Morning. A few weeks ago, some members of the Santa Cruz Zindo came to visit us and in order to see how we do things here. And they were in the community room talking with us and in the community room we have a chart. It's a big plywood chart that has all of the positions on it. I don't know if you've ever seen it or not. but it's there. I made this chart several years ago, quite a long time ago, and it has little stickers on it, and for every position at the Zendo, it's just kind of like a tree, you know, that shows the positions, and everything from the abbot to the officers

[01:26]

Gardner and every small position is there and it has somebody's name on it. So one of the members looked at it and he said, I don't think we want anything that hierarchical. I thought about that and I realized, I said to him, this is not a hierarchical chart. This is a chart that shows the interdependence of how the practice works, or how the practice works in an interdependent way. And it shows how everyone has a position and how this position adds something to the practice. There is a hierarchical aspect as well. There are some people these days who feel that there should not be any hierarchy, that everyone should be equal.

[02:40]

But no matter how much you try to equalize, out of that equalization will come hierarchy. Because hierarchy is not something that is imposed. Hierarchy is something that's natural. Hierarchy means that every entity has a certain position in this world in relation to everything else. That's hierarchy. In plant biology, which I know nothing about, The parts of a plant are named according to their hierarchy in the structure of the plant. And it's not a matter of egos, it's just a matter of where things belong in relation to each other. So this is hierarchy. But at the same time, everything's equal.

[03:47]

Everybody's equal. Totally equal. But if you try to chop off part of somebody's head in order to make them fit with the size of somebody else, that's not equality. Equality is difference. And difference is equality. To recognize everyone's difference is to recognize their equality. So no two people stand in the same place, and yet we're all standing in the same place. So for each position,

[04:55]

The abbot has a position. The director has a position. The tenzo has a position. The gardener has a position. The dishwasher has a position. All these positions are equal. They're all equal in that within anything you do, within any position that you have, whether it's if you're pulling weeds, the whole practice is there within pulling weeds. The whole practice is there within washing dishes. There's no need to go any further. The practice is not progressive. It's not like if you do this, you'll finally get to do that, and then... That does exist. But The progressive practice, the progress is not the point.

[05:59]

The point is that within each place, within each activity and position, the whole of enlightenment is there. So you don't work your way up from delusion to enlightenment through positions. It's not like that the abbot is enlightened and the dishwasher is unenlightened. It doesn't work that way. You know, the sixth ancestor chose, or the fifth ancestor chose the sixth ancestor to be his successor who was pounding rice in the kitchen. Because the young Hui Nung who was pounding rice in the kitchen new understood realization through pounding rice.

[07:02]

So in our practice there has to be some tangible activity that we can practice with in order to bring forth the mind of realization and it really doesn't matter what it is because it doesn't come from outside or what we do or what what we do, but how we do what we do. So when this gentleman looked at the chart, he saw hierarchy.

[08:27]

And when I looked at the chart, I saw interdependence, which includes hierarchy. And the way our practice turns is on a shared offering from each person. It's not like There's somebody at the top telling us how to do our practice. But each one of us has to contribute to making the practice work. And that's how it's always worked. And it's always worked on a volunteer basis. People say, how come you don't tell me what to do? A lot of people say that to me. You're so soft, you don't tell us what to do.

[09:31]

And it's true, you know, I don't come up and say, I want all of you people to do this and that. But I, we have a way of practice and it's, the stimulus for practice should come from your own willingness to want to participate. So I like to stimulate your willingness to practice, but I don't like to go around saying, I think you should do this. Because every one of us has a busy life. In a monastic practice, where everyone has a shared life, then you can ask people to do things.

[10:34]

But each one of us has a life of our own, which includes families and work and study and whatever. So you have to decide what your level of participation is. You have to decide how much time and energy you can devote to making this practice work. But I need to let you know that it only works through your participation. So we come here on a Saturday morning and everything is very orderly. And if we want to, we can have breakfast. That's all done, you know. And somehow the zendo gets opened at the right time.

[11:40]

And somebody's taking care of the timing and the bells and making the service work. And somehow it's all working real well. Week after week after week after week, year after year, it's all working well. But somebody is making that work that way. So I think we need to think about, well, how does that happen? Everything is working so smoothly and consistently. It's because the Saga members volunteer to make it work that way. So this is a high-class pitch for letting you know that it's very important within our practice to find some way to participate in making this practice work for everybody, not just for ourself.

[12:57]

Many people It's enough just to be able to get the zazen a few times a week. That's fine. So that's why I say I don't demand something from you because you know what your limitations are. Everyone has limitations. But I do want to stress that there are many things to do and can be done here that if you ask, what could I do, that something can be found for you to do that will really contribute to your own practice and contribute to everyone else's practice. So it doesn't matter how big the contribution is.

[14:01]

Taking care of the altar is a really wonderful kind of practice, Jeff. The whole practice is right there in taking care of the altar. It's rather simple. It's not complex. It's a simple thing. It takes a certain kind of attention and mindfulness and involvement for just a little bit of time. But when you can do it well, that same quality can permeate your life. So each one of these positions that we have at the zendo is a practice.

[15:09]

It's not just a job, but it's a practice. It's a way of practicing. Zazen is one aspect of practice and doing some kind of work or some kind of taking care of something working in the garden, taking care of the altar, cleaning the zendo. These are all ways of practice that broaden our understanding. When we go to work at a job, the reward is that we get paid. So it's not always necessary to think about what are the qualities of our work as payment. But we have a different kind of reward.

[16:11]

But when we work at the zendo, do some position at the zendo, the payment is in the activity. And when we understand that the payment is in the activity, then we can carry that into our everyday life. And instead of just thinking about, I'm doing this for the money, I'm doing this because I'm doing this. I'm doing this because this is what I'm doing. And the quality of our life, the quality of our activity, takes on a different tone. The way we practice in the monastery is to keep changing positions every year or every six months or periodically so that you experience the practice from a different position.

[17:22]

You keep experiencing how you relate to everyone and how you relate to the practice from a different position. When you're a cook, you relate to everyone as the cook. And that's very different than relating to everyone as the work leader, or as general labor, or as a gardener. So each position you have allows you to relate to everyone from that position. And when you are totally at one with that position, no matter what it is, then you are turning the whole practice. So everyone, actually, from their position, is turning the whole practice. Everyone is the boss. Totally equal.

[18:23]

The dishwasher is equal with the abbot. because the abbot turns the practice from the abbot's position and the dishwasher turns the practice from the dishwasher's position. And one is totally satisfied. There's nothing else to gain. And then when you change position, okay. Instead of being dishwasher, will you be the cook? Okay. Problem. And then suddenly, you relate to everything from the position of being the cook. And so you continually letting go and taking on, letting go and taking on, letting go and taking on. So, how do you fulfill your life moment by moment?

[19:41]

That's the point. How do you bring life to life, moment after moment? Not just for yourself, but for everyone around you. How do we make our society work? If everyone is just working for themselves, society does not work. If we're just coming to do the practice for our own benefit, the practice doesn't work. So, as Master Dogen says, to turn and be turned. Practice is being turned, turning and being turned. Being turned by the practice is to just follow, you know, just to follow along.

[20:53]

And to turn the practice is to take initiative. So when we first come to practice, we usually, we're just following along. But at some point, we realize that the practice is not just for ourself. And we start to turn, we start to make the practice work, to actually take initiative. So turning and being turned, turning and being turned. Maturity is to take initiative and turn the practice. At the same time, let the practice turn you to drive the wave and to ride the wave. It's like striving and being carried along.

[22:10]

And these are two aspects of our life. One is kind of informal and letting life take us. And the other is more formal by making things work and putting out energy. So one side of our practice is very formal and very energetic and very precise. And the other side is more relaxed and going along with things and letting go. And how we integrate these two sides is what we're always dealing with. If we're only too formal, if we're only formal, and we're only energetic, and we're only precise, then it's easy to become very uptight and intolerant.

[23:29]

So after that, I will think about doing that. If I add more dokusan, then I would want it to be shorter. See, one of the problems is that there's a lot to say, you know, because I don't see people so often. And so it's nice to, you know, have longer dokusan to just to catch up on things. But during sashin, you know, I started limiting dokusan to 10 minutes. And now I'm limiting it to five minutes because it's really good that way. Because we just get to the essence of something. Many teachers will not talk to students about their lives. They just want to talk about I just want to get down to the essence of the question.

[33:01]

Five, ten minutes. But I've always had longer doksans. So if we do have more doksan, I would like to limit it to shorter doksan. Otherwise, I'm totally spending my time in long conversations with people, which is not really dope, son. So, I would consider that. David? As you said, the Buddha's teaching is the exact opposite of everyone in it for themselves. Can you say something about living in a society which seems to be contrary to the teachings of the Buddha? Yeah. Well, I think we have a Sangha that's based on interdependence.

[34:05]

The Sangha is a society within the society. And even though the society is bent on promoting the ego and individual prosperity. We have to find like-minded people who are more interested in an interdependent society, which is not a communist society, but a society of interdependence, which recognizes interdependence and lack of self-centeredness. So by participating in this society, we can influence the bigger society.

[35:07]

I really feel that The Zen practice in America, although it's had its ups and downs, basically when it's working well, it's a big influence on the society. So, San Francisco Zen Center is very well known all around the world. And even though there have been many mistakes made, there's a big influence. exerts a big influence on the world. So, not that things have changed a lot, but that influence is there. And so, through our practice, we can influence society. That's my feeling. Speaking of turning to practice, I was wondering what about you could really make it into a circle.

[36:23]

Well, yeah, it is a circle. You could do that. You know, it's like... It's that way anyway. But that's true. You could make it into a circle. It would be an awfully big circle. But even horizontal, you would see the interdependence as well without the hierarchical We could do that. I actually had a very similar thought, but I wondered if we could do it all the way upside down. It doesn't matter which way it goes, frankly. Sure, turn it upside down. It's the thought, I had a similar question that was asked earlier about how to how to bring what I experience here in the Sangha into my outer life.

[37:31]

And here I experience a sense of interdependence within the hierarchy, that I don't think I've ever experienced it this directly before, past thinking, just experiencing it. And I don't experience that outside of here, in a workplace or the way that I see our society coming to my mind over and over again is, what if we turned everything upside down? Because when I work in the jobs that I work in, I think about how often the person at the top, that we, all of us underneath them, should be the other way around.

[38:57]

People often think that it depends on systems. If you just have the right system, everything will work. But it doesn't depend on systems. It depends on people. It depends on the individual. It depends on everyone's attitude. You can have a despotic system and still make it work for everybody. Doesn't matter. You could even have a dictator that is benevolent and so everybody benefits. The system is not the problem. The problem is the individual person, each individual person. So some systems do work better than others. That's true. But we keep blaming it on the system. And it's really the people. Because people have to be educated to be benevolent or to be interdependent or whatever.

[40:06]

And then any system will work. It doesn't matter what system it is. But if people have the right attitude, then things work. It doesn't really matter. What about it? Constantly moving. Constantly moving. Everything is moving interdependently. Yes? I wanted to ask you, in the afternoon, is there soji now? Because I think that's a wonderful way to introduce people to the interdependence and it's totally non-hierarchical. And so that's my first question. Well, the answer to your first question is that I proposed that. Yes. And then I got a lot of reaction.

[41:08]

I proposed that in the morning, after Zazen, the morning Sangha, for 10 minutes, sweeps the grounds. That's why when you come in here in the afternoon, they're usually pretty clean. So I proposed that the afternoon sangha have a soji. And some people thought that was a good idea, but a lot of people objected and said, no, that's our social time. The only social time we have is after zazen. And if we sleep, then we won't have the social time. So nothing ever happened. Nothing happens. Well, I wonder if it might be a good idea to bring that up again for the people in the afternoon. And I have some vested interest in this course as a co-head GPO.

[42:11]

I think it's really important that people who come here learn to, what, to perhaps experiment with dropping 10 minutes of self-cleaning and be generous to the community. Good idea. I know I thought it was a good idea myself. I think it's really important because I think it's a unique feature of the practice that I guess I've experienced more deeply the longer I have been here. And I have seen it translate into other arenas in my life. It's quite interesting. Yeah. Well, see, that's right. The morning sangha usually takes care of things. And the afternoon sangha just comes to zazen and leaves. That's it. So I totally agree with you. It'd be nice for the afternoon sangha to take a few minutes.

[43:13]

Not if you have to leave, you have to leave just like in the morning, but to take care of things a little bit before you leave. I would say in the morning, some people do leave because they have to go to work or do family stuff. And some people talk because they have to meet and convene about something that's usually done out of earshot while other people sleep. And the brooms are underneath the steps over there. And I think it's probably OK for people if they feel compelled to want to offer themselves up for five minutes after zazen in the afternoon, just to take a broom. They're not locked up. I'm sure it'll be a weird feeling when I'm cleaning, but that happens, I think, in the morning, too, when people are talking or having to go off to work or whatever.

[44:16]

Well, another aspect, though, besides just the sweeping, is to straighten up the zendo. We also straighten up the zendo, you know, straighten up the cushions and put everything in order in the morning. So that would be another aspect of it. Well, I guess to me it's a kind of mindfulness. And even if it's just 10 minutes, that is very powerful. So I would encourage people to experiment with it. Thank you for your talk. Well, two things that are quite related. One is why this works. apart from any particular system, hierarchy, non-hierarchy. And I think what's distinct from the rest of our society, particularly this society, is that it has to do with scale. That on this scale, we can know each other as an individual.

[45:22]

We see each other as individuals. And we know that something we do directly will have an impact on what everyone does and what each person does. And that's something that's very difficult and that we really need to work on transforming within our society because we're split off. And we're, you know, all the forces of the society are organized to split us off. So what we're trying to do is not split us off, but to integrate. And that speaks to this question about surging in the afternoon. In a sense, I'm of two minds about it. That I think it would be wonderful if people did just what Ross said. If people wanted to sweep, they saw their place in taking care of the song and just swept. And that that would be encouraged. I also think that part of our being able to recognize each other also means spending some time

[46:29]

talking to each other, laughing, getting to know each other, and that that's an important aspect of sangha life, in seeing ourselves as not just to do both. Yeah. Often when I come in the afternoon, people are waiting for the door to be open. Maybe we could do soaching in the afternoon before softening. People could chat afterwards. Yes. Yes, I really appreciate having this discussion.

[47:38]

I think it's been kind of long overdue, actually. It's very possible to combine work with visiting. And we ask on Saturdays that we maintain silence until after lecture. But then after lecture, there are usually the same group of people help clean up the Zendo, and the same group of people help with the teacups. But if everybody could jump in and do those things, you're free to talk as much as you want, as loud as you want, joke, laugh. And the same with afternoon zazen. We need to do Soji in silence. And particularly in cleaning Zendo, it's very easy to talk to each other. I think some of the best conversations happen there and then. I work in a hierarchical social service department in the county.

[48:59]

And recently, the hires up changed a number of jobs on the nursing unit where I work. And I was given more tasks. And basically, most people feel like I have more tasks anyway. And then I was given additional tasks. And I think a lot because of my practice and also what I've seen over the years now in the county is that things change and then they change back and nothing ever really changes. So I just didn't think about it much. I didn't contest it. I didn't argue about it. I just started doing it. And somehow, it really didn't seem like there was any more work that I was doing. And then yesterday, my... came up to me and said, you know, I want you to know that I've really noticed how well you're doing and how little you're complaining.

[50:04]

And the person that you took the job tasks from, who wasn't doing very much in the first place and is doing even less now and is being unpleasant about it, I just want you to know that we see that. And even that, it's like, well, that was the way they saw it. But I really have to say that inside, it was just, I think I've gotten so used to that you just do what's in front of you. So it's a way of being in a system, but within your own context that you bring from me, that I bring from my practice and from my life, so that nothing's different. this thing that was going on in the hierarchy. I think it's a really good point to just do your practice within whatever the situation is and then let things happen. Thank you.

[51:01]

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