Hello everyone, how's the sound? Great. Welcome, welcome to everyone. You know every month in these little boxes I see faces I've never seen before so I want to especially welcome you if you're new to BCC. I hope you're all staying well and your loved ones as well and I want to take a moment just to take note of all the people here in our communities and around the world who are suffering, those whose lives have been upended, the difficulties of the times that we're living in, the unevenness of the resources to help support so many people and bring them relief. And as an extension of that I want to say that what I say today about how I practice with

[01:04]

difficulty, it pales really when I think about all that's going on in the world today so I just want you to know that I know that. I want to talk today about getting stuck, what that is, how being stuck may pull us away from what's right in front of us and how zen practice helps us to actively choose how to respond when that happens. Last month our family took a backpacking trip into emigrant wilderness which is adjacent to Yosemite and it's similar in its kind of great beauty of open granite terrain. We returned to a route that Victor and I had done a couple of times some 25 or 35 years ago and we wanted to return.

[02:09]

It follows a long canyon, a long deep canyon, the Cherry Canyon and under different climate circumstances a kind of roaring river, the Cherry River, the Cherry Creek it's called but it's really more like a big river. Driving in the last 30 miles there was evidence of a fire that happened in 2013 that burned a large girth of Yosemite and emigrant. I remembered the grandness of the trees in that forest along the road. They were gone. It was gone and in their place there was this crisscross of logging roads and bare dirt for miles. Still there was a kind of sense of hope I felt by seeing that there were hundreds and hundreds of little tiny trees springing up everywhere. New growth that happens after a large fire.

[03:15]

When we left Sonora that morning for the mountains it was 105 degrees. We were happy to be driving into the mountains because we thought inevitably it will be much cooler. It wasn't. It remained in the 90s all the time. We were out there but we were grateful for clear blue skies and no smoke. A couple of days into the route and the trail just disappeared. It was obvious that it hadn't been maintained for a long time. At first it wasn't a problem because we knew the route. We remembered the route and the route followed the base of the canyon along the river and the river was very low so it made walking easy. We've done a lot of bushwhacking over the years. We have good map

[04:23]

skills, a lot of experience so we weren't worried. Normally there would be lots of water coming off the mountains. There was none. There would be tributaries, streams feeding into the river. All were dry, completely dry. There were many downed trees and trees that had been obviously struck by lightning and started small fires. The evidence of the drought was really clear and ever-present. There was even a sign at the trailhead that warned hikers to be careful where they pitched their tents because there were so many dry, brittle trees that were being reported snapping, falling over, just unable to stay rooted. The effect of the drought on the natural environment was

[05:24]

far greater than I had remembered from walking last summer. Despite all this, there was great beauty there. Plenty of nice swimming holes and camping spots, clear skies, no wind, silence, you know, the enjoyment of our time together out there. But somewhere towards the last couple days of the walk, the route shoots away from the river and up over a large mountain. It's not possible to walk along the river at that point. Then it comes back down to the river and then it goes back up through a long forest leading eventually back to the road and the trailhead. We were never lost, but we got stuck many times over those last two days. We could see where we were going, but repeatedly we couldn't seem to get there.

[06:28]

It was extremely hot. We had to turn back several times and try different routes. There was a point where we stopped to scan this long climb again, one where we'd been stuck more than one time. And our daughter Li Hong turned to me and she said, Mom, are you mad? I must have looked really serious. I know I was very quiet. All of us were looking back and forth over the mountain, looking at possible routes, not really sure what to do. The map didn't help us very much because there was so much overgrowth and change from what we had remembered. I've walked in the mountains for decades and I've been in dangerous situations probably, well, several times, but I've always known what to do, had the training to know what to do.

[07:35]

I've never been or felt stuck. I said to her, no, I'm not mad, I'm scared. I can feel the adrenaline coursing through the body and I'm just trying to manage it so I don't do or say something stupid. The last part of the walk on the last day was miserable, really. We had to find our way through what was obviously burned at some point and was now completely overgrown, thick, with brush that was taller than we were. And most of it had these long spines, prickly spines on the bushes. We tried several ways to get around this part and in the end we just had to kind of slowly go through these spiny bushes.

[08:36]

We were sure that the road was on the other side, but actually at this point we just also were not sure. That morning at daybreak we thought we'd be out by noon because really the walk out was only about four or five miles. We were already, I think, imagining drooling over the lunch we'd be eating in Sonora when we got back. When we finally got through all that overgrowth, we walked through a nice older forest of trees and on the other side of that was the road. It was 7 30 at night. We had all been wondering where we were going to sleep that night, realizing that we might have to backtrack again and go back down to the river and try again the next day. So we were really relieved to find the road. Since then, that was about a month ago,

[09:41]

since then I've thought a lot about what does it mean to be stuck anywhere? Out there, in traffic, in a crowd, on the highway, on BART, in a relationship, Zen practice, in a pandemic. What does it actually mean to be stuck? And is there a tendency to kind of devalue being stuck instead of seeing it as just what's happening? What do we sometimes unnecessarily add to the situation through mental or emotional formations that can make it worse than it actually is? And what are our best practices to meet what arises when we're stuck? So these are the questions I've been pondering and exploring with my family. I wish I could

[10:47]

say to you that my experience was one of continuous, of being continuously curious in this totally new experience, of being open and feeling solidly grounded in this is just what's happening. It wasn't like that. At times I was fearful, frustrated, fatigued, thoughts of wishing my way out of a situation that I didn't like, wanting to blame something or someone for being stuck. And yet I can also say to you that in retrospect, there's been what I'm calling a curiosity seed planted. A kind of, I guess you could say an unexpected, positive outcome of that experience, because I'm asking, how can we really be open and curious moment to moment? How is any experience that we

[11:54]

have any different from being on the Zafu? There we learn, we vow to stay in the moment, to meet the moment. It's our intention and we keep returning to that. So how do we do that in the everyday difficult situations we find ourselves in? How do we actually follow our best intentions? Dogen says to forget yourself for now and practice inwardly, that we can't access Buddha's teaching through having ideas or not having ideas. He talks about how the mind of pure practice, and I think pure means simple and sincere, that pure practice is the way.

[12:59]

Bringing that forward, then the body and the mind can experience calmness. And when there isn't ease in the body and mind, there will be stuck places. To put it another way, Maizumi Roshi encouraged his students to be one with it, to meet all of life with attention and openness and curiosity, no matter what we're doing, to practice life in this way every day, to be deliberate in carrying this attitude of Zen into all of our everyday activities. So that sounds really good to me, but how do we do this in the midst of those thorny situations we find ourselves in? I've been studying case 19 of the gateless gate, which I think offers a bit of insight.

[14:07]

Hozon also referenced this case last Saturday. It's a famous case, Ordinary Mind is the Way, and it's the 9th century Chinese teacher Nansen and his disciple, Zhou Xu, discussing how to be one with it. Zhou Xu asked Nansen, what is the way? Ordinary mind is the way, Nansen replied. Shall I try to seek after it? Zhou Xu asked. If you try for it, you will become separated from it, responded Nansen. And so Jin Roshi translated this as, if you run after it, you stumble past. If you don't, you stagnate. Zhou Xu persisted. How can I know the way unless I try for it? Nansen said, the way is not a matter

[15:11]

of knowing or not knowing. Knowing is delusion, not knowing is confusion. When you have really reached the true way beyond doubt, you will find it as vast and boundless as outer space. How can it be talked about on the level of right and wrong? So this last question, how can it be talked about on the level of right and wrong? This seems key to me. Nansen is asking Zhou Xu, why are you trying to put ordinary, everyday mind into the realm of opposites? Good or bad? Confident or afraid? Clear or confused? Frustrated or settled? Stop doing that. Ordinary mind is really vast and it's inclusive. Everything is part of it. So stop trying to

[16:16]

divide it all up. It's just naturally full of all these opposites, maybe like the sky or the ocean, maybe like the diversity of plants and animals and humans. We can't reduce everyday mind to the opposites of the thoughts and judgments and healings and activities and ideas that we have. The way just isn't like that. Nothing is separate. Nothing is distinct from ordinary, everyday mind. It really includes everything. Try as we do to separate it all up. Everything rises and falls away. Everything comes to life and dies. That's obvious.

[17:37]

There isn't one without the other. I think it takes us a long time to really see and experience that, to trust it, to believe it is the way it is. When we have preconceived ideas and only a limited view of the way life is, in any particular moment, it makes it difficult to stay in the moment with some kind of freshness when there's a situation we don't really like. Out there on that walk, we had the memory of the way it used to be in our minds and our experience of that, and it was pretty different out there. When we got physically stuck, actually that's all it really was. Sometimes we added something extra, our own particular place where we went to in the mind or the emotions or the body. We were lucky because of the training and the experience

[18:43]

we have being out there and because we had been in that particular place before. Even though it looked different, it also looked familiar. And we were lucky because of the relationships we have with each other, the trust. So we didn't go into panic mode. Nobody lost it. For me, how I dealt with the situation was a direct result of being a SEND student. And I want all of us, each of us, in this lay practice to really consider the ways we're all able to take our practice right out into the world of everyday life, no matter where we are. This is a great contribution to the world around us in all of the difficulties that so many people are facing right now.

[19:43]

So feeling afraid because there was some perceived danger was not really a problem. And being physically stuck at times wasn't a problem either. But what about being taken away by a mind of imagination or doom? What do we do when we feel stuck? We return to the practice, to remembering, to reminding ourselves that we know how to practice. We know what to do. We don't know the outcome, but we know what to do. We can return to the breath and the posture. We turn to just this, just this moment. Do what's right in front of us. Keep doing that. Not get taken away from the moment. And when we are taken away, when we see that we are, then we can return.

[20:54]

I think that's about as good as it gets, perhaps. We're all human. We fall off the Zafu time and time again, and we return. The mind, the emotions, the body states are not places of finality that define us that way. We return. That's all we do. Many years ago, I asked Sojin Roshi about how to practice with the gaps in practice. You know, I was feeling that, okay, sometimes I'm practicing, but sometimes I'm really not practicing. How do I practice with those gaps? And he said, oh, yeah, the gaps. Don't worry about them. Just come back to practice. Then, right before he died, I was at his house one day, sitting out in the backyard with him,

[22:05]

and I asked him the exact same question years later. How do we practice with the gaps? And he said, there are no gaps. They're all, it's all connected. He said, don't harp on when you're going to be released. Completely live your life continuously, one moment at a time. Everything can be seen as an opportunity. So, all this sounds pretty good to me, too, and yet we still might be left with the practical question that comes back to Doshu's question. How do we put all of this into practice in our lives? Norman Fisher asks it this way. He says, how do we activate practice? How do we access it?

[23:08]

How do we understand it on a moment-to-moment, day-by-day basis, wherever we are, in whatever situation we find ourselves in? And he says, we need to consider both attitude and activity. The attitude that we learn to cultivate in Zen practice is essential, really, to how we've chosen to live on this path. So, we learn to pay attention to it. It's not a muscling our way through kind of attitude. It's realizing that the barrier we face is right here. Wherever we are, it's right here. It's not external. So, in emigrant wilderness, we were physically stuck at times, but the real barrier was the mind. The mind that followed

[24:12]

a story that led to fear and distaste and worry. Norman says, undoing, releasing, falling apart, not holding on, not building anything up, throwing things away, not adding something extra. These are ways, our way, of returning to, I'm just doing this. There's no way to do it, but I'm just doing it and letting it go and not worrying about what happens. Our Zen attitude is about gradual development over time. And I think that's kind of key, gradual development over time. It includes our devotion, our dedication to the practice, how faithful we are to the practice, our trust in the practice,

[25:19]

the practice itself, even when we might not trust ourselves or each other's. And this is something that we can't really produce, because it just happens, it takes time, it evolves over time. Lots of time showing up, staying with it when we're bored, scared, frustrated, or even content. Every day showing up. Suzuki Roshi used to say, nothing special, being no good at it, realizing I can't really do this, realizing I keep making mistakes, realizing I'm tired, realizing I don't want to go any deeper, realizing it's not what I thought it was going to be.

[26:25]

Over time, just doing the practice, Norman says the practice itself pulls us and shows us what to do, and we don't even notice it. In this way, we come to learn that the practice is right here, it's always with us. So that's the attitude of our practice. What about the activities? The activities, of course, include regular zazen. And this also, over time, becomes a really natural part of our life, like brushing our teeth. The activities also include studying, talking with others, supporting others, developing our sangha practice, coming together as often as we can to sit. We sit for and with each other, and this kind of helps us to remember that this practice is not

[27:34]

for me. Sometimes we sit alone the way we are now as a result of pandemic, and if we come together again and sit and practice in our temple, it helps the practice extend, and it helps the practice grow, because the body-to-body practice is very encouraging to one another. Over time, the development of our sangha relationships, our sangha friendships to our teachers and to each other, they grow, and I think they flourish. They're important because they're about relating to each other as both Buddhas and also as ordinary everyday people who make mistakes.

[28:34]

Norman Fisher says, in these spiritual relationships, we put the Buddha foot forward. I like that phrase, the Buddha foot. I think the Buddha foot holds the personal me foot, yet it's broader, it's deeper, it holds more. It's why I didn't panic up there on the mountain when I was afraid. The practice of coming back to the breath is what came to me when I paused. I trust this practice completely. Just that short pause helped me return to the Buddha foot instead of to the Susan foot that wanted to get away. Norman says, if we train ourselves by putting the Buddha foot forward,

[29:38]

it helps us establish a way of relating to ourselves and to others in which we discover that all relationships are special. So then we want to take care of each other, not panic or lose it. Be there for each other and extend that outward. Then there are the Zen temple activities of bowing, chanting, cooking, serving, dishwashing, cleaning, zazen instruction, gardening. All these activities help us learn to pay attention to being right there, right there in our life with all of its ordinary things. Activity. This is pretty basic to Zen practice. When we get stuck, what do we do? We turn towards the difficulty because we know it's only one of

[30:47]

many parts of our full experience as a human being. We can pause knowing it's probably not a good idea to make a decision about something from a place of anxiety or fear or anger or frustration. In that simple pause, there's a place of stillness. No words, no repeating thoughts. That kind of allows our emotions to wash through us or move through us more quickly than if we take them up with story making. So we choose not to fuel them with words or ideas. We notice a story emerging and practice interrupting those habit thoughts. Drop them.

[31:48]

We offer ourselves encouragement instead of berating ourselves. And in that way, I think we learn to do that with others. We remind ourselves in our practice that there's something so much bigger than this me, myself, my, mine. This takes practice and time. We decide to set an intention. We start small and we build that muscle to include more as our strength grows. We learn to do this in our practice together. We're not perfect, so when we make a mistake, we learn to remind ourselves to return to our

[32:50]

Buddha foot, the grounded foot. Everything is not always so personal. So, Jinroshi said often that mistakes are just a fact of life and that our response to mistakes, how we respond is more important than the mistake itself. Most important, maybe, we remind ourselves that our life is a mix. Always a mix of opposites that work together in some way or another. A kind of mysterious way. So, we can learn to include both, like the foot ahead and the foot behind in walking. We can stop trying to push away one side or the other. And we remind ourselves that we have this possibility of being curious. Keep planting that

[33:55]

seed. Stop berating ourselves when things aren't the way we'd like and instead we can marry the opposites. Pema Chodron says that we're neither doomed nor completely free. That's a great little phrase. We're neither doomed nor completely free, but we are creating our future, she says, with every word, every action, and every thought. So, we need to remember that it's not an end, it's a practice. I asked our daughter about this topic as it relates to dancing because that's what she does. I asked her to say something about how she sees getting stuck or not staying in the moment in the

[34:58]

world of dance. Oh, she said, it's really important to stay in the moment when you're dancing and you have to be prepared for what's next. So, I asked her, so how do you do both of those things? And she said, well, it takes a lot of repetition. So, you know the moves in your body and you don't have to think about them. They are just right there and they unfold. So, I asked her, what about getting stuck? She said, well, so far I haven't felt stuck in terms of not being able or willing to move. I always want to move, but sometimes when we're learning a piece of repertoire, she said, it's possible to feel stuck because I can be, I can feel bored with the piece. So, I asked her, how do you deal with that? And she said, we practice bringing something fresh

[36:02]

to each time we do it so that it's new every time, because it's not really the same piece. It's not even the same movement every time you do it. So, you have to develop that attitude that it's new no matter how many times you do it. Well, that sounds to me a lot like how we also train ourselves in our practice, how our attitude grows and develops in Zen practice. Sojin Roshi used to tell us that no matter how many times we sit Zazen and we think we're doing it in the very same way, it will always be different. So, stop trying to repeat it or get something. Who we think we are at the personal relative level, it's a very limited version of who we

[37:24]

really are in the Buddha foot. When we practice with our direct experience of right now, when we're willing to practice being present to that, maybe we're more able to contact more spaciousness or that pause and in that an ability to choose more wisely in our lives. What seems key to me here is this notion of being willing. How do we strengthen that willingness? And I think that comes right down to the training. This is what Zen practice offers us, a training in how to just stay with just this, whatever that is. On the other hand, when stuck

[38:24]

and without practice, we can quickly move into some kind of holding on pattern or create false assumptions and some kind of orientation towards me. And then that can lead to wanting results or an outcome. We can feel like we're not getting anywhere. I certainly felt that way at times on the hike I described to you. And at some point, that feeling of not getting anywhere, it becomes the problem. And this itself impairs the possible solution. Habit, energy, compulsive actions, reactivity, all of those can get triggered. Being stuck can really lead us into a feeling of uncertainty for sure.

[39:34]

But I think it's right there in that place of uncertainty where we can experience something new, some space, because it's the place where we have a choice to be open to it or not. And I think the more we practice this place in Zazen, the more we'll be able to see it appear in all the other daily, ordinary experiences of our lives. It will just pop up. Oh, here I am again in this very uncertain situation. So when it's a choice between feeling sorry for ourself or berating ourself or judging ourself and allowing that storyline to grow or really deliberately returning to the

[40:40]

training of our Zen practice, what are we going to choose? I think the answer to that question really evolves over time. Our training kind of offers us a union, I guess I think of it, of the head, you know, the sensing mind and the care, the empathy of the heart and the groundedness of the body right here in the present. When we choose to come back to that union the way we do in Zazen, then that's a moment of practicing Buddha's way, kind of pure and simple and not so simple.

[41:43]

And I think that's really what taking Zazen out into the world means. The world really needs that we do this practice. Because Sojin Roshi says it's how we learn to respond instead of react. It's how we learn to take care of things that need to be taken care of. And it's how we learn to do what's right in front of us. And honestly, I think that really, that's enough. So it looks like we have a few moments for comments or questions. Maybe we could just

[42:46]

take a minute to pause and see what comes up. And then Heiko will manage the questions for us. Thank you all very much for being here today. Thank you very much, Susan, for your inspiring talk. Everyone, please raise your hand or send a chat and I will read your question. Thank you. Okay, thank you. We have a question from Sean. Please go ahead, Sean, and ask your question.

[44:15]

Let me spotlight you here. Hi, Sean. Hi, Susan. I just want to really thank you for your talk. I don't have a question. I just wanted to say that it was very timely. And it seems that pretty much anytime I open a page in beginner's mind or, you know, it's always timely. It seems to be timely. And so I'm just going to take what you said with me through my day. And I'll probably even look for a recording and play it again. And I just really wanted to say thank you. Thank you, Sean. I like what you said about it being timely. That's a good thing to remember today. Susan, we have a question from Nathan Britton.

[45:22]

He asks, how is ordinary mind different from big mind? That's a great question. Well, the way I think of it, and you know, this is just a small perspective, maybe others can say something, is that includes everything. So it includes small mind and big mind. And that it's all there together. So we don't want to push small, you know, big mind includes small mind. Ordinary mind includes both small mind and big mind. We just don't want to be pulled around by small mind. We include it, but we don't want to follow it so much. What do you think?

[46:27]

No words. Thank you, Nathan, Susan. Now we have a question from Rondi or Charlie. Go ahead, Rondi or Charlie. Hi, Rondi and Charlie. Hi, Susan. I've been up there where you were, not exactly where you were, but I've gone through a butt brush and, you know, I understand what you went through up there. Even the best map and the greatest compass don't solve all your concerns. But I want to ask you, did you think about what was left of the Donner party when you were going through this? I did not. The thought never crossed my mind. But that's what they came through. That's a good gap. You know, the thing, the reason I didn't think of that, honestly, the point of this talk is that

[47:40]

it became much bigger in the mind than it really was. We had options. You know, there's a lake below there, Cherry Lake, where that dam is. At the very least, we could have gone there and followed the road out across the dam. There were options. So I don't know about the Donner group. But thank you for your question. Thank you, Susan. Thanks for the talk. Thank you, Charlie. We have a question now from Penelope. Please go ahead, Penelope. Hi, Penelope. Hi, Susan. Thank you so much for your wonderful talk. As you were speaking, I kept having a flashback when you were speaking about the element of choice in our practice, always the element of choice of Thich Nhat Hanh, who used to talk about that we had our intention,

[48:43]

in his words, pointing ourselves toward the North Star. And when we fell off the path, that we would notice that we had done that and come back onto the path again and reset the intention. And there's something in that for me that is a very gentle practice. So it's a forgiving. So there are going to be lots of places where we muddle up, but you were also referring to and then what? And then what do we do? What's our choice in the next round of that? So that's what triggered for me. I don't know if you have a response to that. It's not quite a question, but it could be a question. No, I like. Thank you. I like what you what you're saying. I just think, you know, when we I love the readings. I love the sutras. But, you know, in all the flowery language and instruction, there remains the question, OK, this sounds good, but how do I actually do that?

[49:48]

Yeah. Yes. So I think I don't always have an answer, but I think that that question is something that increasingly as I get older, I carry around with me all the time. OK, but how do I actually do that? And the question is far more instructive than any answer because life is always changing. It is. You know? Yeah. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Luminous Heart. Now we have a question from Nick Robinson. Please go ahead, Nick. Hi, Nick. Please unmute yourself. OK, thank you. Excuse me. Thanks for your talk. I wonder about how to work with fear. Hearing your story and imagining how I would feel, I think that would really be challenging.

[50:50]

And thinking about how I work with fear in my life, it's very challenging. I wonder if there's a way to gently approach fear as a companion and make friends with it. What do you think? I think that's wonderful advice, you know, that the instruction is not to push anything away, not to think that I'm going to get beyond it and it's never going to happen again, never to keep coming back to whatever is there. I don't think that the instructions say don't feel it. The instructions say don't react to it, don't be reactive, but feel what you feel, feel it deeply. And I think it's only through

[51:54]

feeling it deeply that it shifts. And, you know, the kind of fear I'm talking about is nothing like the kind of fear that people are feeling all over the world in the situations that people less fortunate than us are in. But in my own experience of fear, it's important to feel it. And just that, and not to go not to follow the story that may arise. You know, how do I want to deal with that is so much more important than why do I feel it? Why can't I feel something else, right? So, yes, I felt afraid out there. But honestly, you know, this is why Sangha is so important. The trust that I feel in my family, I could express that, you know, I could feel it and I

[52:56]

could express it. We could talk about it and then we could go forward. So I think in our Sangha relationships, that's very important for us to share our feelings with each other as we develop trust. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Nick. Nick, we now have a question from Stephanie. Please go ahead, Stephanie. Hi, Stephanie. I wanted to thank you for your inspiring talk. And when I think of what you went through out there, I can see and appreciate the depth of your practice, that you were able to get access to the faith and the trust that you must have in yourself in order to have done that. It's a practice that in times I've had a lot of difficulty

[53:57]

and not known where, how to get through things. And I keep coming back to the practice. It's a simple and not easy thing to do. So I appreciate your humility and willingness to give this talk. Thank you so much. And what I want to add to that, though, is that it's really important to remember, I'm watching all of you. You know, this is how we learn from the day we start in the temple, we learn by watching one another. So to me, it's not about I'm confident and someone else isn't. It's about seeing that, being inspired by that in one another and learning from that. Oh, I can do that, too. It's just such a wonderful, humble practice in that way. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you, Stephanie.

[54:58]

I would just say I remember very early on in Zen practice, I had some particular problem. I can't remember what it was, but I went to Ron, who was one of the, you know, senior practice leaders, and told him about it. And, you know, in practice discussion, he said, you know, and he said, how long have you been practicing? And I said, and then he said, oh, yeah, I remembered that happening at that point in practice. And I just can't tell you how helpful that was. I mean, I just want to encourage people to talk to those who have been practicing for a long time. There are people I go to who have, you know, the experience and the patience, the kindness to coach us and to say, oh, yeah, I went through that. And here's what I did. Try this.

[56:11]

And this is what we're all here to do with each other. I'll ask a question. We have a question here from Joe Buckner. Hi, Joe. Hi, Susan. So is that a fun trick? You know, in retrospect, it was really fun. Yeah. And even some parts of, you know, actually a lot of parts of it, yes, were fun. But, you know, maybe the greater point is it was a mix. When I came back and someone asked me, how was your trip? I think it was Carol.

[57:12]

And I said, well, it was a mix. So are you prepared for that when you go out? You're kind of thinking this kind of thing might come up or is it kind of a total surprise? Honestly, I didn't think that would come up. I mean, you know, I'm always prepared for mostly it's weather, you know, like getting caught in a lightning storm or, or, you know, a bear shows up at your campsite, but yeah, I hadn't thought about being stuck that way ever. So that was, that's good. Thank you. Thanks. Thank you, Joe. We have one last question, I would guess from Sue Osher. Please go ahead, Sue. Hi, Sue. Hi, Susan. I just love this talk. It's been so meaningful and moving and fun for me. I started reading Kathy Gussweit's

[58:16]

50 Things That Aren't My Fault, which is a very funny and very, and a book full of suffering with exactly the kind of not world shaking, but daily things that scare us or scare me. You know, the embarrassing things like going into a dressing room and trying on a bathing suit that has existed for women since the beginning of swimming and bathing suits, or going into the ladies room and being totally defeated by the automatic water or toilet flush or hand washing that they don't recognize you as a human being. And it's like the other side of life threatening, but totally life unaffirming habits of mind. And I really appreciate your talk as a way of reminding and practicing with what's the choice point here when those little things,

[59:24]

those naggy little things happen. And so thank you for reminding us. Well, thank you for those examples. You know, the more we can get in touch with our habit energy, the more we can access choices, right? Thank you.

[59:41]

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