So I'll start the ball rolling by just confessing to you that I have had quite a bit of difficulty having confidence in the humidity here. I have moments of nostalgia for California where we do not have humidity. and where your clothes kind of like sit on your skin and they're just like, there's like skin clothes rather than skin sweat clothes and they kind of slide over your skin as you dance through the landscape rather than sort of like weight you down and hinder you. So I was having some difficulty accepting that I am now I grew up in this weather in Minnesota.

[01:07]

It's just like this, too, in the summer. But not quite as hot, actually. It's a little bit more north. But I confess, I was not at rest with the new situation I'm in. I wanted to be in another situation, a less humid one. But by confessing to myself and disclosing to you my lack of confidence in this situation, I'm more ready to relax with this sweaty situation. I feel already more free of the situation and I feel more relaxed. by confessing my lack of faith and relaxation, and therefore I'm more ready to play.

[02:11]

How about you? Is it Patrice or Patricia? You just said you're having a hard time. Exactly, exactly. A lot of people come to me, of course, meditators come to me and say that they're sleepy, and I say, well, just like really feel the sleepiness. A lot of people do is, of course, you don't want to be asleep, because that's not so good.

[03:22]

Of course, it's just terrible. Of course, you don't want to be drooling on your robes. It's awful. But if people resist sleepiness, they get sleepier. They use energy resisting it, and then they get sleepier. And then they resist more, and they get sleepy. But if you just feel tired in sleep and you just... So, of course, one way is just go to sleep. The other way is just, even though you're not asleep, feel how sleepy you are. Rather than put your energy into resisting it, just feel it. That doesn't take much energy to just feel how sleepy you are. And then you get to the bottom of the sleepiness and you find out that you're awake down there. And you start coming up. Yeah, it's amazing. But a lot of Zen students are sitting there, you know, feeling sleepy, and like they're really miserable. They're kind of, part of them wants to relax and go to sleep, but the other part of them, you're wasting your time, they're really unhappy.

[04:23]

Some of them are just asleep, they're okay too. But a lot of them are just like, you know, they're kind of in conflict, right? But just be, just be exact, try to be exactly asleep as you are, and you wake up. Carrie? To get to the point where we can confess our faith Well, I said, first of all, hear the teaching, I guess. And then I think a big part of it is also to discuss what you just brought up.

[05:31]

I mean, what do we need to have confidence that we can and should confess our lack of confidence or our lack of confidence to relax? So that's a very important part of it, is what do you need or what does anybody else here need to feel, I hesitate to say safe, it's not exactly safe, but confidence in that process of confession. Part of it is we need some experience. of watching maybe somebody else confess and seeing that they didn't seem to be bad for them, or maybe start with a few kind of like tentative, relatively easier confessions. In some sense you just did give an example of a kind of confession, because by asking how can you get to the place you know, you're expressing that somebody might need some support to be able to confess.

[06:38]

Now, you could have been doing on behalf of other people that you sensed, or you could have been doing on your behalf. But that was a good example of saying, what do we need to be able to do this? What will build trust that confessing is, again, I hesitate to say safe, but that it is liberating. It's not totally safe because, in fact, if you tell people certain things about yourself, then their impression of you does change. Whenever you tell people, that's part of the thing, is that whenever I tell you something about myself, you feel differently. The thing about the humidity, didn't you change a little bit what you thought of me? Did you notice a little change when I gave you that information? You didn't notice much. What do you mean it ain't bad yet?

[07:45]

Yes, but didn't your understanding of me change a little bit when you heard that even this little bit of humidity affected me? Didn't that give you some information about me? Well, not so much. I didn't say I didn't like it so much. It was more like I was uncomfortable and I was kind of restless with it. So when I told you that about me, didn't your understanding of me change a little bit? Yeah, I also told you that. So anyway, I'm just saying that... If someone's sitting over there, you think something about them, you know, like you think, oh, she seems relaxed or she seems tense. But when she tells me that she's relaxed or when she tells me she's tense, I feel different. My information about her has changed. When you confess something to someone, when you disclose something to someone, it does change them. They change and they change the way they see you changes a little bit.

[08:51]

Like, I don't know what, again, if a spiritual teacher comes to visit and they tell you that they just, you know, they were in a traffic jam and they yell out the window profanities at somebody because they, you might say, oh, that's a different idea I had about what this person was. So, in fact, if you tell people certain things, their ideas about you, I think this person has a pretty good opinion of me. I think basically this person thinks I'm quite an excellent person. They respect me quite a bit. And if I would tell them these things, they might respect me less. And it's true, they might. But even though they might respect you less, in one way, they might feel closer to you in another. And they might feel that they could tell you something that they wouldn't be able to tell you before because they respected you so much. So then they tell you something, and then you think less of them. But then you notice that they weren't afraid of that, so then you tell them more, and then they think less of you.

[09:58]

And pretty soon you both... But you're like really communicating. And then you start to realize, although we're not so good, we have this great communication. And we're starting to really flow with each other. And we're not afraid and we're relaxed. And we're having a great time. Even though we're not holding each other up on pedestals anymore. You know, we've come down, we're lying on the ground now, but also we're relaxed. We're relaxed at our reduced status. We're comfortable, you know, we're comfortable not having this person think so much of us, and they're comfortable not thinking much of them. Or in some cases, you might already not think much of the person... But as you disclose more to them, and they disclose more to you, although you had a low opinion of them in the first place, and everything they tell you confirmed it, but you didn't know that they could tell you.

[11:02]

And you realize that although your opinion of them didn't come up anymore, you got down to their level, so now they look much higher. because you realize they're at the same level as you, and actually maybe a little higher than you, because they were better at telling *** than you were. Which is the reason why you kind of had a low opinion of them in the first place, because they weren't hiding their mistakes. And you realize, hey, all those years they weren't hiding their mistakes and I was, so I had this high status and they didn't, but they were better at samadhi all those years than I was. Because they weren't hiding their mistakes. So this is the point, is to get to the place where we start to play. We get into the realm of truth, the samadhi, so we get into the truth. And the truth is, you know, that we're actually working together. How are we going to open our eyes to that and enter that?

[12:04]

Buddha's wisdom is not something that is, you know, it's not waiting. Buddha's wisdom is already here. And the Buddha wants just us to open our eyes to it and enter it. Overcome our resistance to it. So confession is, we sort of make a really good case for confession as a key ingredient in entering the place where Buddhist wisdom is enacted. In addition to making a good case for it, we also like try to say, now what would help you, even though you hear it's a good thing, what would help you feel more at ease confessing? And recently someone said, Actually, someone said, I'm not into... Oh, she said, I'm not into play. We're talking about the same process.

[13:06]

She said, I'm not into playing. And I thought, that was quite playful to say that. And there was this element when she said it, it was kind of like, I'm not into play. And she said, and I said, there was some kind of thing. She said, yeah, it was kind of taunting, wasn't it? I think so, yeah. But if your confession is burdensome to others, you know, if they confess to you that it's kind of like a burden, the burdensomeness of it, I think, is a sign that, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, what do you call it, it's beginner's confession.

[14:09]

It's like you haven't, you haven't, you're not really, you're not really giving yourself to it yet. You're still kind of like tense about it. And none of us have done this yet. Like some people, not so much anymore, but some people used to come and tell me about their practice, and the things they told me were really wonderful. Or sometimes people would bring up very lofty teachings. They would come and talk to me about their teachings. And I would, even though the teaching was very lofty, I would feel pretty quickly or immediately really uncomfortable that they were bringing up this lofty teaching. Because basically I felt like, I guess, what they were trying to do is make me think that they were like really like very smart. So really they weren't coming in and saying, you know, I would like to do something to make you really think I'm hot stuff. If they would tell me that, I would say, oh, okay. But to do something to try to make me think that they're a great Zen student is very boring.

[15:16]

It's dishonest. It's not trying to do, it's trying to do something without, and also them not even knowing. Now if you really say, now I'm going to go in there and try to say something to really try to impress him, that's better than to like, just think, well I'm going to go in and talk about this great thing. Or not even great thing, I'm going to go and talk about this teaching. But people often tell me when they're waiting, They're sitting there thinking about, what kind of question should I ask? And I say, that one's not too good. How about this one? But there are a lot of thinking like, what would be approved and liked, rather than what would be really honest? Or what question would really help him? So anyway, this woman said, I'm not into playing, and then somebody else said, you know, what would help me relax, what would help me feel that I could relax would be to feel like everybody loved me.

[16:19]

If everybody in the room, I felt like everybody in the room loved me, I could relax. I thought, yeah, that makes sense. So if you don't feel that way, maybe you don't dare to relax. Now, sometimes you might feel like, everybody loves me, but I still don't feel because if I relax, I might do something and then they might stop loving me. But still, just the idea that in one sense, wanting everyone to love you, that's part of the picture, the wanting love. And then the other thing is, if you got it that you That's part of what makes you afraid to relax. But it doesn't mean that your relaxation will make them love you or not love you. That's what you're worried about. People's loving me and not loving me is not under my control.

[17:29]

But people think that it is. We think we can do things to get people to love us or not love us. Okay, so that's a human idea. Anybody heard about that one? It's a perfectly good human idea. And I'm not trying to cross it off the list. I'm just saying... Let go of it. Renounce it. That's a worldly affair. A worldly affair is to do things to get someone to love you. That's a worldly affair. Just let go of it. Doesn't mean you don't have that thought. What could I do to get these people to love me? I might have that thought, but just to relax with it. I personally have quite a bit of confidence. I confess not a lack of confidence, but confidence, goodness of letting go of the thoughts of trying to do things to get people to love me. And I have confidence in the pain that comes from trying to do things to get people to love me.

[18:35]

And it's partly by hearing so many people that suffer so much because they're spending so much time doing things to get people to love them. and worrying whether their behavior will get people to love them. And some people who are quite popular are in severe misery maintaining their popularity. They're really scared and they are popular and they feel popular. But they're very unhappy because they're addicted to this drug of popularity, and they're afraid that they're going to lose it. And if they would relax, they in fact might open up to some physical discomfort or mental discomfort, but they wouldn't have the one which is the discomfort of

[19:44]

like humidity or whatever, or that some people don't like you, or whatever. That sometimes happens, that people don't like you. And it's not comfortable. It's like, not so comfortable. But then you can relax with that. And that doesn't make it comfortable, exactly, but it just allows you to start playing with it. And if you can start playing with it and get someone else to play with it, you can enter into the creativity of it and be free of it. Not that you get rid of it, but you become free. And then again the question is, do you have confidence in the process? And if you don't, what would help you be confident? Any ideas of any other things that would help you be confident? Maybe if you practiced it every once in a while... Yeah.

[20:51]

Practice it. And then by experience you start saying, yeah, it worked. Still, I have this huge habit of not doing it, which is just roll... And also notice that that one doesn't work. This one doesn't... I shouldn't say it doesn't work. This works this way. In other words, it's very... I'm scared, I'm tense, I'm unhappy. And this one, when it happens, it works. Yeah, it works. Then you should check with the teaching or the teachers to see if you're doing it correctly. And sometimes, a lot of times, they'll maybe say, no, that isn't quite the way. Try it this way. And you try it that way. And sometimes, yeah, it works better that way. Pardon? I think one thing that Tim said is really important. about the practice of it, but it's not only the practice of it. When you are at a juncture like that, where you see that you're uncomfortable because of the humidity, if you realize that you have a choice to make yourself uncomfortable, or maybe not uncomfortable, but the choice of accepting the condition in a different way,

[22:10]

So it's almost a choice. Once you realize you have that choice, there's a little spark of enlightenment there. It makes you happy. If I suffer, I can change that or try to change it or move in the direction of changing it. I can practice. So making that choice or just recognizing that choice is something that comes out of the practice that many of us And using this example again, another thing that might help is, for example, it might help if you knew it would be okay to take off your clothes. But then people won't let you take off your clothes. Because then they won't let us use this retreat center anymore. And you say, well, how about, is it okay if I'm really sweaty and stinky? Is that okay?

[23:13]

And maybe most of us would say yes, but the people right next to you might say no. But at least if you asked, is it okay if I'm really sweaty? And the person might say, well, I really don't like you all that sweaty, but, you know, okay, it is okay. I just don't want to touch you. Okay. Like in Japan, it's not that hot actually in Japan if you walk around with almost no clothes in the summer. But part of the problem that I've had going to Japan in the summer is that a lot of the stuff that I do when I'm in Japan you're wearing lots of, you know, ritual clothing. You've got many layers of clothes on, because I go there and do these ritual practices where you wear one, two, three, four layers in the humidity.

[24:19]

So it But when you don't have your clothes on in Japan in the summer, it's not that uncomfortable. It's just keeping up certain appearances under certain circumstances make it more difficult. So how do we, like, let go of ... We say, well, just don't put on all those clothes. Well, how about if you had to put the clothes on? Well, then give up the appearance of being comfortable, or give up the appearance of being dry, or whatever. Just give up. In other words, relax. And then again, if I do, Can you ask if it's okay and can you get support from people? And if you can't, then I think you don't feel like you can. That's why in some sense we need to start in some sense with a special situation where we will be allowed to relax.

[25:23]

is maybe like a situation like this where we'll be allowed to relax so we can get a feeling for it and then extend it to other situations where people are not necessarily going to say, okay. But where we learn that it is okay under certain special circumstances so that you can have these thoughts that you mentioned at first under special circumstances and then you can extend it to others. Maybe you can keep these by your seat.

[26:42]

It made me land a place with a true man and one who knows the way. Leagues are numberless. I vow to save them. Missions are inexhaustible. I vow to mend them. I bow to them, because they is unsurpassable. I bow to them. Being a good guy or a bad gal is good, and being a bad guy or a bad gal is not good.

[28:08]

But for me, that's not the main point. Because even if you're a good guy, unless you understand what a good guy is, you're still basically in big trouble. And if you understand, if you're a bad guy and you understand what being a bad guy is, you're free of being a bad guy. You're not in trouble anymore. So me, the main point is not so much, of course I recommend if you're going to be any kind of a guy, be a good guy, but that's not the main point. The main point is to relax with being a good guy if you're a good guy. And if you're a bad guy, relax with being a bad guy. and you can relax with being a bad guy, which most guys are, right? Then you can play with being a bad guy, and you can be creative with being a bad guy, and then you can understand being a bad guy, and you can be free of being a bad guy, and you can also help the good guys be free too.

[29:20]

That's basically what I was saying this morning. And this is the virtue of samadhi, is that in samadhi, We can understand whatever kind of a guy we are, or whatever kind of a gal we are, and become free of it. That's the point. And share this freedom with those who we're interacting with. We're also learning to be creative with whatever they are. Okay, does that make sense? Any questions about that, or comments? Yes, June? Is it easier for you to be relaxed when you're a good guy? Well, what do you call it when somebody's a good guy and they're not relaxed?

[30:33]

What's that called? Righteous. Huh? Righteous. Self-righteous. Self-righteous. So a lot of people that are pretty good have trouble relaxing when they're good, too. That's one of the advantages of being bad is that although you may not be relaxed, at least you're not self-righteous. So anyway, I think some people have trouble relaxing when they're bad. Because you're guilty of being bad and you're awaiting your punishment, right? It's coming to you. It's hard to relax because you know you're going to get in trouble for this eventually. But I would suggest to you that we relax between our punishment for what we've done. I would suggest, why suffer between now and then? Relax, relax, have a good time until you go to hell. And also, by the way, if while you're relaxing, you start to understand the truth, but when hell may come, but it won't be a big problem for you because you'll be a Buddha.

[31:46]

And you say, oh hell, let's go. Let's see who's there. But it is hard. It's hard to relax. People have a hard time relaxing when they meet a good guy. They have a hard time relaxing when they're a bad guy. They have a hard time relaxing when they're kind of in the gray zone between the two. They have a hard time relaxing when they meet a good guy or meet a bad guy. People have a hard time relaxing. Right? Because people are innately ignorant. So since we're ignorant, we have a strong tendency to grasp based on our ignorance. Our ignorance is that we think that we exist independently, and that things are not creative events. Substantial events. Because of this innate ignorance, we grasp. And when we grasp, it's hard to relax when you're grasping. Right?

[32:49]

kind of antithetical. That's why I'm bringing it up, because we need to start encouraging this relaxation, which actually, if you're not ignorant, you see it's already happening. We actually already are relaxed. We just think relaxation would look different than this. We already are free, we just think we have some fixed idea about what freedom would be, so we don't realize it. But Buddhists are alive and free. But Buddha also sees we don't get it. We're free actually to be ignorant, even. Buddha nature has allowed itself to take the form of ignorance. A student asked his teacher, how can we have ignorance in all of our stuff? The teacher says, to thicken the plot. You want to discuss this chart a little bit?

[34:08]

This is a little chart that I made a while ago. Nobody seems to have refuted it much since I made it. Maybe it's faulty. Just like the story of being a bad guy and the story of being a good guy, just like those stories, there's another story. I'm attached to this story. Like, you know, if you have a story that you're a bad guy, the point is to relax with that so that story can evolve and become, start interacting with other people's stories about you. Like, you're not a bad guy. You don't even rate as a bad guy. Or you're really good, you know. The point is to, you've got stories, to put them out there for conversation pieces, right? All your stories are out there. So here's a story about the relationship between samadhis. So in the center, which I call samadhi number one, is the phenomenon of mental one-pointedness.

[35:22]

It's a phenomenon. And in Buddhist psychology, it's taught that all states of consciousness have this quality of samadhi. All day long, all night, every state of consciousness that you've ever experienced has this quality of samadhi. Your mind is always one-pointed with the object that it's aware of. Now, sometimes people think, well, the mind is put onto the object in a one-pointed way. But this is saying something slightly different. It's saying that mind and object are actually one point. You can never have the mind over here going over to the object. Mind always has this one-pointed quality. The mind is always... Down below the etymology, the translation of samadhi is often concentration, but the etymology of it is joining or putting together.

[36:30]

So the mind has this quality of joining, knower and knowing. It always has that quality. So at the center of all the other samadhis is this simple psychological fact. It's actually a philosophical fact too, but it's a psychological fact or psychological theory put forth by the Buddhists that might be like that. And the definition of samadhi is one-pointedness of mind and object. Now, although our minds are always like that, and other people's minds are always like that, a lot of people have no clue to this one-pointedness.

[37:34]

They don't feel it. They don't understand it. They don't have confidence in it. They feel actually kind of like mind and object are two. And that's our basic ignorant take on things, is that my awareness and what I'm aware of, my awareness and you who I'm aware of, are not one point. And that's our aim. That you exist, that the objects of my awareness exist out there on their own, separate from my awareness. This is saying that there's no separate existence of my awareness of you and you. The next circle, he might say, so the first samadhi is the samadhi of everybody. It's everybody's samadhi and every mind's samadhi. The second circle is about the samadhi of the yogis.

[38:37]

Maybe you've heard of dhyana or jhana. That's where the word zen comes from. The way the Chinese transliterated jhana. or Zenna, Chan. And then they took off the Na and just said Chan. So Chan actually gets its name from Jhana. And that's partly because people observing the practice of the early Zen, the early ancestors of our tradition, they did a lot of sitting meditation and so they thought they were practicing Jhana. Which maybe they were, but maybe they weren't. Jhana in particular means to be absorbed in this mental one-pointedness and to do exercises to kind of like immerse ourselves and be absorbed into the one-pointedness of thought.

[39:51]

So the basic exercise that I've been telling you is, basic jhana exercise would be, meet everything as could be. But the way they teach it, the way they taught it in the old days was more like, you know, give people objects, get them to focus on the objects and push other things away and just stay in the object. In the process of this, they would discover relaxation with the object. In some ways, I would say my feeling is that today people are more sophisticated. And maybe you can understand the basic message of samadhi, which is just don't get involved with objects. So if you watch a different way samadhi was taught, by the time, in the beginning of the Zen tradition, Bodhidharma taught

[40:54]

Don't get involved outwardly with objects. Just don't get involved. So I'm saying relax. Don't get involved is another way to say it. And don't get involved means don't turn away and don't grab. Don't ignore. To meet in an upright way whatever comes. Okay? But in early days they more like did this kind of like training wheels type of meditation where they give people something to look at and then they would gradually And then it would be the way they are with it that they would develop. The presence, the pure presence, that's what develops the samadhis. So that's the second circle. And there's ways of technically deepening these concentrations.

[42:02]

And the founder of the Buddhist tradition did those yogic techniques. And he was very good at them and went the full course to the highest states of concentration. And he also taught these things to his disciples, some of whom learned it and some of whom didn't. But he found that those concentrations in themselves, although they had a lot of merit, they didn't actually transform his understanding. He was still ignorant. lofty or these profound states of concentration. That's why I left in the circle still holding a view of self. Holding a view of self means still holding a view of the separation of mind and objects. So although you're in samadhi, which actually has, let me say, subdued or

[43:07]

attenuated or even suppressed the basic delusion of separation of mind and objects when you're in samadhi. You're accepting that one-pointedness and your attitudes of separation of self and others have been suppressed and therefore you're like, you're cool, you're relaxed, you're happy, you're unafflicted, you're not afflicted when you're in a second circle. you're free of affliction, but your basic mindset has not changed. So there are yogis who do not have Buddhist wisdom, who are very good at concentration, and Shakyamuni is a prime example. The second circle is from beginning to end is a happy situation for people, it's very pleasant, but it's temporary.

[44:12]

As soon as you stop doing exercises, the afflictions will rise again because of your ignorance. It's the circle of, I don't know what we call it, it's the circle of those who have realized the selflessness of persons. And this realization leads to a kind of nirvana. Some people aspire to not just be yogis, but to attain nirvana. That's their goal, to become free of suffering in a sustainable way, to become free of psychic existence, birth and death. Anyway, to obtain freedom.

[45:13]

So those who have the... to attain nirvana, this samadhi number three is sufficient. So when you realize the selflessness of your personhood, you can attain nirvana. In that understanding, it's not just that you've entered a trance or a state of concentration where you're no longer entertaining the difference between self and other or mind and object, but you actually have changed your basic attitude. You actually have changed your... Your conception of yourself has changed. And this would liberate the meditator.

[46:13]

So it's individual liberation. And it's also liberation, or psychological liberation. Psychologically you would experience your liberation. You would feel liberated. but you might be more liberated. Just you. But that was your goal in the first place, so you're cool. And then it says at the top, it's a super mundane samadhi. So the first two circles are mundane samadhis. Mundane means they're still in the world of birth and death. In the third circle you have super-mundane samadhis, but you have not yet realized nonduality fully.

[47:24]

You sort of realize the nonduality of self and other, which is great, but you haven't yet realized the nonduality of freedom and bondage. Which is why you're interested in freedom. You haven't yet realized the non-duality of nirvana and samsara. But who cares? You're in nirvana. You haven't realized the non-duality of enlightenment and delusion of Buddhist and sentient beings. But still, it's an amazing feat, an amazing accomplishment to actually realize samadhi number three. In samadhi number three, we realize not just the non-separation of self and other, but also of mind and objects.

[48:31]

We understand it, not just enter into a state where we cultivate that feeling, but we actually understand it. We understand the non-separation of Buddhas and sentient beings, nirvana and samsara, enlightenment and delusion. And this liberation is not a psychological liberation. Is that a train? You don't like that train? It's so loud. With logic for that. So, she lives at Green Gulch, you know. So the realization in the fourth circle is inconceivable. I mean, you may have some kind of idea, oh, I think I just got enlightened, or I think we just got enlightened.

[49:38]

Did we just get enlightened? Was that it when she closed the window? Did you feel that? Or actually, it was just before she closed the window, and she had enough of that, so she closed the window, and then it went away. Did you notice? Anyway, the fourth circle is really, the fourth samadhi is like not really... It's not really, it has not much to do with our sense of being free or not free, although all of our senses are totally included. It's more about the way, it's more about realizing the way we actually are. And this realization, even though you may not know anything about it, empowers you, the samadhi empowers you and others to work most optimally for the welfare of beings, because you've actually tuned in to the ultimate truth. There's plenty of truth prior to that, but there's a bit of hindrance in the activity because of incomplete realization.

[50:49]

So those who wish to obtain personal liberation go for the third circle. Those who wish to work for the welfare of beings work to realize the fourth circle, the fourth type of samadhis, which are the bodhisattva samadhis or the buddha samadhis. I thought you knew somebody. In the third circle you know you love people. In the fourth circle you do love people, but you may not know it. And you love people in the most unhindered way in the fourth circle, but you may not know it. And some people have to stop and think now, would I rather have unhindered love or know that I have unhindered love? Would you rather be a bodhisattva and not know it or almost a bodhisattva and know it?

[52:02]

Some people would choose almost, you know, almost being a bodhisattva and knowing it because... Huh? I didn't say most. Did I say most? Some. Some people would choose that because it's really nice to know that you're... It's really great that you're really helpful. It's really wonderful to feel helpful, right? And to actually, like, know it. And you're right. At the psychological level, you can know that you're doing something that's helpful to you and other people. And you can know that you're no longer afraid of people and stuff like that. You can know that. But the actual working of the Buddha's mind, even the Buddhas don't really know, they just are it. Now they may, again, they may have ideas about, but like, as you'll read in a minute, even if all the Buddhas gathered together, you know, all their wisdom, if one person's zazen, they wouldn't be able to fully comprehend it. And one person's zazen, in this case, means the zazen of samadhi number four, of the samadhis of the Buddha.

[53:14]

You cannot, the mind cannot measure the actual working of total unhindered enlightenment, which is, you know, not that interesting that we can't measure it. It's more interesting to measure it, even though we can't. So even measuring lesser enlightenment would be quite interesting, which we can do. We can measure some of the lesser ones, which is very interesting and very wonderful. So that's part of the leap of becoming a Buddha, is choosing to be a Buddha rather than choosing to be somebody who knows that they're a Buddha, or knows that they're a saint. So there's a distinction between a true saint and being a Buddha. And Buddhas are not something other than the non-saints. Whereas most, a lot of saints are not, not saints.

[54:17]

They're saints. They're stuck in the same thing. They're saints. Buddha's not a saint. Buddha is all sentient beings in the process of enlightenment. It's a different kind of a thing. Yes. I guess it's a question I've got to consider, which is, this is like a road map to the end of all suffering. How do you avoid attaching to that? How do you avoid attaching to it? Well, first of all, do not try to avoid attaching to it. Attaching to it would be a mistake. Okay? You do not need to avoid attaching to it. How do you avoid attaching to it?

[55:23]

You do not need to avoid attaching to it, and attaching to it would be a mistake. You do not need to avoid making mistakes in this path. In the Buddhist path you do not need to avoid And since you don't need to, you don't need to. Now, if you want to know how to, maybe you can find somebody who can tell you how not to, but I think you're going to be practicing in a very small group then. The good guys group. Those who do not, we don't even, we don't attach to this path, this great path. No, you probably will attach to it. You're attached to some things now, and you hear about something better than what you're already attached to, you're attached to that. Not necessarily when you think you'll attach, but you'll attach. That'll be a mistake.

[56:25]

So the practice includes that you're going to make mistakes. But if you confess and reveal and disclose your mistakes, that process melts away the fear of attaching to this path. It's not by avoiding it. Avoiding it would be like super delusion. Like, not only am I practicing Buddhism, but I don't even make mistakes. I've managed to avoid mistakes. I don't even attach to it. Wow. It's better probably to like, at least occasionally... notice it. But if you can't notice, then what you do, you need a teacher who will point out to you that you are attached. Anyway, if you're trying to avoid making mistakes, right? Does that make sense? What if you say, hey, I'm not even trying to avoid attaching.

[57:27]

I just happen to wonder how one could avoid it. I wasn't like, I wasn't like into that. It's just a little thought that crossed my mind. And I would say, well, fine. And I'll forget it. And if you say, OK, then we're over that one. You say, no, I really do want to know the answer. Well, I say, wait a second. How come you're so interested? But if you really don't care about your question, then I just say, you don't have to avoid attachment. Yes. Say it again. Well, maybe... Yeah. Well, it's... Basically, it's... It's grasping and seeking.

[58:35]

So pushing away is like seeking. You're seeking something other than this. So maybe grasping and seeking, and you can see avoiding is a form of seeking. Grasping and seeking, grasping. So we need to be able to spot our own grasping and seeking. So grasping is debt. So birth and death is grasping and seeking, grasping and seeking. And then not grasping and not seeking is no birth, no death. But we have to confess, I'm into grasping and seeking and be able to catch ourselves at it. And if we can't catch ourselves at it, then we need to... Or, you know, just songamates who we can report this to. I've managed to become free of grasping and seeking. And actually that's another part of that story where I mentioned Bodhidharma taught, do not get involved in objects outwardly or inwardly.

[59:39]

It means don't grasp and don't seek. Don't grasp or avoid. So then his student, after seven years, his student comes back and says, okay, I'm cool. No more grasping and seeking. I'm not involved with objects. And then Bodhidharma says, I think he said, it's a little debatable how to translate this, but he said something like, well, you haven't fallen into cessation, have you? Like nirvana or death. But another understanding that you haven't fallen into nihilism, have you? So one trap that you can get into. is nihilism as a way to not grasp a seed. So he says, either he says, you haven't fallen into cessation, have you, or nihilism, and then the disciple says, no, I haven't, and Bodhidharma says, prove it. And then he says, I'm always clearly aware, but words can't reach it.

[60:39]

So the teacher tested him to see if he was involved in some idea of what non-involvement was, or actually if it was true, not grasping and not seeking. So that was his answer. I'm aware. Words can get it. I'm aware, but I can't get a hold of it. So it's not like there's nothing there. I'm present. There's somebody here, but I can't get a hold of who this is. So it is hard. It took him seven years to get to that balance point after that instruction.

[61:20]

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