But... I think it's really a pity that that's the way, you know, and I've been to Ireland a lot, and you go to the Ceilidhs there, and the grandfathers are dancing with their nieces or granddaughters, and the young people are dancing very vigorously in the middle, but there's a whole circle of all kinds of ages, and children and teenagers get a chance to be with older people. And in the flamenco dancing, I've seen movies where you see these wonderful, sturdy old ladies, you know, with their portly gentleman partners. It's very fine to me to see that. And I think that we're fortunate in the Zen culture because we do look to the wisdom of our elder teachers, Blanche, and of course Mel, and of Yvonne, Rand, or a couple, three I could name.

[01:15]

and we value that wisdom and can profit from it, and also in our sangha we get a chance to be with just everybody, and it's not segregated in the way that some in our culture are, and the result is that I think that people often do not know how to grow old. I'm going to read a letter from Isak Dinesen's letters. The Danish writer from Africa, she wrote to her sister. I think there are many delightful children who cannot stand growing up. They come to nothing. And in the same way, later in life, there are many people who cannot endure age.

[02:20]

The good qualities they had in their youth disappear and nothing comes to replace them. It is as if they merely fade without maturing. I have actually often thought about this, how age is the greatest test for everyone. Just as with good wine, it takes a really good vintage to stand up to long keeping." And she goes on to say that this also applies to the arts, that there are some things that are very fine and fun and entertaining in the moment, but after fifty years they've gone." And she goes on to say, the lesser harvest is best drunk right away without illusions, it goes down well enough, but the really good one

[03:28]

what charm and worth it acquires through being matured." So, and I think that you may have noticed yourself that people get old at different ages. I mean, sometimes people just seem to stop somewhere along the way and they just don't growing anymore and I really I don't know whether that's from some disappointment or trauma or regrets about what might have been that hit you the saddest words of tongue or pen are those sad words it might have been but but I Somehow life loses zest for them and to me the symptoms are, that show, is this... that where the past becomes much more vital and absorbing to you than the present.

[04:41]

And I have a friend from high school, actually, she lives in Florida like many of my high school mates. And I talked to her on the phone sometimes. She told me that there's a man, Peter Zell, who was in our class, who calls her every now and then and says, Alice, you want to go to the Y dance tonight? And all his interest and talk and focus now is on everything that was so wonderful in high school. which you've been there and you know it's not so. So, but that, you know, the old soldier who's always talking about the war and so on, it just becomes that the present is not there for you. Again, and I think we're so fortunate in Zen practice because it seems to me that one of the things in old age that's very necessary to you is to have a continuing kind of social

[06:06]

surroundings that have some vitality for you, not to be isolated, and also to feel useful. And here, that's going to happen. And so, that's the social side. Now, I will admit, I think old age is easy enough for me when I'm feeling well. And of course that doesn't always continue for you. I will give you a brief update. Not probably, everybody here knows. I've just had a recurrence of breast cancer after 10 years before I had it and no problems since. And I I feel fine about that.

[07:11]

Oh, I should probably tell you, I belong to the generation of women who never told their age. But I'm 81, and I knew people are going to ask me that because everybody does. But there was a New Yorker article maybe a couple of months ago. I thought I'd kept it, but I haven't. And it was about aging, the medical side of it. And it was a surgeon who followed a geriatric specialist around. Apparently, geriatric is not the favorite specialty. It doesn't pay as well as some others. I, and your client, your patient, just go downhill, so that's not fun. But he went, this writer of this article, went to a patient interview.

[08:20]

There was this little lady, came tottering in, and she had some kind of cancer, slow-growing, and arthritis, and I don't know, several other things that when I read it sounded to me a kind of dire that he would have wanted to talk about. But what he was interested in, the geriatric specialist, was her gums and her feet. Because the biggest danger to old people is falling down. And if you take apparently more than four medications, your chances of falling down increase drastically. Also, your feet, of course, have a lot to do with balance, and she couldn't take care of her own feet because of the arthritis, so he got her a regular appointment with a

[09:23]

podiatrist, and two years later, this woman in her middle or late 80s was still living at home taking care of herself. So, I guess I'm going to say, take care of your feet. Take care of your gums. Because if you can't eat anything but porridge, it's not going to be pleasant. And, women have your mammograms. Both of the times that I have had cancer, it's been caught early on a mammogram. I'm happy to tell you the surgery was successful, and I'm going to have radiation pretty soon, but, you know, that's okay. It's just a month out of my life, and I always like to lie around and read. I will say I've had many of these episodes in my life where I've had cysts or something that I've been threatened with breast cancer five or six times, and I have always, always, always worried about it.

[10:48]

I mean, even when I wasn't thinking about it on the surface, it's just been this little, you know, underneath the surface, how's this going to turn out? Now, they took this mammogram in December and said, come back in six months. And I said, you know, what do you mean? What does that mean? Just come back in six months. I said, well, that's not acceptable. I need to know more than that. So they told me, well, we think it's a cyst. We think it's benign. But because you've had had breast cancer before, We want you not to fall through the cracks. So the second time I went back, sure enough, it was. But I want to say that I wasn't worried in between. I really, really did not worry about it. Mary said, I hope this is true, that it's a fruit of practice.

[11:49]

That would be very good to think, wouldn't it? So, I thought, well, I'm not going to have a lot of sofa time here. I better get a whole bunch of good books. So, I got a book. I mean, the one I started on was called, was called, what was it called? Horse Heaven, Horse Heaven by Jane Smiley. Now, it's all about raising and breeding and racing horses. And horses are, of course, nobody could resist them. They're so beautiful and lovable. However, I have never had one scintilla of interest in horse racing.

[12:56]

But now when there's a something about Golden Gate Field in the sports page, I read it. That book was just fascinating. And there was somebody in the book of one of the good guys. I think his name was Foley. And he was a horse trainer of thoroughbreds. And on the wall of his office, he had a list And I just love lists of the ten things you need to do to, you know, whatever. So I read this list and it's called the Tibetan Book of Thoroughbred Training. And here are the rules. Do not pay attention or investigate. Leave your mind in its own sphere. Two, do not see any fault anywhere.

[13:57]

Three, Do not take anything to heart. Four, do not hanker after signs of progress. Five, although this may be called inattention, do not fall prey to laziness. Six, be in a state of constant inspection. Now, there's things about this cannot parse, you know. I don't see how you can do not pay attention or investigate and still be in a state of constant attention. It doesn't compute. But some of these other rules are very good Zen rules. Inspection, yeah, yeah. I take that to mean attention. So later on in the book, Foley comes to a big crisis in his life, and he hasn't even, you know how you have stuff up after a while, you don't even see it.

[15:07]

But his eye falls on this list, and he kind of goes over it in his own mind, and the second time, this time that he looks at it, this is his own kind of translation of what he said. Above all, trust. Trust that you don't need to ask questions. Trust that there is no one and nothing to blame. Trust in the fact that you are not the center of the universe. Trust that events will reveal their true nature, their true meaning, reveal their true meaning on their own. Trust that you will not be overwhelmed. Trust that you can see and understand if you have the calmness to do so." And then he ends, you must trust life.

[16:10]

You must trust life. And when I read that, it was just a wonderful feeling for me because I realized that I do. That's why I wasn't worried. I trust life now. And I didn't when I started my Zen practice. I was an anxious type. And I think that Of course, death, when you look at death, which you do when you have an illness, it could be that way, it gives you a jolt somehow. I think that we're hardwired to need to survive.

[17:13]

And actually, we admire people who just put up a big, wonderful, gallant fight and we don't want people to give up. And it's very hard for me to get my mind around the idea that I'm not going to be, you know, what's that going to be like? It just, it's a kind of a, as I say, I think it's just kind of a hardwired thing to be, to feel a gut reaction when you think about that. But actually, It has more, not being, has more reality to me now than it used to, and I just feel that I can trust that I won't be overwhelmed.

[18:21]

Do not trust that you will not be overwhelmed. And the actuality is I spent a lot of time in nursing homes when my late husband was ill, and I don't really want to live beyond being able to have some, you know, independence and competence, but we can't control that. We don't know. So you just have to trust that you will not be overwhelmed. But the other thing that happens when you're looking at cancer is that it really makes you stop and reevaluate things. And I began to think about my present and future practice and I really haven't got it all sorted out yet.

[19:27]

But I know that I want to have some change in the way that I'm practicing. I want to be quieter somehow. and not hankering after signs of progress, rule seven or whatever it was. But I just will just go on sorting that out and letting things unfold and having trust that they will unfold as they should if I'm calm enough to let them. But I think what I want to say to you finally is that I really, really think that if you absolutely trust your practice you will have a very, very good chance of becoming a very fine, mellow wine in your old age.

[20:32]

and that you will not turn to vinegar. So, thank you. If there's anything you'd like to ask me or tell me, besides my age, which I've already told you. Yes, Peter. I'm trying to figure out how I should greet you. How you should what? How I should greet you. I'm sorry, you've got to realize I'm very hard of hearing. Oh, yeah, I'm okay. I'm clean. Okay. Venerable ma'am? Oh, Megan will do. But if you want to say ma'am, I'm used to that. I was born in the South. Yes. Well, you're right, because that's what I was trying to express about the people who do get old at 50 or 40 or whatever, is that they lose the zest for the interest in life.

[22:04]

And thank you, I am interested. I've always been one of those Gemini rolling stone things, and I've done a lot of things in life, all of which I'm glad I did. I was a dancer when I was young, and I still love to dance. So I still do folk dancing, which you can do without a partner. I took up, the main thing I do every day, I took up playing the folk harp when I was in my late 60s, not a shred of music in my background. went to the community college and learned how to read music and took music theory. I take lessons, I still do, and I play every single day.

[23:08]

I remember reading a book. I always kind of wanted to have music in my life. I don't know, my parents didn't somehow think that was as important as other things. But I was interested in playing the piano and I did play a little bit when I was pregnant with my youngest daughter, which is maybe why she's such an angel. The other ones are too, Cole. I lost my train of thought. Oh, oh, but I remember reading a book called Playing the Piano for Pleasure by Charles Cook. And he said, he quoted some French count as saying, what monsieur, you do not even play the clavecin?

[24:12]

What a boring old age you are preparing for yourself. And I really think of that sometimes because to me, to have music in your life, is going to guarantee you will not have a boring old age. So, I do that. Of course, I never have the a facility to play as well as people who started when they were children. But I do go twice a month to the Veterans Hospital in Martinez and play in their dining rooms and I play in their hospice ward. And that's very, very gratifying to me to do. They think I'm hot potatoes, you know, they don't know. So I love that. And I have a good circle of musical friends. Add for the Bay Area Folk Harp Society, there are quite a few and it's, you know, I learned to play, you could too.

[25:20]

And I have, I volunteered, for a couple of years at the Albany High School doing writing coaching. And I like that. I don't know that I'll continue that particular one, but I really enjoy working with English as a second language people as a volunteer. Let's see, Cole, yes. Well, everything's so funny! Let's see. I just think, I think that's nature, don't you? I mean, you know Laura, my daughter Laura is a friend of Ko's.

[26:22]

She's got a sense of humor. And I think it's sort of... I feel like I'm kind of a resilient person, you know, stuff gets me down, but I'm like that Daruma doll, seven times down, eight times up. That's a very great mantra, I think. Do you have any skillful means to offer about... About bouncing up? Physical activity is very, very good for depression times or blue times, yeah. Go outside, take a walk in the woods. That's also wonderful. And the ocean beach. I saw, yes, Anne. Okay, that's really a long time ago.

[27:32]

I spent a lot of my life as a writer. There's another one, Sue Dunlap was around when I was first here at Zen Center, a young whippersnapper. And I'm not interested in writing anymore. I don't know, somehow that desire whatever it is that makes you want to do that. I don't have it now. But I did write a couple of books, published books, and some other things. I've done journalism and so the book about that Anne's referring to. One of them is a fairy tale for children that I made up called The Willow Maiden, and the other one is a book for young people called Maiden Crown.

[28:35]

I didn't intend it as a book for young people, but as I would begin to market it, everybody said it didn't have enough sex and violence to be an adult book. But it was a historical novel about Denmark long out of print. So I don't know why you wanted me to talk about that. I'm pushing Maiden Crown. I love that book. No, thank you. Yeah, my agent here. I bring her in for all my talk. Okay. Sue. Okay, yeah.

[29:40]

I have to have a sangha. I just cannot do without it. And I was living in Benicia for about 30 years, and my husband got Parkinson's, or something very like it. And there very quickly came a time when I couldn't keep coming in here, I couldn't leave him that long. So I had been practicing here, but I just couldn't keep doing it. And I went to, so I decided, well, the Dalai Lama says you can and should practice in your own culture. And I decided, well, I could go to a Christian church in Venetia as a sangha. And I went and I sang in the choir, which was... I liked that a lot. And I would just sit there and say, consider the lilies of the field.

[30:46]

Oh, yeah, that means... take, you know, take things as they come, accept what happens, and other things that would be Christian things I would translate in my mind into Buddhist terms. And that went on fine, not really wonderful, but, you know, it was fine until I got cancer again the first time, cancer the first time, ten years ago. And then I realized that what was holding me up with Jack's illness was not my Christian efforts, which I tried to be sincere about, but what was left of my Buddhist practice. I still I still sat when I could at home, but the thing, Sue, that got me through was just staying in the present, was that effort to just do the next thing and not make scenarios about what

[32:04]

you know, what's going to happen in the future, just doing the next thing. And I realized, well, I've got to go back to Buddhist practice because that's really the only sincere path for me. And then I found a small Vipassana group in Venetia that I'm still very fond of, and I hired somebody to come in Sunday night so that I could take take that hour or two to go sit and be with people. So it's, I'd say, and that's another answer to your question, Po, is that my Buddhist practice, I feel it holds me up in the hard times, I really do. How are we doing tomorrow? Okay, any other thing? Yeah.

[33:07]

That's surprising. If that's what was heard, that's not so. What I said, you can't control. You can't control. If you live beyond where you're... competent and independent, if you live to where you're totally incompetent and dependent, that's what you've got to accept, is help from where it comes from. That would be the practice then. However, I would just assume checkout before that happens, I have to say. Okay, if there's one last, then we should stop. Yes? I was wondering, a lot of times, I'm 45, and a lot of times I feel 80. I was wondering what advice you would have for me. Wonderful thing to end with.

[34:47]

I went back to college at 45, because my daughter was in college at the time, and I had never... I married so young, the first time I married, I never got to finish my college education, so I went to Hayward State. I was 40. I felt so old. You can't believe it. Now I feel 45 inside. I think you have to keep yourself reminded of what I said before. Old age is such a horror in this country that people, you know, are frantically at the gym and everything to keep from getting old, but if you have vital interests, if you have friends, And a circle like this where you feel you're doing something worthwhile in life, then when you're my age, you'll feel 45, I promise.

[36:03]

Thank you.

[36:06]

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