I had a couple hearings. Come on closer. I know you wanted to go to the kitchen at some point, right? Yeah? You want to walk through everybody? If anybody wants dinner. Huh? You needed time to think dinner? Well, you could sit over here. Go around that way. Yeah. That's actually why I was sitting closer to the door. I think we'll be okay. I can't unmute. Okay. I tried to speak louder, but then I get into forgetting about that. It just sucks. Well, it's not raining now. Okay. Hong Zhe used certain images to convey his feeling of zazen, or silent illumination.

[01:30]

And one of the images that he used in different ways was the image of a boat. So, you know, the person is this vessel. And this vessel, when sitting in Zazen, is like a vehicle, actually. A vehicle or a vessel of light. So, here's one from one of his poems. He says, When by the side of the ancient fairy, the breeze and moonlight are cool and pure, the dark vessel turns into a glowing world. Nice image. The ancient fairy and the breeze and the moonlight are cool. The dark vessel turns into a glowing world.

[02:36]

So the dark gets the light also. He was very much influenced by Sekito Kisen, and by the Sando Kai, and the Hokyo Zamae, and by Tozan's Five Ranks, and various other things. But throughout his practice instructions, you see references to the Sando Kai. And here is, you know, the dark vessel, which is the absolute, you know, it's like the primal state, and the glowing world is like its manifestation. Excuse me, do you all want to move forward? Like Tom, can you move forward and other people can?

[03:37]

So, this one I'm going to comment on. It's called The Bright Boundless Field. He says, the field of boundless emptiness is what exists from the very beginning. You must purify, cure, grind down or brush away all the tendencies you have fabricated into apparent habits, then you can reside in the clear circle of brightness. Utter emptiness has no image. Upright independence does not rely on anything. Just expand and illuminate the original truth, unconcerned with external conditions. Accordingly, we are told to realize that not a single thing exists. In this field, birth and death do not appear.

[04:53]

The deep source, transparent down to the bottom, can radiantly shine and can respond, unencumbered, to each speck of dust without becoming its partner. The subtlety of seeing and hearing transcends mere colors and sounds. The whole affair functions without leaving traces and mirrors without obscurations. Very naturally, mind and dharmas emerge and harmonize. An ancient said that non-mind embodies and fulfills the way of non-mind. Embodying and fulfilling the way of non-mind, finally you can rest. Proceeding, you are able to guide the assembly with thoughts clear, sitting silently wander into the center of the circle of wonder. This is how you must penetrate and study." So he starts out by saying, the field of boundless emptiness is what exists from the very beginning.

[05:57]

So the field of boundlessness, boundless emptiness, exists from the very beginning. And then you and I appear. disappear, and the field of knowledge continues. You know, we tend to identify with this body and mind and self. Well, I'll get on to that as we go along. He keeps bringing that up. You must purify, cure, grind down, or brush away all the tendencies you have fabricated into apparent habits. So he seems to be saying, get rid of your habits. Purify is an interesting word, because we tend to think of pure as being the opposite of impure.

[07:08]

And in a worldly sense, pure is the opposite of impure. But in a dharmic sense, purity exists within the impure, and impurity exists within the pure. So, real purity, actual purity in a dharmic sense, means non-duality. Suzuki Roshi, when he was talking about zazen, or about non-duality, he said, and we're talking about buildings, practice is not so difficult because your legs hurt. That's not what makes practice difficult. What makes practice difficult is the hardest thing to do is to keep our practice pure. That's the most difficult thing. then he said that what purity means is non-duality, to keep our practice from falling into duality.

[08:16]

So to purify, or cure, or grind down, or brush away all the tendencies you have fabricated into apparent habits, this may be a little different, this may be but to purify our mind, actually. To really examine the tendencies that we have, to examine the habits that we've built up, to examine our assumptions, actually. This is what our practice does. And it's one thing that gives us a problem. And when we confront the Zen koans, the koans are always challenging our assumptions.

[09:22]

And then we get confused. The first time we read the koans, we go, what's this about? It's so illogical. But our assumptions seem so logical. The koan is a different logic. It's the logic of non-duality rather than the logic of falling into one side or another. The logic of duality is fairly simple, seems simple. But the logic of non-duality is the haplograph because our mind It goes beyond the logic of thinking, although thinking can grasp it. So, he's asking to look at and challenge and face our assumptions. He says, so you must purify, cure, grind down and brush away

[10:32]

all the tendencies you have fabricated into apparent habits. Then you can reside in a clear circle of brightness. Utter emptiness has no image. Upright independence does not rely on anything. Dharmakaya has no special shape or form, but all things are the shapes and forms of the Dharmakaya. So, anything you point to, you can say, this is it. It's interesting, this term, it. It doesn't apply to anything in particular, but it applies to anything you want it to apply to. So, emptiness is it. You can say emptiness is it, because it has no special shape or form.

[11:37]

But we take it and shape it into various shapes and forms. And then we call these shapes and forms by various names. So it's kind of like gold. Gold can be melted and then poured into various, and poured and pounded and worked into various shapes and forms. And then you melt it all down again and it's just kind of amorphous. So, this is kind of the way the world works, the universe works. Nothing is lost or gained in the world. Like water, you know, there's just so much water in the world and it doesn't get lost or gained except in various hidden ways. This is called the realm of transformation.

[12:45]

Everything is continuously being transformed and taking various shapes. And the great mystery is how it all works. So utter emptiness has no image, and upright independence does not rely on anything. So we say dependent, independent. Suzuki Roshi coined the term, independency, when he gave his Sambhogakaya lectures. He used the term, independency, which It was a word that he coined, which is like, sort of in between dependence and independence. Things are independent, but at the same time, everything is interdependent.

[13:50]

And nothing really exists by itself, but there's a feeling of independence. I feel independent from you. Or I feel independent from everything. But actually that's not so, because I'm totally dependent on everything. Nothing exists that's not totally dependent on everything. But in this sense, he's talking about independence. When you sit up straight, you're not really relying on anything outside. When we sit in Zazen, sit up straight, and The body just depends on it, on what Homer Scherer calls this brilliant light. So that's what he means by independent.

[14:53]

Not depending on anything from the outside. That's what struck me when I first sat down there, was I could sit in this place on this seat and what was sustaining me was something bigger than myself, something bigger than what I considered myself. Just reading and allowing that to express in itself. So this is upright independence. So upright independence, does not rely on anything.

[15:58]

Just expand and illuminate the original truth, unconcerned with external conditions. Accordingly, we are told to realize that not a single thing exists. Before I read that, I just want to talk about this a little bit. Unconcerned by external conditions. Just expand and illuminate the original truth. Unconcerned by external conditions. One time, some student asked Vicky Roshi about his robes, you know. He said, well, how come you wear those troublesome robes? You know, he didn't say troublesome. He said, how come you wear those? those robes all around it.

[17:00]

And Suzuki said, well, these robes are troublesome. When I was getting down and adjusting myself, I was thinking, these robes are really troublesome. He's gliding around. He said, but this is what I do. This is the role I have. And these robes are troublesome. And so But I still wear them. But I wear them, you know, I wear the troublesomeness lightly. And I don't let it bother me. And it's okay. And this is the way, he said, we should wear the world. We should wear the world like this troublesome robe without getting caught by it. without being troubled by it too much, and realizing that it's always going to be troublesome, it's always going to be something to take care of, and yet not to be caught by that.

[18:20]

So, accordingly, we are told to realize that not a single thing exists. Well, fundamentally, not a single thing exists. Everything exists in its shape and form, form and color, the technical term called form and color, which means existence momentarily. But that's it. Even as we sit here, everything is transforming and changing. And we go away from each other, and come back a year later, and we look the same, but something's changed. We're different. We're a different person, and yet we're the same person, you know. The child, is the parent of the old man. But nothing really exists, fundamentally.

[19:51]

And since, not only that, but since everything is totally interdependent with everything else, Nothing can exist, really. But everything exists as everything else. That's wonderful, isn't it? Everything exists as everything. It all exists as everything. So, no need to worry. Because it won't help you. And then he says, in this field, birth and death do not appear. So this is the fundamental doctrine of Buddhism, that there is no such thing as birth and death.

[20:55]

But, this is a long story, but birth and death exist on various levels. There's the birth and death of the appearance and disappearance of this body and mind. But we don't call that birth and death. In a dharmic sense, birth and death are the birth and death of the self. Birth and death is the birth and death of what we call the ego. What is it that experiences birth and death, it's a self. When there's no self, it's not so troublesome, because we just see it. Because when there's no ego and no self, then instead of identifying with the self, we identify with the universe.

[22:02]

In other words, we identify with the life of the universe. And what we call myself is just one aspect or one manifestation of the universe or what he calls the circle of brightness. And wanting to preserve ourselves When we do that, that's idealizing the self, because we're clinging to something. Clinging, grasping, and attachment create the self. When there's no clinging, grasping, and attachment, there's no self that is born and dies. Because what is born and dies is the self, due to clinging, grasping, and attachment. You know, sometimes when people get older, or they get better, they just let go.

[23:08]

What is it that they let go of? Just letting go of the self. And then they can die easily. Because there's nothing to grasp. But, you know, we grasp on to life. With dear life. Which, you know, normal, natural, but it's illusory. But at the same time, here we are, right? So we have to take care of where we are, and take care of our life, and take care of each other, you know? Because this is, you know, there are two aspects. One is the absolute aspect, which is, nothing really exists. But on the human level, you and I and everything else exists. But that's from the human standpoint. It's not from the absolute standpoint.

[24:10]

It's simply from the human standpoint. All ethics, good and bad, and right and wrong, are simply from the human standpoint. But since we're human, and we want to be happy, and we want to take care of each other, and of course not all of us want to take care of each other, some of us want to kill each other, That's part of human nature. And that makes those people happy for some reason. But it's all human. Human world. But the universe, I don't know if the universe cares that much. So, I asked Huipsu one time, last time I saw him, I said, Woody, how do you take care of people that are dying?

[25:11]

You know? I said, is there anything at Soto's Inn, you know, that is a kind of way of taking care of people that are dying? He said, hold their hand. Then he said, Just tell them, everything is dying alongside of you. You know, everything is going together with you, so don't worry about it, you know. There's nothing here that will not go with you, wherever it is that you're going. So, birth and death. In this field, birth and death do not appear. The deep source, transparent down to the bottom, can radiantly shine and can respond, unencumbered, to each speck of dust without becoming its partner.

[26:16]

You respond to everything, but you don't become its partner. You don't... it's like... How do you do? And I can help you as much as I can, and we can be good friends. But do we live together or do we die together? That's an interesting Zen koan. That's Seppo and Ganto. We lived together, but we didn't die together. That was an interesting statement by Kanto. So the deep source, transparent down to the bottom, can radiantly shine and can respond unencumbered.

[27:22]

So it's not so much that I am doing something, but that the source itself is acting through me. That can be dangerous. You know, when I think about that, people say, well, God told me to do it, you know. Jesus told me. Jesus told me. When I, something's speaking through me. So that can be a kind of dangerous thing. But that's not what he's talking about. What he's really talking about is because There is right understanding. There's no obstruction. And the response is from that deep place.

[28:27]

It's not like, I am, but we do say, I am Buddha. But we also say, you are Buddha too. It's not like putting yourself in somebody else's place of authority. I've got a question about this phrase. A speck of dust without becoming its partner, would be becoming its partner mean like clinging to it? Yeah, without clinging, without attachment. So whatever arises, actually, is a speck of dust. I'm a speck of dust, and you're a speck of dust, and our activities are specks of dust. So the subtlety of seeing and hearing transcends mere colors and sounds. In other words, what we see and what we hear

[29:30]

that the subtle seeing is to see beneath the surface of sound, beneath the surface of color. In other words, to see things as they really are, rather than just the superficial covering. And then he says, the whole affair functions without leaving traces, and mirrors without obscuration. Leaving traces, you know, we say that the accomplished person doesn't leave traces. It's like the bird's path. Tozan called it the bird's path. The bird's path is like the bird flies through the air, but you can't really trace its path. It doesn't leave anything, any tracks behind it. And the fish swims through the water, but you can't trace its path. doesn't leave an apparent trail behind it.

[30:35]

So, it means, like, not creating karma, basically. Not creating bad karma. It means that the mirror of mind sees things as they really are. the mind which is free from assumptions and simply is open to mirroring whatever comes in front of the mirror is reflected exactly as it is without distortion. You know, we create the world, we make up the world from our opinions and ideas And whatever information comes in, we put into our opinionated opinion machine.

[31:38]

And then equate it with our experience, and then with our usual way of evaluating things. And then we created a whole opinionated view of what things are, instead of just allowing something to come in and seeing what it is, allowing the information to come in and actually seeing what it is without making a comment. Suzuki Roshi and other Zen teachers used to say, when you listen to a Zen lecture, just keep your mind open and not have any opinion. Not, you know, not always thinking about... Just be open and listen. Otherwise, you can't really take it in.

[32:45]

So, I repeat, you don't have to do that. You can have all you want. I'm not talking about you. But... To just be able to see something clearly as it is, we should all think about that. Am I doing that? When we see something or hear something or observe, am I just completely mirroring that thing as it is? Can I see those colors as they are? When I look in the mirror and I first see myself, It's a little surprising. But the next time I look, I've already made a conception. And then I look different. And then I kind of posture a little bit. But it's really hard, you know, to just be convinced of that, especially with things that we're close to and familiar with.

[33:54]

So, very naturally, mind and dharmas emerge and harmonize. Dharmas are things, in a sense. Dharmas have two... well, there are a lot of meanings of dharmas, but there are two for us. Dharma, which is the Buddhist teaching, or the law, or the truth. And then dharmas are things. All of our feelings are dharmas. All of our emotions are dharmas. Good dharmas and bad dharmas. The whole category of dharmas. The mind and dharmas emerge and harmonize. In other words, our feelings and thoughts and emotions harmonize with our mind. An ancient said that non-mind embodies and fulfills the way of non-mind.

[35:04]

Non-mind, you could say no-mind, or you could say non-dual-mind. But I think no-mind is a kind of Zen dharmic expression But it really refers to non-dual mind, not dualistic mind. So I kind of like it that way, that embodying and fulfilling the way of non-dual mind, finally you can rest. Proceeding, you are able to guide the assembly with thoughts clear, sitting silently, Wander into the center of the circle of wonder. That's a wonderful expression. Just wander into the center. Oh, here I am.

[36:07]

How did I get here? Wander into the center of the circle of wonder. This is how you must penetrate and study. So here again, he uses that same term, but a little bit differently. And then in the other passage he said, the center of the circle where light issues forth, and here he says, the center of the circle of wonders. And then up above he calls it the circle of clear brightness. So he has various ways of expressing this, which are variations on the same thing. What time is it? It's 336. How many minutes do we have before the break? It would be about 40 minutes now. It would be about 40 minutes now. Well, let's take a little break.

[37:16]

Oh, interesting practice and section. Look. Section. This particular section is entitled Stepping from the Cliff's Edge. And I kind of think of this as his attitude toward dying or toward death. He says, practice in emptiness and forget conditioning as dazzling light gleams from those shadows. When each portion of spirit is luminous and unhindered, the mind of the three times is interrupted and the four material elements are in balance. Transparent and marvelously bright in solitary glory,

[38:24]

For multitudinous kelpas, a patch-robed practitioner of the way can practice like this and not be bound by life and by birth and death. In upright practice, let go from the edge of the high cliff, not grabbing or grasping for anything. The ties around your feet are severed. In wholeness, take one step. The Buddhism ancestors all do not reach one's own genuine, wondrously illuminating field, which is called oneself. At this juncture, sustain the family business. Just when involved in deliberation, turn around from the stream of thought. Empty with enduring spirit, pure with enduring illumination, clear and white, reed flowers and bright moonlight are mixed together. Oars pulled in, the solitary boat drifts past without difficulty.

[39:30]

At this time, please tell me, who would be anxious to display the eye of discrimination?" So he says, practice an emptiness and forget conditioning as dazzling light gleams from the shadows. Dazzling light means like there's something Practicing in emptiness is like Zazen, either sitting or in your daily life. And forget conditioning, as dazzling light gleams from the shadows. So he's saying that return to your original nature, you know, without Let go of conditioning. Let go of your preconditions.

[40:37]

The essential element of practicing Zen is to let go of your conditioning and your preconceptions and your opinions. When the new students, the young boys mostly, in Japan, go into Eheji, the training monastery, everything is taken away. All their conditioning is totally taken away. And they have their brainwashed, which means cleaning out the mind, you know, of conditioning. And then when they emerge, hopefully, you know, if they actually do this thoroughly, then they're a new person. And they can see clearly, and they can hear clearly, and they can feel clearly.

[41:42]

And it's like when you've been in bed for a long time, you know, and you had a cold or something, and then you get up after four or five days, and you go out into the sunshine, and everything is all clear and beautiful and sparkling and, you know, or in Sachine actually. That's five years or so. So when each portion of spirit is luminous and unhindered, the mind of the three times is interrupted. Three times means past, present and future. And the four material elements are in balance. fire, water, earth and air or ether. Those are the four elements. They're all in balance. Transparent and marvelously bright, in solitary glory for a multitudinous Kalpa means a long time.

[42:46]

Students of the way, can practice like this and not be bound by birth and death. They go easily from one moment to the next. You know, the way we live our life is the way that we let go of it, actually. So if we can learn to live our life easily, going with things and not being bound by things, then it's much easier for us to lead and actually enter into a meeting with a kind of clear mind.

[43:51]

as just the next step. In upright practice, let go from the edge of the high cliff, also like stepping off the 100 foot pole, not grasping anything. The ties around your feet are severed. And in wholeness, you just take one step. The buddhas and ancestors all do not reach one's own genuine, wondrously illuminating field, which is called oneself. In other words, the buddhas and ancestors at this point can't even come up to you, because you're so independent and boundless. That's just the kind of way of saying something. At this juncture, Sustain the family business. The family business is like, for a Zen student, that's the family business.

[44:57]

Your practice is the family business. The Sangha is your family business. And for a monk, he's talking to monks mostly, but this is, you know, the family business is how you do this. That's the family business. How you get free. How you get free on self. Just when involved in deliberation, turn around from the stream of thoughts. In other words, you catch yourself getting entangled in deliberation and doubts and entanglements. Remember to let go. Empty with enduring spirit. Pure with enduring illumination. clear and white. Reed flowers and bright moonlight are mixed together.

[45:59]

But the reed flowers is like, you know, we say, diving into the weeds, or falling into the weeds, or the reed means entanglement, or any, you know, involvement with things. And bright moonlight is enlightenment. So with reed flowers and bright moonlight, the reed flowers and bright moonlight are mixed together. So within the moonlight, and within the involvement, there's enlightened activity. There's an interesting poem I'll read you. And then he says, oars pulled in, the solitary boat criss-crossed without difficulty. This is another boat image, another vehicle image. The other one is by the side of the ancient ferry.

[47:05]

And this one, he says, the oars pulled in the solitary boat just passed without difficulty. At this time, please tell me, who would be anxious to display the iron discrimination? Daegen uses this image, too. in one of his poems, a solitary boat at midnight, bobbing up and down on a tide. It's like a good picture of John Lewis. Does anybody have any questions or anything to say? Well, you don't have to, but I don't want to. I've got a couple of questions. Going back to the bright boundless field, you had talked about seeing things as a as they are, is seeing things as they are something one is aware of, or like, how do you verify you're not like BSing yourself?

[48:34]

Well, seeing things as they are, there are levels of perception. One level of perception is that without thinking, without discriminating, just eyes are open and see. And so in that level of discrimination, there's no naming. It's not like this is a lectern and that's a book, simply seeing itself. When the airplane goes over, you don't say, that's an airplane, it's just this sound. So the ears hear, the eyes see, the nose knows, tongue tastes, feeling, and there's registering in consciousness.

[49:44]

The consciousness is not deliberating it, or making a story out of it, or naming it. And that's pure seeing, that's pure cognition. And then the other level of cognition is, oh, that's the airplane, that's an airplane, or this is a lecture, and that's a book, and you name it, this is it. So, but it's simply making order, a certain mental order. And then there's, but there's also thinking involved. That is, the next level, which discriminates what's being thought, and that's getting further and further away to making a story out of what has been perceived. So that third level is pretty much storytelling. And a lot of our memory, you know, is storytelling. And a lot of, when we relay what happened to us, you know, we create stories.

[50:51]

So, a lot of us live just in the story. The story is good, it's okay. And all three levels have validity. But without the first level, the second two levels are less valid as reality. Because they don't perceive without discrimination. So, you know, if you're sitting in Zazen, and you have a sensation, a pain, a sensation arises in your legs, for instance, and you say, oh that's a painful, my legs are painful, That's the second level of discrimination. The first level would be, there is a sensation. There is this sensation.

[51:53]

The second level is, oh that's a painful sensation. The third level is, I don't like that. So, if you can stay within a bare perception, then you won't have so much trouble. Because things are not... Our mind creates our condition, as well as our condition influencing our mind. Maybe this question connects with that. Early on you talked about examining assumptions and grinding down habits. And there's sort of like, that seems like a little different spirit than letting go. Yes, it does seem like that, it's true. And so, in Zazen, how does that relate to examining the assumption? Yeah, I would say, I would say, I wouldn't think about that in Zazen.

[52:58]

The pure one, I would. Because the pure, you use the word purity, and that means non-discrimination, non-duality. And so, I agree with you. The others seem more like work. Usually he just talks about letting go of things. He doesn't talk about it. But sometimes he does. Sometimes you have to work at this. As you let go of things, I'm not sure what I mean by examine, but there does seem like there's some awareness of the patterns of what's coming up Yes. Maybe. I guess that kind of examining. Well, examination. That's right. Examination. Or noticing, maybe. Yes. That's right. When something does come up, you don't... things are always coming up. Anger comes up, you know.

[53:58]

Lust comes up. Jealousy comes up. You know, all kinds of feelings. Both good and bad dharmas, these are all dharmas, appear. And you let them appear. But then you don't take them up. You have a choice. So I go this way or not. And so then they just... The impulse comes up. But you don't take it up and create either a fantasy or a... It's not something you do, but... Or a... Use it as a foundation for creating something. And we just let it go. So... Hopefully we can do that. So you can sit comfortably if you don't take up these things, you know, the anger about something arises, and you let it come up, and maybe it does, you do kind of take it up for a minute, but then, because this, what you're doing is loving, not anger, right?

[55:02]

So you let it go, you know? And in that sense, Some people label their thoughts, or label their feelings. I don't do that. I know what the feeling is. I don't have to label it. Even if I don't know what it is, it's just some idea I have. And then people say, well, over and over we bring back our attention, let go, arise and bring back our attention. But sometimes I'll typically go, well, you know, go ahead, go with your idea. That's the radical approach. Go with your... and let it play out a little bit, and then come back. You know? Because it's a little bit radical to always let go of everything. Sometimes you have to let it play out a little bit, but at the same time not get caught in it. I don't know if that completely addresses what you're saying.

[56:07]

Yeah. Dogen talks about crushing your bones. Crushing your bones. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, hard practice is crushing your bones, you know, the ancestors crushed their bones in order to make the, you know. So there are two sides. One is the active side of crushing your bones. The other is the passive side of letting go. I sort of think of it as breaking down boundaries. Yeah. Yeah, I remember Tatsugami Roshi talked about Zazen as the battleground of the mind and the heart. And I could see that. And someone else talked about it as the radiant light. So everything is true. So everything is correct.

[57:14]

Can I ask a question about, did Hongshu write this as, the one thing that's so interesting about this work to me, is that you have all these sections which were very much the same length. There's one after another, and they're very much alike. And I just wondered if he ... and yet, I don't know of anything else anywhere like this. No, I don't either. And I just wondered if he wrote this as a thing, or if he wrote these on different occasions for reasons ... was he writing them, do you think, for the monks he was teaching? I mean, they are inspirational, but it just ... It's just such an unusual... It's very unusual. When I first read this, I thought, I just connected with it. I thought, this is exactly what I, you know, the way I've always felt about it.

[58:22]

And so I just totally connected with it right away, more than anything else that I've studied or read about in Zen. But I don't know whether he wrote them... He's written, you know, he wrote a lot of stuff. And so this is just some of it. This is just, you know, one section of this particular type of writing. But he also wrote other things in different styles. Do you feel that there's a progression to it? No, I think each one expresses some aspect of this. It's like he's walking around this thing and he's expressing it from this point of view and this point of view and this point of view. So sometimes he talks about it from the point of view of birth and death, sometimes he talks about it from the point of view of Zazen, sometimes from the point of view of the family business, you know, and using various metaphors.

[59:32]

It's true, it's all about the same thing. They're all subjects about the same. And I also felt when I was reading it that it was just like, on a particular day, one was plenty. You don't want to sit down and read 30 pages. No, it's not like reading a newspaper. It's more like reading poetry. Because it is, it's a poetic statement. It's funny that he would write something else that he called poetry, because this is so poetic. Are these oral teachings? No, he wrote them down. I mean, he wrote them, but I'm pretty sure that he wrote them. So in this particular one, it's called The Family Business.

[61:06]

And he talks about, he uses images from the Sandokai, which you probably recognize, I'm sure. So he says, Patro, Zen students or monks, roamed the world constantly emptying and expanding their minds. roaming the world, this is like wandering, right? But constantly emptying and expanding their minds. Emptying is like renunciation. We use the word renunciation and it has several meanings.

[61:52]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ