends that. Yes? When you first passed the thing on, I gave it a quick look sitting here reading it. I said, I know the answer to that. I will speak through actions. That was the initial, you know, do as I do, I say. Could that be any expectation of perhaps the only way to speak is not with your mouth? The only way to speak is with your mouth shut. The only way to speak is by example. is what you just said, where did that come from? Do as I do and do as I say?

[19:35]

No, you're speaking. You're speaking just now. Was that an example? No, but what I'm saying right now... I know the content of what you're saying. It's not being disrespectful, but it's nonsense. In my heart, I knew the answer to that. And as soon as the words come out, I, in one sense, corrupt them. Plus, as we said before, words are not the things. Words are words. Right. Action to action, belief is belief. Right. Sometimes they meet, sometimes they don't. Yeah. Now, I think this story is talking about something different. It's not saying that words are something more than words. It's saying, can you produce them, whatever they are, or can they come out and live in the world without you producing?

[20:36]

In that case, the answer is, don't know, probably not. Well, that's your answer. Okay? In other words, you're not saying, yes, I can speak without making that internal action. In other words, I'm saying you can live your life without making it into something you do. I'm saying that to you. And if you're saying you don't know if it's true, fine. I'm saying you can't. I'm saying that what you do moment by moment, what you think moment by moment, what you say moment by moment, that can be something which you don't see as your own personal action. You can understand it entirely differently. And I'm saying that if you understand it in terms of your personal action, you're going to be relatively miserable. If you understand it as something that happens, which is life, you'll be free. I'm saying it is possible to be free in this particular way, which is a very important door to freedom.

[21:39]

Everything that's happening now can happen without you overlaying your own control on it. I'm saying that is possible. If you wonder if it is, fine. But if, as you wonder, you're not appreciating and realizing that it is, then that's the third story. Really? You're talking about owning it? Yeah, I'm saying owning it. If you think you own your actions, if you think you own your life, I'm saying you're adding something to it. However, I would also say, if you think you own your life, you should admit that you think you own it. It's very important to confess that. That's karma. That's what the retreat later this month is about. If you do think that you do do things on your own, then you should confess that. It's very important. Because you're going to get in trouble for what you just did. So you should admit it and get ready for The day of reckoning.

[22:42]

You should get ready for the consequences, but the consequences are for what you dreamed. The consequences were for the world in which you thought you can speak by your own power, rather than the whole world acts through you. We speak, I say, we speak on behalf of the whole world. And when we speak on behalf of the whole world, rather than through our own power, we're free. Because when we speak on behalf of the whole world, we have no alternative to what we're saying. Always. And then you... One pointed and concentrated on how speech is happening rather than how you do it. You're intimate with what's happening rather than what you do. What you do is not what's happening. It's like... What you do, that isn't what's happening. What's happening includes everything, including all your supposed behaviors.

[23:49]

Hmm? In some ways, what you're saying for Americans, it's easier, I think, but also it's very counter-culture because we're taught our whole lives about, it seems like, doing and achieving and having expectations. To me, living in a material culture that we do, this is what breeds this kind of mindset. It's not just material culture. All human cultures, except for religious cultures, are cultures of personal power. Of persons. That's our thing. So, yes, it is definitely counterculture. Definitely. As material culture, if we had non-material culture, it would be counter that to any kind of... It's counter... culture in the sense of counter individual existence. Self, other, you know, this country and that country, this culture and that culture.

[24:56]

It is counter that, yes. It is counter the world. Yes, yes, yes. That's right. So therefore, it's a difficult turn for us to make. That's why we have this class, is to encourage this turn, this reversal of your attitude from I talk to you. Talk which is coming not by my power. And also, of course, before that, before we get into that practice, you should be admitting when you're acting through your personal power. In that realm, you should admit it. And if you admit it, That will set the stage for becoming able to be free of that way of living. But if you're still in that realm, you shouldn't pretend like you're not. So Liz is great because Liz is like saying she's into that and she's going to live another way.

[26:01]

So she's confessing that she's totally into that. So that's good. If you keep admitting that, gradually you'll move to being able to live another way. But some people who want to be good Zen students try to pretend that they're not doing karma, and they are, you know. Or try to do karma like that boat string guy to manipulate your karma into being this kind of karma which doesn't look like karma. Or to set your situation up so you don't have to ever fall into this thing of I do this and I do that. Better just to go ahead and admit your karma so thoroughly. Realize that's not what's happening. Karma is an illusion, but the illusion of karma is happening. But that's not happening. The illusion of karma is happening. There's a lot more besides the illusion of karma happening. It's also the emptiness of karma is happening. Co-arising of karma is happening.

[27:02]

How karma is happening is happening. How we dream up karma is happening. All that's happening. But we're not responsible for everything. We're just responsible for what we think is our own power. That's not what we have to take responsibility for. Which is our selfness, right? Which is our selfness, whatever we think that we are. It's our selfness and the idea that the self can do something else. And to whatever extent we're still caught in that, it's very helpful to admit that. It's liberating, the admission of it is part of the process of liberation. But trying to stop it is more of the same thing. But trying to reduce it is more of the same thing. And that's part of culture too.

[28:05]

American culture is, don't be so selfish. In other words, hide it. Be deceptive. It's good advice. People are telling you to hide it. It's good advice because things will go more smoothly if you learn a way to not be so selfish. It'll go more smoothly. So people try to figure out how to do that and those who figure it out really well get really along well with people. But they're totally miserable because they're super don't even know it. So they can't figure out, why am I so miserable? I'm unselfish, everybody likes me, I'm rich, you know, but I'm scared to death all the time. How come? Because any moment, that selfish person may come out, and also you missed your life. So, bring the self out with the slightest effort. Look at it, and you'll be free. Bring it out with effort is part of the process of learning how to bring it out with no effort.

[29:11]

That's part of it. We have to go through that. Who is... There's another aspect that I see in myself sometimes, so that must be why I see it in people around me, especially people close to me, and that is the victim. I can't help it. These things are happening. Never or seldom taking any... making any acknowledgement of the steps that make it to create a situation. say uh from anything from say going off and swearing at the boss and then the boss lays you off and just say boss was irrational never realizing that these they were two or three steps that took to create the situation that just throwing looks like selflessness because it's a it's a person who takes on responsibility or does not believe that they have any responsibility for anything that happens to their life it's an abandoned That looks like selflessness?

[30:14]

It looks kind of like that, but it isn't. It's a recklessness, but I can't... It works in this whole scenario. Well, I think, as you said, a recklessness goes with not observing cause and effect. Oh, it's the observation. It's resisting observation. Yeah. If you don't observe cause and effect, you can easily become reckless. which means you cannot notice when you're hurting other people. And if you notice that you're getting hurt, to not see where it came from, so then to see that you're a victim. And some people would say, but there are victims. In other words, there are beings for whom the cause and effect has nothing to do with their behavior. So I challenge that idea that something happens that's visiting another source, another universe.

[31:22]

Occasionally I imagine there are asteroids that land on people. But then we walked to the spot where the asteroid landed. And then there's always some part of it. From a distance it makes sense. And we're willing to live in a body that has bones inside. rather than being, you know, a real soggy thing that could yield. There are certain advantages to being humans and there are certain disadvantages. Basically, we've got a good situation. All of us can be Buddhas. And we don't need anything to be a Buddha other than what we've got right now. Not one additional thing. There's nothing on the list of being Buddhas that we don't all have. But there's a few extra things that we have that are none of us.

[32:29]

Basically, resistance. We resist our endowment, our nature. We resist it. That's not on the Buddha's list. Buddha doesn't have any resistance. If Buddha was like any of us, Buddha would be just like us, exactly like us, but with no resistance. So whatever amount of resistance you have to being yourself, you just would just let that fall off, and you would be Buddha. But that little tiny thing, or whatever amount it is, of resistance to being who you are, to drop just that little tiny bit, and not any more than that, or any less than that, very small, and takes quite a bit of practice to get there. And then also to do it once is good, is wonderful, is fantastic. But then to do it again and [...] again, that takes even longer.

[33:32]

So the practice really does take a tremendous amount of... an incredibly large number of experiments of... dropping the resistance, dropping the resistance, dropping the resistance, overdoing it, underdoing it, overdoing it, underdoing it, hitting it right on the mark, great, and then overdoing it, underdoing it, hitting it right on the mark, hitting it right on the mark, and gradually after 40 or 50 years, a good share of the day, or even some people all day long. But it takes a lot of experiments. How many have you done? How many experiments have you done of observing your resistance, Observing your resistance, how many? 100,000 million? That's a start. That's good. Anything else today?

[34:35]

I want to ask about Heracle's trick. They described him loosening his grasp, which happened. When I read the book, it just said, I thought of a trick. Yes? Did you hear that that was his trick somewhat? Could you tell us what you're talking about? I mean, was that in the archery? I thought I read it in the book that he held it halfway. Half as strongly once. Then he held it half of half. And then half of half of half. And so on. And finally it just went. But there was calculation leading up to this moment when it just went. I'll have to go look and see. Yeah, please go look and see. Maybe I will too. It was your experience. You knew it. You knew it. Yeah, I got back there and I lived that moment. Mm-hmm. You're leaving? Yeah. Okay. I thought the class was over at five, so.

[35:39]

TV before you go? No. Thank you. Okay. Bye-bye. Thank you. Bye. Daniel? I'd like to say that it's Julian's birthday, and I don't know if we could all sing her happy birthday. No. No? No? You'd like to close with this? Well, how about happy birthday? Okay. Happy birthday to you. [...] Thanks. How old are you? Oh, wow. That was very simple, wasn't it? Bobby. That's how old I was when I came to Zen Center. Is that how old you are when you came to Zen Center?

[36:41]

I'm 22, because I came five months ago. You came before I did. Okay, so it's how many years? Well, again, you might be faster than me, but be willing to give it at least 30. You're pretty good at it. In your case, you'd be pretty good at it. In my case, I started so bad that, you know. But you should have seen how bad I used to be. If you could see how bad I used to be, you'd realize Zen is really great. Give us an example. It's bad enough. I'll just tell you I'm worse than this. But I used to not let myself be as bad as I was. So I wasn't as happy. And everybody else wasn't either. because I tried to hold myself back. So everyone lived in constant fear of when I was going to actually lose it.

[37:42]

So then did you just be bad? That sounds really dangerous. What if you just pulled it? Well, before I was being bad, but I wasn't letting myself, so it was much worse. Because it came out unconsciously, I didn't even know it. I thought I was being good. So all these evil tendencies were coming out and doing their destructive activities without anybody even knowing about it. Without you knowing about it. Without me knowing about it. Well, they hardly knew it either because part of the evil thing I was doing was that they weren't allowed to do evil things. You think I did an evil thing? You're wrong. Sabotage. So once I started admitting that I was doing evil things, I started being a lot better, although still really bad. And you say it's dangerous, but the other way is more dangerous. Or the other way is equally dangerous, you might say, but the other way doesn't have much opportunity.

[38:50]

This at least has the opportunity to admit that you're wrong and say you're sorry. Hello. But of course, this doesn't apply to other people who aren't bad. This is just for me. For you people, you have to admit that you're good. Come out of the good closet. Anyway, everybody has to be... Some of you are really nice people. And you've been told not to be that way. Because the other people who aren't nice don't want you to get to be nice. But some people really are nice. That's their thing. But a nice person who's not herself is in big trouble. And a bad person who's not herself is in big trouble. But if a person can be who they are, they can become free.

[39:51]

They can become really free if you can be who you are. You can become free and help all beings also become free. And if I live long enough, I'll prove it. And I'll prove it because a lot of people who I encourage to be themselves will become great people. That will be my proof. A lot of people who are involved with karma will really do their karma until they become free of it and that will be my proof. You can witness that. A lot of people who are doing karma will learn how to speak Anything else you want to bring up today?

[41:04]

You got a lot of my jokes. That was good. I didn't talk much. It's okay. Forgetting my jokes. This is the first time I've ever had even a glimmer in trying to read Cohen's and feel like I'm catching some part of what I'm reading. Third or fourth time today when you read the part about a shade in my eyes. Me too. Just, oh. Just words on a page. Yeah, it's nice to have these three different ways to do the same thing. It's kind of like studying a con in a group. So, I hope this was a good selection for you. Maybe the hour, but my personal impression is that the last couple hours, the last two hours in particular, were far clearer than the hour in the morning. And I don't know whether it's just, as I say, the hour where some changes happen, or when a thing became clear.

[42:23]

Well, it's okay with me if as the day goes on things get clearer. I don't mind. And maybe it's just the hour. Or maybe it's just that you don't have much time left. Get something out of the day. There's really a difference in tone. I think on your part, too. At the hour, at the beginning. Well, thank you. Anybody like to say? I enjoyed studying Collins with you today.

[43:08]

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