So you don't believe in it, so I don't have to say anything. I didn't read it, so you can put it down. Well, if you... kick a soccer football, the brain lights up in a particular way. If you watch someone else kick a football, your brain lights up in an almost identical way. If you think, I'll kick a football, your brain lights up similarly. I first, in some way, noticed this in myself because I noticed that in a dream, if I stumble, my body tries to grab something So even in a dream, the image of doing something has a physical, on the edge of physicality.

[01:15]

It explains now why Athletes had learned in recent decades to train by visualizing each step of the race as well as by racing. But I think that it has to be a visualization process which is on the edge of embodiment. And perhaps it's even necessary to first physically know the experience to have the mirroring work strongly.

[02:20]

But this does seem to be no other animal and no chimpanzee or bonobos has this ability. It's unique to us humans and probably why culture passes so effectively among us. And this is not observed in any other animal than in chimps and bonobos. And maybe this is the reason why the culture is passed on in such an effective way. Okay. Yes. In the context of ritual, I am interested in two aspects, two areas. When we work therapeutically, be it translation or something else,

[03:41]

In systemic work, we very carefully explore what the directedness of the client is, the intention. How long did it take you to become both a client and a therapist? Were you more like a physical or tangible therapist? We do that until the client as well as the therapist have an almost physical experience of what that could be. Not only almost. No, really. And then And then in the process, it's then important to let go of this defining and let the process unfold from itself or by itself.

[05:10]

it seems to me that it's always going back and forth between defining and a certain kind of precision and then to completely let go And at some point, my feeling is that the process can unfold itself to such an extent, to the extent that the client allows it. And then sometimes a certain kind of confirmation is necessary to continue.

[06:30]

And what's going on here, the processes here, seem similar to me. Was mich beschäftigt ist noch ein Opfer... Wo haben wir zu zweit? Beim Halbmauer. I'm working with this idea of being even more daring, even more daring to play with that.

[07:37]

And I thought maybe you have some thoughts about that. Well, first, do you establish or get to know the intent through a constellation or prior to the constellation? How do you... Yeah, go ahead. You say to them, hey, what's your most request? And do you establish it through several meetings? Or just for the half hour before a constellation? Yeah. In an ongoing therapeutic process, it happens again and again.

[08:45]

And before a constellation, it happens. Sometimes during a constellation, it has to happen again. Mm-hmm. So now, would you say, is it the case that a constant... Now, what do I say? A systemic therapist, is that the term I should use? All right. Does a systemic therapist see a person like once a week, and then once a month there's a constellation, or there's some punctuation by constellations? Yes. Some clients will come once a month or maybe once in three weeks.

[09:50]

And then maybe we would do some consolation in this one-on-one situation without any representatives. Then the client has to take all positions, him or herself. So it becomes an embodied means of exploration. Then it becomes an embodied means of exploring something embodied. Exactly. In some clients, the process is longer than the exhibition group. And sometimes during an ongoing therapeutic process a client will come into a constellation group session. But it's also the case that sometimes there is a group and you see the client only once in that group for three days.

[11:01]

For three days? Yes. Oh, do they get to sleep? You mean three sessions and three days in a row? No, it's like a seminar of three days and everybody gets to do something. But you would still call that person a client? Well, yeah, maybe a good participant. Yeah. And then some of these people will come again later. But maybe after having been to such a group, when they then decide to have a longer or ongoing therapy, they may go to somebody else near where they live.

[12:02]

Mm-hmm. Okay. I wish that this had been available to me and to many of my students in the early days of the development of Zen Center. Someone else? Yes, so I would like to say to the topic that it has now become clear, Christine, that with the goal work, we have been asking the wonder question for so long, or the goal work, that we have really achieved a physical experience of the state of the goal. So what became clear to me is that really in working toward or in clarifying the goal, we work as long as to really get a physical feeling for what it is we ask this wonder question.

[13:23]

Until... Until... Well, you can experiment. Miracle questions. If a miracle could happen, what would you like? What you feel and you practice. Good question. And then what we have to drop is the verbal or language definition of this embodied miracle. And then we can go into the bodily work or constellation work in a new way.

[14:25]

So would you say that the more deeply recognize the intent is of the client, the more likely the consolation is going to be effective. And at the end of an exhibition, At the end of a constellation, we also take care that our bodily experience is made. By putting the client from a position of being an observer into the place of the constellation where he or she was represented.

[15:34]

I see. Someone else? Yes. If there's nothing to say, someone can work on their group. Putting the client into the consolation is like a test for him to see whether he's willing, able and willing to experience this truth body in this place. The body functions as a test.

[16:36]

Now, a friend of mine, Yes, go ahead. I wanted to ask, does this test pass and what happens to Helena, under some circumstances, that she doesn't work in the Breiten? Because we see, so to speak, this body of bareness. It's this test related to when Berthe Hellinger refuses to work with people because they're not in this truth body, and Siegfried said, no, no, when he refuses to work with them, that happens much earlier. Okay.

[17:38]

I just wanted to say that I have a friend... Robert Duncan. He's dead now, but he used to sort of tell fortunes sometimes. I don't know if Tarot decks talk to you. He knew a great deal about the Tarot. But he did it more as a parlor thing. Just playfulness. But the danger, he said, is people, we have an expression, to make the shoe fit. Do you have the same expression? It means like, even if the shoe doesn't fit, you'll squeeze your foot into it. As you can see, other people have overlapped toes and stuff like that.

[18:42]

So he said that it's too easy to tell fortunes because people are so ready to make the shoe fit. So you must have some... way to test the test to make sure the person isn't just, you know, sort of making the shoe fit. Oh yes, oh yeah, this feels like me and they're really not feeling anything. Yes. The body tells the truth because the body cannot hide when it doesn't fit.

[20:01]

That's great. You know, one of the... One of the... I don't know. In the Middle Ages, too, I think in Europe, in Buddhism, one of the signs of understanding is involuntary weeping. In the Middle Ages, this was also the case, but in Buddhism it is a sign of understanding that involuntary weeping And as any actor knows, it's very difficult to cry on command. And so it says in some sutras, Subhuti then burst into tears and wept.

[21:02]

hearing this truth. I would think that maybe something like somebody bursting into tears or something would be a sign that their body is actually... We're not so aware of that now, but there were times when, you know, people would start weeping and hearing things, and we can't tend to suppress that. We only do it in movies. It's dark. Okay. I have to... I always have to cry. Poor baby. I have begun my psychotherapeutic training in the school of Alfred Adler.

[22:09]

And the most important thing I still have with me, the only phrase I know by heart, sometimes the mouth lies, or the head goes wrong, or it goes, you know. I mean, airs. Airs, yeah. But the bodily functions always tell the truth. Yeah. Walter, did you... Were you going to say something? Did you want to say something? All you intelligent people have nothing to say. Yes, oh, one intelligent person. This is a measure of IQ that's going on here.

[23:22]

It's a measure? Sorry, but still have to. Yeah, a measure, yeah. Discussion quotient. I'm still dealing with a question that came up in the very beginning of the seminar. And you said something like, we do have the experience that body and mind are something different, distinct. We can experience them separately, is what I said. And... I'm working with the theory of distinction. And in this theory of distinction it is said that the space before distinction is made is empty.

[24:31]

So according to this theory, we only first make this distinction between body and mind, and then we experience it. Or how do you see it the other way round? The way you say it sounds like it's the other way round. I understand the problem. Well, if I say that's a leaf That's the leaf and that's the trunk. Did that exist before I said it or after I said it? I think in that case... He says the distinction doesn't exist before.

[25:47]

The difference exists before. Only with you. I'm not sure I agree with this philosophy. I'd have to see where it's coming from. I'd have to study it some. I mean, we first have to... I mean, we can get into too complicated a discussion here, but we would first have to look at the habit of distinction-making in a culture from birth. And it's certainly the case that if the culture, as one of the things I often point out, is our culture assumes a distinction between here and there.

[27:12]

And our culture assumes that space separates. So that distinction, implicit distinction, assumption, exists before the distinction is made perception. Because space also connects. And we don't notice that because we're programmed to see space as separating. So certainly we, you know, as Harry Roberts, my Caucasian Indian shaman friend, If a white man sees such and such in the bushes and there's nothing there, he assumes there's nothing there.

[28:26]

But the Indian sees something in the bushes and there's nothing there. He assumes there's something there he can't see. So those are cultural differences. Yeah, anyway. So I can't go further without having studied this philosophy. I'm assuming you're referring to Spencer Brown? Okay. Well, I've read him quite a bit, but I've never thought of it in those terms. And so before a distinction is made, there are many distinctions already there, or many differences.

[29:43]

Or possible. Oh, they're possible. But they are not made. Yeah, now you're getting closer to something I would agree with. G. Spencer Brown was introduced to me by Alan Watts, who was thrilled to meet me. Okay. We should have a break soon, but if somebody else wants to... Talking about distinctions, what came to my mind was this miracle question. It was a complete change in my work because the miracle question is only asked when the miracle question is asked. And that means that only when the space is open for the person I'm talking to to actually

[31:01]

to have a response to the miracle question and embody it. Only then have I asked the miracle question. And before that, I hadn't asked it. Sometimes I ask people who are in a dilemma, I try to avoid In Doksang, personal discussions about personal life matters. Doksang literally means to come alone to see someone. Anyway, so I sometimes ask people, or when people ask, in a situation, doesn't have to be dealt with, blah, blah, blah, yeah. But I say, take a snapshot of yourself in 10 years or 30 years or so.

[32:29]

What do you see in that snapshot? Do you see this person you're thinking of marrying in your snapshot or not? Do you see that you're married to this person in 10 or 30 years? Or I can wait and say, what kind of life do you want to look back on? That's similar to the miracle question. It amazes me that you intelligent people can be here present in all of this discussion and have nothing to say. When we need your participation. Zen has a good technique, though.

[33:41]

In the midst of ceremonies, I don't do that much. Where you're just doing the normal stuff, offering incense. You just turn around and you say to somebody, you, get in front of everybody and present a question. And if you can't have it, you shouldn't be practicing Zen. It's that simple. So it teaches you to always have a question on the edge of your mind, ready to, what's going on? It's that kind of aliveness. And where? I saw, she already put her hand in there.

[34:44]

I want to say something about that. I have come to points where I know what I feel. There is a process in which a field is beginning to fall. And the questions I have and I would like to ask, they don't necessarily fit into that field, and then there is not a... a feeling or atmosphere of allowance or encouragement or support. Yes, even that my person would support the person. Yes, okay, also that the question might not interfere with this process.

[35:55]

There is something with which I am very concerned, but I have the feeling that it was going somewhere else, and that would be like a clatter, There is a question I have, but it's not something I want to bring up because I feel it doesn't fit in with what has been said and I don't want to just put it in because then it's just a splash. But that means it doesn't... I think you can trust if it comes up in you. It probably fits in somewhere. And splashes are quite good. So do you have something you'd like to... Yes, go ahead. I moved around, turned from these phrases of Dogen's.

[36:58]

And that was actualized moment. Actualized moment. And then I started to investigate that and I asked myself, what is a moment? That led me to perception and the tiniest possible perception. And then there was a feeling of a kind of nebulous feeling or a swamp and that I get in touch with a kind of fullness.

[37:58]

And then there is something like an act of lifting this perception. It also feels like that this stream is more something that enters my body more below and then it comes up, this lifting is coming up. Yeah, and this is an interesting point, an exciting point, that this question of choosing, this lifting up and up is an act of choosing.

[39:22]

Or what in myself can do or perform this choice? First is it an act of choice or an act of allowing? It depends on who or what where the story chooses and I think this is something that happens in everyday life I've tried various things and I came to the breath And that's more like allowed.

[40:29]

Of course, if one doesn't practice, one hardly knows, one hardly has this choice. So I'm glad you said that, because that's where I want to come after the break. And I had an image that I was like a... What's the term? Needle's eye. Eye of a needle. Yeah, the eye of a needle. who it is ready many manifoldness or plentitude is like me has to be that where the stream enters and is then given form, then it is thin and maybe that's what reaches up into consciousness.

[41:37]

And awareness is more something like that reaches deep down. Awareness can just be present or can accompany this process. So that the feeling of this richness or fullness can still be maintained. Okay. I'm going to take this just as your experience, which sounds accurate. And it's important I want to come back to it in various ways when we look at this. Yes? Yes. So I want to make such a splash about this bush in which there is nothing.

[43:03]

That has to do with what I read in Dogen's text. The message for me was that the now is also just in the past, is only a memory. When this usual point of reference is taken away from us or is taken away from me, what then? What is there?

[44:03]

In the inspiration of this seminar and your words, let arise in myself the feeling of antennas. Wow. OK, well, again, since this pertains to this thing, I'll look at it afterwards. Ulrike waved both her long sleeves at me, so whatever. Like a cat. But I have the same feeling as Andrea, like Andrea said.

[45:29]

So that there is something there over the course of two days, but the process led somewhere else. Now I'm willing to splash around. Okay, yeah, bring it back, splash around. There was this part of a phrase that I would like to hear more about it, to hold back attention to the source, something like that. Well, again, I think there are various ways I perhaps can speak about that after the break. But in that case, in the more specific sense that came up, I was referring to when you bring attention away from discursive thinking, back to the body,

[46:42]

the source of the attention is in the body.

[46:45]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_76.71