And this morning I continued the zazen instruction. And what's actually been unfolding is that I'm giving some very detailed zazen instruction, which may take the whole five days. And I haven't gotten to breathing yet. breathe, and so I feel pretty good about that. I don't know if you find it tedious or what, you know, but I kind of like doing it this way. I think in this kind of situation, to just have a cursory zazen instruction may not be so beneficial, and usually we give A person will take Zazen instruction for an hour, and then they go ahead and practice for a while, and they may or may not get any more instruction for a long time.

[01:14]

And I think in this particular situation, we have an opportunity within five days to really concentrate in a deep way magnifying all the aspects of the details of Zazen and concentrating on each aspect and giving it time to work for us and later having some review. that go into, that we can talk about, around meditation. But right now, since we've gone this far, this is the second day, originally the first day, starting yesterday, last night, I'd like to see if you have anything that you'd like to discuss around what we've been doing.

[02:32]

or any questions you have. I've been doing most of the talking and I'd like to hear something from you, some response. See what you have to, what you've been thinking about or what you might want to clarify. I think we've all been on the sleep cure. We've been all on the sleep cure. We meditate and then sleep and then meditate. You know, I found when you asked has to hold our eyes open, I couldn't. I couldn't do it. Oh, gosh. Pretty hard, huh? It was very hard. Harder than the posture for me. Yeah, it's hard. You realize how tired our bodies are sometimes. Well, keeping our eyes open, doing zazen, is probably one of the hardest things because For one thing, you're sitting still, and sleep starts to creep in.

[03:47]

So sleepiness is one of the difficulties that we're always dealing with in Zazen. and tiredness, confusion, lots of thoughts coming up, painfulness. And we have to be able to practice our zazen with all these things going on. It's just like our life. Even though we have sleepiness and tiredness and confusion and distraction, we still have to live our life. So we live our life in the midst of the stuff, and we try to keep our eyes open, we try to stay awake, and we try to keep from being, to have some clarity in the midst of our confusion.

[04:59]

some centeredness in the midst of our distraction, some concentration in the midst of our distraction. So zazen is a kind of microcosm of our usual life, but it's condensed into this very simple act. And so we can really see how within this restriction we get a real view, close magnified view of how our life is really going on all the time. But a lot of the time we tend to ignore some of the things that are going on because we have to. And so Zazen makes us very aware of the stuff that's going on. So staying awake is pretty good. And actually The purpose of Zazen, well you can say there are many purposes, but when we say the purpose, it means the purpose for this moment, for this purpose, is to stay awake, is to wake up.

[06:18]

That's what Zazen actually is, to awaken. So our eyes start to close and we have to open them up. And we start to dream, and we have to come back to being awake. And so, drifting and sleeping is kind of an enemy arising. It's not the enemy, but it's, you know, a hindrance, kind of hindrance. And waking up, continually waking up from distraction, fantasy, and sleepiness is Zazen. That effort to keep doing that is Zazen. We think that there'll be some wonderful point in our life where there won't be any distraction, no sleepiness, no fantasizing.

[07:22]

Does it get better though? How about you? Well, you know, better is a kind of fantasy. Will it get better? That's a kind of fantasy. You have to wake up from that fantasy of, will it get better? To the reality of, this is what it is. This is it. This is what's happening. But then you talk about the right way to do it. Right. So still make it your way. There's a better way to do it. So there's a right way to do it, to do something. So there's a right way to be, to do zazen. And in the midst of that correct way, we have all kinds of hindrance. So, and perfection is, looks like perfection is to do everything just right.

[08:27]

But no matter how much we try to do everything just right all the time, we can't do it. Because in the midst of your feeling that you're doing everything just right, your mind starts to drift. And your eyes start to close. So, it's not that you can sustain. Sustaining awakeness is really difficult. And Zazen is to keep coming back. So, to keep waking up, keep bringing yourself, that's our real life, is that we're always drifting off, always falling off, but we have a place to come back to, we have a way to come back. And so the drifting off is also part of the zazen, your eyes falling, closing, your mind drifting, fantasies coming up, is also part of zazen, as long as the effort is always there, to be aware and awake.

[09:29]

Without the effort, then he can fall into good and bad. But the effort itself is zazen. That's the perfection. It's not that you always do everything right. Sometimes you do it right, sometimes you do it wrong. And both purposes are perfection. But if you think that Doing it always right is perfection, and doing it wrong is not. Then, you have a big problem, because you can never get it right. Well, in some traditions, there's meditation with closed eyes, and some people have told me that they don't have any trouble staying awake. Well, in our tradition we say, after you've been sitting for 50 years, you can keep your eyes closed.

[10:42]

Some traditions do. They say when you do meditation you should keep your eyes closed. But ours doesn't. So I'm talking about our tradition, you know. And I don't want to argue about some other what's best or right. It's just our tradition, our way of teaching people. And if I say this is the right way and all other ways are wrong, then that's another big problem. Anyway, this is just our way of what we do. And maybe someone else does it a different way. It's OK if they teach that way. Should the eyes be focused or unfocused, or struggling between the two? Struggling between the two. Well, you know, if I'm doing Zazen and I'm looking at this post in front of me, usually I say, I am looking at this post.

[11:46]

But in Zazen, we don't say, I am looking at this post. We take the I out. And just say, looking, or seeing. Seeing, you see, it's not that I see this person, but there is just seeing. So, there's no particular thing to focus on, it's just the eyes are open and they are seeing. The ears are open and there's hearing. Our body is open and there's feeling. The nose is open and there's smelling. And the tongue is open, and it's tasting. But there's not a purpose. I don't try to hear something. I don't try to taste something. Or I don't try to feel something. I don't try to see something. It's just that the eyes are open, like the ears. So, if people, because we're used to focusing with our eyes on a particular object, it seems a little strange to just have the eyes open,

[12:52]

without looking for something. Or thinking about it. But it doesn't seem strange to have our ears open without trying to hear something. We just hear, you know, the dog barks and there's something heard. And when we have the eyes open, the buck moves and there's something seen. But we don't try to look at the buck. We don't try to hear the airplane, or the kids outside, or the dishes being done. Hearing hears. Seeing sees. Touching feels. The nose smells. That's all. And to be that open, without making any discrimination about it, with how we sit and zazen.

[13:53]

So it's very important, not discriminating. Usually, because we have some purpose in life, we are always discriminating, and setting one thing up against another, and comparing, and naming, and making sense out of the world. You have to make some sense out of the world in order to survive. But when we sit satsang, we don't have to make sense of the world. It's not necessary. In other words, the world has its own sense. Our lives have its own sense. Our life has its own sense just through pure, non-conditioned being. So we're always conditioning our life through discriminating. And in satsang, we have the opportunity to let go of that discriminating mind. and just let everything be as it is. That's called returning to our original mind, original undivided mind.

[15:00]

Discrimination means to divide. So whether we realize it or not, we're always dividing the world up to this and that. And it's very difficult to see it as one piece. But we don't usually see it as one piece. So when we practice Zazen, we have the opportunity to just experience the world as one piece, without discriminating, without dividing it up, without naming. Everything is just as it is. That's kind of rare. and maybe frightening if we're insecure about the meaning of our lives.

[16:14]

So, just seeing seems... my eyes can't meditate because I don't see anything, so I don't have as many thoughts maybe that I want to cling to. When my eyes are open, I want to make sense of what I'm seeing or do something with that. It's different. You know, sometimes we think that there are an inner world and outer world. And we have a feeling of my inner world. If I close my eyes, then I have an inner world. And then, outside of this body, the mind is an outer world. And that's a way of dividing up the world, to close ourselves off from the so-called outer world.

[17:19]

But actually, outer and inner don't exist. It's only another way of discriminating. by asking, where is the point to yourself? What is it? Where is it that is the most, the place where you really feel it is yourself? And you can keep looking for that place, and you can keep looking for it inside somewhere, but somehow It's never satisfying. You never really get satisfied as to where is the real you. Because you can just keep taking away parts. But you can also point to that post and you can say, there I am. There's me. So it's important not to close ourself off from

[18:26]

so-called outside world. And some people meditate by closing themselves off from the outside world. Even though we sit zazen in a special place that creates an atmosphere for sitting, you still never get away from the world. the so-called world outside of your body. Breathing itself is to inhale the world. Inhaling, we come to life. Exhaling, we let go of life. And we're interacting always with what's around us. So our self plus what's around us together with what's around us is what we can call ourself.

[19:28]

If you close off all the air in the room, you quickly find out what yourself is. So, how to interact with our surroundings is how we take care of ourself. Taking care of our surroundings is taking care of ourself, in a very big sense. Very much what Zazen is about, even though we sit cross-legged, don't move, when we get up off a cushion, it's still Zazen. Interacting with our surroundings, being part of our surroundings. Don't really exist apart from our surroundings, even though we feel independent. So that's our understanding.

[20:33]

And it's not a usual way of thinking, but I think we can see that. Why do you face the wall? Sit down. Why do you face the wall? Face the wall. Well, sometimes we face the wall, sometimes we face center. But facing the wall Either way is okay. But the traditional way is to sit facing the wall. You could say that there's less distraction. I think that's a good reason for facing the wall. When we sit, we don't try to put something in front of us. Even if you sit on the top of a mountain facing a beautiful landscape, once you start really concentrating on Zazen, you don't even see it, or it doesn't have that much meaning for you.

[21:46]

So, whether you face the wall or not, it doesn't really matter. So, but facing the wall is less distracting. I remember one time, I was sitting in a place in the country, and the house had wonderful glass windows facing the meadow. And I thought, oh, I'm going to sit in front of the window. And it would be wonderful to look at the meadow. But as soon as I sat down, the meadow wasn't any different than the wall. I think I'd like to talk a little bit about comfort.

[22:50]

In Zazen, we have to find out how to have true comfort, which doesn't mean how to arrange from the outside, but how to arrange ourself from the inside, so-called inside. Here we are talking about inside and outside. For this purpose, we can talk about inside and outside. Internally, we find comfort. So in our lives, we're always arranging our equipment, as my teaching used to say, constantly arranging our equipment in order to be comfortable. No matter how comfortable we try to set ourselves up to be, at some point it becomes uncomfortable. And I don't care, you know, you can have a huge bed, a water bed with silk pillows and down comforters, but at some point you want to get up and move.

[23:54]

And if you can't, you start feeling very uncomfortable. So no matter what our position is, At some point, you're going to feel uncomfortable. Now, if you were to lie down to do Zazen, you may feel, well, that's a good, comfortable way. But if you've never been sick and had to stay in bed for a while, you find that you really would love to get up. You'll get very uncomfortable lying in bed. So no matter how we arrange ourselves, we start to get uncomfortable. So in order to sit for a long time, we take a posture which In the short run, it may seem uncomfortable, but in the long run, it's the most comfortable. You can actually sit for a week in that position. It's possible. We do it all the time. And it gets comfortable, and it gets uncomfortable. It gets excruciating, and it gets wonderful. And the adjustment comes through our being able to accept what's going on in the world.

[24:58]

As long as we're fighting or trying to change what's going on, the more we try to change it, the more we want it to be different, the more uncomfortable it gets. So we set up a duality through desire. Buddha says life is suffering because of desire. And we prove that to ourselves in Zazen. Zazen is how to find out what suffering is about. The purpose of Zazen is to find out what suffering is about and how to be free within. Not free from it, but how to find your freedom within suffering. Sometimes we say, you read about, Buddha said, The purpose of Buddhism is to be free from suffering. That looks like to escape from suffering.

[26:03]

But you can't escape from suffering in this world. That's what it's about. But how to find our freedom within suffering, within difficulty? Not to get rid of difficulty, but within the difficulty we have, how to have some real, true freedom. That subject, yes, excuse me. And so comfort is a funny kind of term, right? You can actually be comfortable within your pain. You find some true comfort that hasn't got anything to do with rearranging your life. It has to do with how you become one with the problem you have. So you're not separate from it. As long as we're living in this world, we have a big problem. So instead of escaping, we escape through being.

[27:08]

It's like going into it instead of pulling away from it. But even going in and pulling away can be dualistic. So how can you stay there and be comfortable? really find some ease. It's a big problem, but it's a big challenge. And if you really accept the challenge, then it brings out the best qualities of your life. That's what we're interested in. Yes? It's a confusing idea for me to not have a desire to attain, or to attack and yet know what you say of having this place where there is an ability to live with the suffering, which seems like a goal. And I'm not able to move from that confusion.

[28:14]

Well, because we kind of play with words. That's the problem. I assume that there shouldn't be a goal. We may say there's no goal, but when we say no goal, there's no selfish goal, no self-centered, vain, glorious goal in your life. But we can't possibly exist without some goal, and we can't exist without desire. Desire is life force. But rather than cutting off desire, as you may read someplace, or not having a goal, as you may read someplace, return desire in a satisfying way, truly satisfying way. And there's a goal. But the goal is not to go from here to there.

[29:16]

The goal is to be here. So each step of the way is the goal. It's not that at the end of the goal something That's our goal, is to really come down to here. But it's very hard to come down to here. Maybe the hardest thing, because we think we have to have a goal out there. And we do. I'm not saying we shouldn't. We have to have some motivation. But what is our true purpose? It's important. What is our true purpose? When we're doing our walking meditation, we may go out to the flats and then come back. That's a kind of goal that we set for ourselves. But the purpose is just to walk, just to be where we are in each step.

[30:17]

Other times it's so strong that I sort of say, well, this is what's happening. I mean, I'm not sure if we're in the line of being so not attached that you're, stop it, or just examine things. What is it I can learn? I'm confused about that. Yeah. Well, our imagination and fantasy is pretty strong, and it comes up. Whether we call it up or not, when you sit in Zazen, you feel it, you know, you concentrate on your body and on breathing. But your mind is used to anesthetizing and you feel a lot of needs, love, you know, it's a big one. Everybody in this room has the same feeling you do, I'm sure. And most of the meditation subjects that go on in Zendo are love, sex, wanting this and wanting that, and dreaming about this and dreaming about that.

[32:08]

And a little bit of it goes into watching your breath and sitting up straight. But nevertheless, it's very strong. And you may feel that you're failing because you're not doing what you intend to do. But that's because we feel that we have to place so much emphasis on our thinking mind. That's why Zazen is so wonderful. It's the practice of the body and the mind. It's body-mind. Zazen is body-mind. And even though the mind is racing ahead, you know, dreaming up all kinds of stuff, the body's still sitting. So while the mind is running off, the body's sitting. And sometimes you have enough concentration and subtleness and effort to let go of that and bring your attention back, you know?

[33:16]

And sometimes you don't. Sometimes you sit through the whole period of Zazen and it's just in a while, from one end to the next. But, you can't judge it. You just continue to sit over and over again. And, one of the big problems we have, is we're always judging our life as to whether it's working or not, or whether to have it on or off. In Zazen, the main thing is to let go of that kind of judgment. doesn't mean that you don't make the effort to do your best. You do. If, when you're sitting, you just say, well, I'll just let my mind go. That's not zazen. That's the effort. I really want to do this. But even though I want to do this, the mind is going, whoa. That's still zazen, because you still have your intention, but your imagination is stronger than your ability.

[34:23]

But that's good zazen. Even through all of that, you still keep your intention. That's very good, Zazen. At the very end, you say, Jesus, you know, I really wanted to do that, but I couldn't, because my mind was... and just let it go at that. But your intention is still very strong. Imagine, through all that stuff, you still have that intention to continue. That's real practice. Isn't there a lot you want to know from paying attention to what comes up? Not that you're necessarily going to deal with it at that point. Like what kind of thing do you mean? Well, along the line of pre-association and what is coming up for you at that time. In a psychological way, you mean? Well, yeah. It is the main distraction, even though your attention is to clear your mind.

[35:39]

It seems to me that's important. That's usually something that we know about before we sit in Zazen. That's usually something that we know about before we sit in Zazen. Whether we sit in Zazen or not, we usually know what we need. Our desire is usually pretty strong before we sit in Zazen or not. And time for analysis, it may be a good time for analysis, you know, but we can pick another time for analysis. This is the kind of time that we pick for just existence, pure existence, just to let it be. And there's always some question, you know, how we should take care of the stuff that's coming up. And maybe we feel that, you know, here's an opportunity look at this stuff and analyze it, and see, well, just what do I need and what not?

[36:40]

That's valid. You know, it is valid. And whether you think about it or not, you recognize that. But to use that as a time for analyzing and making a point of it, that's beside the point. It's really hard to stick with the point. Really hard to stay with the point of what we're doing. So that even something really good, like analyzing that, is not so good. It's not because it's not what you're doing. So it's very hard to do pure zazen. To just do it and let things be. Do you think in some way that when your mind is full of thoughts of your problems and so forth, that if you can keep dropping them and going back to your breath, you're in a way taking care of those problems and making somewhat larger sense?

[37:57]

Well, in some sense, in a certain way. See, the problems that are coming up are ideas about the problems that we have. Whereas the breath is what's actually happening. You can say ideas and thoughts are what are happening, but usually the ideas and thoughts are about something. And zazen is not about something else. So, you don't ignore the thoughts that come up. You let them come up and you see them, and let them go. You always recognize the thought. You don't just disregard it. The thought comes up. But your intention is not to take up a thought, but to sit without discriminating. And you just let it be, no matter how juicy, or wonderful, or insightful, or monumental this thought is, to be able to let it go.

[39:10]

It may be difficult, and you may think, well, geez, there goes my whole life slipping away. If I only could grab on that thought, I would have it all figured out. If you have the kind of calms and settlements in mind where you could let go of that, you don't have such big problems. On the other hand, if you really feel that you should be thinking about something and major breakthrough comes in your life, go ahead and think about it. Don't be so attached to not thinking. There's always room for everything. But what we're talking about is, as a practice, you don't do that. But when something comes up that you really feel that you should think about, that seems vital to you, it's up to you. I'm telling you how to sit zazen, but I'm not telling you what to do. think about something, go ahead.

[40:17]

I mean, I do that. A lot. I'm sitting in Zazen with some friends in Illinois, you know, and I have to think about it. I just do it, and then I let it go to the extent that I need to deal with it. If you think that you're letting go of something, and it creates an anxiety in you, better to maybe deal with it. But we also have, say, you come to sit zazen, and your lover has just left two days ago, and your mind is in complete turmoil, and you're sitting there, and all you can do is think about how you hurt. It's still good to sit. As a matter of fact, it may be the best thing to do, because at least you're not driving around in circles. Zazen is a way to deal with some difficulties.

[41:24]

It's a way to really take hold and just sit down with something difficult, something impossible. And there are certain things that are even more difficult than you can handle in Zazen. In which case, good luck. But I myself have always found that I always take the most difficult things to Zazen. My most difficult states, I've always been able to take with me to Zazen. It's a big, big help. Could you say something about the importance of sitting at a stirrer? There's a very famous example of a top.

[42:33]

When you spin a top, and it's really spinning perfectly, it doesn't look like it's moving. It looks like it's standing still. And it's only when you touch it that it goes across the floor. But while it's spinning, you can swear it was just standing still. In Zazen, it's just like that. Although we're sitting still, even though you're sitting still, you don't minimize your life energy. But life energy is concentrated in this small space. So Zazen, in Zazen, all of this life energy is concentrated in this very small space. That's why your knees hurt. That's why you get uncomfortable, because you have a tremendous amount of energy concentrated in this narrow posture.

[43:38]

And in order to contain it, you have to find out how to contain it, and how to make yourself comfortable with it, with your life energy, without waving your arms around, moving around, how to sit still with it. And when you can sit still with it, then it expresses itself in a way that doesn't find expression when you're moving around. What if a mosquito is buzzing around you, and you know for sure it's getting a little on you? Well, you know, the flies sometimes come into the zinder, patience, not waiting for the fly to leave, but accepting that the fly no longer belongs to your world.

[44:44]

And whatever the fly does is extremely annoying. But if you allow the fly to be part of your world, the fly will land on your mother's And you can try to feel what his feet are doing. And he's kind of cute. And you're not so worried about the sensations particularly at that point. You're more open to what's actually happening between the interplay between yourself and the fly. And the mosquito. The mosquito is a little bit more dangerous. Before you sit, you can rub on cutters or off, I don't know what they have these days, a mosquito repellent?

[45:50]

Oh yes, a repellent. But if you can't get rid of the mosquito, you could have mosquito netting. But if you can't get rid of that mosquito, then what would you do? I just blew that one in. Well, there are different ways. I can't tell you how to deal with this, either. There's something you have to figure out. But I can tell you what I would do. But I don't recommend it for you. Sometimes I just let the mosquito do what the mosquito has to do. Sometimes they stick that little thing in. But if you don't swap them, they pull it out. And it doesn't make an itch.

[46:54]

Now I can't guarantee you that's true. But mosquitoes also carry disease, so it's not a good idea to let them do it. I think we have a few more minutes and then people have to get back to work. Okay, I talked about, when I talked about mind this morning, I talked about big mind, right?

[48:30]

Now I'm talking about small mind. But if I may say so, your message is very clear. It's just a question of how we perceive it and how we apply it. Yes. Thank you. Thank you very much. I appreciate your coming. Thank you. This can go on forever, can't it? Thank you very much.

[49:12]

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