don't think about Francis. They treat on some subjects which concern our own monastic life. There are some aspects which really are derived from the impressions on the Congress of the Arts. In law, to now, we haven't spoken about and really needed a little time to kind of digest these. impressions and then you make them fruitful somehow or so far only. That, of course, is the main point in these conferences.

[01:14]

It was very evident in this gathering of about 150 rabbits and priors from monasteries all over the world, most below Europe, also many, actually, from North America, South America, Brazil, and Australia. So Asia was represented. Vietnam and England. So these, one could right away see that there are, let us say, two general groups, what I say you are familiar with, just to bring it to mind again. That was Jean Leclerc in his book on the

[02:19]

What is it? It's called the letters, you know, the... The Desiree de Dieu. The Desiree de Dieu, yeah, that. Distinguishes there Benedictine one and Benedictine religieux. Monk, Benedictines and Benedictine religious. Yeah, that's an attempt, you know, to kind of bring it on, to reformulate. If one looks at the Benedictine religious first, there is evidence that they are represented externally mostly by the Ossians and the Bavarians, released more strongly and most clearly by the Ossians and the Bavarians. They stress the needs of the church in our days.

[03:31]

They feel that it is there, bound too deep, to help, helping the present apostolic needs, and mostly in parish work and in educational work. And that is this. I think it's a fact one must keep clearly in mind that the Bavarians and the Austrians and also the Hungarians, for that matter, have a distinct feature in this, that they all were formed by what we call Josephinism. Josephinism, you know, is a system originated, maybe not all the origin, but under the emperor, by the emperor Joseph II, son of Maria Theresia, who was emperor from 1765 to 1790.

[04:49]

And this Joseph II was a very unruly little fellow that gave Maria Theresa many headaches. Nobody could really get control of him. Every means of the time were used on his dear mother to try to frighten him The steward wrote that that didn't work anymore. She turned to the tellwitz, trained him. That's the song you see her appeal to. His supernatural motives just didn't gain any ground.

[05:58]

On the contrary, they were upset, I don't know, upset that his religious instruction was not the most inspiring kind and just didn't catch his imagination. I don't think I have the material things, I mean, all these problems of the welfare of the people, legal problems of the Enlightenment, the economical, problems, new ideas, how to bring about a greater degree of material welfare. All these things were strongly to his taste. He also, I think, lived a little under the shadow of Frederick the Great. Of course, resenting Frederick the Great's victories and seeing the great

[07:02]

success of the civilization, say, of Protestant Northern Germany, comparing it, unfavorably, with the Catholic South. He was a friend of Voltaire and people like that. So he tried to wake up in his people a new sense of, say, personal responsibility, believe in education, in knowledge. And so he was a strong adversary of the monastic life, which in these days was still immensely strong in Austria. But the monastic life in these days was languishing, stagnant, that there were too many monasteries.

[08:14]

Even now, after Joseph II has cleaned up so much, Entering into Austria, one still has the feeling that there are too many monasteries left, at least not for the needs, but for the present. on a number of occasions and so on. They have a very big struggle to keep up their works and they are very monastic with their life. These various Stifts, where I was visiting Jelle, it was right next to Jelle, there was one Prønmonstertänchen Stift, right about half an hour's drive from Irla. In about three quarters of an hour, there was a sister's shift. Yes, then a little more, there was an Augustinian choir, the Canon Stift, and then there was also one, the only Trappist settlement was also in that corner.

[09:29]

So all kinds of us who all live, if one looks at them from the outside, but maybe also the inside, essentially live the same kind of life. They have their state revenues for their teaching and for their parish duties. That is the way Joseph II did it. He suppressed about 300 to 400 monasteries in Austria in his time. And then what was left, he put in charge of parishes and schools. And then he endowed the monasteries accordingly and gave them serious oppression of about 400 monasteries, provided the means for the so-called religious fund. And this religious fund then was used to pay salaries to those who would teach in the schools and do service in the parishes, as pastors.

[10:39]

So the important thing, I think, of this reform is that through this Josephism, as far as I can see, for the first time and only time, say, in history, At that time, in the 18th century, the activity, the outside activity, parochial and educational work, became the very basis on which the entire existence of the monastery rested. So that without that, the monastery would not exist. The same thing was true later on by the resurrected Bavarian monasteries, Mitten first, and then others who were resurrected only under the condition why do the first two teach, and without that, they would not have received their property, would not have restored to them.

[11:44]

So there was a tremendous reaction, and we don't live in those times, but I can imagine that this reaction. One thing is absolutely certain of that is that the population was on the side of the emperor. The people considered that as a thing which was only right and just and served the welfare of the whole state, the public welfare. But we want to understand that those monasteries were in times of old endowed with enormous endowments, forests, even now. People are in monasteries like Attenborough, and also the English cellar trap is an enormous forest. that are under the administration of sectors, sometimes successfully, sometimes not.

[12:51]

And therefore have great weight, but Joseph II gave them that under the condition and for the maintenance of these public institutions. So that by then, naturally, all those who enter into this kind of setup, to them the monastery is first of all a means of their social security. That's the way in which they receive their income, in which their life is made possible. and these monks who live on various parishes outside also have their own they have their own furniture and so on they they are transferred they go they move with their furniture wash to the other So, therefore, I think that's very important that we realise that the activity enters into the very essence of that kind of shtikh life, monastic life, very essence.

[14:06]

And, naturally, the rule as such has to be then adapted to these external needs. It's also very interesting to see, and that was very evident from talks of various advocates of the Congress, it's very interesting that in those countries in which Josephinism have this strong influence up to this time, up to this day. The monastic, I mean, strictly monastic vocation, for example, vocations through the Brotherhood are very, very scarce, exceptions. The reason is easy to see. The whole mentality of Josephinism is education and working through education, and education, of course, leads eventually, necessarily, to the priesthood, so that the priest is considered the, you could say, the fool.

[15:21]

religious who has a true raison d'être while the brother now who really in the much greater degree lives, or has to live, a monastic life for its own sake is considered as useless, as lost to society and to the needs of the time. So the... And their letters then came out very clearly in various talks, links in the Abbott's Congress. that you see this group, they might add, you know, this group of Austrian, Bulgarians, Bavarians, with their strong, I want to say, really very strongly active, and also maybe to a certain extent, although they are very, I mean, one shouldn't...

[16:30]

And I estimate that the individuals who serve in these monasteries have strong, don't be strong, good piety. Piety. But a piety which is a kind of inheritance from a good Catholic home, from a good Catholic parish. It is not something which would find its essential and necessary expression in monastic life as such. It's a life, it's a piety which is nourished in devotions, devotion to Our Lady, devotion to the Sacred Heart, the popular counter-reformed devotion, And the general spirit of the Baroque age, there are those who strongly, for that matter, strongly appealing to the sentiments, ways.

[17:40]

triumphant masses, feasts and so on, and these glowing churches. By the way, it's very interesting to see that after the war, many of these splendid Baroque churches have been restored to their former glory St Peter's in Salzburg was shown to us at night. I must say, with the electric effects of our age, these ceilings and these pillars and these gold-leaf baroque decorations were magnificent, giving the impression of tremendous festive, exuberant elegance and that is of course that's a source of inspiration for this it's a deliberately world open spirit the baroque that

[18:58]

I think you can see that very clearly. The Baroque is in many ways the Catholic way to react against the bestirlness of the Gothic age. Gothic age in comparison to the Baroque is really a dark age. These Gothic churches are dark. They have a certain stern note. By the Baroque, that's all. It's a feast. It's a wedding feast between the heavenly world and the earthly world. Very interesting was the church in Niederallteich, the Abbot Immanuel Hohenfeldt, established his monastery.

[20:00]

And that was built by an abbot in the 18th century when Anita Altaj celebrated its thousandth anniversary, thousand years of existence in 1760 or 1738. And there is a whole system of the correspondence between this world here and the heavenly world. For example, in the side isles, the side isles are moulded into various chapels, and each one of these chapels has a theme. For example, one of these chapels was authority. In the lower region, each one of these chapels has a ceiling, but in this ceiling is a hole, all oval.

[21:10]

You know, I mean, the forms are always oval. Never a circle and never a rectangle. It's all like this. And then you look through this oval of this, what do you call it? It's a hole. This hole is surrounded by a beautiful Baroque iron rod, wrought iron rod. You know, beautiful rail, you know, and then through the rail you can see up in the ceiling on another level, and there is always, the baroque thing is always so, have abundance of lights, but never see the windows, the sorters on it. And that's why I think it's a system. Then you look through that, and then of course this upper story above the chapel has big windows, lots of light coming in there.

[22:16]

So you see there, and there you see then the mother church, and you see the father as the hidden source of all authority in the heavenly world. Down in the chapel there is the crown of the Prince of Bavaria. Yeah, it's a way, you know, to kind of... I think much can be said in favor of the Baroque, but it's the way of the Baroque to show the sacramentality of the Church. but as a transparency, as something that fuses into or leads to or opens up into the heavenly world. And, of course, it's all clouds, it's all dance, it's all movement, you know, and heidende Freude.

[23:21]

And so the... therefore the baroque is in some way a representation of the church in her to say eternal or supernatural trial over the uh and beyond all the powers of this world so but done in a very i would say uh not in the way of the mysterio i mean you And the same principle, I mean basic principle, that you have in the Baroque, you have in something else in the catacombs. And the Baroque Church in the catacombs is about maybe the greatest contrast one could imagine. Go to the Priscilla Catacombs down there. Then we see, of course, we see there also the... We see on one side, we see the elegant...

[24:27]

and to say here elegant for example a room with walls painted like marble or for example painted like a What is the name of these? In the garden one has these little... Bowers? Bowers, you see, bowers. You know, the whole thing there, a catacomb, the whole room there painted like a bower. That could be in the Baroque age, too. They loved to paint bowers. And with the little shepherd in it and so on. But then, and so that is in the Catechumens too, in order to represent the presence of the refrigerium, of that refreshment in which the soul lives after leaving this world in the peace of Christ.

[25:34]

But then you have the ceiling, and up on the ceiling in the catacombs, then you see the heavenly world, you see the good shepherd, or you see little puttees, angels, you know. Things like that. So, I mean, that's true. Still, the difference, you know, is that the Baroque is much more an attempt at a direct, you know, sensible, or how is it not sensible, but tangible... realization so that the one who is who looks at it you know that it's just like the music you see you one moves in in exuberant music on kind of has the kingdom of heaven right on earth but doesn't know quite you know where it begins and where it ends Where man begins, where man ends, where the spirit begins, where the spirit ends, is in some ways a kind of an ecstasy.

[26:43]

But an ecstasy, of course, applied to the masses, you know. I mean, a church like that, the Altai and so on, of course, they want the celebrating throne, you know. See, in the Baroque, it's that way, possessions and canon, you know, panacea... Blessed Sacrament, one of the Blessed Sacrament, and all that. Then the soldiers all marching and the court marching. Now, Vienna didn't have much of a metropolitan in those days, for Salzburg or Kassel. But there is that very strong, I must say, desire, this worldly attempt at this worldly representation of the power and the glory and the majesty of...

[27:53]

of the mysterium of the church, of that heavenly element, that eternal element in the church, of the triumphant element in the church. So, how did we get to this? But that is that this world of the Josephinism in which also there that fusion of the imperial splendour and of that ecclesiastical splendour. The two, they kind of fuse in a hymn. God save the king. Therefore, these monasteries, by the way, connected with and part of the monastery is the imperial wing.

[29:02]

For example, in South Florian, big monastery, but there is no essential difference whatsoever between the monastery and the royal palace. area of Paris, architecturally the same. And if one walks in these long corridors, on one side, the Monsley, but the other side is reserved for the court. Architecturally, it's the same. Only that, of course, where the court, the rooms for the court are there. The, of course, the room for audiences, receptions, and Marmorsaal, Abel, Paul, and things like that, you know, in a more splendid way, but still the, for example, the architectural unit of the Emperor's rooms,

[30:07]

And of the monk's wounds, it's essentially the same. So, therefore, this worldly attitude was the state, Joseph II's state was the custodian of the church. Frederick the Great always said of Joseph II with a smile, our brother the sacristan. Joseph II as the sacristan of the church. Joseph II really said that probably himself would be a little bit more the sacristan. In substance, the Austrians, of course, they have spoken of the same sacristan. They said that was the idea of Saint Joseph. St. Joseph, the cult of St. Joseph, what is that? St.

[31:08]

Joseph is the one who takes care of the infant as his mother. That means of Christ and the Church. That's Saint Joseph. That's the reason why they're all called Joseph, these emperors. That is a program. That is the idea of the relation between the Church and the state. Saint Joseph has the care for all the worldly. Saint Joseph II didn't trust the ecclesiastical administration of property at all. He said, that is a matter for the state. The priests just can't do it. So, therefore, that whole thing, you see, the economic side, but then also the education. I mean, see, the church has to serve the public welfare.

[32:13]

as one of his ministers was a little more liberal than he even said he was, expressed it. He said, as long as people are not yet up to it to be governed by the police of the state, they have to be directed by the police of the church. The church is the police for a people which is still not enlightened enough so therefore they are that strong this worldliness which is there also the whole emphasis on light is so evident in these structures And therefore, the monks, under the influence of this spirit, really became, because they were officials. They were officials of the state. They are up to now.

[33:16]

So a monk, an Austrian monk, most of them are Regierungsrat, or so. the title, the worldly title, the state, and they function as educators. So it is also interesting, you know, that this kind of thing, this strong fusion, I mean, not any fusion any more, but this entering of the activity into the very fibre of the whole existence of such a schiff is also a strongly Germanic notion. It's a thing which is in the German Germanic tribes, there is then, of course, in Austria too, border thing you know that is a uh before many nations come together that is a in some way a colonial enterprise in its origin German

[34:30]

coming in as a colonizing force, and therefore as a ruling force. That brings with it a very strong also this worldliness. Anyone who lives in a colony, a colonist, must be, must become this world man. One can see that so evidently, for example, in our days in algae. That is one thing that Edmond Michelet told me is one of the greatest difficulties at the present time of the, for example, of elements, sincerely Catholic elements in the De Gaulle government. They are faced with this colonial element in Algiers which, just through the very struggle, you must always think these people have cultivated or gained, you know, the soil of Algiers that made it what it is, through their own sweat, through enormous efforts, also through much shooting and fighting against enemies.

[35:40]

And that, of course, produces just as in the United States the frontier Mentality is also strong, this worldly mentality, yes. the realistic mentality, the mentality which also wants to enjoy then the fruits of these tremendous efforts which they themselves or their fathers have put into the present prosperity that they have reached. So it's a very strong Germanic notion which It's not so, neither in Italy, nor in Spain, nor in France. Not at the present time. But Bavaria and Austria, very strong. And as you know, from Bavaria it came to this country, to North America, which is also, as I said, a pioneer country.

[36:42]

The monastery monastic foundations were made in pioneer times for pioneer families, St. George's Abbey or La Trobe, and these places where, therefore, they had a very strong, I want to say, this worldly notion to them. One only must say that there is a difference between, let's say, the Austrian and barbarian attitude we find, and, for example, here in this country, the American, let's say, the American and there is this, see, that while the Austrian tradition, since the Enlightenment, is not essentially changed. The mentality, however, here in these immigration countries, you know, is to a certain extent, you see, that took place in 1850, 1848, 1850, in these years.

[37:55]

Then the Catholics came into this country, and there was among them, you see, in the 1850s, there had taken place what we call the Catholic Revival. and this catholic revival is a strongly influenced we call it sometimes also the romantic age and this romantic age is for example characterized you know by people like schlegel and there is a deliberate reaction against the rationalism of the enlightenment period And this romantic reaction took a great hold of the, let's say, the bourgeois, the Catholic bourgeois population in Germany, in the White Lands, also in Frankenland, in Pfalz, these countries.

[38:57]

And the immigrants, of course, came from these countries around that time here to this country, so that there is also... I'd say a deliberate now, you know, under the guidance, inspiration greatly, for example, of Pio Nono. Pio Nono had an enormous influence on the formation of this romantic, one can call it, Catholic reaction against enlightenment. And then, of course, has also something to do with the spiritual attitude in the, for example, in the American Cassidese monasteries in this country. It is not simply enlightenment, and it is not simply this kind of harmony, even kind of continuity, if not identification of the state and an enlightened church.

[39:59]

But there is also a certain difference. There is a church which has been reawakened to her own existence and in opposition to the political forces, which happened under the leadership of Pius IX. The definition or the dogma of the Immaculate Conception is a kind of banner for that kind of reassertion of the Church in her, to say, supernatural claims and powers against this enlightenment mixing and mingling of state of thought, church of thought, and so on. So that is one. You see, another thing is that this Josephism also had its strong influence directly on what we today have in Brazil of monasticism, mainly in Brazil, because that was strongly also under German influence, the real work of monasticism there.

[41:22]

And so that is one group, a strong group, in the present Benedictine setup, and that was very clear at this Congress. However, of course, that is not all. We have outside of this, let us say, Josephinistic bloc, We have another group, one couldn't call it a block, but it is more a group, and I kind of tentatively only say that, according to maybe superficial impressions that I gathered during this gathering, this Congress. There is, you know, in the old ages, I mean, even in the Holy Rule, I think you can see that there are, for St. Benedict and the rule, there are two sources of vocations. One source of vocation in the rule, certainly the regular one, is through conversion.

[42:28]

That means from the world, as St. Benedict himself, as a student, he enters the monastic life as a life of conversion. and the life of tenants. And then you have the other group, the other recruiting way for a monastery, and that is if parents bring their children to the monastery and offer them up at the altar. Now, Saint Benedict accepts that. He accepts that way of the recruiting. And based on these two, as you know, you have the two groups in medieval monasteries very strongly distinguish the conversi and the nutriti. Inutriti are those who have been brought to the monasteries as little boys and have received their entire education in the monastery. Nikonversi are those who have, before they enter the monastery, done everything but.

[43:34]

Then the neutrities are therefore boys who grow up in the monastic environment protected against the bad influences of the world. It's a system of protection, a system of keeping the innocent. widely convinced it are those who come to the monastery through their own personal conviction and through a break in their life and therefore take the monastic life much more deliberately as a way of salvation. But both in that way, both the Nutriti and the Conversi, of course, agree that for them the monastic life is the haven which protects them against and saves them from the dangers of the world. You see, that is, of course, a concept which, you see that right away, which in, let us say, roughly in a Josephinistic monastery is not very strong.

[44:56]

the idea that the monastery is a haven against the evils of the world, because the world may not even be considered as such a tremendous evil. I don't think that Joseph II did. The world is very well off, under a good state, you know. They can't take care of that. So, therefore, they are much more conformative with this world. But the others, there is an opposition there. But then there are these two groups, and one can say, again, as a kind of bluff, let us say, today in our days, the new treaty, uh group and you know treaty spirit of protection against the world that is very strong in the italian and in the spanish monasteries

[46:04]

When we go to Monte Cassino, then you see there, there is that novice table right in the prefectory. There's that novice table, and at that novice table you see all, you see them down, you know, at about 14, 13 or 12 years of age. You see all lined up and all taken with tremendous solemnity and with little boys, you know, with great self-assurance, you know. taking part in all the monastic exercises, walking down two by two in groups, you know, these enormous corridors to their own borders, and in choir, you know, having a place, singing, just like the old ones. So that, you see there, the kind of vocation that goes there, it comes through the operate school. And that is, for example, very strong in a monastery like Mozart.

[47:06]

You see, in these monasteries, and to a certain extent one can add to them the Swiss monasteries, where in Einsiedeln or Engelberg, the school is an appendix to the monastery. And the students wear the castles. So they are, therefore, members of these little monks, members of that family. And that's the atmosphere in which they grow up. And in Ein Siedel, it's very strong. If you have not been in the school of Ein Siedel, then to become an Ein Siedel monk is very difficult. Father Beat Reiser, who had not been to the Einsiedeln, he always told me, he said, Mario, I come from Swabia, you see, but I never really got into it. The others, you know, if you haven't been raised in Einsiedeln, then you are not, you may do what you want, you'll never become the real Einsiedeln.

[48:13]

So, that is, you know, I only say that so that you may see what I mean with this nutritive, you know. Don't say that any... I see the look. But I mean, therefore, you know, the monastic, you see, the monastic routine, Just as if you grow into something, then the routine into which you grow is unquestioned. It has been this way for centuries. That is the way I have learnt it when I was thirty years old, and that is the way it is now. No one always said that. And that was the tremendous difficulty in all monasteries with the neutrities. They never made good abbots because they didn't know the problems. So that, for example, Cluny, I'm told, was really made great through the conversi, not through the neutrity.

[49:24]

All the great abbots of Cluny, in fact, were conversi. So I'll check that up at this moment. And that is true, you see, you have another group And they are the conversing. Let's call them conversing. And that is a strong, I have to say, that gives a certain character, for example, to the French monasteries and also the German, Rhineland, Boiron and so on. They are that is based on the conversing. I can see that in France, certainly Cluny, the monastic movement was that way. This is the Persian movement in France was that way. The Trappist movement in France, that was all called Dempsey. And today, you know, too, they are leaving. French wood, I would say the primitive, so what we call the dictates of the combination of subliaco, you know, and also the soleil.

[50:33]

That is a conversi, let us say, spirit and atmosphere. And that, you see that right away. If somebody enters the monastery for that reason, let's put it roughly for the reason of penance, Then, of course, the monastic life as such has a completely different meaning. You have three groups now. You have those who live in the monasteries somehow, let us say, as officials of a public institution, educational or parochial, and you have those who live in the monasteries as a... the autos conclusus in which they have grown up since they were boys, and you have those who live in monasteries and give of God's Spirit as conveyance. And those three groups are really distinguished and visible groups in such a gathering of the prophets.

[51:39]

The riddle in this whole thing is the Englishman. Well, I'd like to ask you a couple of questions.

[51:46]

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