who I think last spoke here in probably 1992. I think so, yeah. I think that's right. Some of you may remember him from hospice in Bihar that he had in Richmond, and he's been back east in New York for quite a while. He's a remarkable person with more ordinations than you could shake a stick at. He has Theravada ordination, Vajrayana ordination, and Zen ordination in Vietnamese tradition from Vietnam in Los Angeles, and also he's a Catholic. A Coptic. Coptic Catholic monk. So I invited him to say a little about his life and the work that he's been doing, which is quite remarkable. Good morning.

[01:04]

This has been a long time since I had to give a real early morning talk. So it's kind of very interesting because this reminds me usually around this time of the morning in the Trappist Monastery would have what is called chapter. And that's when all the monks get together in the chapter house and whatever things for the day or discussions or things that might be coming up we discuss. Maybe one of the fathers or brothers might read a passage from the scriptures. Maybe the abbot will give a talk on the rule of St. Benedict. I'm trying to, some kind of way to express, when I was very young, about 14 and a half, I was in, going to a Catholic boarding school in Washington State.

[02:08]

And when I was about 15, I ran across a book by Thomas Merton called The Waters of Selah. Actually, it was a history book on the Trappist monastic life. But it was so vivid and such a strong thing for me to read at that time that I knew I wanted to become a Trappist monk. And so it was during that time, being a good altar boy, and that was the old days of Catholicism and things. That was before Vatican II, way before Vatican II. And being a good altar boy and being in the seminary section, we had a discussion. And so the priest was asking, the Father Master was asking us what we would like to do. Did you want to become a secular priest? Did you want to go to the Jesuits?

[03:09]

Did you want to do this? Did you want to do that? And so when it came to my turn, I boldly stood up and said I wanted to become a Trappist. And Father Master just died laughing. And he just fell out. I mean, that really made his day. But it made mine, too, because he ticked me off. And so I was really determined at this time. So I did say anything. Up and through the day, I'd done my little duties, said to different masses, helped the priests with the different masses during the day and everything, and went back to my room that night, finished my homework that I had to turn in tomorrow for the next day, and took it and put it in the teacher's mailbox. and along with a note, and came back to my room, packed my bags, left, got on the first Greyhound bus, and went to the nearest Trappist monastery. And they were quite shocked and surprised.

[04:11]

They didn't know what to do. My family didn't know where I was at. My father didn't know where I was at. So the first thing the abbot did, and the novice master did after talking with me for a great length, I talked to my parents to let them know I was safe and everything, blah, blah. And that I had this idea of becoming a trappist, blah, blah, and all this and that. And we'll put him through a test, and then we guarantee in the next two or three days, he'll go running home. Don't worry, he's in good hands. So it'd be like a little retreat. So the first two weeks, they had me plant. I planted over 1,000 palm trees, not palm, but pine trees. And then they had me do all kind of, had me work in the manure fields, had me on the farm and everything. And everything was going beautiful. And then finally, the abbot came to my room in the guest house and said, you know, Our Lady Guadalupe must really be on your side because we are going to accept you. So I was happy about that. and went into the monastery with the rest of the monks, and they gave me my new little uniform that you wear as apostolate, and they shaved my head.

[05:23]

And then three months later, I became a novice. Trying to make the story short, I became a novice. After two years of that, I made my simple vows. And then after the simple vow period was over, then I made my solemn vows. And then a year later, I was ordained a priest as a choir monk. And then in 62, Vatican II came along. And we're used to chanting for many hours. We had chants seven times a day. And the lifestyle is very similar. Say, if you're living in a Zen monastery, a Chinese monastery in Japan or China, someplace, the lifestyle is very similar. We had very long 18-hour days. We go to bed at 7.30 in the evening, and we wake up at 2.15 in the morning. And it was a continuous day. It was all done in complete silence and all of this and that.

[06:27]

We had a sign language in those days. And being the quite type of a novice where I could really adapt and invent things, me and the other novice has expanded the sign language for the trappists. So we used to go better conversations than the old monks. But young people do that anyway. Because when I was on the outside, we used to use Pig Latin a lot, so that our parents wouldn't know what we were talking about. And my parents used to use Creole French a lot, so we wouldn't know what they were talking about. So it was kind of an interesting thing. But anyway, under Vatican II, the first two days of the meeting, We came down into the choir, and all of a sudden, all the Latin books disappeared. There wasn't any Latin books. There was a few English books for us to do our prayers. And quite a few of the older monks were upset.

[07:30]

They were stomping around. So it was a really unusual time for the Vatican, too, for the monks, because they were getting ready to go through this transition. But anyway, they had asked for volunteers to go and study some of the meditation in Eastern religion. Pope John XXIII had made arrangements with about 18 or so different meditation masters in different religious traditions in their Eastern religions. And we had our pick of those who wanted to go. And for some strange reason, I volunteered. And then I had to come out of the monastery. I spent almost a year outside working at San Francisco General and saving up some extra money. And then I took off for the Far East and went into India. Met my first teacher in Nepal, then went down to India again, hooked up with the Coptics when I discovered them in the south of India, and then from there proceeded to do more Buddhist things. And then around 1968, I was in Thailand, but I was there just right after the time that Thomas Merton died there.

[08:38]

I didn't even know he was in the country, because if I had, I would have went to Thailand even earlier. I only found out he was there after his death, so we never had a chance to really meet. but I always consider him really my first guru. So when I came back to the States because my grandmother was very ill and she passed away and then during that transition period, me and a friend was riding around on a bicycle and we went down to Chinatown and then trying to, I was trying to figure out what I was going to do next and there was a lot of things going on for me mentally and all of this and that because I was my grandmother's favorite and my grandmother was my favorite and so it was a very rough time at that time. So I decided to throw a coin in the washing well down in Chinatown in Los Angeles and I threw a dime. The dime landed right in the bowl of the Buddha And I thought that was interesting. Then we was on the bicycle ride, and I went around New Hampshire, and I fell off my bike on the grass.

[09:38]

And when I looked up, I saw this sign, IBMC. I said, what is IBMC? So I went over there to see, and I looked in the window. I saw a Buddha sitting up in there. And I said, oh, what is this place? But no one was home. So I left my name and phone number. And then later that night, a friend would take a non-call and ask me if I'd come to one of the services that was happening later that week. So I said, okay. And when I went there, he had just come from teaching at UCLA. And during that time when I met him, it was like You had met somebody that was long lost since you haven't seen in say years and years and years and years, but it was like a father to you. And we attached to each other so quickly that without a word, without a question, without a doubt, I asked to stay there and be with him. And I used to take care of the whole center while they go and teach. I used to wash, cook, clean, and everything.

[10:39]

It was only one person, me, doing. And everything he needed, I would do. And then, without question, it was just like a long-lost grandfather or father or something. It's very hard to explain that relationship that we had. And then after I was there for about, six months, seven months or something like that, he came to my room and asked me if I wanted to ordain in his sangha. And he wanted me to ordain in his sangha. And without questioning again, I said yes. And then I continued to stay with him right up until the time he passed away. But I did have to go to Asia from time to time because he sent me to Thailand to learn some things in Thailand. And that's how I met my Sri Lankan teacher in Malaysia, and then that's when I was preparing to take the Theravada ordination. Because he wanted us to take the different ordinations for when Buddhism began to grow and develop in this country.

[11:43]

it would become more of a unified form of Buddhism. We each know about each other. We could live together. We could share and work together. We could practice together and do all these different things. And we wouldn't know each other's ways, customs, and all these things. And it would be more like a unified Buddhism like you find in Vietnam. up under the United Buddhist Churches of Vietnam is very non-sectarian and very unified. So you'll find Theravada, Mahayana monks living together very easy, or vice versa, living with Zen monks very easily in Vietnam. They're very unified in what they do. And so, I'd done all those things and then as time went on, I was staying in Thailand and I had the opportunity to do a lot of Tudung traveling. That's when you do the ascetic practices of going from place to place by foot.

[12:46]

You have a cart to carry and you carry all necessary things like a little backpack. And you go from temple to temple like a pilgrimage or you live out in the forest. So I was staying out in this one forest temple way up in Thailand there and way out in the jungle. And I mean, they had all kinds of vicious things out there. They had spiders and bugs you could never imagine the size of those creatures. And so they trained us with this particular Metta Sutra and Karuna and how to be more at one with our surroundings and with all the sentient beings that was in the jungle and everything and all this and that. And so we had our kutis, which is the monk's cell. They're usually raised up high, and it has a walkway that go around where you could practice meditation safely, I say, like at night. Then they had a space where you could do it safely in the day for walking meditation or sitting meditation. And so I was sitting there and I just made a cup of coffee.

[13:51]

And I was sitting there, and I was getting ready to do some work, because I had to talk to the abbot of the temple about some Pali questions, because we were learning Pali. So I had some Pali questions, and I was going to go down there later that night. And it was about 8 o'clock after. It was real dark. And we didn't have electricity except for in the vihara, the zindo, Buddha hall. We had lamps, all lamps and things that you use. And I had two of them. I had it lit so you can see what the two of them. And I heard this rustle sound. And I said, what is that? And so I went over to my window. And when I went over to my window, I came face to face with a tagger. The tagger screamed, and I screamed. The tagger went that way, and I went this way. And then I sat down, and I was panting. And I said to myself, I said, so Heat, you have to remember, this is a real jungle.

[15:01]

This is not Tarzan on TV. This is not Hollywood. This is a real jungle. But that was the most terrifying and the most funniest thing that really ever happened to me, actually standing in the forest, in a forest like that. And then as time went on, when Vietnam fell in 1975, I'd done a lot of work with Vietnamese refugees and Cambodian and Laotian. And we set up temples all over America. Then we ended up setting up temples all over Europe and all these places. And so a lot of my Buddhist work have been a lot with the Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Laotians, and Sri Lankans, mostly over the years. I did have, I became somewhat involved with some of the American senators, say for example, like in 91, no, 92 when I went to New York, I worked heavily with Bernie Glassman in the Peacemaker Organization and doing a lot of things with him there on the East Coast.

[16:04]

My main work was working with homeless, mentally ill, substance abusers, basically people with schizophrenia, and we get them housing, training, treatment programs, and all of this and that. So, you know, I'm trying to make it short, but most of my work has been along those lines and along lines of social action. And so I spent through this period of time doing the different, seemed like this sort of thing gravitated itself towards me, like I didn't like sit down and plan, so I want to be a soldier, like do social work, I'm going to go do this, I'm going to go do that. It's just certain situations arose at a certain time, and it was really more of a spontaneous action. and just trying to relieve somebody's suffering. But this also was a part of my teacher's training for us. If anybody ever came to our center or something in Los Angeles and anybody had any type of a problem, we had to take care of that.

[17:08]

That was part of the practice. And we didn't separate it from the practice. So we had to think of the meta, we had to think of the corona, And we have to think of the right action and conduct when we try to relieve some problem for some person. So basically, that's been my Buddhist life and the work that I have done. And so now I have reached a point in my life where I don't look at it as Well, what am I going to do this year? What should I do? And things like that. So I try to keep myself very open and sort of like what Vernon say, bear witness to circumstances. And then if I could do something within those circumstances to relieve something, then do it. Then if I can't do it, don't have a way to do it, then I always offer them better and compassion. And then I always noticed throughout the years, I've been a Buddhist monk now 35 years, and then as a Catholic monk altogether now 45 years.

[18:16]

And so I had made a vow a long time ago when I was ill. that if I ever reached 60, that I was gonna do certain things. And I reached 60, so now again, I'm back in the same situation. I happen to do something, and it seemed like the way it's falling into place is like you do it or else. It's this type of situation, this karmic thing, that it's time to go almost back around the full circle. And that started from my trip when we were in Israel. And everything fell into place when I was in Israel, so I have to attend to those things now and to continue on and then hope I find I don't know the place or the space. I've had this long interview with Herman, but it just doesn't seem to finalize itself. So I have tried to put my practice in such a way where I can be more solitude internally, even though I'm amidst a lot of different things, whether I'm in New York or any other place like that, because it looked like I might not have that opportunity.

[19:33]

It might not be for me. So I've changed my practice somewhat to try to develop internal solitude. And so I've been using that practice and technique right up to this time. I think I talked over 30 minutes. No, not yet. You could take some questions. Oh, OK. I would like to do that then, if there's any questions. wear those if you go to a Trappist monastery? Well, I don't have Trappist robes, but I do have the monastic cowl that is used by the Benedictines and the Comaldolese. And that's similar to our style. So I do take that. Because of the way, like say, the Catholic, the Coptic church is set up quite differently. Can you say what Coptic is? Coptic is the Egyptian Catholics.

[20:36]

It's the same word. It's an Arabic word with cop. It's really what you say as an Egyptian Christian discuss it. At the time after Christ's death, a lot of the followers also began to develop in Egypt and other parts of it. even way before Rome or any of those places. And so it's Egyptian Christians. But I do, when I go there, and if I'm going to stay there a long time with them, then all I have to do is go to the monk who is in charge of all the clothes, and he'll give you the clothes to wear. And then you can fit right in, which is very good, because then you are able to really participate in their life, and you learn a great deal of information. and a great deal of access to a lot of spiritual information as well, like being with them when you're with them. And also their lifestyle is quite similar to the early Buddhist monks. They live in caves and things and high on mountains and things like that.

[21:37]

So you'll find a lot of similarities. Dogma is different, but you will find a lot of similarities. Physically, no. Not in Richmond, no. The work continued on more from the standard of like in New York. When I went to New York, there's some ideas talking with some people to try to get involved and do something else or something different. Because within that community and also the community of Stockton, it seemed like the gang problems and other things have really escalated. But we really haven't gotten in discussion about it yet or not.

[22:39]

So that really remains to be seen. Most of the clients that we had worked with at the time, most of them have passed away. Two of them that passed away and their families didn't want them. And the state or whoever, the county, they cremated them, but they wanted to add them to a landfill. And I didn't like that idea, so they're with me in New York. So more than likely, we might be buried together one day if I pass away, if I find a space. But we're thinking of maybe my Dharma Brothers Temple, just to make a stupa and a space, and we'll keep them there. So that's about really the only thing that's really left from those early days is two of the guys is still with us. And we keep their ashes in our little center in New York. Thank you for your talk.

[23:42]

You mentioned Israel and some things were falling into place a little bit. Can you say more about that? Well, actually it was the coming together of the Peacemaker community, and they was trying to establish that particular branch, sort of like a kickoff for that community to begin in Israel. And a number of us went there, including Alan. We was there for a number of meetings and things. But that's to get a lot of people worldwide to come together in a network. and in a community network who do social action, whether it's our religious organization, individual organizations, but to create a strong network so that we can learn and do things. And say, for example, you get the idea you want to go to maybe to some country to do some particular type of work or to learn something about it, then you have a network there. So there'll be people that will welcome you there, and they will show you what they are doing there.

[24:44]

And so you're able to, quote, bear witness and learn and see what's going on. Then you know what you want to do. Or you can take the ideas that you have learned and bring them back and translate them into your whatever culture that you are living in. Or you can go to all these different places and learn. So basically, that was a kickoff for it like that. pilgrimage, right? Yeah, but I'm going to begin a pilgrimage before Palm Sunday and go to Egypt and Ethiopia and head towards Africa. And my main interest is about Africa. It's because of the problem with the AIDS, HIV, and to see and find if there's some way to connect up or find people to help, mostly the children, because it seems like there's really not much you can do for the people who are sick there at all. And That's like, if you add up all the children, so over millions of children who are actually homeless and left without any family whatsoever because of the ignorance behind not knowing about that disease, not willing to look about that disease, not willing to do a lot of things, unable to have the medication and things.

[25:54]

And so a lot of children are left behind and whole villages are destroyed. And then I plan to go through Europe and go through all the different pilgrimage places there, in memory of that, as part of the peacemaker thing, as part of a personal vow, and then also as part of some people that I know, because every once in a while we go to Auschwitz, one of the different camps, you know, like in Poland, Germany areas, and pay tribute to the Holocaust. And so I knew some people who were very old, They have been good friends over the years, and I know they're dealing with a lot of pain and a lot of anguish and all these things because they can't bring themselves to go to this place because they are survivors. And it would just be too much for them at their age. So I have a list of names, a lot of friends and people like that. And so I include all of them in the pilgrimage as well at the same time. and it's part of my sort of the peacemaker thing at the same time.

[27:01]

How do you reconcile your Catholicism with Buddhism? You know, that's interesting because A lot of times when I talk to people or I meet people and I say, oh, your Catholic father or a Trappist monk or something like that, the first words they always say to me is, why did you change? Why did you change? How did you change? But I didn't change anything. The one thing that I do know is that the Buddha said, come and see. And this is a process that you can use to know about your suffering, how to overcome your suffering, and how to eliminate that suffering and all these things. The Buddha said that to us. And so I took it in terms like that. At the same time, when I was discovered on our Tibetan practice, I don't know if it has anything with the Jung theory or not, the more we tried to visualize a lot of the beautiful Buddhas and bodhisattvas, dakinis and all these things, especially how you do it in the Tibetan tradition of visualization, we kept getting things like Mary and Joseph and Jesus and things pop up in our meditations.

[28:28]

And so the Lama had taught us that this is part of our psyche. So don't throw that part away, but bring it into your practice. And through my practice, it just really balanced out. The only difference you'll find when you have problems is when you're dealing with maybe dogma, theology, and all these things like that, which I never paid any attention to. You know, my whole Catholic life. You know, because otherwise I probably would be mad by now. Because every thought, every person have their own deity and view on what God is and where he come from and all these things like that. So I sort of kept myself just open and really away from that particular thing. So it sort of just really balanced out for me. in my practice, and it became very easy. It's like my right side and my left side, or my right brain, my left brain. It's just like that. It's just like a part of me. That's the best way I could explain it to you.

[29:29]

So it sounds like practice has really been the heart of your life, and that's what you were really drawn to, even when you were 14. Can you say what your daily practice is now, a little bit about what form it takes? Oh, it was quite interesting. We do meditation. I do sitting meditation, and I try to do it morning and evening. But I also end up doing a lot of, I have to do a lot of Buddhist services as well. Sometimes I have to do weddings, I have to do funerals, I have to go do house blessings, and I have to go this blessing, that blessing, and all of this and that. So we have to do a lot of what you call parish temple activities, sort of put it in. It's like being a parish priest. I like being a Zen priest in his temple, and maybe his village, or maybe his community, and he has all these things you have to do. We have that part to do there, too.

[30:34]

Plus the work that I've been doing, like with the homeless mentally ill. And that was actually a project and really like a job. So that took up a lot of time. That was like from, you know, like nine to five type thing, or even longer on that part there. But in service, we do both the English chant, Prajna Paramita. We might chant. We also do it in Japanese. We also do it in English. And then we also do Pali chanting. and things like that. And the Vietnamese chanting, of course, we also have to do it like that. So it's very integrated and it can vary from day to day. But my basic is meditation and, of course, chanting twice a day is my main practice, the sitting meditation is my main practice. It's getting late, so we have time for maybe one more question. Mhm.

[31:40]

Yeah, you know, in fact, I've been thinking since I've been here in San Francisco, well actually over the last year or two, you know, coming from that culture and tradition, I see as In order to really introduce the Buddhism and things, I see there's another parts of that. Not only we should have the sitting meditation, learn how to be quiet and be stable and sit in our practice and things, but at the very same time, we have to bring in the music. You see, because that is part of the culture. So when you go to other Buddhist cultures, you will notice that a lot of these things came into Buddhism, and it was a very strong factor in making Buddhism something that was really planted into the earth. So a lot of cultural things that we have here, eventually we should bring within our centers and our temples and things. And then it'll really take root. And we also should keep all the different things that we find very useful and helpful that we learned from our original traditions, what they are, and bring all of those things in and keep them as a strong base.

[33:14]

So that's how I feel about that. So we're going to start bringing in music and drums, because we need to reach the young people. And that's the way you can reach the young people is through that medium. I like that perspective. Yeah, yeah. Thank you very much. Okay, thank you. I hope that you'll come back and we can have a sort of freer, more open time. Yeah, okay. Okay, thank you.

[33:38]

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