We are fortunate to have Diane Rosetta with us this morning. And she's kind of a special speaker here because she began practice here in 1979, a year after we moved from White Way. And I remember her practice had a bright, enthusiastic edge to it. I know that coming to morning zazen, which I think then was at five, was really important to her, so much so that she would take naps, she was a teacher, is a teacher, she would take naps in her car during lunch hour. And she plunged in, and I know that she was Sashin director here, and maybe some other offices too, I don't remember that. Tenzin. Tenzin. And so it's very nice to have her back.

[01:03]

At some point, she made contact with Shara Joko Beck and joined Joko Beck's Sangha in San Diego and is now one of Joko Beck's Dharma Heirs and has her own sitting group or community in Piedmont on Snake Road. Well, I'd like to thank everyone for being here today and mainly making it possible for me to be sitting in this endo again. When I first started sitting, we were sitting across the way there in that little room that I guess sat about 16 people and was part of the demolition of this building and getting it ready and sitting the very first Sesshin, which was a Rohatsu Sesshin. And then we moved in for the session and had to move out after the session because we had to finish the floors.

[02:10]

Nevertheless, it's nice to be here and to see a lot of strange faces and a lot of faces that I know. Someone recently told me a story about this Navy ship that was out on the high seas. And this ship was filled with a lot of important brass, you know, big, big brass, top brass people on what they considered a very important mission. And it was late at night, very, very foggy. And they're traveling along, and the sailor whose job it is to keep watch saw this light signal off in the distance. and it was flashing the signal that said, move aside. His orders are, you never veer off course, you just stay on course to your destination.

[03:17]

So he signaled back on his little light, you move aside. The signal came back, move aside. So we did this a few times and figured something's up here. So we called the captain. And the captain came down and he said, send the signal. This is a US Navy ship. Move aside. So he clearly did that. And the signal came back. Move aside. And this went on for a while. And finally, there's a lot of commotion at this point. And the admiral in the top brass on this mission comes down. And he says, give me that. that signaler, the light, and he says, he flashes the signal that says, look here, I'm a U.S. Admiral on a U.S. Navy ship on a very important mission, you must move aside.

[04:19]

And the signaler came back and said, I'm a lighthouse. We like this story. It is basically the fundamental human condition that we're all on our own course that we think is very, very important and life is going to go a certain way and be a certain way and don't get in my way. It's as if we're In a way, as if we're in a dream, in a definite sense. A dream about the way we need to be, the way others need to be, the way the conditions of life need to be.

[05:19]

And when life comes along, it just is it. I mean, life doesn't come along, it's always there. But when there's rocks, when there's illness, When there is somebody get in front of me in the freeway and I don't like it because I'm in a rush. When our kids don't do what we want them to do, the things we think they should be doing. When we lose our job. When our partner isn't quite the way we think they should be or leaves us, whatever. That's the rocky shore, and we want to avoid it. We want to avoid the pain of that. We all do, every single one of us. I don't know anyone who doesn't want to avoid pain, be it physical pain, emotional pain, whatever kind of pain.

[06:27]

So we all create some kind of a little safe cocoon, dream, whatever you want to call it, as a way of escaping that. At our center, we have something we recite quite often. We call it the Four Practice Principles. And it goes something like this. Caught in the self-centered dream, only suffering. Holding to self-centered thoughts, exactly the dream. Each moment, life as it is, the only teacher. Being just this moment, compassion's way. caught in a self-centered dream. We're all caught.

[07:37]

Why? Why do you think we're caught in this dream that is just suffering? Can't hear me back? Okay. And why do we hold, hold on to this dream? And what makes it self-centered? I guess to a certain extent maybe to a large extent. The problem is that it's very difficult to trust the universe, to trust life, to just trust things, to just be the way they are, to unfold from moment to moment.

[08:48]

It's very difficult to do that. We can't will ourselves to do it. We can't push ourselves to do it. We can't let go of our holdings. The more we try to let go, the more important that thing becomes. We don't do any of that, letting go. We can't make ourselves trust. We can read all kinds of books, and we can listen to all kinds of talks, and we can go to all kinds of workshops, and we can try this teacher, and that teacher, and this practice, and that practice. But basically, there is no system for learning how to do that. So what do we do? Here we are, caught in this dream. Well, I think the first thing is to realize that, to see it, to be willing, to be open to it. To the fact is, I don't like this.

[09:52]

It's okay not to like something. It's okay to be afraid. It's okay to to realize that you're running away from something. It's okay to realize, I'm angry, that I'm jealous. In fact, once we can do that, we're on our way. Once we can just for a second open up to that reality, you see, we're acknowledging that light off in the distance. The light is saying, Life! Rocks! Life! Life! Life! So whatever that is, be it, as I say, someone cutting us off on the freeway or we're rushing in the supermarket, it seems like everybody decides that they've got to get to the supermarket and get their loaf of bread and quarter milk before they get home the exact same time I do.

[11:00]

Only, what I've got to do is more important, so how dare them? But to just for a second, even if it's just for a split second, to realize that I've got a self-centered investment in here. That's the moment when I see that light. That's the moment when I understand that there's rocks. Not that the rocks are bad, it's just that they're there. But for some reason, And the reason is basically, because we're human, as I say, it's very difficult to acknowledge our own pain, our own whatever that makes us less than perfect.

[12:04]

Very difficult. Why do I need to be perfect? Well, see, that's the dream. I need to make myself perfect, and whatever that image is, for me, for some people it might be being very loving and caring, perfect in that way. For another person it might be being very learned. For another person it might be whatever. We all have our little images that we create, our little self-made, self-centered dream about who we are. And we believe to the core that we need to be that way. So much, that if anyone even suggests that this might be a dream, wait a minute, hands off. I need to be this way, to the core, because it's my safety net.

[13:08]

It's my safety zone. Life without the dream is too threatening. It's too scary. I have nothing to hold on to. Nothing. Most the ship can do is really ride the waves. The ship thinks it's on, it has an idea of being on a very special mission. It doesn't have time to do anything else like pay attention to rocks As I say, we believe we need the dream to the core, and that's why it's self-centered. Very, very threatening to even think about looking at it.

[14:09]

As I say, we can't let it go, but we can certainly take a look at it. What creates this dream? What is this dream? What does it look like? What is its blueprint, so to speak? Once we start doing that, we find there may be a moment or two where we're not caught by it. Might be just for a split second, not caught by it. Just riding the waves, just bouncing against the rocks. Just, why did I gotta get out of my way? I gotta get home. I gotta get dinner on the table. just this, just this, just this. See, the just this is each moment, life as it is.

[15:19]

The just this is nothing special. It might be The hum of whatever is humming there in the corner. The sound of someone scratching their face. The slight tinge in the eyes from the smoke of the incense burning. The sensation in the nostrils. Distant car. What am I going to do this afternoon? I've got some Christmas shopping to do. What should I buy so-and-so? Thinking, thinking, thinking. I could be churning in the stomach, nervous about something. Sometimes we get the idea that just this needs to be something special.

[16:34]

The wanting to make it something special is part of the dream. I need to make it special. We can have a lot of fun with that one, too. That's the only teacher. That's the only true teacher. Each moment, life as it is, the only teacher. And just for a second, being just this moment, if just for a second, we can be in touch with our own fear, our own anger, our own whatever, Then for that split second, we're open. The dream has dropped away. There is no self. Then we can be open to the pain of others, to the anger of others, to the suffering of the world.

[17:49]

That's compassion's way. But it's only when we face it within ourselves can we open to the world's pain and suffering. So once again, caught in the self-centered dream, only suffering, holding to self-centered thoughts, exactly the dream. Each moment, life as it is, the only teacher, being just this moment, compassion's way. We come to face ourselves in this way. And maybe we come to experience ourselves in a way that's without the dream.

[19:00]

There's a poem by Derek Walcott. It's one of my favorite poems, and I'd like to end by reading this, and then I'll open up for some discussion. It's called, Love After Love. The time will come when with elation you will greet yourself arriving at your own door in your own mirror and each will smile at each other's welcome and say, sit here, eat. You'll love again the stranger who is yourself. Give bread, give wine, give back your heart to itself to the stranger who has loved you your whole life, whom you have ignored for another, and knows you by heart.

[20:19]

Take down the love letters from the bookshelf. Throw away the photographs. Get rid of the desperate notes. Peel your own image from the mirror. Feast on your life. This is what, from my point of view, what practice is. Learning how to sit and feast on life. Difficult. Very simple, as my teacher always says. Very, very simple, but very, very difficult. Okay, I'm going to stop there. And Mei-Li actually asked me to talk a little bit about our center. I think if you have specific questions about our center, I'd be happy to answer it rather than trying to describe something in a very general way.

[21:26]

Or if there's anything else you would like to discuss or questions. Yes. to me, gave me words from an experience I've had once, of talking to someone that I was quite close to, many conflicting feelings, and being engaged in the conversation and feeling cut off, not heard, and recognizing that, as the hair went up on the back of the neck. And later in the day, the conversation finished later in the day, and many times this would have gone into a fight, into a very unpleasant confrontation.

[22:34]

Later in the day, this person came around, we met up with each other again, came around and said, oh, I wanted to apologize because I realized I cut you off this morning and I really didn't listen. It was just, it was magic. Yeah, sometimes it's magic and sometimes it's not. But, yeah, I hear stories like that a lot. I do a lot of telephone work with people. And, you know, there's people living all over the country who aren't as blessed as we are in the Bay Area, especially we have so many places to practice. I mean, it's like a smorgasbord. take a choice to go here one day and here another day or whatever, but there are people like in Omaha, Nebraska, like there's one of everything. There's one woman telling me that there's one health food store and there's one this and there's one chiropractor and one acupuncturist. I hear stories like that, that, well, I went into the store, and this woman always gives me a hard time, and I just, just for a split second, I was just able to feel my gut go like that, just clench, my teeth clench.

[23:50]

Just let myself be with that. Just breathe in and breathe out. Just be with that. And I found I didn't have to say anything. And you know something? She was just I could see the expression on her face change. When I walked in, it was like this. So, sometimes and quite often that does happen, and other times it doesn't. Thank you for sharing that. Yes. that ends up on the rocks or hits the rocks or whatever.

[25:10]

Is that a dream or is that a vision? Yeah, yeah. Well, I think if I understand the question correctly, you're talking about two types of dreams. One is the goals people have in life. You know, I'm going to go to school and I'm going to get my doctorate and I hope to start up I hope to be a biologist or something, or whatever. It can be a career goal, it can be a family, a goal for your family, whatever. And then another type, and we call those loosely, we use the word, well, it's my dream, or it's my goal, or it's my vision in life. And then I think there's, The other way of looking at dream as some kind of altered state, not altered state, but another state of consciousness, the types of dreams that... I'm not familiar with how Gary Snyder talks about it, but I know in terms of certain Indian cultures and so forth, dreams are really seen as a reality, another way of being.

[26:27]

There's certain yogic practices that deal with dreams. I'm not talking about it in that perspective, but let me take it from the point of view of a personal vision in life, because I think that more closely relates to the story of the ship having a destination and so forth. Not at all does it mean that we don't have goals. Absolutely! But see, there's a big difference when I feel I need to go from here to here, and then I'll have the perfect life, then I'll be happy, then everything will be okay. Really, what the issue is, is what I do from here to here. And there'll always be rocks, whatever, along the way, things that stand in our way. What do we do when those things stand in the way of our goal? Do we just kind of plow through and push push things aside, don't pay attention to other people, to whatever the situation is, or do we stop and experience it along the way?

[27:33]

It's the holding to the self-centered part of the vision. The vision is fine. You can have that. It's fine. But the holding, that I must have it or else it means the end. Retke has a poem, I don't remember the whole poem, but one of the lines, one of my favorite lines is, I learn by going where it is I have to go. Does it mean that we don't have a sense that I'm going to walk from here to here, but as I go, am I going to miss the experience? You know, it's like when you drive in a car sometimes, You take this route the same time over and over and over and you find yourself, how did I get here? I don't even remember the ride. It's a little scary sometimes because you wonder where you were when you're driving.

[28:39]

But it's the journey itself. Children, little children are just wonderful at this. You know, you see a little toddler who will be sitting on this side of the room and, well, really want to go over there to get that ball under there. But on the way, if you watch them, You know, they're all over the place, experimenting with pieces of lint on the floor, and seeing what that tastes like, and, you know, eventually they make it over there. But it's a wonderful journey on the way. We forget how to do that. Get over there. Why? Because once I get there, then I'm going to be secure. Then I'm going to be happy. Then I'll have blah, [...] blah. And we believe it. So it catches us. It catches us. and caught by it and we suffer. Yeah. I will defend myself or defend my view.

[30:06]

You know, there's a part of myself that, one reason or another, I just don't want to let go of it. You know, so, this seems to be the critical test, you know, in life. I guess, you know, in a certain sense, I will defend myself and then there's kind of a sense of failure about that, a sense of... The failure is in not letting go? Yeah, or not being able to bring my practice to the moment. Can you make yourself let go? No, I think it's more of just being able to be present rather than defending a view. So I will opt for defending a view rather than just to try to be present and maybe not move like it wasn't, to not move in, not putting a mind or a planet into motion. So what does it feel to not be present? What does that feel like? specific than just uncomfortable?

[31:09]

Can you give me, say, for example, a bodily sensation or maybe some thoughts that might be coming up? Well, usually I'm defending something, so I feel anger. Anger. OK. OK. That's right there. That's the rocks. Anger. And if you can just notice that, be it at the moment it's happening or even a day later. at whatever point you pick up that in this situation anger is present, just anger. Label the anger and then offer the invitation to your body to show itself. By that I mean, is there any bodily sensation that goes along with anger? I can't make myself go look for it, but I can offer the invitation. So much of practice is really just offering an invitation.

[32:11]

We really think we are doing something that we have to let go, that we have to experience. And when we talk about it, you know, describing it in a talk or even writing about it in a book, we're using language that can only go so far. But the actual experiencing, it's more like we bring ourselves to the door. and push the door open, and then what's in that room? I don't know. I don't know, and that's scary to do. But if I make it my... If I decide that I'm going to live my life in such a way that I'm going to try and be more awake to these rocks in life, and my response to them, without making myself be a certain way when these rocks come up, but just being awake to how I am, then I might learn something. I might learn that I don't usually discover what I was doing until a week later or a month later.

[33:17]

That's okay. There's no timetable on this. Or I may realize that, gee, I have these reoccurring thoughts all the time, or I have this thing, as soon as someone gets a little pushy with me, I do this. I change the subject, or I come really back at them. I go on the offensive before they're going to get me. Or I kind of just be the innocent, helpless little person, or whatever. We all have our ways, our little systems of working. Basically, it's all a system of self-protection. But not to make it go away. That's not the point at all. The point is simply to wake up to it, to see it. Ah, didn't acknowledge the light blinking. Ding, ding, ding. Oh, yeah. Well, that's interesting. Of course, it sounds, again, very simple. But what comes in? There's a big judge who comes in and says, you're bad for doing that.

[34:19]

You shouldn't be doing that. You shouldn't be thinking that way. Look at you. There you go again. You've labeled this thought, or you've watched yourself go on the offensive a zillion times, and you're still doing it. Yeah, the light's still flashing. Fact is, it flashes our whole life. It goes on our whole life. We just become more awake to it. And the more awake we become to it, the less caught it seems. It becomes much more transparent. Yeah, Linda? When you talked about trust, letting go, I thought about Yesterday, hearing some recordings from the Truth Commission in South Africa, they did this amazing thing there. Anyway, and they said that sometimes the testimony is so intense that just recently Bishop Desmond Tutu, who was presiding

[35:30]

burst into tears on the TV screen, or sometimes people just start yelling and they have to have a recess just wailing about the pain. It's pretty amazing. But anyway, two accounts yesterday. One was a mother who got the details of how her 17-year-old son was blown up in the street commission, and another one was somebody testifying about their torture. So what's the real question there, Linda? You mean the personal, my question? Yeah, because that's all you can deal with. Otherwise, it's just intellectual thoughts. What do I feel is being threatened?

[36:33]

What's Linda being threatened with? What happens if I trust? Do I dare? Do I dare? I identify with those stories because I think that somebody's going to kill and torture me, or I at least imagine that. Of course, I'm not in that situation, so maybe I don't have a... it's not so realistic for me to try to imagine my way into that mother's situation. Right. That's the point. It's always going to come back. What is it in here? Not that we are not concerned with some of the atrocities that are going on. Of course we're concerned. But we've got to understand my own terror before we can really, really do anything.

[37:38]

And it's amazing when we do that. how it does have an effect, that we may don't even have the slightest clue how it affects the world. I was listening to a physicist on the radio the other day, and he was talking about light, and he was saying that all light in the universe is interconnected, and that every time we even light this candle, or turn the lights on overhead. It has an effect on all light in the universe. That's an incredible statement of interconnectedness, interbeing. It's an incredible statement. It's no different for us

[38:45]

Now, I use these words, I say that. Again, you can hear it, you can read it, you can talk about it. But you can also experience that. Just for a split second. Because we're human, it closes and it's gone. But every time we are truly with the terror Rage the jealousy just for a second Then we're in touch with the terror and rage and jealousy Throughout the universe throughout the world Anyway, I don't want to go too far with that. There's more things to say about that Yes It really touched me because I always sense a feeling of separation.

[39:53]

I have been socialized, or I have been separated from myself. And I enjoy being in the mirror because it happened to me once that I looked at myself in the mirror and I discovered my gaze for the first time. You speak up a little bit if you can. I was talking about the feeling of separation, and this feeling of separation that I have experienced for many years, even the separation of myself. And the poem that was read, the sitting with yourself, and the image of the mural, it touched me because I have listened to it. And I felt that base with me. It was a great feeling of happiness and sadness at the same time.

[40:55]

But it was a feeling of communion. And I feel that if I'm not united with myself, if I don't feel this interconnection, And sometimes that image that comes back is quite horrifying It's not quite splendid You've got A little two more minutes. Any questions about the Bay Zen Center? Could you just talk about it? I don't mind if I talk about it generally, because I kind of go on and on.

[41:56]

But any specific questions I think is, yeah. Well, I will if no one has a specific question. Does anyone have a specific? Where is it? It's in Montclair section of Oakland, off Highway 13. And it's actually, the Zendo is the lower portion of my house. We're a very small center. The Zendo is about half the size of this room. Maybe even a little less. Someone else have their hand up? Yeah? We have about 37 members. Not all people local, however. We have quite a few affiliate members, people who live at a distance and come to sessions and talk with me by phone. These are basically people who live in areas that there isn't a practice place close by. Yes? God, I need to write six books and then not be able to do it.

[43:13]

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think mostly you probably noticed in terms of form that we do less of the formal ritual type things, although we do quite a bit. In fact, you know, coming here today it was just very natural to do things, and the Zendo, I mean, we do the same thing, but sometimes people call and say, well, I hear Joko has done away with all kinds of forms and everything, and I say, if you come walk into our Zendo, it's going to look like any other Zendo. We have sabatons on the floor, and black mats, and we bow, and we do all that stuff. There isn't any short description I can give. There are several people here today.

[44:15]

Linda, for example, practices with us. And this has a long history of practicing here and at Green Gulch, and it's still involved, right? At Green Gulch and here, whatever. And I noticed a few other faces of people who have sat with us who are here now. So, it's a... I don't know, you have to kind of try it and tell me what it tastes like. Yes? What's your basic practice schedule? We have morning sittings on Mondays and Wednesdays from 6 to 7.15. And on Tuesdays and Thursdays, evening sittings from 7.15 to 9. And then every other Saturday, we have a half-day schedule. It's the first, third, and fifth Saturday of the month. And that's from 8.30 to noon. And that's very similar to what you have here. Only we don't have a work period.

[45:15]

It's just a really short cleaning period before we start for 20 minutes, and I give a talk. And then we have sessions. There's a session about every other month, and a zazenkai on the months that there is no session. That's a one-day sitting from six in the morning to eight at night. So it's a fairly full schedule. Anyone else? Okay, yes, one last one. I don't know if that's a... I want to make it clear that I'm not saying that our dream world isn't perfect.

[46:49]

Well, I was saying the dream world isn't perfect, but whenever we see the world, it's an imperfect seeing. Well, I don't even know about that. But I agree with you about the language part. It's very difficult, and mostly we can only intuit or experience, and then once we put it into language, unless we're a great master like Dogen, who just can, you know, who has that ability to just use the language in such a way that it's, you know, it comes very close to describing what we're talking about. But it's not like there is a reality and then an illusion. That's not what I'm getting at at all with this dream. And I understand that's confusing. Well, what the heck is she talking about? I could get off now into a whole other talk and I'm already over time.

[47:59]

Anyway, I'll leave it at that. But I understand what you're saying. I appreciate it.

[48:06]

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