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Embodied Wisdom in Zen Therapy
Seminar_Zen_and_Psychotherapy
The talk explores the intersection of Zen philosophy, particularly through the lens of undivided activity as presented by Dogen in "Zenki," and its implications for Western psychotherapy. The discussion emphasizes the simultaneity of Western and yogic views on knowing, highlighting how different modes of knowing—near-at-hand knowledge, basic knowledge, and the immediacy of coming into being—inform practice both in Zen and therapy. The role of experiential truth and the embodied experience of attention through breath is examined, suggesting that therapists might benefit from understanding these dynamics to enhance their practice.
Referenced Works and Concepts:
- "Zenki" by Dogen: Explores the concept of undivided activity, framing life and death as inseparable, which serves as a core philosophical foundation for understanding truth and knowledge in Zen practice.
- Yogic Culture: Referenced to contrast and compare different categories of knowing with Western thought, highlighting the importance of recognizing experiential and embodied truth.
- Oxherding Pictures: Symbolically used to represent the journey and insights of ordinary life in Zen thought, particularly through the image of a boy riding an ox backward, suggesting a reorientation towards seeing the world differently through practice.
- Samantabhadra: Symbolically represents bodhisattva practice and the interaction of practitioner and animal essence, used as an analogy for understanding interconnectedness within meditative awareness.
Overall, the talk invites practitioners to explore the interconnectedness of knowing, being, and practice, and how these principles can be applied to both personal enlightenment and therapeutic contexts.
AI Suggested Title: Embodied Wisdom in Zen Therapy
Oh, by the way, I just received the information, not that you need to know, that my middle daughter, Elizabeth, is pregnant. Yikes! The lottery of life is a little scary. I mean, every time a baby is born, I think, what luck. And her first child is quite a wonderful girl. I consider myself more male than I need to be, but I keep having daughters and granddaughters. Who knows?
[01:08]
Yeah, but my first granddaughter, Paloma, I think I told you this before because... When she was two, just as an example of what kind of a little kid she is, there was a full moon that was particularly visible in the Bay Area, California, San Francisco. When she was two years old, and this is just an example to tell you what kind of a little girl she is, there was a full moon that was particularly visible in the Bay Area, in San Francisco. So they all went out to look at the full moon and so Paloma said, where's the broken one? Well, a few days from now it'll appear. Anyway, so she sings for the San Francisco Opera and many local operas in the Bay Area and
[02:13]
I don't know how she's going to manage to sing and have two babies. She sings for the San Francisco Opera and also for many smaller productions in the Bay Area. And I don't know how she can manage to have two children and at the same time continue to sing. Yeah. And once I said to her, you have a baby and you're giving birth to someone who has to die. And that creates a life, having to die. I think, again, some of you know I was in a plane recently. It was on the way to here, not here, but Zurich. And there was a big storm in New York, so hundreds of planes couldn't land.
[03:40]
So we were circling around Atlantic City and so forth, and all the planes were running out of gas. I'm sitting in my little seat by an emergency door. It wouldn't help. I thought... We have to land somewhere. We landed in Washington, D.C. instead of New York. So all of us have to land somewhere. No. No. What I'm trying to do, and let me say that one of my sadnesses in stopping formal teaching is that I really, like right now, as usual, I'm working out what to say, these dynamics of practice,
[04:53]
our shared life together with you. I don't know what to say. I keep working out with you, and I won't be able to do that in the same way in the future. So I'm going to have to find other ways to explore these things. Okay. So if I try to enter into our mutual exploration, I might say that what is truth? Well, it's interesting. I think that there's only provisional truth in yogic culture. I mean, practically speaking, there's something that are true.
[06:19]
You know where your address is and stuff like that. But if something's true in yoga culture, and I'm just trying to create some contrast here, It can only be everything that's here. In other words, the fact, the facticity or the fact of everything I mean, if there's something true, it has to be the fact of everything. No. What assumptions are there in such a statement? Well, one assumption is there's no God space, as I say, or outside space from which you can create everything.
[07:45]
So as I say, there's no out there-ness, there's only... out here-ness. Ich würde sagen, es gibt kein außerhalb davon, kein außen. Es gibt nur ein... You want to say out here-ness, not in here-ness. The out here-ness in German makes sense. Well, you can say in-here-ness. That's up to you. But in-here-ness implies there might also be an out-there-ness. Okay. Yeah. Also, schauen wir mal, probiert selber aus. Also, wörtlich übersetzt würde er sagen, es gibt nur ein hier draußen. Vielleicht fühlen wir das besser, wenn wir sagen, ein hier drinnen.
[08:49]
Weiß ich nicht. Es gibt kein außerhalb von, sondern nur ein hier drinnen oder ein hier draußen. I mean, noticing in English, we all have an in-here-ness. That doesn't mean there's no out-there-ness. Okay, yes, that's true. Now, this isn't just... This isn't just playing around with words. If I say always elsewhere, out there, I mean, that's what my body starts to believe. If I took as a discipline never again to say out there, Wenn ich mir als Disziplin angewöhnen würde, dass ich niemals wieder da draußen sage.
[09:59]
But only to say something equivalent in English to an out here-ness. Sondern immer nur irgendein equivalent von ein hier draußen. You train your body in effect to function in the world differently. For example, an image I've been using recently, only a few months, but it seems to make sense. if in swimming, the swimmer made the water by swimming in it, that would be like our relationship to space. So this room has made space, but each of us is making this space. It doesn't exist separate from us.
[11:00]
Okay, so let's go back to everything that is has to be the beginning of what is truth. Gehen wir nochmal zurück zu, alles was ist, muss der Ausgangspunkt von dem sein, was Wahrheit ist. Okay. So then in traditional Buddhism, the methodology by which you realize truth is the truth. The methodology is the truth. So, in other words, how can we know everything all at once, or everything as it is? So if the truth is everything that is, then can we not know everything that is?
[12:27]
We human beings instinctively want to know what's going on. So we try to know everything that is. And it's the analysis of everything that is that leads to the concept of emptiness. In other words, we can't know everything that is exactly, but we can know everything that is arises from a common space-source emptiness. Now that sounds like philosophy, and it is a kind of philosophy.
[13:30]
But it means that experientially, you feel everything appearing. In other words, if the truth is everything as it is, then everything as it is as it appears to you experientially is the truth. In anderen Worten, wenn die Wahrheit alles ist, was ist, dann bedeutet das in der Erfahrung, dass die Wahrheit alles ist, was dir und wie es für dich erscheint. Okay. So, in this, what I'm speaking about here is again, how do we know? Worüber ich hier spreche, nochmal, ist die Frage, wie erkennen oder wie wissen wir?
[14:36]
Or, How do we put ourselves in the midst of knowing? Now I think this question of how do we place ourselves stand in the midst of knowing is one of the Dharma doors or way to join to look at the simultaneity of the Western views and yogic views. Okay. Now, if in yoga culture the categories of knowing are different than in Western culture, then this would be, I think, quite important for the therapist, is how do we
[15:49]
How does the therapist enter the field of knowing, field of knowing, let's call it that, because activity requires a field. Wie tritt ein Therapeut in das Feld des Erkennens ein? Und nennen wir das mal das Feld des Erkennens, weil erkennen ein Feld ist. How does the therapist enter the field of knowing with a client or with a friend? How do I enter a field of knowing with you right now? With us right now? When I sat down on the couch with Suzuki Roshi, he helped establish a field of knowing. Okay, so what are the categories of knowing? In yogic culture. From early Buddhism to later Buddhism, the categories are similar.
[17:06]
One category of knowing is what's near at hand. What we sort of know together right now. When Sophia came, I mentioned this the other day, when Sophia came, who's now 17, when Sophia came when she was two or three, I can't remember, she was born in Colorado, And we'd been in Creston from Johanneshof for a little while. Mostly we'd been in Colorado. Yeah, so when we went, came back to Creston, to Johanneshof, Sophia told us she didn't remember anything about Jan Sok.
[18:26]
But she had a room and she had toys and things like that. She couldn't remember anything about Jan Sok. But we unlocked the door, went in, she knew everything. She went to her room and found her toys and her bed and so on. So this would be knowledge near at hand. Not just mentally or memory, not just you can reproduce it mentally, but your body knows it. So one category is what's near at hand. Okay, okay. The second category is basic knowledge. This is I'm presenting. Okay.
[19:44]
Basic knowledge is... Dogen tries to speak about basic knowledge in this classical Zenki I mentioned earlier. Undivided activity. It's translated as undivided activity. Okay. Okay. Now, it's interesting, it sounds like this is completely obvious. So how can I make something so obvious also an insight?
[20:51]
Even an enlightenment shift. Dogen says something like undivided activity is inseparable from life. And undivided activity is inseparable from death. Okay, well, so what? And for me, without having read Zenki in many, many years, 20 or 30, I had the insight, which is what Zenki is about.
[21:53]
Again, you'll have to tell me if I capture the feeling of this. My daughter, Elizabeth, who's pregnant, says she gets $20 for every time I mention I'm going to die. I owe her quite a lot of money. Okay. Because it's interesting and amusing I'm going to die. I know. All right. So one day I just happened to feel... I really felt poignantly how all of this that I'm seeing is going to be gone to me.
[23:06]
So that's step one. Step two is, I thought, well, it's all going to continue after I'm gone. Okay. Well, that seemed good. It was going to continue after I'm gone. I can imagine you guys doing something while I'm gone. So that was step two. And then step three, I thought... Well, after I'm gone, it's going to be there, be somewhere, be here where. I like the pun of here where because dish where are dishes you use.
[24:10]
Oh my goodness. So here-ware is stuff that's here that you can use, like dishware, silverware, and so forth. You don't have to deal with that. What? I translated it for you. Okay, okay. Yes, exactly. So, you understood, right? You all speak English, right? Well, not somewhere, but here, where? And now in English, where, wo, the same as... The same as ware, so something you can use. So here ware. It exists. Here ware. Here wo, here ware. If you can say that, we can do that too. And again, I'm playing with words just because I happen to do that, but it's also the case that the words don't fit this actual world.
[25:34]
So I have to kind of like keep stretching the words to fit experience. So the step three was to recognize that what's going to be gone to me when I'm gone right now is still present. So the world after I'm dead is already here. I mean, I see it every day. So suddenly I felt I'm living in the world after I'm dead. And this was a real experience.
[26:39]
I'm living in the world after I'm dead. Okay, so what this means... And what that means is that it's only possible for somebody who feels that this is also their world, their aliveness. We don't want a distinction between body and mind. Body and mind is a delusionary distinction. And I mean, as I've said the other day, my hand. Hello. Thank you for being here. My hand and my foot are rather similar in lots of ways.
[27:43]
Yogically, for a yoga practitioner or a reflexology practitioner, they're somewhat different. But my hand and foot are in the same physical spectrum. And mind and body are in the same spectrum. They're just different parts of the spectrum. So there's no mind without a body, and there's no body without a mind. Okay. Okay. So we can't, in English, we don't really want to say mind and body.
[29:03]
We want to say body-mind and mind-body or something like that. Wir wollen nicht wirklich von Körper und Geist sprechen, sondern von Körpergeist oder Geistkörper. So it's not about embodiment. You don't need to embody. Embodiment is an attentional experience and an evolution, but you are a body. Und jetzt geht es auch nicht wirklich um Verkörperung, He used to say occasionally, you don't notice your stomach until it hurts. Yeah, I thought, well, that's true. Don't think about my stomach until I have a stomachache. But he was also saying, coming from yogic culture, that the silence of the organs are the truth of our aliveness.
[30:11]
So the silence of the world that you don't have to name, it's going on. That's undivided activity. So Dogen says in this fascicle, You go out in a boat. And you use the sail to get the boat to move. And you use a rudder or the sails to steer the boat. But still, you're dependent on the boat. It's still the boat. So from what Dogen's pointing out is the boat is undivided activity.
[31:12]
The boat is unimportant. Once you're in the boat, it's the boat that's making this possible, not your steering or your sails. So what he's trying to say is something like what he's calling undivided activity is the boat is the undivided activity. And there's this ongoing activity Undivided activity which is supporting us. It supports our living and it supports our dying. And it's inseparable from our living and dying. Now, on the one hand, it seems...
[32:31]
Could anything be more obvious? But when you feel this undivided activity always present, that's a form of knowing. Yamada Mumon Roshi, my teacher when I was practicing Rinzai in Japan, he said, the single most important thing to know is to acknowledge and really be grateful for that everything, all at once, is making your life possible. This is also what Dogen meant by undivided activity. So if undivided activity is the basic knowing that's going on,
[33:53]
then participating in undivided activity is a form of knowing. I don't know if I got the feeling of that across, but I tried. Okay, so how does this affect someone's actions, like Suzuki Roshi talking to me on the couch? I sit down on the couch with him. Okay, we're in the modality of near-hand knowing. I came in the door, I obviously opened it, I know how to sit on the couch.
[35:11]
But he wanted to shift me out of the near at hand knowing modality. So basically he shifted the topic to, you know, many practitioners think they're still, they're still, but they're not. Now, if he didn't think in terms of these categories of knowing, he wouldn't have made that shift. Okay. All right, now what is the third, in this way I'm speaking, mode of knowing?
[36:35]
And the third modus of knowing, or mode of knowing, is everything coming into being, something coming into being. At each moment, things are coming into being. Right now, we're coming into being. So what that means is that you're engaged in immediacy. If the most fundamental category of truth is everything as it is, Wenn die grundlegendste Kategorie der Wahrheit ist, alles so wie es ist, your entry into a dynamic of everything as it is, is immediacy.
[37:43]
Dann ist dein Zugang zu und die Dynamik von allem was ist, ist die Unmittelbarkeit. Now, if psyche and soul, spirit and anima are all words for breath or something like that, Wenn Psyche, Seele, Anima und so weiter alles Worte für Atem sind. And yogic practice is to actualize that breath in attentional breathing. Und yogische Praxis darum besteht, diesen Atem als aufmerksames Atmen zu verwirklichen. then attentional breathing becomes, the attentional breathing brought to the distinctness of the inhale and the exhale. develops attention itself.
[38:54]
And by joining attention to the breath, no, excuse me, by joining attention to the hails, So attention begins to penetrate the bones and blood and sinews and neurons of breathing, the physiology of breathing. so that the attention begins to penetrate the physiology of the breath, i.e. the nose, the sinus, the neurons, etc., the physiology and the lungs, the physiology of the breath. You begin to enter the silence of the organs. And the body becomes an attentional body penetrated by attention, permeated by attention.
[40:00]
And the developing the attention to each inhale and each exhale. What you're taking is the fast pace of associative thinking. And now associating attention with the breath. And by associating attention with the breath, you're bringing breath out of thinking. You're bringing attention out of thinking. You're bringing attention out of thinking.
[41:11]
And you're developing then a bodily pace of knowing. And so for instance, right now, since I've been doing this a long time, my this, these words, et cetera, are in the pace of breathing. So my thinking isn't thinking leading to thinking. Whatever I'm doing that we can call thinking or mentation is happening through the breath. And because it's happening through the breath, I may be actually locating you yourselves more in your breath.
[42:20]
Because just as I discovered with the Maharishi, I non-consciously had synced my breath with his. We are actually here in some kind of mutual process. of establishing a mutual breath body. As I immediately, standing by chance next to the Maharishi, So wie ich sofort durch Zufall neben dem Maharishi stand. And recognized his breathing as, you know, evolved. I am certain he recognized that somebody was standing in front of him who was different than the other people standing in front of him.
[43:48]
Because your animal nature or animalist nature recognizes other animals. Weil unsere Tiernatur andere Tiere erkennt. So, in Buddhism, the main two mouse, for a Bodhisattva, are a lion or an elephant. Oh, then I don't mount? A mount, what you're mounted on, like you're mounted on a horse. You're mounted on an elephant. An ordinary person is mounted on an ox. Because an ox represents farming and pulling things and stuff like that.
[45:02]
Yeah, I promise I'll stop eventually. so the ten oxherding pictures are like the ox as the mount of ordinary life is lost and you can't find the ox anymore and that's symbolized by the ox a boy riding on an ox backwards. Because to ride on an ox backwards is to be in the ordinary world in a different way. And that is represented symbolically by the boy who rides backwards on the ox. And because sitting backwards on the ox means that you are in the ordinary world in a different way.
[46:06]
And again, using the example of Samantabhadra, the mountain of bodhisattva practice, luminous practice or continuous practice. Samantabhadra is sitting, it's a beautiful, really beautiful porcelain figure. I got here actually a few years ago in, it's a feminine figure and she's completely in samadhi but the elephant which is even more gorgeous has its eyes open and it smiles And this represents that when she's in samadhi, she's in connection with and the animal nature of everything as it is is flowing up into her through samadhi.
[47:21]
So finding the stillness of samadhi finding the stillness of the water, even in waves, allows the stillness of the world and emptiness, which includes everything all at once, this undivided activity to flow up into you. So if I was a good teacher, I would be able to have you all feel we're sitting on an elephant, and it's blowing up into us, each of us. Wenn ich ein guter Lehrer wäre, dann wäre ich in der Lage zu machen, dass ihr alle ein Gefühl haben könnt, als ob wir auf einem großen Elefanten sitzen, der in uns aufsteigt.
[48:39]
So that's a realm of knowing. Das ist ein Bereich des erkennenden Wissens. So, I mean, maybe the hip therapist. You're all hip therapists, you know. Wait until you and the client are both on the same elephant before you say certain things. That's also something like waiting for the ripening of time. So again, I thought it was going to be a little rip, but here we are. Let's go have a break. Thank you for your patience, and I apologize to your legs.
[49:38]
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