I love to taste the truth without the darkness. Good morning. This is the sixth day of our seven-day Rohatsu Sashin. In December, we commemorate Shakyamuni Buddha's enlightenment with Rohatsu Sashin. I've been lecturing on Zen Master Dogen's

[01:07]

Eihei Shingi, the part about the Chiji, which is the officers in the monastery, how the officers in the monastery relate or practice, practice and relate to the members and how they create harmony. a harmonious situation in a harmonious Sangha. And for Dogen, this is very important. Although Dogen wrote close to a hundred fascicles in his famous Shobogenzo, he also wrote the Shingi in parts, which was put together to be a one volume, but the Shingi is about how to practice.

[02:16]

And although the Shobo Genzo is very deep and profound, for Zen students, the Shingi is the most important part, which seems simple, not so imaginative, but it's actually the meat of practice. And for Dogen this was true. So we should pay, as Zen students, pay very close attention to what Dogen is talking about in the shingyi. So I'm going to continue. When he talks about the six officers, there are actually more.

[03:26]

He talked about everybody in the monastery, of course, but the officers are examples. and the head cook, the work leader, the director, the shikha, the person who takes care of visitors, and the garden person, and various people who have responsibilities, major responsibilities for taking care of the practice. So I've been reading or commenting on the Kanyan, and I have to bring you up to date on Kanyan. The Kanyan is a, in Dogan's time, which is the 13th century,

[04:28]

in a small monastery was the person who took care of almost everything. And in a larger monastery those offices were taken by different people, but the Kannon had lots of responsibilities. In a small monastery one or two people may take care of all of that. When I first started, when we first started at Dwight Way, our practice place, we didn't have so many people, and I would do the whole service by myself, and then someone else would do it by themselves. Little by little, someone else would take apart, so forth. But, and I'd cook the meals for people and wash the dishes. That's the way things begin. But anyway, and that's actually very good, you know, because then the abbot learns how to do everything and knows what's going on in all the activities.

[05:43]

So he's talking about the Kanyan and the responsibilities and so forth, and then he talks about very deep things involved with that person. So he says the Kanyan, should refrain from the company of those who do not follow the ancient path and associate with those who do follow the ancient path. If the Kanin is intimate with such people, it will become an obstacle of the way and negligence of the way will immediately emerge. One who has the way mind is a noble character in the Buddha way. One who is without way mind is a minor character in the Buddha way. Zhuangzi says, Everything in the world follows something. That's an interesting statement. One who follows love and righteousness is commonly regarded as a noble character. One who follows a material way is one who is regarded as a minor character. Throughout Buddhism,

[06:56]

the admonition is always to associate with people who follow the way. If you want to practice, associate with people who follow the way. So if we associate with people who follow the way, then people who follow the way have to exercise good behavior because people depend on each other. We depend on each other for support. So people who are having problems or a difficult time, we support them. People who have a lot of ability and can deal with problems help other people. So it's a mutually supportive Sangha. That's very important. When you have a good sense of practice, then it's easier to associate with other people.

[07:58]

You know, Dogen's very strict and he's talking to monks about their monastic practice. But for lay people, we're always practicing with people who are not practicing the way. Most of our life is involved with people who are not practicing the way in the same way we are. We think. But actually, everything in the world is practicing the way. The whole universe is practicing zazen. Oh yeah? Yes. The whole universe is practicing zazen. Zazen is coming down to zero. When you go to sleep at night, you stop the activity. Then you wake up and you begin the activity again. When the sun comes up, or when the sun goes down, the activity in the world, in the natural world, so to speak, diminishes.

[09:13]

Everything goes to rest, and then when the sun comes up, activity begins. So the activity comes out of the stillness and within the activity is the stillness. The stillness doesn't go away but it becomes obscured. So Dzazen is to return to the absolute stillness which is always there and then return to activity. But the stillness is always there within the activity. This is zazen. Fundamentally, everything is still, completely still. If we have that fundamental stillness, if we wake up to the fundamental stillness, that's called realization. And then we understand the nature of activity.

[10:20]

And then pure love springs out of that stillness. So he says, everything in the world follows something. That's right, everything in the world. Everyone, when we are born and then we start developing, we're looking for something to follow. The child follows the parents and then follows ideas and follows impulses but looking for leadership everything is looking for leadership in some way or another so there are infinite paths that we follow for leadership looking for leadership and a lot of those paths paths are dead ends in buddhism we say Buddha Dharma is not a dead end.

[11:28]

Buddha Dharma continues forever. It's endless. The Dharma is endless. The path is endless. Dogen is saying, if you practice, endless practice, with those people who support you on the path, and who you support, then you have endless practice, an endless way to go, which never will fail you. So then he says, the Chen Kui Wen says, so-called noble character and minor character are merely ways... So-called noble character and minor character are merely ways of classifying.

[12:50]

Don't get mixed up. When one follows the path, one becomes a noble character. If one goes against it, one is regarded as a minor character. The Buddha way is also like this. When either in poverty or prosperity, one should respond to the way mind. This being so, listen to the words and observe the practice of those in the past who have had way mind. Make such precedence the lapel and eyeball of the present. Lapel means the heart. You know, this place. So whether in poverty or prosperity, you know, doesn't matter. The way is just the way. When you have nothing, you're happy to have nothing. When you have something, you're happy to have something. That's the way. Then he says, the Kanin should help maintain the established formal practice of the monastery and rejuvenate any declining elements of dignified bearing.

[14:01]

He refers to this Chanyuan Quingwei, which is an old manual for monastic practice. He says, externally to follow the rules of the nation and internally to follow the monastic rules. This is an auspicious assembly of Buddha ancestors, a forest of fine teachers. Rules are strictly observed and formal practice is well established. Where the formal practice is not maintained, the Buddha way declines. Not to follow formal practice is to follow that which is not practice. When the way is in decline, that which is not in conformity with the way is practiced as the way. So Dogen is very strict because he's a monastic. I don't know if that's true, what he says, but in the monastic community, those monastic communities which are very strict always last the longest.

[15:12]

In the 70s, the late 60s, we established Tassajara and established it as a monastery, in 1970 actually. When Tatsagami Roshi came, we asked him to establish Tassajara, to introduce the monastic system, which he did. And I was his head monk at the time. And I saw that whole thing. I was very intimate with the whole way that it was established. And so, you know, the monastery runs on a time schedule and the schedule is the practice. The schedule is the foundation of the practice. the bell rings when the Han goes off, you stop what you're doing and do the next thing.

[16:22]

If you can't keep up with the changes, then you start to have problems. So it's a way of letting go and taking up the next thing. You have to be able to let go and take up the next thing. not be attached to what you're doing, not be attached to what's going on, but simply go with the way things are flowing. And in all of Zen Center, we had this similar practice. Then when Zen Center had a big crisis of confidence in the early 80s, everything fell apart. But the schedule kept going. And even though people were running around, not knowing what to do, anarchy was reigning, the schedule still kept going. And then gradually, people started getting back on the schedule, turning the wheel, and the practice rejuvenated itself.

[17:32]

Most places, when they have a problem like that, all the students leave and the place falls into chaos. So the practice itself is independent of how everybody feels about it. Totally independent about how everybody feels about it. You can rant and rave, but the wheel just keeps turning. And then you get on it and things start to work. So, you know, often people complain about formal practice, but formal practice is there to help us, not to bind us. I got this idea yesterday. that when I saw how we were serving food in the Zendo and so forth and how I observe a lot of our students cutting corners and it occurred to me this is the practice of speed bumps.

[18:55]

You know, you have to go at a certain pace and you have to be thorough to do something thoroughly. When we serve each other, we bow. And then when you bow, it's meeting. It's not just doing something because you're supposed to. You actually meet the person that you're serving. Bowing is not just this. That's not what bowing is. Bowing is when you get down to the bottom, you let go of everything. Boom. The whole universe disappears. And you meet in that space. It only happens for just a quick moment. If you bow too much, that's ostentatious. sneaky bow. Okay, enough already.

[20:09]

If you're just like that, it's like, what happened? So, just meet sincerely at the bottom of the bow. That's where meeting takes place. Suzuki Roshi said, as long as there's bowing, and Dogen too, as long as there's bowing, the Dharma will continue. When we come into this bowing mat, the bowing mat, I don't know if everybody can see it, but it has four corners on it, You notice your raksu, your robe, has four corners on it. It's the same thing. And the four corners are the guardians. They guard your practice.

[21:16]

If you go into a Japanese temple, I mean a large monastery, large temple, they often have the four guardians. So it's kind of ancient stuff, you know. So you enter the front and then when you leave, you enter the back and go around. You don't cross over or step on the guardian. So it makes you follow the path. You follow certain lines and you don't get ahead of yourself. One of the problems that we have, we want to do something. and we want to get something done. So we think about our head, but we don't think about our feet. So in practice, we always think about where our feet are. Most important, where am I stepping?

[22:22]

Not so much as where am I going? You have to know where you're going to, but you have to be in your step. And where is that step landing? And what am I disturbing with my feet? In ancient days, the monks had shuzhou staffs, and the staffs had little rings on them. They still do. And when they walked from one place to another, they'd jingle the staff to warn any animals or critters that are on the path that they were coming, so that they wouldn't, so they'd be warned that there was somebody coming. So we tend to get into our heads and we have lots of ideas and we wanna hurry up and get done what we wanna, to manifest into action what's in our head.

[23:27]

And we create disturbance. When you walk in the zendo, when people are sitting zazen, you should walk very slowly so as not to disturb the atmosphere. And when you leave, you should walk very slowly so as not to disturb the atmosphere. I've said this before. When you come in and you're late, people think, well, I should hurry up and get to my seat so that I don't disturb the atmosphere. You just don't hurry up. Just walk slowly to your seat in the midst of your embarrassment. So then he says, Qin Jin, a person of the later Han dynasty, became the governor of Nanyang.

[24:37]

For three years, he only sat and mumbled. But nevertheless, his influence transformed the land he was governing. This is an excellent example of governing. That which makes... Oh, yeah. That which makes achievement great does not depend upon speaking or not speaking, or even on endeavor or lack of endeavor. This is the best endeavor. What is best is not to practice what is not reasonable. Reasonable doesn't sound like the right word. Is it? That's what I put in. We translated this, so that's my question. I think reasonable's okay. In retrospect, what is best is not to practice what is not reasonable or not something. Do you know that there's a story about in a monastery in China, they used to select the abbot by throwing in names in the hat and picking them out.

[25:53]

And so they threw the names in the hat and they picked them out and the name that came out was the name of this guy who they all called Dopey. You know, he was like the runt of the monastery, right? And they said, looked at each other and said, let's try him again. So they put the names back and mixed them up and took him out again. Dopey. And they picked Dopey, third time. So, okay. So they made him abbot and he became the best abbot they ever had. It's not good to be too smart. In Soto Zen, we say you should not be too smart. That's why I'm here. According to the history of the Han Dynasty, Emperor Cheng said, heaven creates all people.

[27:02]

Because they cannot govern themselves, an emperor is chosen to rule. It is the same in the Buddhist monastery, because cloud and water people need governance. The head of gruel and rice is chosen to administrate. Cloud and water, unsui. Unsui means, un is cloud, and sui is water. That's what they call a monk, an unsui, a cloud and water person. Loose, you know. And the head of gruel and rice is the abbot. In Chinese, Jushoku, Japanese Jushoku, the head of rice and gruel. So it's like motherly person, one who feeds you, something or other, makes sure that, kind of like the parent, actually, Abba.

[28:04]

So Mozi said, in olden times, the state was modeled after the principle of the heavens. So a wise person was chosen to be the emperor or the representative of the heavens. Because the emperor cannot rule the entire world under the heavens by herself, other wise people are chosen to be the three ministers. In my understanding, Buddha inherits from Buddha. An ancestor correctly transmits to ancestor. Establishing host and guest, bowing between teacher and disciple, corresponds to these words. The Chang Nguyen Quynh Huy says, because host and guest for one day, becoming host and guest for one day, you may be teacher and disciple for the rest of your life. This is what it means to be host and guest. This host and guest is used a lot in Chinese Zen. It means heaven and earth. It means teacher and disciple.

[29:14]

It means Buddha nature and Buddha. So it's about relationships, how we relate. When teacher and disciple are in accord, they bow to each other. I remember one time, Suzuki Roshi called me into his room, and he bowed down to me. And I was stunned. And he said, when I bow to you, you should bow to me. So I did. But I was really very surprised by that, that the teacher bows to the student, and of course the student should bow to the teacher, but it's establishing a relationship which is not just a relationship for that moment, but a relationship forever. That's what that kind of relationship means, and that's what

[30:25]

and establishing host and guest, and transmission of the Dharma. Suzuki Roshi said, people would say, how come you're the teacher, you know, and how come I'm the disciple? Something like that. It was in the air. This lifetime, I'm the teacher and you're the disciple. Next lifetime, maybe you'll be the teacher and I'll be the disciple. But for now, this is the way it is. I'm the teacher and you're the disciple. So that's the way we practice. So each one has a position. Sometimes the student is the teacher and the teacher is the student. But even so, At the same time, the teacher is always the teacher, the disciple is always the disciple, until the next lifetime.

[31:31]

So then he says, the Kanin should rejoice in his heart each time he sees the faces of monks from the 10 directions. That's very nice. The Changyuan Chingui says, someone who does not have a broad capacity to accept people and a deep heart to love them is not appropriate for nurturing people as the Kanyan. So that's a very important point. He said, Buddha said to Ananda, Bodhisattvas, mahasattvas who live together, should look on each other just as they look on the world-honored one. The reason is they are my true company, just like riding on the same boat. Their learning is my learning. So the abbot, the officers, the crew heads, the monks of the monastery should all apply these words to the Buddha, of the Buddha, to their everyday activities.

[32:45]

And Dogen says, for the essential way of emancipation, there is nothing beyond this. We have all kinds of fancy theories about Buddha and Buddhism, but this is it. If we can't do this, if we can't get If we can't get beyond this, there's no sense studying anything else. So we should meet people with big mind and not get lost, succumb to small mind. This is the whole essence of the practice, to always abide in big mind.

[33:58]

And when small mind comes up, you know that it's small mind. Small mind will always come up. Small mind actually is an expression of big mind. But small mind should also convey big mind. When small mind is cut off from big mind, then it's really small mind. So in every activity, just everyday activity, this is what it means by everyday activity. Everyday activity looks like small mind, but it's supported by big mind. How do we practice in the world? To stand in big mind. Let small mind be informed by big mind.

[35:01]

So we don't act in a petty way. We don't just react to things. And we don't just come from our emotions and from our opinions. You know, we have to treat everyone as Buddha. That doesn't mean just my friends. That means we have to see the Buddha nature in each person. And then we have to understand, how am I creating problems? We also have to understand how other people are creating problems. But basically, we have to understand how we are creating problems, how our actions bring the results to us. The world is our mirror. When people act certain ways to me, it's a mirror of who I am.

[36:08]

It's a movie, my movie. I'm the star and all this stuff that's coming at me is being somehow influenced by me. If I live a life that's where people love me, it's because Something, that's what's coming from me. If I live a life where people are attacking me, it's because there's something there that's coming from me. This is simplistic. You can argue about exceptions, but you have to understand the meaning here. I'm talking about how we create karma. and how the result of our karma is a mirror of who we are.

[37:17]

We can know who we are easily by just looking at or relating to the people around us because everyone is telling us how we are. And we have to listen to what people are saying or saying through their actions, saying through the way they relate to us. we are self-creating people. You know, we're born, so to speak, into the world, and then we meet circumstances, and we create our world, and we continue to create our world through the raw material of phenomena, phenomena, and it's Continuous. We can make our life heaven or we can make it hell.

[38:20]

It really is up to us. This is called free will in Buddhism. There is no determinism. Nothing is determined at all. People like to believe that things are determined, but according to the Buddha Dharma, there is nothing determined. There's no first cause. There's no place that it's going. It's just developing through our actions. One thing leads to another. And we're perfectly free to create whatever we want. You know, if you think about what is the most evil thing that could happen, others have thought that too. And you may not take it up, but others will. And, or you can think, well, what is the most wonderful thing that helps everybody? And you can make that happen.

[39:24]

You can make anything happen that you want if you do act in a certain way. Nothing's determined. It looks fatalistic, but it's not. Ben Dogen says, the con in should give instruction to the newly arrived monks according to the sutra of 3,000 regulations. 3,000 regulations. As I said before, although there are rules, mostly we follow customs. You know, we have a certain kind of custom that we follow. but we don't make people adhere to rules. Although there are some rules. Suzuki Roshi didn't like rules. He said, the more rules you have, the worse it gets.

[40:30]

And I totally agreed with him. And in Buddha's time, Buddha didn't establish rules until people brought in problems. So someone would bring a problem and then they'd discuss it and say, well, people shouldn't do this anymore because it's not good for the way. It doesn't help you. So the 10 types of care that the Kannon should provide for the monks are shelter, necessary articles for daily life, daily inquiry into their well-being, information about local customs, information in the use of alternatives when speaking of the emperor. If you know anything about ancient religion or the beginnings of all religions, to tell you the truth, basically you don't speak about God. That's not a name.

[41:33]

There are many different names. So you choose one that you you allow people to use, but it's not the name, it's a nickname. In Judaism it's that way, and I don't know, other religions maybe, but in China it was about the emperor, and in Zen stories The name of the emperor is, you know, not to be spoken. These are just kind of simile. And here he's talking about that, the information in the use of alternatives in speaking of the emperor. Information about where to practice begging. monastic rules, information about food, information about local government regulations.

[42:38]

In case of robbers, where is and where is not a safe place to go? This is primitive country. The sutra also says if a donor comes and offers to provide food for the monks, do not tell the other monks before seeing what he has. I think if you're begging for yourself, you take whatever is given. But when you're responsible for other people, you have to make sure that you feed them well and not just give them anything, even though the monk is supposed to eat what comes, what's put in front of them. You want to make sure that what's put in front of them is edible. I just wondered if it also has something to do with some inquiry about the donor. Well, that's coming.

[43:40]

So the sutra also says, there are five cautions to give in sending lay workers on errands in town. No fighting. buy only pure things, do not take advantage of others in purchasing goods, do not hire someone else to do this work, and be sensitive to the feelings of others. In this way, the kānan should give detailed instructions to these workers before they go to town. He does here, but not here, he doesn't mention this here, but he says in another place, you should be careful when people want to give something, to make an offering. Because, yeah, sometimes people come to the kanin in order to make an offering to the community or propose a construction project.

[44:50]

First, the kanin should examine carefully whether or not the donor has faith or lacks faith. and whether or not the intention is pure, or she should consult with the abbot and they should consider together. If it is determined that this offering is based on pure dedication and right view, then accept the offering, otherwise don't accept it." So, you know, sometimes people want to donate something in order to have some standing in the community or in order to gain some leverage somewhere, you know. So these are not pure gifts. It should just be gift. If they want to give something and it's acceptable, just give and say goodbye. Give and forget, actually. But, you know, there's a story about Dogen.

[45:55]

that he was doing some fundraising for AHE and he wanted it to be on a pure basis, but one monk, this is I think an apocryphal story, I'm not sure if this is really true, but there was one monk who solicited from somebody that Dogen felt didn't have pure motives, and he had warned this monk not to do that. And the monk came back with the dough, I think. And Dogon was furious with him. So he dug a hole six feet deep in the monk's sitting place and kicked the monk out of the monastery. I think that's an apocryphal story. But it's an interesting story. So anyway, these are some of the things here.

[46:56]

Do you have a question? Oh, Richard. Earlier, you were talking about keeping a schedule. Yes. San Francisco got back, became more stable because it kept following the schedule. And I was brought to mind something that you tell us about our practice and how often we should practice in a week, a month, What I say is do as much as you can but don't do too much. In other words, balance your life with your schedule. In other words, in order to make practice totally integral with your life, and not just something that you do aside from your daily life.

[48:01]

Zazen, your practice here, should be integral with your life. So it's one whole piece. So you should determine what your schedule is. I'm going to sit Zazen two or three times a day, a week or something, whatever it is, once a year. And you put that on your calendar. And when the time comes, oh, it says zazen, then you do it. So that it's determined by your intention and not just by your feelings. Oh, today I feel like zazen. It's such a nice day. Or I feel like zazen because I feel so bad. Your feelings shouldn't be determining your zazen schedule. Your intention should be determining your zazen schedule. Otherwise, you're just pulled around by your feelings. And then that should work together with all the other responsibilities you have. You should weigh that. Well, I have to go to school, or I have to work, and I have to take care of the family, or whatever.

[49:09]

So that you make a reasonable schedule that works with your life. And then it becomes integral with your life, and your whole life becomes based on the practice And that practice permeates your whole life. That's ideal practice. Dean? You were speaking about, you know, you act. This isn't the way you act. You act a certain way. You just use the word act a lot. And speaking about feelings, I'm wondering, where do feelings play in this? Or do they even have a role? Like, you act a certain way to someone. and you feel a certain way, you should not go up and smack him upside the head because you're angry, but what role do our feelings play in all of this? Our life is a life of feelings. I feel this way, I feel that way.

[50:15]

We say, I think this and I think that, but mostly we say, I feel. So feelings are very big in our life. And feelings, there's the gut feeling, and then there's the heart feeling, and there's the emotional feelings. So it's very complex. So we should pay attention to all those feelings. But the feelings should be filtered through our reasonable mind. so that, because feelings are changeable. Now I'm feeling this, and then the next minute I'm feeling that, and then tomorrow I'm feeling something else. And so our feelings are unstable, although strong and overwhelming. So we can easily be undermined by being attached to our feelings.

[51:21]

So we have to practice control, otherwise feelings just get out of hand. And if we just keep going with our feelings, feelings are fickle. I love you, I hate you. When I love you, the whole world is beautiful. When you leave me, the whole world is horrible. Terrible. is more connected to our reasonable mind. That's right, connected to our reasonable mind. And so that we can, our feelings don't control us. Feelings come up and we acknowledge them and we live a life of feelings. But if they get out of hand or become too, if we start following them too much, Following your gut feeling is a little different, because that's intuition.

[52:24]

But it should always be checked with reasonableness. Otherwise, we fly off the handle. We get inundated by our feelings. So it's not easy. It's the hardest thing, actually, to deal with our feelings. Yeah. Well, I don't think Zazen alone should versus sitting Zazen. There's Buddha, there's the Dharma and the Sangha. So practicing with the Sangha is the third leg of practice, so we shouldn't ignore practicing with the Sangha. That's where actually we find support and we learn something, and also we lend our support to others.

[53:32]

So if you only sit alone, you should sit alone too. You can sit anytime you want, nobody's going to stop you. But if you only sit by yourself, then it easily becomes an egotistical practice if there is a Sangha available. If there's no Sangha, then you have to sit by yourself. But it's very easy for Zazen to become an egotistical practice. We don't practice Zazen just for ourselves. When you have real maturity, then you can practice Azan more by yourself. Sometimes people go to a cave, you know. But cave practice is okay, but it's not our practice. Because our practice is dedicated. We dedicate our practice to each other. Somebody back there. Yeah.

[54:34]

Once you told me, because I do tend to at times emotionally react before I think. What did I say? As far as ... I just can't hear you. My emotional reactions that are impulsive. Yes. In regard to these. You told me once that to back off would allow me to see Buddha nature. Rather than being impulsive, at that moment, if I can check that and not be impulsive, there at that moment was Buddha nature. And the reason I'm just saying this to share with the group, because that's what you told me, and at times it's helpful. But I do believe it, you know, and I don't know what it's about, but just the idea of pondering that it may be Buddha nature at least takes me away from, well, it's too late to do the impulse thing.

[55:52]

You know, it's always good to calm down. Yeah. It's always good to calm down. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I have the same thing. I'm really responding to your response about reasonable mind. When I hear the words reasonable mind, I think that it echoes with the phrase rational mind. And my experience is that the rational mind is absolutely puny in the face of strong emotions. It's utterly useless. And I find that with Nancy, that rather than thinking of intervening with rational mind, I think of Zazen mind, of that waiting moment of being aware, and trying to cultivate actually a positive emotion of compassion toward the feelings, so that if I can let myself feel the feelings and be aware that I'm feeling something very strong, very painful, and greet it with compassion rather than trying to reason my way through it,

[56:58]

and just be very aware of it and hold it and not be afraid of it, then I don't need to act on it. Yeah. It calms down. That's good. I agree with that. People sometimes think we think, well, we're trying to get rid of emotions, or Zen students don't have emotions, or something like that. That's not correct. We're all emotional, vibrantly emotional, and especially Zen students. But, you know, if we keep coming back to zazen mind, we can appreciate our emotions, you know, honor our emotions, love our emotions, but not have them lead us around by the nose. And that's almost the end. That is the end, actually. But I'll have Linda say something.

[58:00]

Oh, it's about something you said at the beginning of the lecture, a quotation about, it seemed to oppose the way, it said it's good to follow the way of love and something rather, and following the way of the material was opposed to that in a kind of negative way. And I found that a troublesome thing. Yeah. What is this material Well, it didn't say spiritual, it said love. We don't divide spiritual from material. It didn't say there's something wrong with material. He's saying that if you only follow the material way without following the way of love, then it's just materialism. don't do that, don't associate with those people who are only materialistic and have no sense of compassion for people and would steal you dry and kick you into the river, which they're trying to do.

[59:18]

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