There's a Sanskrit Buddhist term Pravatarte which means mutual turning around. And sometimes it's understood as three consciousnesses mutual turning around. And you were a perfect example of that. You and the mother and the baby doing a mutual turning around. So did you want to bring up some of the questions this brought up for you? So So one question would be how this body-mind

[01:06]

States, I only can use the term state. So how can they communicate and how can they communicate in a way that they cooperate? That's the question for me which came up. Yes. Which I would like to raise. It's good. It's called moistening the seeds. And it's the same question as Sophia had. My body knows how to see. But I don't know how my body... knows how to see.

[02:27]

So the important thing is that it happens. To try to understand it is Mostly an interference. But I think now that if you become famous as a baby turner and pretty soon anybody in Austria who looks up baby turning in Google, they come to me. And that you become so well known as a baby turner and that you're doing it for several years you would probably come to understand the conditions under which conditions under which baby turning happened.

[03:41]

And through the conditions that you come to understand, through the conditions you come to know, that allow baby turning to happen. Those conditions then might become a kind of, or lead to an understanding. Okay. May I ask an additional question? I'm not preventing you. So one question which also was there and which was there quite strongly and I was not sure whether I should raise it or not is to which extent should I interfere or to which extent should I...

[05:00]

allow that the state of affairs is as it is, so not to interfere, to let things happen as they are, stay as they are. Because also this opportunity, this possibility to act was also available. Well, this is the subtlety of any real craft. You can't say. You really have to do it by feel. And the same is true in zazen. When do you interfere and when do you not interfere? What state of mind allows you to interfere without interfering? I've told you the anecdote before which is still somewhat of a mystery to me that when I first vividly experienced this I was given a stack of

[06:16]

mimeographed booklets stapled together. What's the word mimeograph in German? I don't know what kind of printing that actually is. But if you explain, maybe I will find it. No, maybe a graph. That's all there was when I was younger. You type on a kind of piece of blue thing, and then you print. We call it spirit. It's called spiritus undruck verfahren, which means spiritus is this alcohol, because you have this smell. They used to smell blue, you know. Yes, so they have called it spiritus undruck verfahren.

[07:40]

He's old enough to know. Maybe the word spiritus as part of it explains what happened. But I had about a whole stack, you know. I was working in a book warehouse. And I don't know exactly why but the publisher sent over the stack and they said some have 65 pages, some have 66, some have 67, some have 68 pages. And I as the clerk was supposed to sort them. But anyway, and the different pages were certain pages with sort of graphs on them. So I put my hand on the

[08:44]

One on the top of the pile. And I flipped the pages and counted the number of graphs. And then I put it in one of the four piles. And really, very quickly, maybe after doing only four or five, I had the feeling as soon as I put my hand on the top, I knew how many pages. And I thought, can this be true? But I thought, well, I feel it, so we'll see. So I put my hand on it, and I lifted the... edge with my thumb.

[10:06]

But I didn't flip the pages. So maybe I was gauging the weight with my thumb, I don't know. I was very practical-minded at that time. I should have tried it without lifting it with my thumb. But if I didn't think about it and I just did it physically, I was right every time. As soon as I thought about it, could it be 65? I had no idea what it was. So I learned very quickly that there's this other body which knows things even if you don't press the arm down.

[11:16]

And that I couldn't thinking, consciousness interfered with the knowing. So I learned from that that knowing is going on and only part of it surfaces in consciousness. And that there's a kind of knowing which doesn't belong in consciousness or consciousness needs to be changed in order to be And this experience was so clear that it informed my practice from then on. But I didn't I didn't start practicing until several years later.

[12:30]

But when Sukershi talked about the It's my term, uncorrected mind, but when he said the equivalent of uncorrected mind, I understood the sense of it right away. Okay, someone else. Yes, Christian. I want to come back to the idea you said that sitting supports a particular kind of mind compared to walking. Yes. You interested in it. Yes, okay. I would like to come back to a specific, a particular... Yes?

[13:33]

Just the difference between a particular mind that surfaces in sitting compared to walking You said that there is certainly a kind of decision-making that goes on. But this decision-making is, of course, not limited to a body posture of sitting down. Because when we talk about mind and body and how they are related but also separate, it's fairly easy to understand how a certain body posture supports a particular kind of mind.

[14:40]

But it's harder to understand and practice how that mind is separate also from the body and can't inform body postures and inform the mind. It's just a practical way of living, going about ordinary things in life. It's hard to understand in practice how this mind surfaces and seems. They need to be present in ordinary life circumstances and become available. So I think that on a practical level that's just something to practice, but as we're talking about conceptually how body and mind are interrelated, they are related in the sense that a certain body posture supports a particular mind.

[16:24]

But they also have to be separate. What does that mean, they have to be separate? Well, They have to, if they're also available in other postures, that mind also has to be separate from the posture. From the body? From the body. Somehow. Okay. I understand your question. Does anybody, I mean, is this too much of a personal dialogue between Christian and I, or is it understandable to you? Interesting. Okay. But you're interested in everything. That's a good question. First of all, it is the case. Okay, so how do we conceptualize the case?

[17:47]

Okay. And is there any use to conceptualize the case? I think there is. Because if you can conceptualize the case, then you can develop practices that enhance the likelihood. Okay. Now one conception some people have that everything is a form of mind. The trees, all of us, etc. And like in this, let's just imagine it as a liquid. And in this big piece of paper we're imagining as a liquid.

[19:06]

You can draw an outline of a person. And that outline takes a certain chunk of the water out of the picture. And you can draw a reclining person and then get your philosophical scissors and cut out that shape. And then you have two shapes that don't fit. Now, if If you think everything is mine, then you can imagine that somehow these shapes can be rearranged because it's all the same liquid.

[20:21]

Buddhism doesn't exactly say this is mine. And Buddhism sometimes moves toward this way of looking at it. But Buddhism definitely doesn't think that's the most fruitful conception. mind is not there. But in each situation is generated to a certain, to various degrees. I'm just making this up as I go along.

[21:32]

Be patient. Okay, so the Buddhism would more say this particular shape generates a certain kind of And this other shape generates another kind of mind. Just like if I look at a tree, as tree, it actually generates a particular kind of mind, which includes the tree. That's a very basic idea in Buddhism that the tree is included in the consciousness which the object An object which generates a consciousness is part of the consciousness. Or we can at least think of it as an indispensable participant in the consciousness.

[22:34]

Okay, now I don't know right now if I can satisfy myself with some kind of And I don't know if I can satisfy myself with any kind of description. Or if that will cost me the rest of the seminar. But let me say something at this point. I'm being rather philosophical now, not practical, and I could look at it more practically. I think the simplest thing for me to say right now, which I actually don't quite agree with, but I will say, is that there's a relationship between the contents or the mental activity and the field of mind.

[24:13]

And that field of mind has the potential of both of these shapes. But not the full potential. So the potential of this shape has some of the potential of that shape. So you can generate, I mean, I can be driving a car. I'm not able to go to Zazen for some reason because I'm driving across the United States or something and I had to leave and read on. So I missed Zazen.

[25:15]

I'm sorry, I missed Zazen. I'm sorry. I don't know who I'm apologizing to, but anyway. So I missed Zazen. So I say, okay, everything I need from Zazen I'm going to have now while I'm driving. And I find if I create that mental formation, if I maintain that feeling that everything I need from Zazen I'm going to get, from just feeling that while I drive, it somehow calls forth enough of the mind of Zazen that it's almost like I did Zazen, but not quite. So that's a practical example.

[26:25]

The more philosophical way, conceptual way of looking at it is harder for me to kind of think about and make it work. But it's also the case that the more often you... thoroughly familiar you are with zazen mind. So now we're working with the title of this, What are the Minds of Zazen? The more fully you have bodily familiarity with zazen mind. the more fully that bodily knowing of zazen mind can be present in any mind. Of course, the whole point of everything we're saying is knowing, discovering that there are different minds

[27:40]

and then articulating those makes it possible to bring them to know them simultaneously and have them function simultaneously. But we're not supposed to get to that point until Sunday afternoon about 2.30pm. Aber es ist nicht vorgesehen, dass wir zu diesem Punkt kommen bis Sonntagnachmittag 14.30 Uhr. So forget I said. So vergesst also einfach, was ich gesagt habe. You don't want to know the end of the story. But also it's quite likely I won't get there by Sunday afternoon. Is that enough of a comment? Anyone else? You mentioned this morning and this feeling of the forest passes on to the people and you said that you have a special perception of other people and would like to know or have described in more detail how this perception is with the last picture of the Buddhist and I see in this person the Buddha who he becomes.

[29:27]

I'm referring to what you said this afternoon when you talked about the forest and the feeling of the forest and the feeling of the forest is conveyed to you and the last image you gave about the tree or the forest and also the last image you gave about how you see a person and I would like to know how you are connected to this Buddhist saying that you relate to a person as if I would see the Buddha in this person. Is this correct? Yes, two steps. The first step would be the way you perceive a person. We talked about energy flow and I think it's a very interesting question. There's not a perception of other people.

[30:33]

And at the last point, what I know is, if I come into contact to a person, I see a becoming Buddha in this person. You see that? You feel that? That, of course, kills me. No, this is a Buddhist conception. Okay. We could fall here. So, yeah, that's it. How can we learn to get to this conception? But first we have to know how it is here. I want more than what I just said a few minutes ago. I would hope to in this seminar, or maybe the next seminar, würde ich gerne in diesem oder im nächsten Seminar, is that how you participate in the dance and play of appearance.

[31:44]

Wie kann man in diesem Spiel und in diesem Tanz der Erscheinung teilhaben? Und wie kannst du teilhaben darin? Yeah, okay, that's what I'd like to get to. And that would be, if we could get there now, one way of responding to what you said. Okay. But let's right now take the sense that you feel each person as a Buddha. Which is a practice within Buddhism, of course. But let's say it's a separate practice from feeling the person as a field of practice. of stillness and activity.

[32:56]

Now, these two practices paratactically lie next to each other. But paratactically means they're just side by side. And you can bring them together. But I would like at present to think of them as two separate practices. But I can say that when you do feel each situation, including each person, not as a who, or a hoot, no, that you wouldn't. That's a slang expression. I shouldn't have brought it in. It's all right. When you feel each person also as a who, but not primarily as a who.

[34:10]

But you feel them as a what. And let's say a whatness. And that whatness allows you to feel them as a... a field of activity and... What we would say is at that moment you're perceiving as a Buddha perceives. And if you, in other words, Buddha is defined within Buddhism. In a very particular way.

[35:13]

Like if you were a watchmaker or something like that, people within the watch industry would know, hey, that's a real watchmaker. But a non-watchmaker... doesn't know how to say who's a real watchmaker. So I'm not speaking about some generalization about Buddhas as some sort of, I don't know what, But the understanding within Buddhism is that if you perceive that way I just described and you keep perceiving that way the incubation of that way of perceiving transforms you into a Buddha.

[36:25]

Or brings you approaching what Buddhahood means. You know, what's happening here? This seminar is not supposed to start until tomorrow morning. This is only the pre-day where we're supposed to kind of talk about, you know, this and that. And we're getting in so deep, we'll never be able to dig ourselves out tomorrow. And we're getting in so deep, we'll never be able to dig ourselves out tomorrow. So, someone else. Yes, talk. So during the practice week in February I was very much occupied with trying to separate or to get some kind of distance or space between the ego or how I see myself as a person

[37:52]

So during this practice week it also was emphasized like in this morning to emphasize the attention towards spine. And this was great and I liked it a lot and it was fun to experiment with that. But what was great for me is that it made accessible or it was easier for me to approach this space or this area where my personality is.

[39:04]

Do you think we are as guys doing the... What was really a big step was to give up this identification with my personality, which also made it possible for me to see the vitality in other people and to see mind, and to perceive differently. And this was possible or made it easier for me because I could locate myself more or identify more with my spine. Yes, I always need the anchor and it is not so important that my anchor is in my personality, but I need the anchor and now the anchor is in my body, in my spine, but it allows me to perceive other things.

[40:39]

So what is important for me, I still need some kind of anchor, but this anchor no longer has to be in my personality, but in my body and in my spine. And this kind of anchorage in the body allows a different way of perceiving. True. But it only works when I have enough time and it's also amazing how quickly reactions of personality come back. It's a hoot. since I said that earlier that it's completely funny I mean because it's so true But the inroads you've made into this non-ecological territory and discovered your sense of being located more fully located than in your ego.

[42:03]

That's a very big shift. It's a big shift if you know it. And the fact that you keep forgetting it... going back into your usual way, is not so important. Because once you really know it, if you keep nourishing that knowing, eventually it becomes the primary way you function. I promise. But you have to help me keep the promise. Okay. Okay. Okay. So shall I say a little something to end?

[43:41]

Are we supposed to eat at six o'clock? Defending your friend. Yes. The dynamic duo. You know who that refers to, right? Batman and Robin. Yes, see, you're half American. Okay. Oh. No, we don't want to ask that question. Dynamic duo is enough. Okay. Well, usually. Look at his bad ears, can't you see? I have an opportunity since, because of what we have an opportunity, because of

[44:53]

our prior discussion, for me to present a rather basic but complex teaching. And I already sort of implied it, but I'll try to make it more clear. Okay, so let's go back to tree and tree. If I perceive that a tree is And simultaneously, I know it's my mind perceiving the truth. And in other words, I know and experience that each percept

[45:58]

points to the object being perceived and the mind perceiving. Okay, now, Implied in Sophia's question. Is that the eye does not see the eye. Even if you look in the mirror, you only see the surface of the eye. You don't see the activity of seeing. So I'm looking at you, but I don't see my eye, the eye. I see. So the seeing of seeing is not an activity of seeing. The seeing of seeing is an activity of wisdom. In other words, my eye does not see myself seeing.

[47:29]

Actually it does, but we don't notice it. But I can bring in the idea, which is wisdom, which we can call wisdom. Right knowledge. And through the knowledge that seeing is an activity of mind as well as the object being seen. I can begin to know on each percept. I can begin to know that every object points to the mind as well as to the object. Every person. And through that I begin to perceive differently.

[48:42]

But it's not a difference that arises from perception itself, it's a difference that arises from bringing this concept into the activity of seeing. So one of the signs of and qualifications of adept practice which anyone of you can do even if you don't want to be an adept You can just do it because you want to be a curious and interesting human being. You bring in this concept that every percept points to mind as well as the object.

[49:47]

And if you do that repeatedly, it transforms how you see. Okay, so practicing as an adept means you do that. It's one of the qualifications for and signs of adept practice. Okay, now let's go to the other example. If I simply perceive, if I simply notice the tree as an activity and not as an entity, So I'm noticing the tree as treeing. There is noticing of the tree as activity. And that leads to knowing knowing the tree as stillness as well.

[51:18]

And that leads to knowing the tree as a field of activity. And that leads to knowing the mind as a field of activity. Because it's only the field of mind which can know the tree as a field of activity. Now what's the difference between these two? The first one requires the introduction of the concept that each percept points to mind. The second example only requires that you perceive the tree as it actually is. which is as an activity and that without any concept being brought into it other than knowing it as an activity leads to the mind

[52:23]

leads to engaging the mind in a way that you don't have to point at it. So now the mind and the object are in a non-dualistic activity, circular activity. where the knowing of the tree is an activity, produces knowing the mind is an activity, which allows you to know the mind is an activity, and that's one way of describing non-dualism. And that's really what the word pravartate refers to. The turning around of the world and perception until it's one activity.

[53:57]

Isn't that good? I mean, that is really fantastic. That somebody figured all this out. And that this way of entering the world can be so thought through as a teaching. And that this way of entering the world And discovered as a teaching. In other words, I couldn't even tell you this. if most of you in the room hadn't practiced enough to realize this. And if most of you have practiced this way to realize this, That mutuality of mind and body that we have here in this room brings and can bring and does bring those of you who are new to practice into this field.

[55:15]

And if you don't think so, you'll probably find out it does later. It'll incubate. Like David Byrne says, flowing underground. OK. That's a lift for today probably. Oh! All right, so it's implied in the announcement for this seminar that I give a talk or someone gives a talk on Friday evening. And I'm a... I prefer not to give talks Friday evening.

[56:42]

And I hope next year you don't imply it. You promised it. No. I don't know quite why I don't like to. I know why I don't like doing urban seminars. And that's because a whole lot of people who are only going to be there that night show up and then, how the heck, I'm just not good enough to figure out how to include them. Or stretches my ability. I remember a lecture in Vienna years ago on an evening where I kind of didn't know what to say and I said to the Vienna bander, help!

[58:01]

And luckily you asked some questions. I don't remember. You don't? It was at that Buddhist center in Tibet. Yeah. Oh, it's Thursday. This is Batman and Robin of the Wiener Bande. I don't know what you're going to try. Neither. But in a seminar like this I feel that about as much as we can do is the morning and afternoon and to do an evening too, it's just too much. So I would like a change of scenery. but to fulfill people's expectations.

[59:22]

And since it's so seldom that Christian and Nicole are here, and at ruinous expense they've come all the way across the planet, We ought to make use of them if they're willing to be made use of. So I suggest that each of you this evening sit here and I'll sit next to Michael and one of you can translate for the other, each of you can translate for the other. And if you want to, you can suspend translation and just speak in German. And maybe you say something about what some of the practices of the last... practice period and some of the ideas or whatever struck you like the idea of incubation or something and probably you two ought to talk to each other so you don't both decide on the same practices okay

[60:55]

Okay.

[61:01]

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