I vow to taste the truth of God like I did as a worker. until we find a president. And when I go to San Francisco, Michael is one of the people who I'm most related to. So I'm really happy to have this kind of talk today. It's good to see you. Good morning. Morning. This morning,

[01:04]

I'd like to talk a little bit about Katagiri Roshi, who many of you may know died on March 1st, and now is leaving this afternoon to go to his funeral, which will be this Monday. Katagiri Roshi was a very important teacher for me, and I think because, in some ways, Or at least the fantasies we may have about it as a teacher. He led a very hard life. I think some of us may think, well, only if we practiced hard then our life would be golden and easy. But he always led a very hard life. He was the youngest of ten children.

[02:07]

born to a, his family ran a restaurant. And when he was in his teens, during World War II, he was in the army and he had an appendicitis attack and there were no doctors, because all the doctors were in a fighting front or something. And so a non-doctor took out his appendix And for the rest of his life, his digestion and stuff down there was always giving him a problem. Partially because he didn't come from a family that was socially upper class or something. Or a family that had a long history of priests in the family or He didn't have a particularly quick entry into the hierarchy of practice in the temple structure.

[03:19]

But, on the other hand, that was a great plus for him, because he was able to spend many years at a heiji, while if he had been placed some other way, he would have had to go to run his temple probably quite early, as Suzuki Roshi needed to do. So that was a big plus for him. He decided to become ordained right after the war was over because it was the only place where he felt some peace or ease in Japan at the time. Japan he felt was completely thrown off course after losing the war, but he didn't feel that in the temples. His teacher, anyhow, he went to And when he got back, his first break, or when he got back to his teacher, he said his teacher hadn't taught him anything about meditation, or how to do it, or the fact that it was important to do.

[04:25]

And he asked his teacher, how come you didn't tell me? And his teacher told him, you never ask. So this is a little bit of a style of Japanese teaching that we don't understand so much. In fact, I remember him once talking about what happens in a temple in Japan. You would go and someone would tell you to clean the courtyard. They wouldn't tell you how to clean the courtyard, they just said clean the courtyard. And then when you'd finish, someone would tell you everything you missed. Now, some of you may still experience this at Sanders, but actually, it's not so much our American way. American way is that, oh, you do these things, and here's a list we made out, and take care of these corners. And that's, of course, very good if you're trying to get the courtyard clean. But this other way shows you what your projection of what cleaning the courtyard is and what you missed.

[05:28]

So even though it's maybe a much more vulnerable situation, and you may not do the right thing, still there's a great learning opportunity there. Do it, and find out what you didn't think of. This little bit different way of looking at things is both a little bit Japanese and a little oriental, and maybe also part of what's so useful about Asian teachers for us, as well as a central part of Kavyaroshi's teaching. Not to do something to succeed and do it right and get a gold star next year, maybe. Well, that's all right. But to do something to learn about how you approach things, We can go through our whole life manipulating things the way we want to, getting all the gold stars we want, and maybe not learning so much.

[06:34]

Probably not, but there's that possibility. Eventually he decided that he wanted to come to America. He was a little bit of an independent rebel kind of guy. Japanese sort of way. He really wanted to go back to both the traditional approach of Dogen, which he felt had been somewhat corrupted in Japan, and to a fresh approach. So for many of us... And so he first went to Los Angeles, where he worked with the actual bishop of North America, who was centered in L.A., who basically wanted to continue doing the usual kind of temple practice rather than monastic practice, doing ceremonies and services and working

[07:43]

and he had several run-ins. And then he heard about Suzuki Roshi doing something at Bush Street, and he came and he immediately stayed and became central to Zen Center and studied with Suzuki Roshi. Mel always describes Kaguya Roshi as being the perfect student matching the perfect teacher, Suzuki Roshi. But seeing the way that they both interacted was a tremendous teaching. Some of his favorite phrases were, sit down and shut up. And in some ways, Ken Hiroshi, excuse me, Hiroshi, was not the smartest person in the world.

[09:00]

He was a very shrewd person. He was not particularly, you know, intellectually brilliant or something. As you might guess from Sit Down and Shut Up. But he was totally committed to what he was doing. He had other, many other reverses. Suzuki Roshi wanted to, when we were moving away from Sokoji, wanted Kagura Roshi to be kind of the abbot of Sokoji, to keep her, that way there would be a harmonious relationship between the Japanese community and the American community when it was kind of split. But ironically enough, he was, in much of the Japanese temple community, he was associated with the Westerners, who they were glad to get rid of. I think we can understand why, probably with some good cause, and they didn't want him to be out of there. When Suzukiroshi died, it's unclear whether he, perhaps he wanted to become avid, or he didn't see how he could work with

[10:09]

Suzuki Roshi's appointed successor. I don't know exactly, but that was also a difficult time for him. And there are many other difficult times in his life. But even though it was difficult for him, he got angry, upset, other things, he was never bitter. He always would say, stand up with everyone with peace and harmony. Other people I know been in situations, sometimes with good cause, sometimes with not so good cause, become very bitter when they don't get what they want. But he was not that way. And I think that was also another important lesson for me, which is related to what I'm saying, is that I think sometimes we practice to get what we want, what we want for me. And while practice is somewhat successful, or things happen when we practice intensely, it's not exactly that you're going to get what's right for me, or what I want.

[11:24]

And if you practice for yourself, you're going to become bitter, because you'll always be measuring what happens, what you get, or what you put out. You do this for practice, you do this in your job, you do this in your marriage, you do this in anything. If you're always calculating what you're getting for what you're giving, that's a pretty difficult situation. Rather than doing what you want to do with your whole heart, do what you want to do with your own with your whole heart, rather than looking at the bottom line all the time, of what you're going to get out of it. So I always had the feeling that Kadyr was doing exactly what he wanted to do. He was sitting down, he was showing up, he was watching himself, he was teaching as best he could.

[12:26]

And so if he had reverses, if things didn't go his way, his life was still full. And then, finally, he went to Minnesota, which, as you know, was not exactly a natural hotbed of Buddhism. I think there's quite a bit of interest on our coasts, both here on the west coast and the east coast, in Buddhism, but not so much in the central part of the country. The weather's not so nice. Everything's slow. And yet he was doing what he wanted to do. I once asked him, actually, I met him, I think I was picking him up at an airport, dropping him off because he was going to fly somewhere, and it was many a times when we met, and Norman Fisher was with me.

[13:36]

And I said to Ketagirishi, you know, many Eastern teachers can Well, their lectures may be good or not. Sometimes their lectures aren't even so good. Western teachers often, because of the examples they use and because of the intimacy with the culture, the shared intimacy with our common culture, their lectures are really wonderful. But Eastern teachers often have a certain kind of warmth, heart, presence. I don't even know exactly what to say about it. And they said, that's what I'd like to learn from you. How can I learn that? Well, anyhow, he thought it was a good question. He said, did you hear that, Norman? That's a good question. And he said, when people see me, they don't see the years I spent studying with my teacher. They just see the way I am now.

[14:36]

They don't see the context and the time I spent with my teacher. Well, that was a little bit of an enigmatic answer, at least for me. Perhaps many of you are quicker and understand it immediately, but it's a little bit hard. However, I had just, I think the year before, been his attendant at a sashim. And when I was his attendant, it wasn't like I was the servant and he was the master. He was the teacher and I was his attendant. But we each had our own... We each had our own room. We were both trying to do something. We each had our own job. My job was to take care of him. His job was to give the session and lead the lectures. And... I don't know, it was more like...

[15:38]

marriage or more. I don't know if some of you have ever gone camping. And if you go camping with two or three people, very small groups, you all work. You know, there's a lot of work in camping. There's the hiking, there's getting the food ready, there's getting the wood, there's setting up the tents. Anyhow, and particularly if you do it kind of in a vigorous way, it's very scheduled. And everybody does something. And usually, you know, one person usually sets up the tent and takes care of the One person maybe to clean. Anyhow, that kind of thing where everybody is completely working together. We have different roles and different things. And there's something about that that I think he was talking about when they didn't see the time I spent with my teacher. Just getting up in the morning, passing the incense. In times when it was sunny and in times when it was rainy, just doing the same thing together. There's something in there that I think he was talking about.

[16:48]

I was reminded, I heard you doing the full moon ceremony, the Bodhisattva ceremony this morning. It was wonderful to hear you. One of the last times I was in Minnesota, not the last time, but a while ago, I noticed that for a service they would do the refuges, the vows, and also the repentance. All my ancient twisted karma. They would do it on the street, every morning as part of their service. So I asked Kagiro Ishiyama, is this something that's traditionally done in Japan? Do it every morning as part of the service? And he said, no. I said, well, are you doing it because we Americans need it more? And he said, no.

[17:51]

He said, we human beings need it more. You know, this is a good example. One of the things that I think both was a draw that turned people off to him was that he was Japanese. What can you do about that? Or some of us are men and some of us are women. What can we do about that? It's both what attracts some people to us and what also turns people off to us. That's interesting. Each of us have our own position, our own For about a year before he died, Ketegi Hirsch was quite sick.

[18:59]

He had spent so much emphasis on doing the zendo and doing the monastic forms. Spent his last year of his life mostly in bed. And last time I visited him, last November, he was preparing to do dharma transmissions for mostly people he had ordained, about a dozen. And I came up to week at this time, and he kind of tried to get up. As soon as he saw me, he smiled.

[20:04]

He tried to get up. Basically, his whole job had been to keep up, to be alive, to be present. And I walked into the room, and he tried to... He was completely present with me. We happened to talk about Buddhists of one or two points. He couldn't talk very much. I didn't know what to say. Basically, we were just hung out together for a little while. very attentive and present. I tried to be attentive and present. It was really impressive. I don't know about you, but when I get sick, I sometimes check out a lot. But he was really present. And then later that evening, One person was staying over at his house to help his wife in case something happened in the evening. And that night, he started coughing. And he coughed for about 20 minutes every 15 seconds.

[21:05]

And we called the hospital. It looked like we were going to need to go to the hospital. I went there. I was a little embarrassed to be with him. I mean, I'd just flown in the day before. We hadn't sort of built up our... I was a little embarrassed to be there. I don't think he had a top on or something. I was trying to comfort him. And also, I had that feeling that I wasn't being pushed away. He was just there. He was just there. He was trying to take care of his cough. I was there, and we were there together. I don't know. It just sounds very ordinary, but it's actually quite moving. It was quite moving to me. Some of you may know, when you're sick, when somebody is sick, I was very seriously sick. The gift that you can give to them and that they can give to you is not fixing anything. There are, in America, I think we do have the edge of kind of spiritual materialism.

[22:34]

Getting something, fixing something, manipulating something. And we can use our meditation that way. Rather than in our sitting being as present as we can. With the pain, with the suffering, with joy, with whatever is present. And, you know, his community... I was talking to Michael O'Neill, who's the president of Minnesota, and he said it was a real gift that he actually used to his not being around. It wasn't a sharp break. That was a sort of gift. In each of our presence to each other, presence is a gift, is a present.

[23:40]

Presence is a present. Another interesting thing, which they asked him the last time he was He was going into the hospital for tests, I think about a month before he died. They asked him if he had any words about who his successor should be. And he said that the Minnesota board should decide. I think they have about a five-person board. They should decide that he didn't have a recommendation. They said, well, what about the 12 people who you gave Dharma transmission? Is there one of those who stands out, or a couple of them that stand out? And he said, no, that they were pretty much the same.

[24:45]

He said not to hurry their choice, that they should take their time. And then they asked him, well, should they look for somebody outside of that dharma transmission group? And he thought for a minute, and he said, probably not. And so still they were a little frustrated, as you might imagine. And they said, well, can you give us any other hints about what we should do? And he said, well, to take your time and to not necessarily pick the most talented person. I didn't necessarily pick the obvious person or the person that's ... No, I'm sorry to get in there. The person is in a hurry or something. You know, that was, I think, typical of Khyagiri Rishi's wisdom, that kind of thing.

[25:51]

His name was given as Dainen, which means great patience. Now I know some of you have been lay ordained, and some of you may, that may be coming up. And I think if you got the name great patience, you wouldn't necessarily think, oh wow, that's a great name. It is a great name. However, it's the kind of name in which you can, it's hard to just kind of leap We think of patience as the kind of, you know, it's the waiting time until something will really happen. But, Kali-giririshi, great patience, was not the preparatory time. Patience is not really preparation. You know, in a way, patience is it. You know, you're not patient until circumstances change, and then you're not going to be patient anymore.

[27:05]

So, the question I ask Katya Giririshi, how do we develop this warmth and presence with each other. How do we do that? We can learn the scriptures of Buddhism. It's hard enough, but we can do it. But how do we develop this other thing? You know, when Kairoshi died, I felt some kind of both kind of responsibility for what he taught me to kind of, more responsibility to kind of share it, spread the wealth, and also some kind of feeling of loss of being less able to do that. But then I thought about it and, you know, I projected, Mel must have the same feeling with Suzuki Roshi.

[28:26]

He needs you. He needs you. We need each other to pass on this, what sometimes we say, from warm hand to warm hand. And it's not just knowledge. Knowledge is good. It's not just knowledge. Its results may not be flashy, or we may not be, quote, very successful. How do we evaluate that success? How do we evaluate the success of when you die, being surrounded by people who cared for you, who have learned from you, and to pass peacefully?

[29:35]

How do we evaluate great patience? You know, in the Lotus Sutra, the Maitreya, who is the Buddha to be, is the coming Buddha after Shakyamuni Buddha. His name in the Lotus Sutra is Seeker of Fame and Game. Can you imagine being given that Buddhist name? that the patience that he went through, being given that Buddhist name, and still to continue practicing, that's even harder than great patience. And still he refined himself. And it could be seen that he could work through that. Though the span of a Lotus Sutra, of course, it's many lifetimes and kalpas. I think that's just realistic. It takes that.

[30:51]

Are there any questions? It'll come later anyway. And Maitreya Buddha was called Seeker of Faith and Gain. So, you know, not to put yourself down too much when you notice our foibles. It's not like, oh, that means I cannot become Buddha. Or as Kagarishi would say, Throw yourself into the house of Buddha.

[32:09]

Throw yourself in. And you know, I really had this feeling he was always trying to throw himself into the house of Buddha. And whether he was there or not, or whether he were there or not, that effort to throw yourself in. Or sometimes when I, if I'm really in a bad way, sometimes I'll just bow. Not to get in a better way, or not, I don't think, it just feels like That's a bowing to that which I feel I want to become, or which I feel closest to, or which I respect. I'm just putting energy into that. And it may not be the purest. There may be all kinds of things going on. But as best I can, I throw my energy into that, throwing myself into the house of Buddha. sitting down and shutting up and just trying to, what's going on? Just trying to be as present as I can. And sometimes we're successful, sometimes we're not.

[33:15]

Sometimes people may come to lectures to hear from us, other times people may remind us on the street You said something really beautiful about, I don't remember exactly how you said it, following your heart, not gain or giving to get, but following your heart. I'm curious, Michael, what you would say about knowing what that is and also It seems to me, looking around, a lot of people that have been around in practice for a long time have a level of constancy about that, like they really stick with it, you know? Those two aspects. At the funeral ceremony we did at Page Street, Paul Disko said something which I know was an interchange between them, but anyhow, he said,

[34:24]

He put up his hands like this and said, hold to the void. Or something like that. Yeah, the most, you know, as one of the most important things, the hardest thing to do is to find out what your heart is. And when you stumble upon it, keep going. Then when it feels further apart, well, keep trying to go toward it. And sometimes it's obvious. At times, you know, bird is singing now, the sun is out, it's obvious, right? When the neighbors are yelling, the dogs are barking, and you've just made a couple of mistakes, and it's not always so clear. But to keep with that as best you can, and even if you don't succeed, you've succeeded. Even if your heart's trained, you're doing your heart's training, That's success. Whether it actually, you know, the building actually happens, or there's lotus petals fall down or not, that's, you know, that's something else.

[35:32]

But you're doing what your heart's dream is, that's success. If it rains outside and you're painting away, and you're really in there with a painting, whether any art critic ever sees it again, Of course you want to see it, you want other people to see it, but doing what you're... And it's hard to do. Particularly in a complex world, we're hit by all these things and we have to deal with them and we can easily get off track. But whenever we stumble upon what really feels right, keep going with that as much as you can. And then when things feel... Just remember, what is it that's... Or ask the question, what is the most important thing to you? It helps, it helps. And it's always, it's not, oh, now I know what my heart says and therefore it's all over it and, you know, there's the next day.

[36:34]

So that constancy is really, it's true. What our practice is about a lot is to always be able to set ourselves up to return to that. And it's usually not somewhere else. And I think one of the things that's nice about practice is that it feeds or speaks to that part of us, that deeper part of us. And it happens, it's sort of encouraging you to do it each moment. And it's that aspect of just being fed by this encouragement to be there that feels like what you do anyway. Well, there's a real kernel there that's really true. Whoever you are now is no accident. Whatever you're doing now is no complete accident.

[37:37]

It may not be what your heart's dream is, but there's a kernel in there that's your heart's dream. It may be perverted, it may be lost, it may be mixed in with other stuff, but where you are right now, there's something there. That's right. It may not exactly, you know, the thing, it's a security quote, which I quote all the time. Each one of you is perfect the way you are, and you could use a little bit of improvement. Usually we land on one or the other. Oh, I'm terrible. Oh, I'm great. And how dare anybody think that I should be any different. Or the other thing I always felt about Katagiri Roshi, which Dela would say about, Dela Goetze said about Suzuki Roshi, that she always felt that Suzuki Roshi was on her side.

[38:44]

Not that, you know, not that he agreed with her or anything like that, but he was always on her side. And there's something about that presence that I felt often with Katagiri Roshi is, we often disagreed about things, We're on the same side. Something. Which is, I think also, Leila was touching on. You mentioned that Teguri Roshi was a good match with his teacher Suzuki Roshi. Could you explain more what you mean? You used the word perfect. I'm wondering what that means.

[39:47]

I was actually quoting Mel, which is I think what Mel was saying was that they were models. And what I was trying to say earlier is it's not that, wow, Be the perfect teacher is great, and it's in a vacuum. The perfect teacher needs the perfect student, or else he's not the perfect teacher. Each person needs to, each one of us has to take our own life. Not glom onto somebody else's life. So, that's what the Sangha is like. It's not just one If this temple was just Mel or just anybody, so what? It's this interaction between us in which we can each work together and inspire each other and work our hardest that gets the engine of Mahayana Buddhism going.

[40:57]

Each one of us And our job may be listening to the lecture. Our job may be talking in the lecture. Our job may be running the saw outside. Whatever. That's what I... That's what I... I don't know if I want to say something. But that's what I was projecting when he made his statement. I can't hear his name. Good example. You touched on part of his teachings was sort of following his heart or just what we should be doing is following wholeheartedly our life and you mentioned art.

[42:02]

and I'm curious about people who are artists, either visual artists or musical artists, or if you're a cook and you're just a cooking artist, that there's something in being satisfied for the production of a piece of art for its own sake, yet there's this other side of wanting to share it, and that potential trap that so many people have fallen into of wanting to express their art and show it to other people and being rejected. someone's like, say, Van Gogh, who just wanted to do his thing, and this, you know, rejection over his whole life, and had this ongoing discussion with this friend of mine, that even though his life was very miserable, that he, that sort of suffering that he did is, in a sense, greater than that, that it sort of is carried on for, you know, decades and decades. after that, and then part of me feels, no, because his life was so difficult, you know, and I really feel that, I mean, it's sort of an endless argument, you know, which is better, you know, all the art, or this one individual suffering, but could you comment on creating something for oneself, and being happy with that, or content, and turning it out to others?

[43:27]

Well, the problem with any will or intention, or hope, is not the hope itself, but what happens when it doesn't happen. We talk about equanimity. Equanimity, which is often the most important aspect, which we emphasize, which does not mean, the near enemy of equanimity. Equanimity does not mean, its near enemy is, I don't care. But what equanimity means is, if people don't like it, I don't like it. If nobody buys my paintings, they don't buy it. To want people to like my painting or people to want to show it, that's fine. But if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. It's a very complicated question, but that's my simple answer to it.

[44:28]

The problem with art is getting attached to it, not Wanting to do it, not caring about what each stroke is, or what each note sounds like, that is just your engagement. That's wonderful. But if it doesn't happen, or if somebody doesn't like it, what happens? That's the question. That's where our craziness, or as Katya Girish used to say, our crazy human world, where we're all trying to get something, comes up. Whether we do it in art or anything. Or in practice, what happens if we don't get the highest rankings? Or if our understanding is not recognized by everyone? Wow. They probably have a point. These are numberless.

[45:39]

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