Most of you know, this is a small version of Buddha's robe. Yeah. And I wear it just to feel, remind myself, remind you but primarily to feel that I'm speaking within a tradition I've inherited and evolving, but not a tradition I created. And I wear it mainly to remind myself that I speak in a tradition that I inherited and that I continue to develop, but not a tradition that I invented. So it's kind of crazy to wear, to symbolically wear Buddha's robe.

[01:10]

But if Buddha isn't a real possibility for us, the awakeness of Buddha, then there's not much meaning to what we're doing. Yeah, and I... I mean, in a way... Everything is simultaneously a ceremony and a constellation and an enactment. Yeah, so it's a little bit of a ceremony for me, a ritual to touch it to my forehead and crown it with my head. But it's an enactment of embodying it for myself as Buddha's role.

[02:18]

So it's not mine. When I put it to that, I'm giving it back to the tradition. Yeah, I mentioned that because it occurred to me to mention it because I think that is part of what we're talking about. And just as I was coming up here, I got a call from Atmar, Ikio Roshi at Johanneshof. And he said he had just arrived and he'd brought Neal McLean's ashes. And he discussed with me, he and Paul, Regent Rozier,

[03:34]

where they'll place Neil's ashes until the ceremony in a couple of weeks. Yeah. And yesterday I suggested you explore some words you use in imagining our functioning or how we function. And I mentioned that in the context of you would not say in Buddhism anything like the Socratic dictum to know thyself.

[05:03]

Yeah. Thy is a little ceremony to make it not your. So we could say to know yourself. Who else is? Yeah. Yeah, in German that's what we say. To know what? To know yourself. Yeah. Well, in English we say that too, but to give it an ancient feeling, we say thy. Yeah. And it puts it in the context of Socrates and Greece and so on. Und damit wird diese Aussage in den Zusammenhang von dem alten Griechenland und Sokrates gestellt.

[06:34]

Aber im Buddhismus würdest du weder das eine noch das andere sagen. Weil es nicht so etwas gibt wie Wissen oder Erkennen, wie Wissen. So in a way, one of the subjects here is, if we're going to look together at this relationship between yogic, zen, and mostly Western, but not entirely Western, psychology, Yeah, we need to notice small... I mean, it's... The differences are rooted in small differences. Because the real differences are rooted in small differences. And we can notice them more in small differences because of the specificity of the language and not the generalization of the language.

[07:55]

Yeah, we both say in all cultures, we say something like we're alive, but what that means as a generalization is quite different in different cultures. In East Asian yoga culture, the main meaning of aliveness is taking care of aliveness and not knowing aliveness. In the East Asian yogic culture, the most important meaning of being alive is to take care of being alive and not so much to recognize being alive or to know about it. It's just assumed you can be alive or something like that, but you can't know aliveness.

[08:56]

There's no vantage point for which you can know aliveness. So what I said last evening, was in the context of, for a yogic practitioner, it's about exploring one's life, not knowing one's life. So we have these Dimensions or targets for knowing, like psyche and soul and spirit and... Yeah, it's like... We have these dimensions or these goals for recognizing how the psyche, the soul or the spirit or the spirit

[10:27]

So I asked you to explore in your own experience, not from a point, those of you who are new, not from the point of view of a psychotherapeutic tradition, a psychological tradition, but rather in your own experience, how do you use these words if they jump into a sentence or into a dream? I heard that after I left last night from the darkened table with wine in the courtyard.

[11:30]

That you discussed some of these things. dass ein paar Gespräche dazu stattgefunden haben. Now it's rather brighter and we don't have wine, but let's continue the discussion. Jetzt ist es hell und wir haben auch keinen Wein mehr, aber lasst uns das Gespräch mal fortführen. Yes, please. How you yesterday used the words psyche and heart and spirit. I thought, well, I don't know what that is. I don't either. But if I make use of your insight that everything is activity and not entity, and that's something I actually always include in my thinking.

[13:03]

And how you've spoken about treeing and foresting. I thought that maybe psyche is also something like minding. Yes. In thinking and somehow in connection with the body, also a feeling arises. Yes. that it's easier for me to look at it this way than trying to find a definition that somehow goes beyond that.

[14:11]

Yeah, okay. But what has always inspired me here is to explore the ingredients of the process more. And this is a real experience for me, to bring this to clients, that we ourselves realize that it makes us so different. And that, and what, yeah. She's really gutting him. And that what clients bring to us as a therapist, but also, as I notice in myself, that sometimes there are these accumulations that what this gesture was for.

[15:14]

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And then everything tightens up somehow or gets denser and then it's a more limited form of a process. Or also penetrated by habits and fixations. And when this concerns, when this is about my own process, then I have a real interest to have this become looser again and so that it dissolves again. And maybe that's also our job as psychotherapists to help in that regard.

[16:15]

These were my thoughts. Okay. Yes. Can you speak in German first? Yes. You can speak in English yourself, but Deutsch first. To know is sometimes brilliant. It's telling me. You need to want to know, particularly when situations arise which are painful.

[17:26]

You're thinking, you're thinking kindly about the great concept. There's always a situation where you're getting stressed or you're getting teary. I know that there are also pieces, but in this piece I refer to an excerpt by Klaus Körner, a German ecophysicist, from his edition. And then what would they hide? And what would they say? And I remember that General Secretary Professor John Sterling, who said, looking back on this, with our experience, he was actually the most strong set of kids he watched.

[18:57]

And it helps parents to do things too quickly. To know what to do quickly and to do something quickly. And interestingly, as I said, when I first started that we should cultivate something Okay, thank you. Ich habe große Resonanz zu dem, was Christine gesagt hat.

[20:12]

Und in mir ist es, als ich heute früh versucht habe, ein Feeling von diesen Begriffen, die du gestern in den Raum gestellt hast, zu kriegen. I have a great resonance with what Christine said. And for me, when I tried to get a feel for these terms that you brought up yesterday... Was da aufgetaucht ist, ist... a sense of field, a sense of space, What arose was a field sensation, a spatial feeling of beingness. [...] And these words don't belong into this feeling, but they are more like at a distant horizon or something around it.

[21:22]

And in this field, for me, there are different bodies or ways of locating oneself, but that has nothing to do with what's meant by a body as Soma. And with these terms Soma and Psyche, I just saw the picture, they stand opposite each other, outside of the field, like two points that stand opposite each other. And with these words, Psyche and Soma, the way I saw it was as if they are standing outside of the field, they are standing in opposition to each other. And for me, that was much of a consequence from our Western views or Western culture, where it's almost, to me, a kind of violent separation or juxtaposition of these two terms.

[22:47]

Okay. I use... I'm raising my hand, yeah. Okay. First of all, I call it a mode of being, how my being feels at a certain moment, also very close to how I understood you. Sometimes it feels very tight and sometimes further or so. So maybe a state of my body-mind-feeling. Und in meiner Praxis geht es eigentlich häufig darum, das zu bemerken und da hinein die Möglichkeit für Shifts einzusetzen. Okay, when you spoke about shifts and I explore how do I approach shifting in my practice, what I notice is that for me, first of all, when I sit especially, but also in daily life, I notice something that I would either call a mode of presencing, a mode of presencing,

[24:15]

or a body-mind feeling, an overall body-mind feeling. Okay, this is what being this person feels right now. There's an overall feeling like that. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And then in practice, much of my practice is about noticing this feeling and then infiltrating it with potentials for shifts, with either, oh, this could be different, it could shift. Usually, for me, when I bring in this possibility, then the intention is always, it could... So for me in this bringing the possibilities into this existing noticed feeling, the directionality or the intention in it is For it, it could be more inclusive.

[25:23]

More could be part of this feeling. So there's a direction towards an opening or more inclusiveness. So I have a question about that. And the question is for me, what exactly is the connection, I have a feeling about this, but what exactly is the connection between worldviews? To what extent are these, what I now call body-mind feeling, to what extent is this an experience manifestation of worldviews? So the question here for me is to explore the relationship between, or how is this, in what sense is this body-mind feeling, as I'm calling it now, constituted or based upon worldviews? What is the role of views in the... Yeah. Yeah, okay, you got it. Good.

[26:25]

That's a question. question mark. The answer is it is. For now, okay? Yes. Also die Antwort ist es ist für jetzt. It is. Yes, Christa. Ich bin richtig glücklich über diese Thematik. I am very happy about this topic. Okay. I am retired now and I somehow kept having this idea that once I am retired I can start doing psychotherapy again. And now my experience is like I'm standing in front of a scattered pile when something is broken and it's all lying in front of you.

[27:38]

And I have no sense, no idea about what it is that has broken there, that's now lying broken in front of me. And I was already there last weekend and the topic that is now going on was already hinted at a bit at the end last weekend. And I was here last weekend and the topic that is continuing now was mentioned or begun to be discussed towards the end last weekend. And I noticed that that makes me happy. And I have some sense that maybe this topic will have some effect on my pile of broken pieces.

[28:43]

Okay. And I have an interest or a need maybe, not so much for myself to explore in the categories of Soma and Psyche, Because it again suggests old structures. And I am now looking for what is actually valid between these terms. And I am searching for what is effective or active underneath these terms.

[29:56]

And also in between. Or in between. Yeah, yeah. And again, these are just terms. find connectedness and separateness. But what I would find, just as an in-between step, interesting, is to look at connectedness and separation, separateness. Jack? Mir fällt bei dem Thema etwas ein, was Joseph Klingbeck gesagt hat. Er hat gesagt, in unserer Kultur it is customary to look for the meaning, and in his opinion, the search for the meaning is a concocted variant of experiencing selflessness, and it is actually about experiencing selflessness.

[31:02]

About the topic, something that comes to mind for me is a quote from Joseph Campbell, who said that in our culture it is common to look for meaning, meaning of life. And from his point of view, to look for the meaning is just a head-headed, a head... A head-off problem. No, no, no. A headed, a head version. Yeah. Like it's in your head. Yeah. A head version of really what you're looking for is aliveness. Yeah. Yeah. So I said headed off. Oh, I see. Which is a little joke. Oh, I see. That you're pushing it in the wrong direction. Yes. I am very happy about the topic so much.

[32:13]

I am very happy about the topic. And I've looked into this morning, how did this arise or develop before psychotherapy? Exactly. And then I came to this time of 1880, when the conversations between Breuer and Freud began in Vienna, and there was actually no And so I looked again at the time around 1880 when Breuer and Freud started having conversations about these issues and there was no psychoanalysis yet.

[33:17]

Breuer was an old medical doctor. He was around 40, but he felt very old. He was even scared of dying, and that was one of his topics, but he didn't dare to make it a public topic of his. It was about the destroyed body and how to continue with very beautiful conversations. There was such a funny word about it. It was called Chinni Svibing. It was also called Chinni Svibing in English. Chinni Svibing. I know Chinni Svibing. That's how it was called. People were also asked to talk about it. So in this very early days, the whole topic was the disturbed body or the body out of kilter or something.

[34:31]

And how can you use, jetzt hast du seelische Gespräche gesagt, how can you use the conversations, the inner conversations, in German we here use the word soul, soul conversations. Mm-hmm. to restore balance in the off-kilter body. Now, do you speak about psyche conversations or only soul conversations? Initially, really only the word soul was used until only later on psychology became a real science and a field within the soul. So would you say, just looking at how we embody a word, would you say, I had a soul conversation with someone, just naturally, but then would you say I had a psyche conversation? Is there a different feeling?

[35:33]

Yeah, OK. OK, so several things happening here. That's not unusual. She says, let me maybe get back to what's current now. We do speak of a soul conversation, ein Seelengespräch, for instance. But you could say, in answer to your question, you could say it's a psychological, ein psychologisches Gespräch, kann man auch sagen, ein psychologisches Gespräch. Es ist besser, sagt Marc, um das nicht auf Präsenz zu schicken. And in her experience, or in how a group that she's part of developed, they've come back to speaking, there's a more wholesome feeling, a more inclusive feeling of saying that it's a soul conversation.

[36:44]

Yeah. So what I'm looking at is these words are used as synonyms often, but in actual experience, our body doesn't use them as synonyms. What I'm looking at here is that these words are usually used as synonyms, but if we look at our actual experience of these words, then they are not synonyms. I'm always happy when you talk about something like that and when we talk about something like that now. Very much. I am always very happy when you speak about things like this and when, like, we now speak about... And literally everyone who spoke now started out with, I am happy. And for a little while now, I've been wondering, where is this joy coming from?

[37:54]

The sense of uplifting, like a big inhalation or something. And I have a theory about that, of course. The expression is already embodied. To express it, to say it, already is embodiment. And to say it together in dialogue with one another. That is fun, and it's alive. That is praxis. That's practice. Okay. And last night I thought I was a little shy to bring up these words which are your profession and I'm just amateur sitting at the periphery. But I do have the feeling we have to look at our own culture in order to look at another culture.

[39:01]

And, yeah. I'm also happy. I'm happy too. Because there's a slight evilness arising. about the topic of Psyche and Soma. Because if I really take this recognition that everything is activity into a bodily field, that then actually it's led into absurdity.

[40:27]

The distinction between soma and psyche is led into absurdity. And from that, looking at it with this in mind, from this background, I find it interesting to wonder what has led us to make this distinction. It is interesting to see what our cultural roots have to do with it. For example, in the context of the subject of freedom of speech, there is the notion of the entities that he believes in or does not believe in. And that's where I find your question very interesting about what are the roots of our culture within relationship to theology, the role of theology and the entities that we have believed in.

[41:50]

And my suspicion is maybe this may be too reductionist, but my suspicion is that basically this is about a transcendence of the body, a wish to go beyond the body, which is at the root of this Also because the early Christian tradition went strongly into this direction with asceticism and so forth. But that's also something that occurred in Buddhism. Yeah, I think it would take a little time to compare a Christian idea of asceticism and a Buddhist idea of asceticism.

[43:09]

Yeah, just simply, Buddhist asceticism is based on that you don't need anything which is rather different than restricting yourself for something like that. But it's just a sentence that is the joy of not needing anything. But I do think we need to go beyond the body or notice that we need something, which is we're late for taking a break. I have a question. Okay, thank you very much.

[44:10]

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