One is the teaching of the people that are present and the teaching of the Founder, so they're both important. And the teaching of the people that are present has its variations, so it may not look like the teaching of the Founder, but basically it is. But I So that people don't go astray. And that the things that are most important should be preserved. Not preserved, but practiced. The basic things should be practiced. Yeah. What's your personal future? My personal teacher? Future. Future. Where are you going to be in 5 years, 10 years? Well, this is very interesting because I'm 75.

[01:02]

In July I'll be 76. That's only four years away from being 80. And I just thought about that. Four years away from being 80. But I'm not an old man, so it's very strange, I think. I had a similar question with a slightly different way of asking, which is, do you feel like you have some unfinished business, some projects, things like that that you'd really like to accomplish? Well, you know, Jack Shoemaker, who was, you know, he had the North Point Press, and he asked me a long time ago to write a book. So I've been getting around to writing a book, you know, but it's slow. People want to publish my talks on my talks. And so those are the things that are kind of going on, you know.

[02:08]

But it's really hard to get into it. I do, from time to time, get into it. And I always feel that I always have to edit my own things. Whenever I see some editing, mostly, that somebody else has done, it doesn't feel right to me. So, unfortunately, I have to edit. But it doesn't take me long to edit. I can edit pretty fast. You said you're interested in teachings on birth and death, and maybe you can teach on that? Oh yeah, that's right. I've been planning on doing that. And that's important. I think that that's not really brought out much in Zen Center. And Suzuki Roshi didn't talk much about it either, actually. The only thing I heard, well he talked about the waterfall, nirvana and the waterfall, and here and there talking about dying and what that means, so I can bring those things out.

[03:12]

ideas that are common to Mahayana and Mahayana Buddhism and it's good to bring those out. So I think it's good for everybody to think about this problem because it's the basic problem that we all have and we're all going in that direction. And I've dealt, you know, for a long time, very few people died at Zen Center, because the community is fairly young, and people are fairly healthy, doing Zazen and eating good food mostly, and taking care of themselves. We don't have the rate of dying off that most congregations have. But now people are dying more, they're getting older, and in the last couple of years, I've been tending to people that are dying a lot, and it's becoming more and more.

[04:27]

And the older you get, the more people start dying. And as Zen Center becomes older, Sometimes I'll see somebody that I hadn't seen for a long time, and I say, gee, who's that old lady? And it turns out to be somebody that I know very well that I hadn't seen for a while. It's kind of a shock. So we have to know how to take care of all this. And we have to have some good idea of what it means before we can take care of it. Like when you're doing a ceremony for somebody, what is the meaning of that? Do you believe in that? Do you believe in what, you know, what do we actually think about it? And how do we actually think about it?

[05:28]

Is there reincarnation? Is there rebirth? What is it, you know? So you hear about all these things, So I think this should be brought out and looked at. Okay. You said a few minutes ago that you're going to be 80 soon, and in the past you've said that one of your main concerns is giving this teaching to the next generation. Yeah, that's right. So what do you have to say to us kids? You can only do what you can do. You can only do what you can do. So you just keep going, and everything works out in the end. I've always believed that everything will work out in the end. And one thing that I'm so convinced of is that if you just do your practice without wanting, you know, you know that something will happen.

[06:42]

and you want something to happen, but all you have to do is do your practice and everything happens. Everything comes to you that's supposed to come to you. You don't have to go out trying to get it. If you just do daily practice sincerely without thinking about getting anything, everything that's supposed to come to you will arrive and you'll be very surprised. I think the first time we came in here and you talked, you mentioned that Suzuki Roshi, there are a few people that would have gotten transmission from him. And I think Bill Pong was his student for the longest time, and that was only like in eight or nine years, and then maybe it was six or seven years. And is that about? I think Bill was there for, Bill was there about 60 or 60, almost nine or ten years. Well now, A lot of people don't just say it, but pretty consistently, 15 to 20 years, people get it.

[07:48]

And with Sudhikar, it's just really good over you guys. Was he turbocharging it for you? You know, there's something about being with the founder that's different than being with other teachers. I don't know what it is, but it's like, um, um, And I had been with him only three years before I was in Berkeley opening up the Zendo, right? But I wasn't a teacher. I didn't consider myself a teacher. And so what I practiced with Suzuki Roshi was humility. That was my practice with him. And I would just love to see that practice, more people practice humility as their major practice.

[08:50]

Because I didn't let myself, although I wanted to do, you know, charge ahead, I restrained myself. Because I always felt that this was my, the practice was humility. And if I stayed on the bottom line, I could just see that everything works. You don't have to try to get something. And the fastest way to advance in Zen Center is to not try to advance. The fastest way to get anywhere is just do what you're asked to do, and do it thoroughly, and do it with humility, and do it with sincerity, and don't talk too much. And you will be at the top You know, so-and-so doesn't ask for anything, just does his work, just, you know, doesn't make big problems, is smart, is, you know, tries, let's put this person up here.

[09:57]

But if somebody says, I want this, I want this, you'll never get there. Stop bothering us. It's the way it works. Not always. But then it doesn't matter because you don't want anything. Did you give any misgivings to God? Of course. Why did you have to? He said to me, I'm going to go to Japan with Dick and give him Dharma transmission. What do you think of that? And I said, do you think he's ready? And he said, well, sometimes we give it when a person is ready, and sometimes we give it to a person and hope. And I knew exactly what he was talking about. And then I asked Kadagiri Roshi one time, I said, why did Suzuki Roshi give dharma transmission to Dick?

[11:06]

He said, Dick went in and stole his heart. And he did. Wow. So how? How? The way he stole everybody's heart. He didn't order Syndicate RNG to pick up his heart. No, but he was in there. He was, you know, he was, he just, somebody's right in front of your face and he's, you know, and you see that energy and that willingness and he came, he found Tussara. I mean, he was doing everything, you know, he was the, he was the key person doing everything. And you can't ignore that.

[12:08]

You can't say, you're the key person doing everything, stand aside while I give it to somebody else. That just can't work that way. It's not easy. Having disciples and putting them in place is not easy. It's excruciatingly difficult. So would you say something about your disciples? It's excruciatingly difficult. Most of the people that I've given dharma transmission to, which is a lot, 18 or something like that. 18, I think. I miscount. The old woman who lived in the shoe, But most of the people I've given dharma transmission to have their own places.

[13:16]

They have their own practices like Pat and you know. So I feel really good about that. They don't bother me. I'm not worried about it, you know. But I trust all of them, you know, and they're all working well. But what's difficult is when it's close, like in Berkeley. There are so many people who have been practicing for so long, a long time, years and years, and they're all kind of peers. And then they have stuff with each other and envies and jealousies and elbowing and they're all trying to be very good with each other, but it's really hard. And for me to say, well, this one, and then, well, maybe it's not easy dealing with all that.

[14:25]

Do you have a prescription for Zen center or I mean you're kind of saying that institutionally? I don't know. A prescription? What do you mean? I don't know I feel like you know it's gone from this kind of a hierarchy top down total authoritarian model to a kind of a radical, maybe not radical democracy, but a more democratic form? I mean, do you see a certain model that works? Well, I think Zen Center is a kind of a school in a way, but it's not an academic school. I hope Zen Center never turns into an academic school. That would be terrible. But it's where people, they pass through and hopefully we turn out teachers who would go away, go someplace.

[15:40]

The hard part about Zen Center is that there are people who are good teachers and they should go someplace. The problem is because of the many students you get more and more students you need more teachers and so the dilemma of should they stay here or should they go away I think they should go away because that gives the opportunity for other people who you don't think are teachers to come up and be teachers the problem is one problem is that you know The older you get, the longer you've been a Zen center, everyone else looks like a child. So people have been practicing for 10 years, and you still think of them as children. Just like you were saying, you know, it's true. Oh, they've only been practicing for 20 years.

[16:42]

So that's a problem. I think that way. I think see somebody who's been practicing for 10 years, and I think they've only been around for a little while. But we have to give people more responsibility. And actually, if you give people responsibility when they're young, that energizes them. It's good. I've always found that when you give, not everybody, but most people, responsibility Even though you have doubts, they almost always come up to the responsibility and it works. It's late? It's 5 o'clock. Okay. Do you have one more question? A wrap-up. How did you say you worked things through with Hoitsu?

[17:51]

Was there an interpreter or something? How did you do that? You know, on the surface, Hoitsu was very kind to us. I was there with Bill Kwong and Ekai, who was a Japanese priest, who actually started practicing with me. and ended up in Japan. So, you know, we'd have these conversations with Huizu, and all kinds of things, you know, we'd talk about. And then sometimes we'd come around to talking about his father. And then he would, you know, get kind of antsy. And of course, we were drinking. you know, sake and stuff, you know. So then he'd get listened up. Once he'd get listened up, then he would start talking about how his father kind of abandoned him in the temple and went off to America and Zen centers, just you know, blah blah blah.

[18:58]

And Richard Baker was blah, blah, blah. And what do you guys know anyway? So we just had to kind of work through. We had to be who we were, and he was who he was. And we just kind of were very open and honest with each other. And little by little, he came to see that we were, who we were, instead of his idea of who we were. He had to get over his idea of who I was and see who I was. And I had to get over my idea of who I thought he was and see who he was. And in that process, we really saw each other clearly. And we saw, he saw his aunts and uncle, he saw his father clearly, we saw each other clearly. And then when I wanted to do this thing, because it was... there were no doubts about it.

[20:04]

It wasn't really connected. So, there was a time during the transmission ceremony, which was all in Japanese, you know, and I could not understand a word of it, but he just kind of directed me. When I looked at him, and his face was Suzuki Yoshi's face, I was just totally startled. I just felt like he was channeling Suzuki Roshi. So, to me, that was the moment when I didn't have any doubt about this thing. You know, when Bill was getting Dama transmission in Japan, Narada Hiroshi, who lived close to Rinzai, and who was a friend of Suzuki Hiroshi's, he was like the expert in monastic training and in Dogon, present-day expert on Dogon.

[21:07]

And he had Narada Hiroshi come over and help him do the Dharma transmission with Bill. And Bell thought, this is Suzuki Roshi's transmission through a Huitsu. And Mori Roshi said, no. He said, it's a Huitsu's dharma transmission because you cannot get dharma transmission from a dead person. So technically that's so, but actually it's not. So it's a Huitsu. said this of course this is my father's transmission which i am doing for him right so uh and of course it is so but technically it's not because there was a time when people were doing stuff like that.

[22:10]

And Doggan talks about that. He says, and Aminju, he says, and he complains about this guy going and getting Oman's Dharma transmission, you know, 300 years later. He says, you can't do that. So, but this is different. This is our teacher. And the feeling is him being, Hoitsu being a conveyor of Suzuki Roshi's transmission to his disciples. But it's also Hoitsu's transmission. So I consider Hoitsu my honchi. And he has grown so much. in our relationship, you know. He has grown so much. His whole life has changed knowing us.

[23:12]

So the relationship has enhanced the practice of all of us. So it's been very good. And that's the end. One thing that Suzuki Roshi said to me once was, if my disciples quarrel with each other, I'll quit. He said, if my disciples quarrel with each other, I'll quit. And I understand completely what he said.

[23:56]

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