Now? Yes. Okay. Did you hear anything I said before? I don't have to start all over again? No. Okay. So I thought, well, Ross had brought a, Ross Blum, who's sitting right there, had brought a koan to my attention relatively recently. And so him and I got together one day, about a week ago, and read it together. So I thought, well, I can talk about that koan. It's about mistakes, and this started as a mistake. And usually Sojin and Suzuki Roshi says that talks are mistakes on purpose. So there we go. Having said that, let me read the koan, the case. So the case is the case 13 of the Mumonkan, and this is a book, it's a commentary by Senkei Shibayama, and it's sent comments on the Mumonkan.

[01:23]

It's a translation. And so case number 13 says, Tokusan carried his bowls. And the koan is this. Tokusan one day came down to the dining room carrying his bowls. Seppo said, old master, the bell has not rung and the drum has not yet been struck. Where are you going with your bowls? Toku-san at once turned back to his room. Seppo told this incident to Ganto, who remarked, great master though he is, Toku-san has not yet grasped the last word of Zen. Hearing of it, Toku-san sent his attendant to call Ganto in and asked, Do you not approve of me?"

[02:26]

Ganto whispered his reply to him. Tokusan was satisfied and silent. The next day, Tokusan appeared on the rostrum. Sure enough, his talk was different from the usual ones. Ganto came in front of the monastery, laughed heartily, clapping his hands, and said, what a great joy it is. The old master has now grasped the last word of Zen. From now on, nobody in the world can ever make light of him. And then there's Mumon's commentary. which reads, as for the last word of Zen, neither Ganto nor Tokusan has ever heard of it, even in a dream. If I examine it carefully, they are like puppets set on a shelf.

[03:36]

If you understand, and then there's a poem, if you understand the first word of Zen, you will know the last word. The last word or the first word, it, is not a word. So it's an enigmatic koan, like most koans are. And I think a koan has three levels of meaning. One is the literal or the dual meaning, which is the story itself. So every koan can be interpreted in different ways, turned in different ways. And in this first literal meaning, you could interpret it as somebody's right and somebody's wrong. which is kind of a Hinayana dualistic way of understanding things and understanding mistakes or perfection and imperfection.

[04:52]

Then there's the traditional non-dual Mahayana meaning, which comes forth and comes to light in the commentaries of Muhammad and Zenkei. And then there's the, what it means for us today. So if we have the story, then we have the commentary and then we have what it means, what the story means for us today and how it comes up in our life in this kind of situation where there's a mistake. Peter makes a mistake related to, you know, Sojan going to Monson rivers, uh, And then I make the mistake. Give a talk to you. Decided to make the mistake. So this is how the koan comes up in our life.

[05:56]

And that's sort of the third level of meaning of it. So maybe the general theme of the koan is, like I said, it's about the meaning of mistakes. And maybe the three, just like there are three characters, there are three main characters in the story. There's Tokusan, there's Ganto, and there's Seppo. And so the three characters represent different meanings of mistakes. Tokusan represents a meaningful mistake. Meaningful mistake is a mistake that's not made on purpose, but it reveals some meaning, or it can be used to reveal some meaning, or you can, some meaning is revealed to you through the mistake. The second kind of mistake is mistake on purpose.

[07:04]

Oh, and the meaningful mistake could also, which is Toku-san is making in the story, could say it's also the perfection of imperfection, which is Mahayana understanding of perfection and imperfection. Ganto represents making a mistake on purpose, a different kind of mistake. And so this is the imperfection of perfection. And it's like doing something, like giving a talk or getting married or having children, doing something that you know is going to create big problems, but you do it anyway. So that's like a mistaken purpose. And it can be strategic.

[08:07]

Sometimes you can devise a strategy where you know you're going to do something that is going to be a mistake in some way, but you do it anyway. Mistake in the sense that it's going to help in one way and it's not going to be helpful in another way. It's going to create more problems that you're going to have to deal with. And then the third type of mistake is represented by seppo, which we could say is just a mistake. And this kind of mistake is where it's not intended, it's not on purpose, but you don't learn anything from it either. You don't learn anything from the mistake, and it's not intended either. So this, the story is telling us is Seppo's mistake and Ganto is making a mistake on purpose to try to help Seppo, try to help Seppo learn something from his mistake.

[09:10]

So, You know, there are many examples of meaningful mistakes. And I mentioned a few in terms of mistakes on purpose. But meaningful mistake, he makes a mistake, he doesn't come, he's coming at the wrong time. Toku-san comes to the dining room when the bell has not rung yet. So I think the story and the commentary doesn't see that as a mistaken purpose. It's a genuine mistake, but it's a meaningful one because Toku-san uses that to reveal some meaning. Or the commentary, or we can understand it in the story as revealing some meaning in how he responds.

[10:24]

He just turns around and goes back to his quarters. And also that a teacher is not perfect. So a master is not somebody who's always on top and always perfect and never making a mistake or never acting in a way that could appear as imperfect. meaningful mistakes. I'm a therapist, psychologist, and that's part of our trade, that we thrive on mistakes in some way. and make a living out of mistakes. Our own and those of our clients, right? Because, you know, to be a therapist you have to have had a lot of problems yourself.

[11:27]

That led you there to begin with, right? And that's sort of the, people talk about the archetype of the wounded healer, right? So every healer is a wounded healer. Because only if you have some wounds would you be interested in trying to learn something about them and then being able to help somebody else with them. But also, you know, Freud, who was one of the founders of modern psychotherapy, spoke of mistaken actions that are purposeful. He called them parapraxis. And Zen is revealed in action. One of the characteristics of Zen is that the teaching is revealed in action. And so there's something in the here and now that takes place that creates a dynamic relationship, both a tension and a resolution of the tension.

[12:31]

And often those are the brief, the interactions that take place in the therapist-client relationship. And one of the mistakes I made recently was that I started seeing somebody who came back to see me after several years. And now I'm, well, okay. I do what's called variable length sessions. Most people are used to knowing that people do 50-minute sessions. I'm in a school that we do variable length, so it's not always a fixed time. But I also sometimes have set times, begins at such time, ends at such time. So the standard time is 50 minutes, and in this one, But now I've been doing 45 minutes for the standard, and I failed to tell this client who was coming back that now, and with him, I've always done a fixed time, because he's very sensitive about the time, you know, and being at or take any time from his time and what he's paying for.

[13:45]

And that in itself becomes very meaningful. So I failed to tell him that now I don't do 50 minutes, I do 45. So I ended the session at 45 and he was really upset, but he didn't say anything. He came back the next time and he was in a rage. You know, and he was seeing me as somebody who was trying, here's another person like in his life who wants to take advantage of him. screw him over and take things away from him and he thought he could trust me and so on and so forth. So it became a mistake that became the grounds for a whole series of projections that reveal something about what's going on in his mind and what happens for him in relationships. And I acknowledged my mistake and said it was my mistake. And after I said it was my mistake, I didn't tell you, you know, then he felt really bad about all the things that he told me. So anyway, so that's an example of meaningful mistake.

[14:51]

You can make a mistake that you don't mean to make, but once you make it, then you can use it, you know, to reveal some meaning. But this is a different kind of meaningful mistake in the Zen story. You know, Toku-san also was known, he's the teacher of the, you know, I give you 30 blows if you're right, I give you 30 blows if you're wrong. No matter what you do, I'll hit you, you know. Which is like the stereotype of the kind of harsh Zen teaching, you know, merciless. They say also that koans are like that. You start reading a koan, and it leads you to despair, because you can't just make any sense of it. And when we read things, we want to find some meaning, and if this whole thing seems meaningless, then it's kind of despairing.

[15:56]

And Toku-san was known for, was a scholar, remember he was a scholar of the Diamond Sutra, and he went to look for a Zen teacher to prove him wrong. Wanted to show that they were wrong and they should stop doing what they were doing and instead they should study the Diamond Sutra. And so that's also a mistake. And so he goes and along the road he meets this woman by the roadside, which is kind of a mythological apparition, manifestation. We can see it in the literal sense or we can see it in the allegorical sense that it's a manifestation of Manjushri or Avalokiteshvara. And we can all appear like that to one another at different times. or be that for one another. And so she's selling cupcakes by the road.

[17:05]

And the cupcakes are called mind refreshers. And so he says, well, you know, who are you? Where are you going? And he said, well, I'm a scholar of the Diamond Sutra, you know, and so on. She said, well, the Diamond Sutra speaks of the mind of past, present and future. With which mind will you eat this cupcake. If you answer that question, I will give it to you for free. Otherwise, you're going to have to go study with the Zen teacher up the road." And he was dumbfounded, and so he went to study with the teacher up the road, whom he thought he was going to convert into a scholarly study of the Diamond Sutra. So, and then when he met Ryotan, they talked for a long time, and Ryotan said, well, it's time to go to your quarters now, where you're gonna spend the night, but you're gonna need a lamp to get there.

[18:16]

So he lit up a lamp and gave it to him. But before he left, Ryotan blew the lamp out. And Toku-san there had a realization. So he left him in total pitch darkness. So he's going to the, came down to the dining room carrying his bowls and You know, the quarters, the abbot's quarters, in traditional Zen teaching, represents the absolute, or the stillness within activity. And the dining room represents activity. So this kind of going back and forth, you know, coming on time, not being on time,

[19:26]

represents this going back and forth between the phenomenal world and the noumenal world or the stillness of activity and the activity of stillness. Which is a little bit like how we go back and forth from our home to the practice place. And usually we think that the zendo is a spiritual home, and our worldly home is what we have to leave. But here, Toku-san is representing the world of stillness by going back to his quarters. So it kind of has the reverse meaning. He's representing the suchness just by walking back to where he came from.

[20:29]

So that's kind of an interesting koan. He didn't go to the zendo to sit, he just went back to his room. And so sometimes, you know, we feel like the zendo is a haven, is our home away from home, and a kind of place where we come to find ourselves. And yet sometimes we come to the zendo and we find more problems. And going back home feels like finding the true home. So that's kind of a con, you know, which one is the true home? Which one is the world of stillness and which one is the world of activity? And sometimes it looks like one side, sometimes it's really the other. Sometimes really leaving is finding home. Sometimes leaving home and coming here is finding home.

[21:38]

And that changes for different people at different times. Then Semple says, the old master, the bell has not rung and the drum has not yet been struck. Where are you going with your bowls? So the story says that this represents, the commentary says this represents Seppo's kind of youthful, Seppo was the younger disciple, and it represents kind of this youthful vigor of criticizing the teacher with the assumption that the teacher is supposed to be perfect. And here, aha, you know, I found a flaw. You know?

[22:40]

This, I found the teacher making a mistake. When it really was it, is it a mistake? You know, when Toku-san didn't come on time, was he mindful or was he mindless? Or not being in time, what does it mean? Where was he when he wasn't on time? Where was he? What is he doing? Is he concentrated? Or is he in some kind of fantasy? And you can't, you know, you can't really say which one is it. So we have the practice of trying to be mindful and doing things in a certain way.

[23:41]

But if you don't do it in a particular way or you make a mistake, the meaning of that is not so clear. So Seppo told this incident to Ganto, who remarked, great master though he is, Tokusan has not yet grasped the last word of Zen. So here it sounds like this is something that Seppo told Ganto, and Ganto tells this back to Seppo. And it sounds like Ganto is also joining Seppo in criticizing the teacher and saying, oh, you know, this great Zen teacher, look at him. He doesn't really understand. He doesn't get it.

[24:46]

He's not realized. So there's this whole theme of sort of finding a mistake. which is a kind of fault finding is one of the precepts. It's not to find mistakes. We all have a tendency to be fault finding and finding mistakes and getting into this thing about who's doing it right and who's doing it wrong and what's the right way of doing. And all of that can become very egotistical. And sometimes in Zen, that's sort of called the stink of Zen, where the practice itself becomes a negotistical kind of exchange where the point is missed. Or, on the other hand, is that the way that the point is brought forth in all these kind of challenging exchanges?

[25:54]

What's the use? I mean, are you trying to be right? Or are you trying to bring forth something in yourself or in me through that exchange? So... So this is part of the, the commentary says that, let's see, there's something about the puppets. Did I read that? Yeah. Mumon's commentary. If I examine it carefully, they're like puppets set on a shelf. So the puppets set on a shelf refers to that Ganto is acting. So this is a Zen drama. So this kind of argument is not for real. It's pretend. is make-believe. And this is part of the mistake on purpose. It's a kind of Zen antics.

[26:56]

Zen antics. There's a word in that in English, no? Antics. Antics. Zen antics. Because Ganto is not really criticizing Toku-san. So he's sort of acting, either he's praising Toku-san by pretending to be putting him down like he's not really realized, or he's verbalizing for Seppo what Seppo's thinking, what's behind Seppo's criticism of Toku-san, of the teacher. So hearing of it, Toku-san sent his attendant to call Ganto in. So word came to Toku-san that Ganto, that Seppo and Ganto had had this conversation.

[28:00]

So he asked Ganto to come and he asked him, do you not approve of me? So it's interesting, here he's being very humble. It looks like he's asking for approval. You've been saying that I'm not a real Zen teacher, that I'm not a true student of the way. Does that mean you don't approve of me? Which is interesting how humble he is, he's being in that question, as opposed to the way he's known about being this teacher who's always hitting everybody, no matter what you do, which is kind of a frustrating aspect of a teacher, who is always telling you you're wrong, whatever you're doing, it's always wrong, and can drive you nuts that way, and makes you wonder whether that's really a right way of teaching.

[29:11]

Sometimes, you know, even if you're right, you're wrong. No matter what you say, you'll be hit, whether literally or metaphorically, to drive you to a place of despair where you have to kind of let go of everything. But it seems merciless and not very kind. But here, he's being the opposite of that. He's saying, do you not approve of me? Or do you approve of me? Which takes a lot of sincerity and humbleness to say, well, do you think I'm making a mistake? Is this a mistake? Maybe I was wrong. So the teacher doesn't have to kind of maintain this image of perfection.

[30:23]

Or the whole has a hole in it. And this hole in the whole is a foundation of the other dependent nature. So to be able to learn from mistakes or to be able to, if you feel wounded, to derive strength from the wound and from being vulnerable. As opposed to pretending that you're not wounded or it doesn't hurt or you don't feel insecure or something like that. And that's really important for relationships too. of any kind. So he says, do you not approve of me? And Ganto whispered his reply to him. Tokusan was satisfied and silent. The next day Tokusan, so we don't know what he said to him.

[31:25]

So supposedly the Ganto explained what he was up to, his mistake on purpose, what he was trying to, how he was trying to help Seppo. How are we doing with time? Okay. I'm going to leave some time for questions and it's a kind of people may want to have things to say about this. Um, uh, so he explained to him what he was up to and how he was trying to help Seppo by pretending to be putting Toku-san down. And at the end, being also acting like, oh, now he got it, I'm so happy, and started clapping, you know? You know, my teacher's a real teacher, yay! He really gives a good talk now, now he's really on top of things.

[32:31]

Which is kind of a silly, childish way of looking at practice in terms of top-down and idealization and so on and so forth. But if we take it literally, it's really a bad story, right? If we take it like that's really what's happening, then we wouldn't feel so good about Zen. But thank goodness we have the commentary to explain it to us, that this is not as it appears to be, and that things are always, you know, the opposite of what they appear to be at the same time that they are the way they are. But there is this Zen way of, you know, when you want to praise, you criticize, and when you want to criticize, you praise. And when you want to criticize one person, you criticize the other person.

[33:39]

So this is what makes Zen so kind of exasperating. So when Ganto wants to criticize Seppo, he criticizes Tokusan. And when he wants to praise Tokusan, he puts him down. But when he's putting him down, he's actually praising him. And at the end, you know, he pretends to be so happy about that now, you know, now nobody can mess with him. Now he's, you know, the Terminator. So anyway, we'll terminate with that. Do you have any questions, Ed, or comments? Well, there's not too many of us today, so we have plenty of time. Yes, Baika?

[34:44]

I really enjoyed your talk, and I would like to talk some more, but I have to take Henry to the other room. Okay. That's a mistake on purpose. Yes. You can say anything you want or ask anything. Don't hold it back. But on the other hand, there's nothing to say. There's nothing to say. Yes. Well, that's the first example that I gave was an example of a mistake, a meaningful mistake.

[36:02]

The mistake on purpose sometimes is, you know, I mean, I think a lot of these aspects of the story are happening in our relationships. here and are happening in our relationships to the teacher and are happening in the relationship between the students. And it's a way, I think this is why Ross was interested in the Koan as a way of understanding some things that have been going on in the Sangha, which I'm not really at liberty to say. But I would say it's very much of a living koan.

[37:09]

And, you know, how we relate to each other and how we practice and how we try to do things in a certain way and we have certain forms that we try to keep. But what's the point of the form and what's the point of our communication? you know, we catch ourselves. Which I do some of the time as a way of making a mistake and thinking I'm doing it right when actually that's not the point.

[38:49]

Yeah, so we, yeah, I think that we all go from, from one side to the other, sometimes, you know, having this idealized version of the teacher, and then sometimes really getting disappointed by perceiving some shortcoming. And then, and then feeling restored to our original vision at a different moment when we see the teacher in a, in a positive light. Yes. I mean, I really love the distinction between a meaningful mistake, meaning one that the teacher did not necessarily have to set up and stage and be deliberate about, but makes use of afterward. And I think often I've encountered a Zen teacher or a therapist who made what turned out to be a terrible mistake vis-a-vis me. or vis-a-vis somebody else.

[40:02]

I mean, I'd see it happen and I'd think, how could you not know that that was a terrible thing to do? And sometimes the teacher or the therapist gets defensive and tries to make you believe that they did it on purpose in order to treat And it feels to me much more honest and actually less crazy-making to do what you did, which is to say, I made a mistake. And isn't it useful that the mistake was made? And I know that I have wanted to excuse the teacher or the therapist by pretending that they really knew. Because I'd like to imagine a world where somebody could be so wise and so perfect that they would even know what blunders needed to be made to heal me.

[41:04]

But that's not the world I live in. And it really feels so healthy for me to learn instead how a teacher can hold his place and say, oh, I made a mistake. I went to the dining room at the wrong time with my balls. Now, let's use it. I mean, that's something I need to learn so that I'd be able to acknowledge my mistakes with my students and for life, and just say, oh, I made a mistake. That's turned out to be the most helpful thing my therapist ever gave me, was showing me how to be with a mistake she made. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, and working with imperfection is part of perfection. That's, I think, part of our practice. And it's also the basis for compassion. Perfectionist birthday.

[42:08]

So far so good. We'll see what happens. Thank you. Oh, yes. Oh, thank you. very well. And being a teacher myself, I feel like it's so important to encourage and be very positive with the students. And when they make mistakes, to help them in the space. And help them understand what it is that they're not making quite correctly. But still bring a lot of warmth and comfort and praise around them. Yeah. Yeah.

[43:18]

Yeah. Well, it's, you know, I think this is kind of extreme. This is an aspect of Zen that's kind of an extreme teaching. I think, you know, because usually if you, if you, it's like if you have two children, right, and you, you depress one, you press the other. Or to criticize one, you criticize the other. That would lead to pandemonium, right? You know, hurt feelings. You know, why are you telling me? I hear that from my kids all the time, you know. Why, you know, you don't let me do this and you let so-and-so do that. You know, or when I do something good, you never say that was great. And when my brother does something, you know, good, then you say that's great. This comes up a lot with children, and it happens between the teacher and the student.

[44:26]

Why is the teacher, you know, giving something to one student and not the other? And usually the kind way, I think, works better for the most part and helps to maintain the relationships over time. This other extreme way, although it's absolute in some sense, meaning that, okay, if they praise somebody else for having the qualities that you have, So it's a test of, well, how attached are you to your qualities? You think you have these qualities, but the teacher, instead of saying, oh, you have these wonderful qualities, he says, oh, look, so-and-so has these wonderful qualities. Right? How attached are you to your qualities? And how compassionate or how much sympathetic joy do you have towards the very things you think somebody should recognize in you, they're being recognized in somebody else, not you.

[45:35]

So it really pushes you towards freedom, meaning that, well, if you think you have those qualities, you know, and you would like to be recognized, are you able to give that recognition to somebody else? And if you're falsely criticized, okay, can you forgive somebody for making a mistake? Or can you deal with what comes up in you for being falsely criticized? Can you eat the blame at times? But this very advanced practice, You know, it's very advanced practice, and you can't do it with everybody, and you can't do it all the time, because, you know, you won't have any relationships. And it's very difficult, but there's truth in it, too.

[46:37]

Okay, thank you. Peace out.

[46:50]

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