May 12th, 1970, Serial No. 00231

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tape side B stoped playback early, but it appears we captured complete talk

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I thought in order to express about you wanted to express describe on a what to the thought of Zimbo as you know so well of course Zimburism can traces I can trace it's a source of Buddhism founded by Shakyamuni Buddha so if you read the the old sutra old sutra such as Stanipada or Dhammapada you will find many

[01:12]

passages which describes on the Zen Buddhism as you know Zen Buddhism means tranquility, tranquility of mind. In the least the only old type of former times the practice of Buddhism was they open just to professional people such as priest, just to priest, they try to make possible effort to reach the

[02:25]

nirvana, getting rid of the worldly affairs. For this they tried to seek for calm place, still place such as in the depths of the mountains which is isolated which was completely isolated from the city life or country life from the experience of those priest people professional priest who experienced

[03:33]

a sitting meditation in the depths of the mountain which was isolated from city life they tried to express, express their own experience how valuable they were. In will find that those wonderful experience through the practice of Zazen in the mountains and forest with the progress, development of the Buddhism, the people are people trying to

[04:41]

understand the Buddhism from different angles. They tried to understand Buddhism which was not, which was open, which was not limited to just to professional people, priest. It was, must be open to everybody, priest, layman. If you read Pannaparamita Sutra in Japanese, Pannaparamita Sutra or Vimalakirti Sutra or

[05:50]

Pannaparamita, Pannaparamita, Pideshat, Pideshat. They tried to criticize the practice of Buddhism so-called Zen Buddhism, meditation, jhana, experienced by the priest in former time. In, we are trying to divide it into two type of Buddhism, as you know one is Hinayana Buddhism, the other one is Mahayana Buddhism. In Hinayana Buddhism, it is based on the principle

[06:56]

of three types of understanding Buddhism. One is Sira, Sira means precepts, precepts. Second is Jo, in Japanese Jo means tranquility, literal meaning is tranquility, which means, which is the Zen, the Zen practice. The third one, third one is wisdom, wisdom. So in Hinayana Buddhism, they try to put stress on the Sira precepts or Zen practice and wisdom.

[07:58]

In our daily life, we have to obey the precepts taught by Buddha. Yet while we have to practice the Zen meditation, through those experience, through those, it is sure that people get, people can get the goal, which is called the wisdom. Then, they try to make every effort to follow the precepts taught by Buddha, to practice the Zen, to make every effort to get to the Nirvana, this is Nirvana, based on the wisdom.

[08:59]

On the contrary, in Mahayana Buddhism, we try to put, we try to put strong stress on the principle of wisdom, experience of wisdom first. Zen Buddhism, so the third one, the third one which the Hinayana Buddhism emphasizes, the other third, wisdom, last one, wisdom was last one for the Hinayana. In Mahayana Buddhism, the wisdom is taught, the first experience, which is a very important thing for us. Then, from this point, we try to make every effort, how to make effort to express the concrete, concrete way of, way of manifesting the wisdom.

[10:30]

Way of manifestation, way of manifestation, according to Buddhism, how to express concretely in our daily life, if Buddhism is open, not only to the professional people, the priest, but also the layman, the old people, regardless of the idea of whether they are poor or intelligent, men and women, young and old. Then, from that time, about the 2nd century, Buddhism was getting, was criticizing the Hinayana Buddhism.

[11:39]

Hinayana Buddhism was not good enough for, for the, for us in those days. How to, how to, how to experience, how to experience Buddhism all over the world, wherever you may go, whoever you are. Then, at that time, they thought of, this is Bodhisattva's practice, so-called Bodhisattva's practice, you know, they based on, based on the 6th parameter, 6th parameter. In Japanese, Roku Paramitsu, Roku means 6th, Paramitsu, Paramitsu means wisdom, the 6th parameter is, one is the practice of almsgiving, almsgiving.

[12:52]

You should give, you should give the materials, even the mind, in the domain of the self, in our daily life, how to practice the almsgiving. When you practice Zazen, you should give yourself, your mind, your body, without any attachment, without expectation, any expectation of rewards. You should give your mind and body to practice of Zazen wholeheartedly. This is the practice of almsgiving. The second is the practice of the precepts, precepts.

[13:56]

The third is the patience, the practice of patience. Whatever kind of humiliation, insult, humiliation, whatever kind of humiliation you experience, you should never forget there is the practice of patience, patience. This is third. Fourth is Shojin, this is effort. This effort is not a temporary effort, not temporary effort. The effort, this effort is the human deeds, with a constant effort, with constant effort, over and over again.

[15:16]

Not only the limitation of this world, but also till life after life. This is the Buddhist effort, constant effort, constant effort. Fifth is Jo, this is Zazen, the practice of Zazen. Sixth is wisdom, the practice of wisdom. These six parameters must be done by the people who are seeking for the stage of Bodhisattva. Who are seeking for the goal, the goal of Bodhisattva.

[16:29]

This is the sixth parameter. The parameter means, sometimes, some Buddhist scholars translate it into English, perfection, perfection. Wisdom is perfection anyway. Perfection is, what is perfection? It's very difficult to say. The perfection is the present existence of human being. Which is connecting, which is connecting with all sentient beings, in terms of the, how would you say, in terms of the viewpoint of space.

[17:51]

Did you understand? You know, in other words, I sit here now and talk something, speak something. Even though I speak of something, speak something to you, in front of you, no. Even though I alone, I alone talk something and there is nobody to listen to my lectures. I think I am discouraged. So I am delighted, what I am delighted into, in talking something, giving lectures, is what there is some person who are interested in some Buddhist subject, delivered by me.

[19:07]

Whatever kind of content it is, it has, you know. So you are interested in listening to the lectures, and I am delighted in giving the lectures. So the present existence of myself here now, doesn't exist apart from you, who are listening to my lectures. In space, in space, my life is, my life is strolling, anyway. By speaking, talking something, your life is also strolling, by listening to the lectures.

[20:11]

Your life doesn't exist apart from my, in front of my life, in this case, you know. Then also, I don't know how many people there are, maybe a hundred people here, who are concentrated, concentrated on listening to my lectures. But each people, individuals, understand different, and each individual has very different understanding, you know, my lectures. Partly because, it depends on the capability of Buddhist practice, what you, what has, what you have experienced so far.

[21:34]

And partly because, my English was very poor, anyway. So, there are very different understanding of Buddhism. It means, it means, you have to ask yourself, why? Why? In other words, you ask, it means, why that individual have different understanding of Buddhism. In other words, you have to ask, you have to dig up yourself, who you are.

[22:38]

So, from this point, you will find the very core elements of the truth, if you dig it up, if you dig up yourself, the self. So, Dogen Zen says, to run the Buddhism is to run the self. The completeness, wisdom is, wisdom is, the, wisdom is perfection, perfection. Which is, perfection that the human being have a close relationship with all sentient beings, in terms of the space, in terms of the system of space.

[23:51]

And that, you have to, you have to dig up yourself, you have to study the self, study the self. You have to research, who you are, what the self is. In terms of the system of time, day in and day out, who you are, you ask yourself, who you are. The completeness, wisdom is, wisdom always leads you to realize that you have close relationship with all sentient beings in terms of the system of space.

[25:00]

And also, leads you to research yourself constantly, day in and day out, who you are. This is perfection, this is perfection. So, in Sutrani Pada, there is a very interesting pause. The water of which, a water of which flows, runs, no, excuse me. The water of ripples, ripple, did you understand ripple? Ripple. Not ripple, ripple. In other words, the water which, which runs in the bottom, bottom of a shallow river.

[26:13]

R-I-F-F-L-E. Ripples. Anyway. Now rifle. Ripple. The water of ripple runs noisily. But, water of, a water of big river runs noselessly. Noselessly. Those who don't satisfy themselves, make too much noise in their daily life.

[27:26]

But, those who are completely satisfied themselves, live their life with stillness, stillness. This is very interesting. For instance, if you put water in a bottle, you know. Not full of water, not be filled with water. Just a little bit. Try to put water a little bit into that bottle. And try to shake it. Chakpon, chakpon, chakpon, chakpon. If you, when I was, when I was a college student, I studied Buddhist psychology.

[28:30]

That time I took it into my head that I completely understood. All Buddhism, all principle of Buddhism, I got it. Wherever I went, I always described what Buddhist psychology is. You know. With being proud of myself. It looks like I'm making, I'm making too much noise. You know. I have lots of knowledge. According to Buddhist psychology. You don't know that, huh? Something like that. But in a few years, completely I discovered. Because I realized, I didn't know. I didn't know the principle of Buddhism. So, at that time,

[29:34]

I have, I couldn't help, I couldn't help keeping silence. Keep silence. If you put some water, if you try to be filled with the water, if the bottle is filled with the water, even though you shake it, no sound, no noise. So, when you practice of six paramitas, even practice of almsgiving, almsgiving itself must be stillness. Patience is stillness. In the domain of your own practice. That's it, you know.

[30:36]

But mostly, if you give something to others, you know, you always emphasize yourself. I give it to him, I give it to him, you know. I told others, I give it to him. I give some candy to him. But he didn't, but he doesn't, he doesn't give it, give it, he doesn't give, give a candy, a candy to me. It's not stillness, it's not stillness. It looks like the bottle not to be filled with water. So, if you practice the almsgivings, almsgivings must be

[31:41]

stillness. The precept is stillness. Even though you obey, you are very serious a spirit of Zen Buddhism who obey the Buddhist practice. Which maybe you are a serious spirit of a vegetarian. But it's not, not the practice of vegetarian, not the practice of precepts. Strict spirit of the precepts must be stillness. The practice, practice of precepts is must be stillness. It's not necessary to

[32:45]

tell them how strict I was, I observe, I observe vegetarian, the principle of vegetarian, the principle of Buddhist precepts, the principle of Christian precepts. This is the wisdom, this is wisdom. So, the stillness is the Zen. Stillness is the Zen. Zenjo in Japanese. So the other day I described what is the thought of Zen Buddhism.

[33:46]

I described just the two points. One is the principle of transcendence. The other one is interdependence, the principle of interdependence. In terms of the principle of transcendence, it leads you to research the self, asking who you are constantly. You have to constantly dig up yourself. In terms of the principle of interdependence, it leads the big self,

[34:48]

it leads the big self who has close relationship with all sentient beings. This is the principle of transcendence. So wisdom is, wisdom has these two points. One is the principle of transcendence. The other one is the principle of interdependence. Plainly speaking, briefly speaking, what is perfection? Perfection is Zenjo, the tranquility, the practice of the Zen. As the meaning of parameter manifests itself, so your presence, your present existence of life

[35:49]

must be, must be in the experience of assurance and realization of your existence. This is stillness. Through the Zen, through the Zen, through the Zen, you can get this. Then from this point, in Mahayana Buddhism, the wisdom is perfection. Perfection is, perfection contains the practice

[36:52]

of precept and Zen meditation. Wisdom. In Hinayana Buddhism, the precept, the practice of precept and the practice of Zen meditation include, include the practice of wisdom. But in Mahayana Buddhism, it was completely opposite. Wisdom is not something which wisdom is not the contents of the precept and Zen meditation. The wisdom

[37:57]

includes, embraces the whole practice of precept and Zen meditation. This is wisdom. Then this wisdom is not limited to the practice of the Zen. The wisdom is open to the every deeds which you manifest yourself in daily life. Such as the deed that you try to give, you try to practice almsgiving. The practice of precept, practice of patience, practice of effort. In Buddhism,

[39:00]

effort is always stillness. Effort is not the attitude, basic attitude of human being that you are trying to stir up. Stir up something and to get something. The effort in Buddhism according to six parameters is stillness at the stage of present the present existence of your life. But even though we say like this you don't understand you don't understand what you don't understand is a kind of delusion. Even though you don't understand

[40:08]

you try to make effort with stillness because effort is must be stillness. Effort is stillness. Effort is made stillness. Tranquilly, intranquilly, in stillness. This is the practice of effort which Buddhists experience. So effort is not to stir up something and get something and seek for something. So then master in Japan famous master Sawaki Roshi says, human being don't understand themselves exactly. They are always

[41:12]

seeking for something. They are always chasing after something. Their own tail anyway. Nevertheless they don't understand who they are. And then more they try to chase after their own tail constantly. That's the problem. That's the problem for us. Then he said I hope I would like human being to settle themselves on the self with tranquilly. If they don't understand themselves who they are. This is very important. This is effort. This is basic attitude human being. Who you try to make every possible effort.

[42:13]

This is Zen. This is Mahayana. Then the Buddhists come to come to Buddhism transmit from China to Japan. In China already the Zen Buddhists emphasized the principle of no mind. I think no mind is very interesting subject. No mind is not something you can reach yet. No mind is doesn't exist around your navel around your head. No mind is something

[43:23]

that you can experience when you practice one of the six parameters almsgiving with stillness. This is no mind. No mind is not particular principle which you can you can get you can get hold it in your hand. It is not no mind. No mind is something which exists completely in the domain of stillness. Whatever you do whatever you do practice of almsgiving practice of patience practice of effort practice of Zazen practice of

[44:25]

manifestation of your whole life. The function of your whole life life itself this is no mind. This Zen center this building is named Bodhisattva Maha Bodhisattva Zen Dojo. Each of us must practice Maha Bodhisattva practice anyway according to six parameters. Try to ask yourself when you practice one of the six parameters such as almsgiving when you practice Zazen you should ask yourself

[45:26]

whether you can give your whole mind and body to your Zazen. When you practice Zazen you should throw away you should eliminate your body and mind into Zazen. Students who live in Maha Bodhisattva Zen Dojo I think this is very important. If you read Prajna Paramita Mito Petisha in Sanskrit it is

[46:28]

commentary to Prajna Paramita attributed to Nagyarjuna. In this it is it is it is consists of 100 phasco 100 phasco commentary on the Prajna Paramita This in this book it says that why Bodhisattva why is it that Bodhisattva practices

[47:28]

Zazen alone Zazen only because Bodhisattva must be, must save all sentient beings living living in the world in this world Is it good enough to concentrate on just practice of Zazen It took some parables to describe this If you get sick and must take up medicine

[48:28]

when you need when you need medical treatment first of all it is important important point that you eliminate you work your job and concentrate on taking care of yourself the man of medical treatment Bodhisattva practices Zazen means the Bodhisattva try to take up medicine when he when they are aware of themselves to be sick may it continue to explain the human

[49:34]

the human being possess the wisdom tranquilly in underlying essence, in other words Buddha nature in other words Buddha's light even though you have the Buddha's light called Buddha nature the true self based on emptiness you have to put it in the calm room tranquil that time you will find the Buddha's light

[50:34]

which is continuing to light constantly contrary you don't have calm room where you can keep it forever unfortunately you cannot find you cannot keep the burning light this is Bodhisattva's practice so wherever you are the Bodhisattva's practice is that

[51:35]

you must realize yourself settle yourself on self with calmness in the calm room this is Bodhisattva's practice think this is small mind this is enlightenment you can describe using various words, technical words emptiness whatever you say it's alright Buddha nature true self, truth but actually it's not so easy it's not so easy to keep yourself in calmness stillness

[52:37]

that's why we need practice at the end even though you find yourself in calmness stillness don't discourage don't discourage the Buddhist effort is in which you must keep it constant life after life is this Buddhist effort do you have any question? when you say dig into yourself do you mean what you are going to experience when you come out try to center yourself or do you mean

[53:38]

psychoanalysis any questions here when you say dig into yourself what do you see ah I mean you look at yourself you look at yourself constantly in the domain of calmness stillness whatever happens when anger when anger comes you should look at your look at the anger and you cannot

[54:40]

you cannot be patient in front of anger and you start to do something just hitting others you should look at yourself in calmness in in calmness the domain of calmness stillness this is digging up ok I think you will find no conclusion but this is conclusion this is end this is beginning beginning then

[55:45]

after you look at yourself how awful you are maybe you perhaps you may discard it but don't discard it you know last Monday morning in Berkeley I told about summer summer leaves ocean leaves ocean for finding the place where you were born in order to spawn ah the day comes when

[56:47]

the adult salmon ah seek for the fresh water upstream they said the salmon ah traveled more than 10 or 20 miles a day then they returned to the same river not only the same river but also to same part of the river they know so well where there is proper place suitable suited

[57:47]

to them of course the small proportion of salmon you know returned to the same part of the river anyway they have to do it and they are they know so well the same part of the river where they were born where their lives began when when when their return whatever happens they must sometimes fight face danger of fisherman danger of rabbits danger of

[58:48]

flashing fork waterfall ah they try to overcome leaping over 10 or 20 feet sometimes many enemies they have to face many enemies which lie in wait in the air in the water in the river bank sometimes such as hungry bear hungry human being but they have to they have to return to their

[59:50]

proper place where they were born whatever happens as long as we are human being the important point we have to proper place where you were born means your life itself which is going on in the domain of stillness of course as long as life endures you will find many kind of troubles we shouldn't forget that we have to return to world come this is our proper place that's why Dogen Zen says

[60:53]

kike onza zazen is called kike onza in Japanese kike means return to home onza means on means to settle to repose to repose that means settling zazen to settle to repose yourself on zazen you realize proper place of calmness ok this is digging up this is to dig up the self you are

[62:07]

you do the info time

[62:08]

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