In my talk, I said something like, love and hate drive the world. And this was just a kind of offhanded comment, but several people came up to me and said, well, what do you mean by love drives the world? What do you mean by love? And so forth. So I thought that that remains a kind of question in people's minds. So I thought I would maybe try to clarify what I meant by that. There are many things that drive the world, many forces. But two of them are love and hate. When I say the world, mostly I mean our human world. But I don't know about the animal world. The vegetable world, I'm not so sure about either.

[01:05]

But who knows, you know? Do ants love each other? Maybe. I mean, we see ants, you know, crawling around, moving in there, and this is instinct, right? Ants, we say ants move by instinct. Their brains are, how could you put a brain in an ant, right? But if you look at the size of chips, right, an ant's head is pretty big. It holds a lot of information. So who knows, maybe the ants are really controlling the world. In some parts of the world they do. So we don't know how, But I think that with ants, I would venture to say that there is instinctive love with ants. As a matter of fact, I would also think that it's probably conscious love with ants.

[02:05]

They're a higher species than humans. And I'll explain why. I just thought of this. You can divide love into three categories. You can divide it into other categories, but there are three categories. One is instinctual or biological love, and the other one is emotional love, and the other one is conscious love. biological or instinctive love is the attraction, the chemical attraction between people or between people and things. And it accounts for procreation and the need for It's the drive that is not so much willful as instinctual.

[03:13]

It keeps the species going. It's just fundamental. And of course, it involves emotion and it also involves will. But basically, it's biological and chemical. And plants have this. Animals certainly have it. And that's the way we usually think of animals, as being instinctual. And their mating process is strictly instinct, you know? They mate and then they leave, right? But it's not as simple as that. There's also emotional love, I think. Dogs certainly have emotional love, which they attach to their human partners.

[04:15]

It also has not so much instinctual or chemical, but emotional and somewhat selfless. So the level of chemical or instinctual love is, we classify it as a kind of lower level. And then the middle level is emotional. And this is the level, you know, which causes the most problems with people because emotional love, emotion is very unstable. Emotion is like, emote means to move, to move the feelings. So, because our life is, the emotional life is the delusional life.

[05:26]

It's not that all emotions are delusion, but delusion drives so much of emotion. It's the dream life. Emotional life is our dream life. So we can say that we live in a dream. Mostly we live in a dream. And if you think about it, most of our thoughts are dreams, waking dreams. And these waking dreams, are based on self-satisfaction, if you think about it. How do we become more comfortable? How do we gain more possessions? How do we satisfy ourself in some way? So, sometimes we become attached.

[06:29]

The emotions are what cause attachment. the emotion, the feeling comes up and attaches to some person or some object. And especially when it's hard to obtain, the emotion becomes bigger and the desire becomes stronger. So desire drives emotion. then when it comes to a partner, a sexual partner or a partner that we feel fulfills some part of ourself that is not activated, we become attached to the object of our desire or the object of our dream. And if it's obtainable, fine.

[07:31]

If it's not obtainable, or difficult to obtain, then we become more delusional. And the dream becomes more entrenched. And then we speak of attachment and grasping and clinging and captivation. So it's easy for us to become captivated by our dreams, our emotional dreams, which we, the reason why they're delusional is because we take them as real. So for instance, I fall in love with somebody. through my dream, or my desire, and the emotion moves me.

[08:40]

And I think, this is the only one for me. And then we get together, and we realize that it doesn't work. and then it falls apart and then we're left with this clinging even though the object is not there. So there's this suffering that comes through not having the object and yet needing the object. So then we look at somebody else and then the same emotions come up for another object, for somebody else. And then we attach to that person and we say, this is the only one, this is the best. And we go through this hundreds of times.

[09:45]

And having difficulty seeing why that's happening. So we become driven by that desire, that emotional love. It's not that emotional love is not good. If you have a partner, there needs to be some emotional love or else it's not filled out. The problem is that emotion becomes the dominant feeling, the dominant part of the relationship. And relationships can't exist just on emotion. They destroy themselves. Relationships that are driven by emotion only,

[10:48]

fall apart, destroy themselves because emotion is so strong and it's not enough to hold something together. And also, emotion is selfish. Emotional love is selfish. It's driven by the desire for something, for self-satisfaction. As long as we're driven by the desire for self-satisfaction, whatever we take up, that is driven by that desire fails because it's based on a delusion and it's just bound to fail. There needs to be something more substantial and real. to hold a relationship together or to see what a relationship really is in its reality.

[11:55]

So the third aspect is conscious love. Conscious love is love that is not that is much more rare and difficult in some ways. For some people it's easier, but for most people it's more difficult because there's no self-interest involved. So conscious love is when you are more interested in the welfare of another person or more people than in your own self-satisfaction. So this is more spiritual love. People say platonic. I don't know if platonic is the right word.

[12:59]

That doesn't quite fit. But it's love that it's not, It's free. It's free of bonds and self-interest and cunning or trying to get something or keep something. It's simply the desire to help another person or to support another person or to promote something. You know, all of us, most of us, most people, tend to, even though we like, we promote monogamous relationships, there's some part of us that's always looking around for somebody, at somebody else. You know, and we say, uh-oh, we shouldn't be looking at somebody else. But actually, it's natural to want to love everybody.

[14:00]

That's natural. But if you have this emotional attachment, love for everybody, that's disaster. So the only way that you can love everyone is to love everyone disinterestedly or non-self-centeredly or without attachment or you know, the string that keeps you connected. No strings attached. And this is spiritual, more in the realm of spiritual love. And it's, in Buddhadharma, it's characterized as metta. Metta is called loving kindness in translation.

[15:08]

But it's the desire to actually love each person, to love everyone without picking and choosing. And it's connecting with everyone's Buddha nature. And it's love that promotes freedom instead of bondage. So there's metta, which is loving kindness, so to speak, the kindness of love. Wishing the welfare of all beings without self-interest.

[16:24]

So the love of self-interest is what really drives the world. If you look at our present situation of election 2000, You can see very clearly, people are not interested in the basic issues which benefit everyone. If you're interested in the basic issues which benefit everyone, then you're interested in the environment and all those good things, right? But so many people are only interested in their own issue. So when they try and decide who to vote for president, well how will that benefit me and my special little issue? And that's what decides the way a person will vote, is on their little special interest. And totally neglecting the good of society.

[17:31]

Anyway, that drives the world. So we have this push and pull and divisiveness and frustration. Anyway, so conscious love Even though we do have emotional love and we do have instinctual love, they're basic, all three are basic in all of us. But conscious love is the love which makes an effort to transcend or to control emotional love and instinctual love. So you may have some strong emotional feeling for somebody.

[18:40]

And maybe it's good to stop and think about what this is about. And to maybe step back And well, what is this about? Is this about my self-satisfaction or is this about love? If it's about love, then the person's interests come before your self-satisfaction. even though you may never have self-satisfaction, how do you maintain the conscious love? So this is a good test.

[19:47]

As long as we're always wanting something from the other person, and not getting it, it just causes suffering unending. And you see it all over. The couple, I remember, I used to live in the Western Edition before they tore it down in San Francisco in the 50s. And I lived in Attic for $20 a month. And down below, there was this old couple. And this is their conversation. he would say, fuck you. And she would say, shit. And this would just go on, back and forth, continuously, all night, all day. A strong example of what actually goes on, you know.

[20:57]

You get what you pay for. What? You get what you pay for and you pay 20 bucks. You got a free Ionesco play. Well, it's true, actually. The Western edition was like Ionesco. It was great. Well, Laurent originally was 35. And the landlord liked it so much, the landlord liked it so much he reduced it to 20. But maybe it was the couple. So conscious love is what, it needs cultivation. it's not necessarily something that, it is instinctive, but its emotional love is so much stronger that it overshadows conscious love.

[22:14]

So conscious love has, Although it is inherent in us, definitely. If it wasn't inherent in us, then you couldn't cultivate it. But since it's inherent in us, it has to be discovered and then cultivated so that it can actually come forth and is far more satisfying than emotional love. when it's totally allowed to come forth and develop, then it's the most satisfying thing, actually, because there's no self in it. The problem we have is that we cling to self, because if we don't cling to self, we'll feel that we don't have anything.

[23:17]

You know, if we take self away or ego away, then what's left? Since we're so attached to it and let it operate so strongly, we identify with it as myself. That's a basic problem. That's why we're always talking about letting go of self. Dropping body and mind means to drop ego, to drop self. But there needs to be some ego, there needs to be some emotion, there needs to be some instinct, but conscious love needs to be developed so that it becomes the most basic and takes the place of egotism. and self-satisfaction because it's the utmost self-satisfying thing. So a person who has selfless love relates to everyone.

[24:22]

Like my teacher Suzuki Roshi had this selfless love and everybody could relate to him, almost everybody. And People say, well, what is it about him? And, well, he always, he seemed to, when he was talking to me or relating to me, he always related to me. There was, you know, he knew who I was. That's what people say. He knew exactly who I was. He could see me completely, even though maybe he didn't know me. So that's because he could see clearly. So emotional love is biased. It's always biased. There's no way that it can be unbiased because it's something for me. See, we project so much on others.

[25:25]

We project all our emotional life on others. And it's the other, the other. When there's no self, then self and other are not, even though you are you and I am me, self and other are not different. So in the wedding ceremony, we say, treat each other as Buddha. That's what that means. Treat each other as Buddha means to look for the Buddha nature in the other person, and to relate to the Buddha nature in the other person. In that way, there are many things that you can accept about another person,

[26:31]

which in emotional love you wouldn't be able to accept. And also, if you want somebody to change, don't try to change them. Simply relate to them as they are. And then there's a blending. If we relate to each other just as we are, without trying to change each other, then there becomes a blending, because there's nothing standing in the way. As soon as I say, I want you to be like this, or you say, I want you to be like, we retreat into our corners. But if we let you know, let each other be as we are and see each other clearly, then over time, with patience, there's transformation.

[27:36]

Because there's nothing standing in the way. As soon as we start criticizing each other, a little bit, You know, when people get together, they get together because of some attraction, but that attraction doesn't include the whole thing. It only includes some part that is agreeable. So we meet in this agreeable part, but then there's all this other part behind that that's not so agreeable. And little by little, all that starts coming out, you know? And then we have to deal with that. So this is one reason why relationships don't last so long. Even though they start out, you know, with a bang, with some optimism, they end up with some pessimism.

[28:47]

and then you find the other one's little thing there, and then you put your wedge in there, and pretty soon, you know, love turns into hate in its extreme form. So this emotion can go any way. It can become love, it can become hate, it can become anything. And it's the same feeling, the same emotion, but it just takes on the character of the desire. So the same emotion, which we call love, honey, is, when it sours, it just turns into its opposite, which is ill will and hate. Right, so you always, not always, but there was an old song, you always hate the one you love.

[29:50]

Hurt. Hurt. Hurt. Yeah, so thank you very much. You always hurt the one you love. But eventually, you know, it goes back and forth, so it's unstable. Talked about hate, ill will, yeah. Yeah. Well, ill will, when we can't get what we want, then it turns into frustration, and then it turns into anger, and then it turns into, you know, various...

[30:51]

aberrations called hate and cruelty and so forth. So if you look at it, there are a lot of people who live on hate or are fed by hate because they can't be fed by love. And it's like the opposite reaction. If you look at somebody like, for example, Milosevic, right? Both of his parents committed suicide. And he was brought up in, you know, all kinds of adverse situations. And he just grew up not valuing life, you know? So this is the dark side. and has tremendous effect on the world.

[31:57]

I mean, look at Hitler, right? So, in men, there is a tendency toward valor, you know, and to do something Like, men like war, you know, and it's part of their personality. But men also like peace. So war and peace, you know, they rule the world. They, you know, there's war and then there's peace, and then there's war and then there's peace. They just go back and forth. And it's all emotional. There are cold, like Napoleon was very cold, Hitler was very cold, but that coldness is cold emotion.

[33:10]

We think of emotion as hot, but emotion can be hot, it can also be cold. and it fixes the mind, right? So that the mind doesn't have to worry about feelings, just blocks off feelings, but it's cold emotion. You can say it's lack of emotion, you know, lack of feeling, but I think of it as cold emotion that, I think Hitler was very emotional, so emotional that he couldn't stand it hot. It came out cold and destructive. Well, yes, I think the third one kind of purifies the other two, or holds them in balance.

[34:30]

But doesn't eliminate them? No, it doesn't eliminate them. I think it's a matter of balance. I think she was talking mostly about anger up here. She was also talking about relationships. And she stated, in the course of this, to the shock of various people in this endo, that in the Buddhist teaching was to really uproot anger. of grief and hatred. And I remember somebody in the sympathy saying, Marina, you can't just uproot. You don't really. He didn't say that. And she said, that's exactly what I mean, that he did say that.

[35:34]

And there's a kind of functioning. Okay, this is like what the Pali Sutras say, to dig out the root, so it doesn't no longer, like a canthus, no matter how much you cut it down or even dig out the roots, if there's anything left, it springs up again. So you can dig around that way, but another way is instead of trying to dig out the roots to cultivate the other side. If you have a kind of revelation of what it means to be conscious

[36:48]

then the other side tends to be dormant. The sutras tend to say things in a very radical way, like cut off ego. Well, you can't cut off ego. Well, cut off your head. But ego, You have to see that if you take things that literally then you become very discouraged. It's not possible because emotions come up and then we have to deal with emotions as they come up instead of cutting them off. you may not know which thing you're cutting off, you know, with the thing that you're cutting off.

[37:57]

You may think, I'm cutting off my finger, but you cut off the whole hand, you know. So you have to be careful about cutting off. I don't like to use the word cutting off because, well, uprooting, yeah. You know, I think that We have to let these feelings come up, but it's a matter of where you take the feeling to. After it comes up, what you do with it. That's more the level of how to deal with emotions and feelings, is you let them come up and then you deal with them. Like, I really have this ill will toward so-and-so. That's the emotion that comes up. But what am I going to do about that? I also have the feeling of universal love, right? So I have to also, that's something that comes up which I have to deal with.

[39:06]

So this person who I have ill will toward, I have to deal with in a compassionate way. So my love comes up as compassion for this person. So if I have this ill will toward this person, I have to think, what is it that made them like this? What are all the forces behind this person? When I'm relating to this person, I'm not just relating to this person. I'm relating to all the forces in that person. And it's the forces that is the problem, as well as the person. If you know how to relate to this person with compassion, then that diffuses the strong emotional hate or anger or ill will, and compassion takes the place.

[40:08]

I think it's much more realistic, but a person who cultivates meta, continuously, will have less anger coming up, less ill will coming up. And when it does come up, we'll know immediately how to deal with it. So instead of trying to dig a hole to cultivate the right kind of plants, If you've ever tried to take a tree stump out, you can cut down the tree, but then the business of trying to take out the stump. Usually we leave the stumps in the ground, unless they're, you know. So anyway, cultivating the plants that you want to grow is, I think, more important than trying to uproot something that, well, you can't uproot, you know.

[41:10]

Anger will come up no matter how much goodwill you have. That's what I was just talking about. It sounded like more you're diffusing it, diffusing that energy. Well, you take the same energy. See, the emotion is the same. The emotion of anger is the same as the emotion of compassion. So you're transforming that emotion into compassion. So you're not losing any of that energy at all? No, you don't lose the energy. With the same energy, you're turning it into compassion. Andrea's ready to hit the bell. So, going back to the couple who live beneath you, so what if

[42:17]

the husband continued to say, fuck you, but the wife started to develop her conscious love, her meta, and she didn't respond with, you shit. And he kept saying, fuck you, and she kept developing her more conscious love. And it didn't seem to have an effect, he just kept saying, fuck you. So, in that case, how Should she stay with him, and if so, how long? Forever? Should she never leave us? I'll leave that up to them. I can't make decisions for people. So, each on a case-by-case basis. That's right, case-by-case basis. But, one possibility is that if she stops receiving, then whatever he's saying returns to himself. And then pretty soon he's just talking to himself. And then maybe he'll wake up and say, I'm just saying fuck you to myself.

[43:19]

Which is what he's doing anyway, and he just has to realize it. So she steps out of the way. One more, Mark. Conscious love means that whoever you are relating to, that's in the foreground. So when somebody says something that disturbs you about yourself, your emotion that comes up which might be anger or resentment or fear or whatever, does not take the place of your original feeling or your original non-discriminative love.

[44:25]

So that's called responding. If you let the anger come up, that's called reacting. That's the difference between responding and reacting. Responding means that you respond with the thoughtful response. Reacting means that you just kind of let your emotions do the talking. And then Bill, no, I'm sorry. I thought you said he was the last one. He was, but, you know. You had your hand up for a while. Oh, I keep changing. But anyway, I'll say what I was going to say. I noticed, as usual, I had a lot of things and thoughts. One very strong drive was to help you out by saying something even deeper than what you said.

[45:34]

And then, I mean, I had some comment to make. I was really driven to say it. And then I already thought, oh, and afterwards people will say to me, this was just barely conscious, they'll say to me, oh, I really like what you said. Maybe they won't. So go ahead and say it. And then I asked myself, what if I really asked a question from the heart that really came out of my Instead of that really articulate, insightful, powerful comment, I came up with, how can I stop criticizing my son? That's right. Good. That's a great, great go on. I really like what you said.

[46:39]

Bill? Okay. And this is because they have selfless love for each other. I mean, you just see it as instinct, but it could be selfless love because when one of them is in trouble, they all come to the aid of that one and sacrifice themselves. Why do they do that? They have no trouble doing that.

[47:41]

You can say, well, it's instinct, you know, because how can ants have love? That's human. Dogs have love, bears have love. Why not ants? Anyway, no one will, no one knows. But that's, you know, there are a lot of people who think that dogs only act out of instinct. or that bears only act out of instinct and don't have consciousness. That's crazy. So I think at some point we may discover that all sentient things have consciousness in some form, and various degrees of love or kindness or selflessness.

[48:52]

More than we think, people say, oh, people act just like animals. But animals sometimes act more human than a lot of humans. So I have to be careful how I speak. Anyway.

[49:13]

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