it could be said that we have been contemplating the Buddha Samadhi. We have been contemplating the Samadhi of Buddha activity. We have been contemplating Zazen. In this samadhi, all beings are practicing, and some of them are perceptibly going to Buddha for refuge. Some of you may have seen somebody go, you may have perceived somebody going to Buddha for refuge.

[01:13]

What's not so easy to see is Buddha going to you for refuge. But in the Buddha Samadhi, beings go to refuge in Buddha, and Buddha goes for refuge in beings. beings go for refuge in dharma, which they might be able to perceive, and dharma goes for refuge in beings that may be imperceptible. The perceptible practice meets the imperceptible practice in the Buddha Samadhi. In Samadhi, our perceptions appear

[02:22]

as usual, but the environment of concentrated mind, open mind, flexible mind, calm mind, the perceptions maybe are more fully present. And in that full presence, there is the revelation that the perceptions are imperceptible. Did I say the perception? There is a revelation that perception is not perception. The more we can be with perceptions, the more holy we can be with them, the more fully present, the more fully we let them be what they are, the more it's revealed that they are otherwise. But otherwise is imperceptible.

[03:31]

Otherwise is infinite. But the infinite otherwise around everything is always there. And we are always moving within Buddha activity. And there's been emphasis on being compassionate to all the perceptions the perceptions we have of our own difficulty, the perceptions we have of other people. Being compassionate with those perceptions and being compassionate with them helps us enter samadhi with them. And in samadhi, we see the pivoting of everything with what it's not. And we, I said see, but you know, we realize the way I go to Buddha for refuge and the way Buddha goes to me for refuge, the way that happens is imperceptible.

[04:53]

And yet the imperceptible relationship can be realized. And part of compassion, part of being compassionate with perceptions and feelings and emotions and colors and sounds and smells, part of being compassionate is generosity, but another part is practicing ethics, to be ethical with our perceptions. And one of our, in Zen, one of our other schools too, but in Zen we really emphasize the precept, the preceptual, the ethical discipline of forms and ceremonies. Forms and ceremonies are opportunities for ethical discipline.

[06:00]

they're opportunities to develop compassion with our perceptions. Practicing compassion with a form or a ceremony helps us practice that form, that ceremony, wholeheartedly. Or it's almost the same thing. Wholehearted practice with a form is compassionately embracing and sustaining the form. So we say, you know, the precept of embracing and sustaining forms and ceremonies, the first pure precept of bodhisattva's when we embrace and sustain a form wholeheartedly, compassionately, we do not cling to the form.

[07:11]

We do not try to get anything from the practice. And when we practice the form in that way, our perception of the form becomes not our perception of the form. The form is revealed as not the form. And then we see how the form goes to us for refuge and we go to the form for refuge. We go to the precepts for refuge and the precepts go to us for refuge. We go to the forms and ceremonies for refuge, and the forms and ceremonies come to us for refuge. We go to the Zen tradition for refuge, the Zen tradition comes to us for refuge. There's no Zen tradition floating around, not taking refuge in us.

[08:19]

And there's really no us not taking in the Zen tradition, but since we don't understand that, we need to take refuge in the Zen tradition. And as we wholeheartedly take refuge in the Zen tradition, we receive the revelation that the Zen tradition takes refuge and lives through us. But how that works in its fullness, how Buddha is taking refuge in us all day long, is imperceptible. but it's still happening all day long. It's not even happening. It still is so all day long. And our taking refuge in Buddha may be somewhat sporadic, like we may do it once a day or twice a day. But Buddha takes refuge in us all day long. But it's imperceptible how Buddhas are doing that. How Buddhas use us to live is imperceptible. How we use Buddhas to live is somewhat perceptible.

[09:27]

And again, one of the things about these forms of ceremonies is that others are also using them. Others are using them as a way to take refuge. Others are using them as a way to see that the precepts are taking refuge in them. So we can watch each other work with the same kind of similar perceptions. And we can notice how we're doing them together. And we can notice, maybe we can notice that we ourselves are trying to get something from the practice of the forms. maybe we can notice that, which is good to notice it. And when we notice that we're trying to get something from these forms, that we're trying to get something from taking refuge, when we notice that, we might be able to say, oh, wow, silly boy. I'm sorry.

[10:31]

But sometimes we don't notice. But others notice, maybe. They see we're trying to get something out of ringing a bell or doing a bow or serving a meal or listening to a talk or being on time. They see something like that. They perceive it. They may be wrong. Maybe we're not trying to get anything, but it looks like we are in their perceptions. So then they can say to us, could I ask a question? And we say, what? Well, maybe I won't. Go ahead, ask it. Is it really okay? Okay. Were you trying to get anything out of ringing that bell? Yeah, I was.

[11:35]

You're right. I'll look at that. And then with their help of helping you look to see if you're trying to get something out of this practicing compassion or whatever, in this form or that form, you may watch and say, oh yeah, I think I am. And you go back and say, thank you for asking me. I didn't notice I was, but after you asked me, I noticed I was. Thank you. And the person might say, when you just said thank you to me, were you trying to get anything out of that? No. And you might look and say, I don't think so. I think it just was just thank you. That's it. I wasn't trying to make you think I was a grateful person or whatever. Yeah, I think it just came out of, I don't know where, I don't know how that happened that I actually just said thank you. And the person says, you know, I think you're right.

[12:39]

I think you weren't trying to get anything. It's wonderful, isn't it? Occasionally to do something and just do it. It can happen. But we do need, in order for this to happen and on a regular basis, in order for this to become our main practice of wholeheartedness, we do need others to question us. Questioning ourselves is good, yes, but we also need others to question us. And it's hard for them to question us if they don't know anything about what we're doing. I mean, they can still question us, but If you watch somebody do something you don't know anything about, you don't know what it would look like, necessarily, if they're doing it trying to get something, or if they're doing it just to do it.

[13:42]

But if you know the activity from you do it also, you can kind of tell the difference between doing it and doing it to get something. You can kind of see. Because you've also noticed in yourself, I just did it, and I did it to try to get something. So because we use the same forms, we can help each other. And one of the ways we help each other is with the form. So people are trying to do the form of pick something up, you know, and then something unusual happens to the form. And you say, what was that about? And, you know, how come the thing's upside down? And the person says, who asked you? What difference does it make to you? Or it's none of your business about why it's upside down. Jeez. Stupid Zen Center. And when we do something in an unusual way and somebody questions us, when we do it in an unusual way, then they might wonder, what's going on?

[14:55]

I mean, did you do that on purpose? Did you think that was the way to do it? Did you forget? You know, because it's usually like this or like this, if it's like this, we kind of go, oh. Oh, what's that? And it's easy to notice. It's different when you see it a certain way over and over. And somebody does it in an unusual way and go, oh. Wow. What's that? And then you can ask the person about it, and then the person can notice how they feel about being asked. But if you didn't know this is the usual way, if you see this way, you don't have nothing, no question comes up in you. Could you bring me that bowl, please? Thank you.

[16:01]

So, in tea ceremony, the person who makes the tea, there's a, this is a tea bowl, but there's also another bowl that's a little wider that's used for, you know, the wastewater, like where they clean the bowl and pour the water in this wastewater bowl. So, And then after the tea is drunk, they clean the belt bowl again and pour the tea, the wastewater into that wastewater bowl. And the wastewater bowl is called a kensui in Japanese. And the way you carry it is like this. See? See? So you bring it in and set it down. The person who's making the tea brings it in like this. See? It sets it down.

[17:03]

And one time somebody brought it in like this. This is the way you usually carry it. The person brought it in like this. Can you see? See? They reversed it. And, you know, just like everybody in the tea room just sort of like went... It was so funny. It was like the funniest thing of all time. And it wasn't derisive. It was just like, wow. And then how amazing it is that turning it 180 degrees is so funny. And then the fact that that's funny is funny. And then the person gets to see, were they attached to like people not laughing at them or whatever?

[18:11]

So because of the forms, we notice something unusual, and then we have an opportunity to say, can I ask you a question? Now, of course, sometimes people don't say it that way. They're not so kind the way they ask. But let's just say we kindly ask, can I ask you a question? And they say, yes. And you say, you just did that form that way. Did you mean to do it that way? And sometimes the person says, Oh no, thank you." And sometimes again they say, you know, who asked you to ask me about anything? And so this way we help each other find if there's any attachment or gaining idea around the form. And if we're actually in this Buddha Samadhi, We actually welcome everything, including we welcome people questioning us, calling us into question, calling us into doubt, calling us to be accountable.

[19:24]

We can go with that if we're in the samadhi. So the forms are ways we can check and verify that we're in the samadhi. And oftentimes the check shows that we're not. And then we say, oh, great, now I know. Now I know I'm not. I mean, now I know I'm kind of trying to get something. Really, we are in the samadhi, but if you try to get something in the samadhi, it's like you make yourself an exile in the place where you already are. We actually are already in the samadhi all day long, but if we try to get anything, if the slightest trying to get something And it's like that kind of puts us in the realm of exile. It quarantines us, as we say now. So I guess I'll just expand on that a little bit, which is

[20:30]

the teachers in the Zen centers also, in order for them to practice ethical discipline, they need to be called into question. But again, the teachers and the other members of the community are practicing forms which then can be questioned, but also it helps if we tell people that we would like them to question us. So we have a form, so there's an opportunity, but still people may not even ask unless they think we want it. So it's good to tell people in general and specifically, like look one person in the eye and say, would you please call me into question about my practice of ethics? when you see some opportunity. And please call me into question respectfully.

[21:41]

Please do it compassionately. But please question me. Questioning me is part of compassion. And then the person might say, sure, I'll be happy to do that. And they might not say, and would you do it for me? One time when I was at a monastery called Tassajara, there was somebody who I had some questions for him, and that's why I asked to talk to him. And I started out by telling him various things that I, shortcomings in my practice. And he listened to me and pretty much agreed with everything I said. You know? And that was the end of the conversation. He didn't say, do you have anything you'd like to say to me? But I felt like I couldn't say anything to him unless he asked me to.

[22:44]

If I said, now may I ask you to tell me? I just felt like he didn't want me to ask him that. to invite him to tell me something that some shortcomings in his practice. Yeah. So in the short term, such sad things happen is that people do not want feedback. They say, I mean, they say they don't. So then they don't get it, so then their ethics practice doesn't get challenged, doesn't get questioned, and therefore it kind of wilts. Now if it gets questioned and you push it away, it also wilts. If you invite it and accept it, it blooms.

[23:48]

So sometimes people have questioned me in groups And some other people later told them, now you shouldn't question a teacher, that's disrespectful. And when I hear about that I say, no, thank you. It was good that you questioned me. So, please question me. Please call me to account. Respectfully, please. Kindly. And so people do come to see me and they say, do you want some feedback? And I appreciate the question. And then I sort of get ready and try to get real relaxed and open. And then I say, yes, and then they deliver it. And it almost always works out fine. You know, the magician, the escape artist, Houdini, he had a thing where he said, people can punch me in the stomach as hard as they want.

[24:56]

And so, and the people did, they came and punched him and he was fine. One time some people came and punched him without asking. So he wasn't ready. And it ruptured his, I think, his spleen or something. And it got infected, and he died from that infection. He had a ruptured spleen, plus he was diving in really cold water. A combination of those two. He died, I think, of pneumonia. But, you know, if we give people feedback, it's really good to, like, help them, you know, get ready for it and really want it. And so with that preparation we can really help each other. And teachers of Buddhism, again, don't just get enlightened or realize the Buddha Samadhi and then stop practicing ethics.

[26:10]

if they realize the samadhi in a genuine way, they will continue, they will be happy to continue practicing ethics, even more happy than before. Practicing ethics is a joy when you do it. When you don't, it's not so joyful. Not practicing ethics is, especially if you commit, is not a happy situation. But to commit and practice the Bodhisattva precepts is a great joy. and we need help. And if you practice ethics, practicing ethics does realize the Buddha Samadhi. Practicing ethics is the revelation of the Buddha Samadhi. And that practice is called into question. It's not like, okay, you practice ethics in such a wholehearted way, you realize Buddhist Samadhi, so no more need for you to be questioned. That's not correct.

[27:16]

All the more people just running from all directions to question your practice because they love you so much. They think you're so beautiful, they want to ask you questions about your practice. and you're so happy to receive all their questions because you've realized what the precepts are. So in other words, questioning teachers is something that some teachers around the world are not encouraging, and I would say watch out for that. If a teacher can't be questioned, just, you know, as usual, be very careful and be very compassionate. But also, don't give car keys to drunk people. Dear friend, you know, I don't think you should drive tonight.

[28:25]

You've had too much to drink. Or, dear teacher, I think you should go sit down over there for a little while because you don't seem to be open for questions anymore. So until you're open for questions, maybe it'd be good for you not to do any teaching. And then if the teacher doesn't say thank you for you asking them to stop teaching until they're ready to be questioned... then you might say, oh, please, please, please go sit down. Just be more and more compassionate until they realize that if they're not going to practice the ethics, they shouldn't be teaching Buddhism. However, if they want to go back and start practicing ethics, then they can be a teacher. And if you want to practice ethics, you are a teacher. I mean, if you want to and you practice, you are a teacher. If you don't practice it, you're teaching what not practicing it is, which is called not a teacher.

[29:29]

So help your teachers and help other people help their teachers by finding skillful ways to question them. And I've seen cases and I've heard of cases where the teachers do not seem to be welcoming it. And this is like a great opportunity to try to like help people start questioning everybody, including the teachers, especially the teachers now. And some would say, why do teachers get special attention? Okay, okay, maybe not especially teachers. Maybe especially everybody. Be kind to everybody. by asking them questions in a really kind, careful, respectful way. You know, kind of like, look up to them, even if they're a brand new student.

[30:40]

Look up to them and say, could I ask you a question? And they say, yes. Did you know that we usually don't wear shoes in the Zendo? Oh, really? Oh, okay, thank you. People at Zen Center are so helpful. You know what they did? I went into the Zendo with my shoes on, and they asked, they told me that, you know, they were very kindly, in this really sweet way, they told me that they don't usually wear the shoes in the Zendo. It was like the kindest thing I had experienced in a long time, the way they told me about that, that custom. Of course, sometimes it happens at Zen Center. Somebody wears their shoes in the Zen Center into the Zendo and somebody says, we don't wear shoes in the Zendo or don't wear shoes in the Zendo. That happens too sometimes. Maybe it's compassionate. I don't know. We'll have to see. The person might feel it.

[31:41]

Yeah, they said, don't wear shoes in the Zendo and it was so kind. It could be. I forgot my little clock. What time is it? 11.07. 11.07, that kind of rhymes, doesn't it? 11.07, 7.11. Does that rhyme? Does 11 rhyme with 7? Does it? Yes. Oh, yeah. So this is kind of a poetic moment. If anybody wants to question anybody... Do you want to question him? Okay. Okay. Oh, thank you, yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

[32:46]

Yeah. Constructed, unconstructed, compounded, uncompounded. So the Zen Center is a constructed silence zone, right? So we construct silence here. We say, noble silence. We say, you know, let's be quiet during this period of meditation. That's a constructed silence. It starts, goes on for a while, and stops. And then we also, yeah, and a constructed stillness. We go in to sit down and we sit still. It's a constructed stillness. It starts, it seems to start, and then it seems to stop. When the bell rings, people get up and move. So it's a constructed stillness. Constructed stillness and silence are temporary for the length of the construction project. And then they're not ceaseless.

[33:48]

But there's also an unconstructed stillness and an unconstructed silence, which humans don't make that silence. We live in it, but we don't construct it. So it's ceaseless. So we live in an uncompounded, unconstructed silence and stillness. And in there, this Buddha activity is going on. But all the silence and stillness constructions are going on in that silence. unconstructed silence and stillness. Same with the precepts. There's constructed precepts in words and so on, which you receive on a certain date. But of course, those you never stop practicing. But they started at a certain point and then they go on. But there was an initiation, a beginning. But the unconstructed, uncompounded precepts have no beginning or end. And these two, the constructed stillness of the sashin, the constructed silence of the sashin is in resonance with the unconstructed.

[35:07]

Those are living together. The unconstructed is always with the constructed. The constructed comes and goes in the space of the unconstructed. And by wholeheartedly taken care of the constructed, we discover that the unconstructed was there all along. But if we don't give our full samadhi mind to the constructed, if we're not really there, we miss what is also there, which is not there. Wherever we are, there's also not wherever we are. And if we're completely wherever we are, we realize not wherever we are. So again, compassionately, wholeheartedly taking care of the constructed is the door to realizing the unconstructed. Does that address your question?

[36:13]

Do you have a further question? I do. A follow-up, please. So, unconstructedness, could we say it's unconditioned? I don't like the word unconditioned because everything has conditions. Even emptiness has conditions. Like the emptiness of form depends on form. So even emptiness is not independent. But emptiness is not constructed. But it is because of conditions, things are empty. So there's no emptiness without dependent co-arising. Or as you would say, there's no thoroughly established without the other dependent. So all phenomena like colors and sounds and pains and perceptions, they're dependent co-arisings. They arise dependent on conditions. But emptiness is also a dependent core arising.

[37:16]

It's just a dependent core arising which is the ultimate way dependent core arisings are. But it depends on dependent core arisings for its job to be done. Does that make sense? Yeah. So the word unconditioned, The word, there's a word called asamskrita, Sanskrit word, which means unmade, unconstructed. A means not, and samskrita means put together. So emptiness isn't constructed. The way things lack, you know, the way things lack any kind of independent existence, that's not constructed. And even emptiness, which is not constructed, also lacks inherent existence.

[38:17]

But things that are constructed, like colors and sounds and smells and thoughts and feelings, all those construct, they're put together. They are put together. they depend on conditions, and they're put together, and they're empty. Emptiness is not put together, but it also depends on conditions. So everything depends on conditions, forms and emptiness depend on conditions, but emptiness isn't put together, and forms are. So the compounded And the uncompounded, the compounded are put together. The uncompound is not put together. But both of them depend on conditions. So there's nirvana, for example, is not compounded. It's not something you put together. Samsara is something that's put together.

[39:28]

And Samsara and nirvana, constructed and unconstructed, or constructed and unconstructed, are inseparable and really identical. So I question the use of the word unconditioned because everything is other-dependent. everything depends on other things, and ultimate truth depends on conventional truth. Conventional truth is put together, ultimate truth is not. But there's no ultimate truth and certainly no realization of it without the conventional. Which means we have work to do on the conventional. And what's the work? Compassion. Anything else today? Yes. I have a question about the game.

[40:33]

One of the questions is whether the, what you're trying to say, that the world is like perfect, can't change, and whether it's just to get attention or psychological. It's how we practice, but just describe, like, there are conditions for everything, so why wouldn't I let it fade? Shouldn't I be trying to create the conditions that... Well, you can meditate or you can do meditation work and you can do other kinds of work. And the reason for doing your meditation work might be to create conditions that would bring benefit to all beings. That's the key point. It is possible that I would like to do something to bring benefit to you. without seeing that as a game. So now I can pass this bowl to Tim, and I can do this as a blessing.

[41:48]

And he might say, yeah, that was a blessing. What do you say? Thank you very much. Yeah. But I don't necessarily see that as a game. But it was a blessing. Now would you please pass it to Uri? And he sent it as a blessing. And I sent it to you through him as a blessing. I'm passing blessings to you. And it was really nice because with the aid of Tim, you know, it got to you more easily than me bending way over. It was really a blessed situation. But do I see it as a gain? I really don't. And that was wonderful, and I don't see that as a gain. But animals often are into gain. My body is very much into gain and loss. So I have to deal with the equipment that can be involved with gain and loss, but it is possible to just give someone something

[42:59]

and mean it as a blessing and not see it as a gain. So I do wish to create abundant conditions for blessings to beings. And I didn't mean that to be so poetic. But it was, wasn't it? But I didn't see it as a gain. And if I do see it as a gain, I may notice that when there's a gain, then there's a loss. Or when there's an improvement, there's a, what do you call it, a waste product. So no gain and loss, it's not like I'm trying to eliminate them, because that would also be an attempt to gain something. Would you pass the cup back, please? Now there I might have been trying to gain something. But if I do notice I was trying to gain the cup back so I can give it to somebody else, then I practice compassion with any gaining attempts I made.

[44:16]

But usually if I notice gain, I notice stress. But again, to try to get rid of the stress by getting rid of the gain, that's not compassion. Compassion says, okay, we've got somebody who's trying to gain something. Welcome, gainer. And you can be your gainer. All the gainers can come to the Zen Center where we're trying to learn how to give that up. Just like you let addicts come to Addicts Anonymous, right? They're welcome to come, even though we want them to get over that. Still, we don't have to see it as a gain. It is possible. Just recently, at Green Gulch, somebody was talking about hesitation and being careful. Like sometimes people hesitate when they're trying to be careful.

[45:20]

But it's possible to unhesitatingly be careful. And it's also possible to be careful in a hesitating way. But again I would say that it's also possible to unhesitatingly hesitate, to wholeheartedly hesitate, which isn't much of a hesitation. So Buddha activity is always pervading the situation, but we train to be wholehearted and we can notice, I'm trying to be careful and there's some hesitation in it, which is probably the hesitation probably comes in when I'm trying to be careful and trying to gain something by the carefulness. Does that make sense? I'm trying to be careful, but I'm trying to gain something like I'm trying to be careful and I'm trying to become a famous person for being careful.

[46:27]

And my carefulness is a little bit wobbly. Pardon? Pardon? Yes, that was a good example. Anything more you want to say besides that? Yeah, see, that's... I had my hand up first, and she can say that without trying to get me to call on her. Or... Yes? And she can say that without trying to gain anything. And so I can say, were you trying to gain anything? And she can look. Okay? And I'm not saying, well, yes, you did. Yes? Can we talk about ethics a bit? Oh, sure. Let's do that. Because ethics have some constructed sides to them.

[47:30]

Yes. So, for example, you know, Sometimes teachers consider their behavior not questionable, or even if you question them, there's disagreement about what ethical behavior was. So, for example, the other day, Yazan and I were going somewhere to a retreat place, and a new student was in the back seat. Yazan said something about a movie, and I had seen it, and I said, no, I really didn't like it. And the person at the back seat said to me, I can't believe you said that. I just can't believe it. And I felt I was being questioned, which is okay. And I said, oh, I'm sorry. I said that I didn't like the movie, or maybe I said I hated it. And the person said, you don't go to movies, do you? So the ethical bar was quite high for the person.

[48:34]

So how would you address an issue where the ethics themselves are, it's not a clear, they're not written in stone. Well, I don't know what to say first. There's two words. One is conversation. The other is question. what came to mind was recently, there was a, you probably, some of you may have seen it, you know, the Pope, Pope Francis meets a lot of people, right? But often they have the people somewhat behind, behind bars. He walks by people and there's like these restraining fences. He walks by and shake hands with a lot of people and blesses them. You've seen that kind of situation? He's very loving and compassionate and touching the people. And one lady went like this.

[49:45]

I want more pulp. More pulp. More pulp. And he slapped her. Not her face, you know, slapped her hand. And was that ethical? Anyway, he got questioned. He got questioned. And that's good. They don't say, well, as a pope, you can't question the pope. But anyway, he slapped her. It didn't look like Pope Francis. Boo! Kind of like, I hate you. Now, if he did that in a movie theater, it would really be something. You go to movies and slap people? Anyway, he got questioned.

[50:45]

That's the spirit. And then there can be a conversation. And in this case, he got questioned and he said, Yeah, that wasn't – I didn't mean that as compassion. He could have said that was my compassionate response to her trying to pull me over the guardrail. But he didn't say that. He said, I lost my patience. He said, I'm human. Buddha activity can reach humans. Humans can participate. But part of participating, if we're really participating, people will question us. If we're not participating fully, nobody will question us. Because we'll be sending out a message I'm perfect, and do not question me. And even not, I may not be perfect, but don't question me.

[51:49]

That's not Buddha activity. Buddha activity is, let's do this together. And then, but, and I might say, you know, I'm sorry if that was that way, but I didn't actually feel impatient with her. I meant it as a as a love pet. And I'm sorry if it looked like I was being mean to her or angry with her, but I wasn't. But I, you know, you questioned me and I looked and I didn't see it. But other times, in this case, they questioned the Pope, the Pope said, yeah, I did kind of lose my patience. I'm human. But a human can be a vehicle to realizing Buddha activity. And what it looks like is humans are doing stuff all day long and they're being questioned. They're doing all things long, and they're in conversation. To do things all day long and not be in conversation isn't Buddha activity.

[52:50]

Buddha activity is conversation. Part of it's perceptible, but part of the conversation is imperceptible. Would it be fair to say that we're sitting zazen in order to free all beings from suffering? He said, would it be fair to say that we're sitting zazen in order to free all beings from suffering so they can live in peace? I think it would be fair to say that. But you could also say it slightly differently and say, I sit zazen for that purpose. rather than sit and talk about other people. I said Zazen for that purpose. But another way to say it is Zazen is freeing all beings.

[53:51]

So one way to say it is Zazen is for the purpose of that. Another way to say it is that's what Zazen is, is that it's freeing all beings so they can live in peace and happiness. So both as this is what I wish it to be, this is what I want it to be, and also I understand, I've heard recently from some people, that that's what Zazen actually is. So I'm practicing to realize that that's what Zazen is. So I'm practicing to realize what Zazen really is is similar to I'm practicing to realize freeing all beings. How are you doing? Sounds good. Do you have any questions? I'll be right back to you. Terry had a question. I've been thinking about this question. I'm curious to see what you think and maybe what others think.

[54:57]

I think Thich Nhat Hanh was asked who his darkest successor would be. And he responded, the community. And I feel, or maybe I'm optimistic, that more people are waking up. Perhaps it's because of the ecological crises and the advent of technology and internet, so there's more information that's more accessible. what's going to happen with Western Buddhism as we, you know, I think is shifting to more of a community-based thing versus the traditional hierarchy of traditional Buddhism. How will it be able to withstand that? How will it evolve? And I think that kind of ties into the ethical question. Why do so many teachers are being questioned? And I think there's something to this hierarchy that's being questioned, this power.

[56:02]

So, what do you think? Again, as far as ethics goes, which is essential for compassion, which is essential for Buddha activity, we have to have ethical discipline. The key factor that I'm emphasizing now is conversation. The fact that we have a hierarchy in some Buddhist traditions, not all of them have much, like Pure Land Buddhism doesn't have much hierarchy, but a lot of other ones do have hierarchy. But no matter whether you have hierarchy or not, there needs to be conversation, there needs to be questioning. And the questioning can apply to the hierarchy. And you said, can the hierarchy withstand it? And I would say, if the hierarchy enters conversation and allows itself to be questioned, then the hierarchy will bloom as Buddha activity.

[57:09]

Hierarchy is an opportunity to verify non-attachment. Can the hierarchy demonstrate that it's not attached? Is the only way to deal with the hierarchy to eliminate it? Or could the hierarchy say, question it, question this. Let's have a conversation. And then the hierarchy, again, is like a form. It's like constructed silence. Silence can also be like questioned. Can we start talking now? So I think the key factor is for the tradition to continue to be alive, it needs to be questioned. And again... I think I mentioned to somebody the other day, some scholars say, I don't know if this is true, but I've heard they say that Buddhism is the first major religion that openly questioned itself, that was self-critical.

[58:11]

So Buddhism should question itself. If it's not, it's not alive. And I hope that Buddhism questioning itself would be transmitted to all other religions, that they would question themselves. If we don't question ourselves, especially religious people, they become self-righteous. So the lay people, the priests, the hierarchy, the matriarchy, whatever kind of organization you have, if the sangha doesn't question itself, it becomes not ethical. If the hierarchy doesn't question itself and also allowed itself to be questioned from others that aren't in the hierarchy, then I would say the hierarchy is not fully alive and serving a purpose. But there are some advantages for hierarchy. For example, I often think In the morning when you're sitting in the zendo, I come over here and bow. So it's traditional that one person in the community does various services while the rest of the community is sitting in the zendo.

[59:19]

Now it is possible and it has been done that everybody in the community would do all those practices. So in some meditation manuals, all the practices that the hierarchy does are done by each meditator. Various rituals are done, and then you sit. So in Zen monasteries, usually a couple of people do the rituals for the whole community, and then while the community's sitting, somebody else is walking around, circumambulating, chanting, offering incense, bowing. But everybody could do that. We could shift and say, could we all do that? Fine. But then we'd have to figure out how to do it. You know, who goes first, who goes second? You know, how many, do we actually have a hundred bowing mats? Or do we take turns, you know? I saw this thing one time, this, what do you call this? Anyway, it was a video, and it was about flamingos.

[60:26]

And flamingos are edible. Laughter And lepers and baboons like to eat flamingos. But flamingos don't like to be eaten by them. So what they do is one of the places that like a million flamingos stop on their migration route, they stop in this, it's like a sulfur lake. But in the sulfur lake, there's some fresh water. So the flamingos stand out in the hot sulfur lake, but they have special little booties that they wear on their feet, which actually come with their jeans. They have jeans and booties. So they can stand out in this hot sulfur water, okay?

[61:30]

a million of them, out in the hot sulfur water. And the leopards and the baboons can't go out in the hot sulfur water and eat them. However, the freshwater, the baboons and the leopards can go in the freshwater and eat them. So what they do is they take turns going into the freshwater area one by one to drink. And while one is drinking, a million are watching for the leopards. And so they do this ritual. If they all go for the fresh water, it'll just be a feast for the predators. But they don't. And they line up patiently going through this ritual. It's so beautiful. And so that's hierarchy. Or that's an organization. That's a ritual. And so, you know, and so when we do service here too, like a noon service, if I'm the doshi, I go up and offer incense, I do the bows.

[62:39]

But first of all, we all do bows. But then while you're chanting, the doshi is doing bows too. Well, we could do it, we could do it differently. We could chant and everybody stop and do bows and chant. But that's a style that the priest serves a purpose But that purpose should be questioned. And I question it myself. Why am I doing the bows? Well, I say, I'm doing it for them so they can keep chanting while I'm bowing. And I can offer incense while they're bowing. But we could all offer incense and we all could bow. The service would be much longer, but that would be fine. So a lot of this stuff, there's some practical reasons for them. Like also some people specialize in these rituals, they get good at them. And other people can learn. Anybody who wants to learn these can learn them. And after you learn them, then you can perform them for the community. But still, the key thing is question it and then see if a conversation ensues.

[63:41]

If it doesn't, I would say, this is not healthy. If we can't question the hierarchy, well, just tell the hierarchy to go sit down. But if you can question it, and you feel like, that was a wonderful conversation we had, the hierarchy's still there, but it can be questioned. And it can be questioned like, I think this is a problem, and see what the hierarchy says, or see what people in the hierarchy say. And then maybe the hierarchy will change, maybe it will go on, but I would say if it goes on while being questioned, it sounds like a healthy hierarchy. And again, you know, like, there's this Protestant tradition where they have female bishops, female archbishops, gay female bishops.

[64:42]

gay men. All this stuff is evolving through questioning the hierarchy. The Catholic Church is now like, are we going to keep having celibate monks, celibate priests? Does this really work? It's questioning it. There's a conversation going on. So keep the questioning coming towards Buddhist hierarchy, Christian hierarchy, Jewish hierarchy. Conversation is Buddha activity. And again, it's going on in a way that we can perceive, and it's going on in a way that we can't perceive. And if we wholeheartedly practice conversation in the realm of perception, we will open to the magnificent, unbelievably wonderful conversation that's going on all the time, where everybody's really cooperating perfectly. Danielle?

[65:46]

I wanted to ask if you could expound on attachment versus non-attachment. So if I'm attached, so I want an example of being attached. Okay, here's an example of being attached. I'm getting older and older and older and I could be attached to my current level of mobility. I could be attached to being able to remember things. I could be attached to, like a lot of older people, one of the main things they have trouble with is they lose some of their autonomy. They can't do things themselves anymore. And they're attached to being able to. So it's hard, it's stressful. So anyway, I'm attached, I'm holding on, it's stressful, that's attachment. I'm not being grateful, that's attachment.

[66:50]

I don't want to have a conversation, that's attachment. Nobody can question me, that's attachment. So attachment is suffering. But it doesn't mean that you can never have any attachment. It just means you do attachment as an opportunity to be compassionate. Then it's fine. And if you're really compassionate with your attachments, they drop away, which they're going to do anyway. All attachments are temporary. Everything you're attached to, everything I'm attached to, is temporary. And so that's, again, why it's so uncomfortable to be attached, because you're attaching to temporary things. It's not going to work. because it's going to be taken away. So before it's taken away, why don't you give it away? And you can see that it's really good to give it away before it's ripped out of your hands. Then you can practice compassion and be at peace. I'm curious as to how that works in a relationship when two people are so caught in love and then the relationship ends.

[68:01]

Someone doesn't want to be in it anymore, but that attachment or the love is still there. How does that work with being compassionate and one being able to move on with it? If you hang out with somebody, even if you don't love them very much, your body forms attachments with them. Your body just gets used to them being around. And when they go away, your body kind of goes, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's going on here? Now, if it's your mother or your child or your lover, then the attachment's even more intense. And if their body goes away, your body is different. I mean, like a mother has a baby inside and the baby comes outside, they get depressed sometimes because this incredible intimacy has been, it comes to an end. And now you have this, in place of this quiet, sweet little intimacy, you have this less intimate screamer

[69:03]

Give me, I want to go back, by the way, so sweet, back. Depression. It's a really painful situation. So we practice compassion with the postpartum depression. We practice compassion with the pain of being separated from somebody. Even if the separation's amicable, our body still says, where is he? Where is she? Oh, I just feel so sore. I feel so wounded. Where are they? The body kind of like, ah! It's got all this stuff that it's used to. It's not there anymore. It's all the adjustment problems left and right. It's a mess. opportunity for compassion. And also, part of the compassion is, do you want to reinforce the attachment now that you're separated? And some people do. Some people think, if you don't reinforce the attachment, if you don't keep wanting the person to come back, you'll lose them for sure.

[70:11]

Well, that's not necessarily so. They might come back if you let go of them. They might come back if you hold on to them. But anyway, holding on to them is just going to be pain for the holder. And so when this happens, I ask people, do you want to let go of the person or not? If you don't let go of them, you're just going to keep yourself in agony. But if you want to let go, then we can do rituals of letting go. I learned this when I was 19. Somebody left me, and it was very difficult to adjust to But fortunately she was kind to me and let me go spend some time with her after she told me she was going to marry somebody else. My body did not want to not see her anymore. Anyway, she let me come and spend time with her. So I went to see her, and before I went, I intended to do a ceremony in myself of letting her go.

[71:17]

And the whole time I was with her, for several hours, I just kept saying to myself, I let you go. [...] She was going. And I got with the program. And I let her go. [...] And the more I let her go, the more she started looking like an ordinary girl. She was at college, you know. When I first arrived, she was the most wonderful girl on the campus. But as I let her go, she became just another one of the girls, another one of the lovely co-eds. But I became more and more free. I let her go. I let her go. Still, when I got on the bus and went home, there was an ache. It wasn't complete. But basically, I let her go. But I had to say it over and over and over, just like,

[72:19]

welcome, welcome, welcome, over and over until it starts to take effect. Like that poem, it's called the Father's Poem, it's in Warm Smiles. But now I see no one knows that they're beautiful. They have to be told and retold until it takes hold. You have to keep saying, you're beautiful, you're beautiful. over and over. You have to say, I let you go, I let you go, I let you go, until you really do let it go. But if you don't want to let go, then you, okay, suffer. Hold on. Keep it going. Keep fighting reality. Attachment is basically fighting reality. Go ahead, keep it up if you want to, I'll... But also we can join reality and say, I let it go, I let it go, I let it go. And you can see how that feels. It feels more and more at ease.

[73:22]

But it's normal for a body to form attachment. And if babies don't do it, they can't survive. So part of our life, we have to have a period of attachment But at a certain point, it's time to get over it and start doing this other practice. Instead of holding on, giving. Instead of trying to get, give. When we're little, it's all about getting, getting, getting, getting. And then gradually, even our parents who we're trying to get stuff from, they start to tell us, you know, it'd be nice if you occasionally shared things with people. And then after many years, you say, oh, okay, maybe I will share. And then how about giving? We need education. We're naturally deluded, we're naturally trying to hold on. Somebody has to show us how beautiful it would be and how comfortable it would be to let go, to give it away. It is according with all beings.

[74:25]

rather than just them according with me, according to my thing. But the body does naturally go . And we can't really tell it to let go. We can say let go, but if we just say let go, it transforms our unconscious process, and our unconscious process transforms our nervous system. and our nervous system dares to do some new things like letting go of some things that it orchestrated into attachment. Okay? Yes? I want to go back to a question about ethics because there's no absolute, this is right and this is wrong. Well, you just said that, right? There's no absolute right and wrong. You just said that? Yes. Okay. I would say that's questionable. Okay.

[75:33]

So somebody else, by the way, who's not in the room right now said there is absolute right and wrong. Somebody else said that. You know what I mean? Some people say that. Yes. Yeah. So ethics is not that we hold to what you're saying, that there's no absolute. That's not ethics. Well, where I was going with were that we have ethical things like the precepts and the Ten Commandments, but the interpretation of those is subjective. So right now, like politically out there, I might believe some behavior is unethical, and people say that it is ethical, and there is no dialogue. So it's just really hard when your ethical view or what you perceive as right or wrong is so different from someone else, and they won't let you question them, even nicely.

[76:34]

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so what I'm saying is that the dialogue is the actual ethics. Yes. Not what I think. Not what they think. What they think isn't ethics. That's just what they think. What I think isn't ethics. That's just what I think. Like I could think there's no absolute right and wrong. I could think that. That's not ethics, that's just a human opinion. Humans have opinions, and ethics are for humans who have opinions, like us. So I have an opinion, there's no absolute right and wrong. I have an opinion, there is absolute right and wrong. I have an opinion that nobody can question me. I have an opinion that somebody can question me. These are opinions. The ethics is the actual dialogue. between two people who both think that right and wrong are absolute, they can have dialogue too.

[77:42]

Even the people, even this self-righteous person who thinks this is absolute good and this is absolute evil, they can have a conversation with another person who says this is absolute good and this is absolute evil. They can have a conversation and that conversation is ethics. They'll start to have problems with each other. Yeah, yeah, you say it's absolute good, but you don't know what absolute good really is. And then if the person allows the conversation to go on, that's where the ethics is living. So you have certain positions, I have certain positions, this person has certain positions, each person has positions, and none of those positions by themselves are ethics. That's what I say. But what I just said is not ethics either. That's just an opinion. Everything I say is not ethics. The conversation between what I say and what you say, that's ethics.

[78:48]

And again, what I just said is not ethics either, but that's what I said. So, and if people don't want to talk to us, we got problem. Because we need conversation. We need the Republicans and the Democrats to have conversation. We need them to dialogue. And if they don't, but actually they do, they are actually having dialogue, and the dialogue is where the ethics is. It's not like the Democrats got all the ethics, or the Republicans do. Neither one of them got them by themselves. Buddha activity is not a fixed thing. And it's also not an unfixed thing. It's the dialogue between the fixed and the unfixed. Freedom is not a perceptible thing. It's not an imperceptible thing. It's both in dialogue.

[79:50]

And so we have a problem when we want to talk to somebody who has a different view from us. We have a problem if they don't want to talk to us. But we have a way of dealing with the problem. Compassion. And part of compassion is being patient with it. They don't want to talk to us. Or it could be we don't want to talk to them. They say to us, can we talk about that? And we say, I don't want to. And I would like them to accept it. I don't want to talk yet. And let them wait until I am ready. Do you want to talk to me? No. Also in that book, Being Upright, there's a story about these Jewish people who approached a member of the KKK. And they invited, he was disabled, and they invited to help him go shopping. And he said, ìNo. I don't want you to help me.î And then he said, ìBut thanks for offering.

[80:56]

So, can we talk?î And then sometime later, yeah, thank you. So if we want to talk, eventually they'll talk. We're on the path of conversation. Everybody's going to eventually join it, but part of the practice is to not force people to talk when you want to talk and wait until they're ready. But offer them the sincere offer. I would like to talk to you about... about your political views or about your stance on global warming. Like I heard this guy say on the radio the other day, everybody's going to die. I'm going to die. They're going to die. That doesn't bother me. What bothers me is being poor. This is somebody who is doing something that's a very polluting type of work. And he understands that maybe

[82:01]

If he keeps doing this work, the human population, the human race is going to die. People are going to just die from this terrible environmental situation. What he's worried about is between now and when he dies that he's going to be poor. So he doesn't care about people dying. He cares about poverty. So how do we have a conversation with this guy? But he was in conversation. He did tell people that and it's on the radio and Again, that's the key. The key is the hard work of conversing with people who have really different views from us, who think war is really a good idea because war makes us safe. And they think murder is really a good idea because murder makes us safe. And guns in schools is a good idea because it makes us safe. People think like that, and maybe you don't. I'm not saying they're wrong and you're right or vice versa.

[83:02]

I'm saying we've got to have a conversation. Otherwise, the people with the guns are going to just keep their guns unless somebody talks to them compassionately and makes them feel not so scared. And it's a huge job, isn't it? We've got problems and we've got compassion. So again, my views are not ethics. I do have views on ethics, but my views on ethics are not ethics. Ethics are my views about ethics in conversation with your views. Maybe I think something was harmful. That's my view. My view is that that's harmful. That's not ethics, that's my view. Ethics is... You tell me you think it wasn't harmful and we talk about it. That's where the ethics, that's where the protecting means, protecting means comes from.

[84:06]

Me saying, you know, I think I was impatient. I'm sorry. You know, I think I was cruel. I'm sorry. And you say, thank you for saying that. I appreciate it. And now that I think about it, I think I was cruel too. I'm sorry. A lot of I'm sorry is part of ethics. Yes? When I was listening to the talk, I thought that a lot of conversation is often not enough. People can spend a lot of hours trying to convince themselves in the conversation, and it seems like the spirit of inquiry might really... Yeah, yeah. When I say conversation, I mean conversations with questions. And especially for us Buddhists, what I was thinking was that since we are ultimately realizing that the nature of reality is such that I do not exist, and there is many other things coming forth and making me...

[85:15]

in the state of inquiry, we can kind of discern maybe together, was it me, level of mind, reception of me that did this thing that is questionable? Or maybe there's a myriad of things that kind of came and did it, and I was like, oops, I'm not sure I wanted to do it, but it happened. So it's very helpful to kind of see what we can own and what we can't. Yeah. So conversations, when I say conversation, I don't mean a conversation where one person's doing all the talking. I'm in conversation where both parties are being called into question by the other party. That's wholehearted conversation. I'm aware that we're getting close to the lunchtime, which is very important, right? So maybe we should stop, even though I appreciate that more questions are being offered. Is that okay to stop? Thank you for the gift.

[86:18]

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