Well, it'd be nice for me if you continued some of your discussion of yesterday. Not necessarily repeat it, but continue some of it in our larger group. Yes, Felix. I complained yesterday in our group about all the things I haven't achieved yet. Well, I've done that, but I usually don't tell anybody else.

[01:02]

And then someone pointed out to me that I ought not to be too strict with myself. But that it's about loving oneself and that touched me. Yeah, if you're going to love someone, you might as well start with yourself. Especially if you expect anyone else to love you. How can someone else love you if you don't love yourself? It depends what you mean, of course, but you get the gist. Yeah. Yeah, I was just looking at you and beating my heart. Okay.

[02:27]

Yes, Nico? I found it interesting. We spoke about the relationship between practice and language. practice and words and the different views approaches to how to use words in order to foster practice activities whether it's words that are the trigger to start to practice, or whether it's a bodily request to practice.

[03:40]

And that was a seeming contradiction. And there seemed to be some resistance not so much to use words to further practice but to use words to describe practice experiences. There was some resistance in you Or from whom? Maybe me too. But from me? You? I don't know. Everyone was coming to you with their resistances. Well, that's what I used to think. But I've discovered that no, I don't want to think that words can describe practice.

[05:09]

But I think sometimes it's useful to use words to notice your practice. But I think that it is sometimes useful to use words to notice the practice. Simple things like notice if you sit a little longer than 20 minutes, maybe it affects you differently. But if you use words to describe practice, to think the description is the practice, then of course that's inaccurate. But all advanced practice depends on language. Or certain suggestions you wouldn't come to yourself.

[06:32]

So there's suggestions which initiate a Dharma door, perhaps we could say, but don't tell you where you're going. So I could say that practice develops sort of through the basics, sitting still and so forth and so on, and sitting regularly, That allows a certain level of practice to develop. Level of practice. But beyond that level you need the teachings of wisdom and usually a teacher. But beyond this level, you need the teaching of wisdom and usually also a teacher.

[07:45]

Yes? We also have the same experience with the non-self-reliant mind. Together we looked at thought experiences of non-self-referential thinking, but maybe not so much thinking but non-self-referential experiences. And I actually looked around a little bit, until I got the idea that I actually probably have more problems with it than I am aware of, because I am not so self-centered without this self-centeredness and I am not so aware of it. And after searching for some time, I realized that I probably have more experience with that than I'm aware of, because when I'm non-self-referentially experiencing, then I'm probably not quite as conscious of that experience than when there's a self present.

[09:09]

And then of course an example that Lens itself is making music. And some of us have had experiences, not so much during working on a piece and trying to learn the piece, but more when performing a piece. And one image one could use for that is that more or less people could be a small group or a larger group as if they are in the same boat and venture out into the water together. and then there's although there's one person who ought to direct the boat

[10:22]

But unfortunately that can't be predicted entirely since these are all humans and then totally unpredictable and unexpected things may happen. And then depending upon the degree to which one is willing to renounce one's self, the more things then still work out. And then we found that what happens then is a kind of flow experience. Can you hear her in the back? Really, I can't believe the acoustics in this room. Go ahead.

[11:34]

Because I can barely hear you. And when we tried an emotion, positive, negative or neutral, then that led us to quite different experiences. Also unterschiedlich voneinander, different from each other. Yeah, when I see Gisela, I think my daughter Sophia is a little bit gifted at music, at piano playing and for a while playing the cello. And she's observant and has a good ear. And the piano teacher can do something one week and say, please practice this.

[12:46]

And the next week she can do it and she didn't practice. And to some extent she did that with the cello too. But Gisela changed the name of the game. She said, did you notice the posture of your hand? Did you notice this and that? She needed help. And you changed the way she played. We live in an overlapping world, generationally overlapping, and individually. It's like somebody who says, well, I can do Zazen anywhere.

[13:57]

Well, of course that's true, but he couldn't do Zazen anywhere unless there were generations of people who did Zazen before him. So it's just Zazen and art are like many things. You can do it completely alone and yet it is still completely embedded in our minds. generational practices. Okay, someone else? Yes, Susanna. I was also in that group and I would like to come back to this term flow, which me being a little older already wasn't so familiar to me the term.

[15:08]

It's a very modern term, I think, but... It's I think a pretty modern term and it wasn't used throughout my life much. And we found that there are different ways to access flow. And what was interesting for me was that there's the suggestion of curiosity. Then my experience that I can only get there through crisis season. And I used to think that that's the only path there, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

[16:46]

But there is a point when the tide turns, or the, what do you say? Yeah, you can say that. Of course. Yes. That would be the term flow at the moment. What moved me in addition was the term Hichirio. And Dida has a very good I found a translation that I can't get back. You should do that again. For this immeasurable thinking, which for me always goes very into thinking, and with that I can't get through. And Dieter found a very good translation for this term, which I can't repeat, though he would have to do that, to say unmeasured thinking has too much of an emphasis on thinking for me, and that doesn't work so well.

[17:57]

And I think he even said that the English word thought has a different atmosphere, maybe a different connotation than the German word denken. Just personally speaking, that cost me three hours of sleep last night. Apparently my subconsciousness was working pretty hard and I was trying to turn this word back and forth and left and right.

[18:58]

I've had similar experiences. So that's my request to you, but I don't know if there's time today to return to this expression. Well, how did you translate it, Dieter? I just translate it character by character. So he is something like what follows isn't the case. It's negation. So I have translated it as negation. And this here means so much like that which follows is not so. If you translate it that way, it's not so that. And when she is thinking, she has to think. And is to measure.

[20:00]

And the term is used in colloquial language in a kind of In a negotiation, or you watch things from different sides and think about the consequences. So a thought like, I have to go to the toilet, that's not sheer work. Also, it's so necessary that you hear something here, or something from different sides, and you look at the connection. And such a thought as, oh, I have to go to the toilet, that's not sheer work. And Susanne just said that the German and the English thought is not quite true. That's not quite true.

[21:01]

What I said is that traditionally in Sanskrit and Pali, so in Sanskrit and Pali traditionally, So thought is something in Pali Sanskrit that contains every mental impulse. So an emotion or an idea or an intuition is also a thought. So an impulse, an intuition, or an idea is also a thought. It's not only what we think sometimes, that thinking is just thinking in words and discursive, but that it's mental in process. I think you said more in German than you said in English.

[22:17]

No. No? Exactly. All right. Well, it sounded like more words. That may be the case, yeah. Would that also be a dream image, like during Zazen? Yeah, well... I think, at least in English, thoughts tends to mean causal thoughts in a discursive sense. So I think in English you have to say mental formations. Im Englischen müsste man dafür, glaube ich, mental formations, im Deutschen vielleicht mentale oder geistige Formationen oder Gebilde. Yeah, but now if we're talking about how to translate this into a practice, a Dharma door into a practice craft...

[23:30]

What I really mean is to notice within a field of knowing which is not thinking. Thinking. Because mature practice functions within a field of knowing which is not thinking. Like an extreme example would be blind sight. Where you know without cognitive processes. But that's all a little bit complicated to practice, so I have made it as simple as to notice without thinking.

[24:56]

But you'll have to all tell me if that works for you or not. Of course, you have to make it work in German. I'm trying to make it work in English. Now, the word notice I often spell with a K, so it's canotus. So it's a knowing noticing. And then, to add, without thinking is a physical act to withdraw thinking from the noticing. That's what kind of act? An act to withdraw thinking from the noticing. Thank you. Okay, so... Yeah, so I...

[26:06]

Of course, again, as you know, all of this is an experiment for me. Does it work for you, etc.? That works for me pretty well. And I think the effect is what Dogen wanted. Yeah. In that regard I found it very helpful when you said to give change depth through stillness. and I think what before one would perceive as being noisy. That's exactly this cognitive process of categorizing according to preferences and dislikes and so forth.

[27:49]

And that through stillness or silence there is an immediacy in experience That's a kind of knowing, but without fixating. Okay, thanks. So this is a good example of, you're not going to get to hishiryo just by practicing naturally. We need the language to suggest the direction of practice. Yeah, and of course in the depths of this is also American and European individualism. How do we develop Buddhism and in a way which supports the healthy individualism we have in the West?

[29:05]

And simultaneously the depth we need with others to really develop something subtle. and at the same time the depth that we need with others to really develop something subtle. The Beatles are perhaps a good example of this. Not a single one of them could have made this music like this. It took this group to make the music like this. So, I mean, the concept of the teacher in, you know, excuse me because I'm supposed to be a teacher, but the concept of the teacher in Asia is someone who you develop a flow with, let's say, that's something like an ideal relationship with your father or mother or something like that.

[30:30]

So this concept of a teacher, and excuse me, because I should be a teacher, to say this, a teacher is someone with whom you develop a kind of flow, so in the way as perhaps with the ideal father or the ideal mother. It's a connectivity which isn't spousal or parental, but something that in much of, you know, yogic Asia is considered as essential as having a parent or a spouse. Das ist eine Art von Verbundenheit oder Verbindungskraft vielleicht, die weder partnerschaftlich noch elterlich ist. In Zen, I'm happy to say the emphasis is primarily on a friendship of depth and not a guruship. I don't want to be a guru, no thanks.

[31:39]

A kind of openness and transparency that is more of a friendship than, yeah, you understand. Eine Art Offenheit und Transparenz, die eher eine Freundschaft ist. Well, you know, we're running out of Sunday. It's getting, you know, Sunday is getting shorter and shorter. Der Sonntag wird immer kürzer. And we haven't even warmed, no, I guess we've warmed up. Wir sind noch nicht mal warm gelaufen. Naja, doch, vielleicht sind wir warm gelaufen. I appreciate the our discussion this morning. In this context of this field we have occasioned here, I see the possibility of saying some things. But also, it's really, to whatever extent I can, and I listen through your silence, but also, to whatever extent I can, I'd like to know what you want to hear.

[33:18]

And as far as possible, and I also listen to your silence, as far as possible, I want to hear what you want to hear. So the discussion helps me hear what you want to hear. So let me just say two things and then we'll have a break. One, someone asked me very simply, I said, what would you like me to speak about this morning in the hall in Johanneshof? And they said, spaces. Not a they, it was a he or a she, but let's call it they. Yeah, and I immediately thought of the roundabouts, roundabouts? In the cars, yeah. The roundabouts in Colorado. Yeah. In Colorado, you know, is the state in which the front range of the Rockies happens.

[34:31]

So where do you... America is sort of a huge Kansas, flat, tornado land. Wait. Kansas? Kansas. Kansas is a state. You don't mean a word Kansas. Not a canvas, a Kansas. Okay, I'm sorry. North Dakota, South Dakota, et cetera. It's a huge flat land and suddenly in Colorado it goes up to thousands of feet high. You can sit on the edge of the thing and look and see almost a Chicago. And then the mountains start and continue toward California.

[35:42]

And then the mountains start and continue toward California. In the roundabouts, they put rocks. They think they're imitating Japan. So in the roundabouts, they put rocks that look like mountains. And they just pile them together to make sort of mountains of this rock and this rock. And they think it has something to do, they never had the idea before Japanese stuff came into the country. They think it has something to do with Japanese rock gardens. And basically it has nothing to do with Japanese rock.

[36:59]

And why? Because rock gardens are about embodiment. They're not about entities. They're about your experience of embodiment. So if you put spaces between the rocks, then immediately it's a more complex event. You feel, oh, I could squeeze between that rock and on that rock there's a hole and a tunnel and so forth. Like a beautiful coastal where you can see the oceans gone into the rocks and made holes and tunnels and stuff. So spaces allow embodiment.

[38:04]

So you can feel yourself moving in it. If it's just a pile of rocks, all you can do is see it. And it's not big enough to climb. Now, one other thing is people speak to me about bringing attention or giving or paying attention to their breath. As if here's the breath or the heartbeat or something like that. And you bring attention to it. Well, in the beginning, it's like that.

[39:12]

But actually, really, you feel the breath from here. You don't have to bring attention to it. But actually, you feel the attention from here, from inside. You don't have to pay attention to it. It's like a pregnant woman. I would guess, I mean, one of the reasons I wish there was such a thing as rebirth is because I'd like to come back as a woman. I was just reading the other day of how you can't really distinguish between male and female braids. There's a spectrum where it's more likely to be a woman, but actually there are a mix of male and female aspects.

[40:15]

I'm sure my brain is that way. I wish it were more feminine. But it doesn't help me have a baby. Okay, so if I imagine having a baby, I'm sure I'd be always aware there's a human being in my tummy. I wouldn't have to bring attention to it. I would just feel it from inside. So once you really your attention is within your breath. It's like you're pregnant with non-self. Okay. Thank you very much.

[41:25]

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