So this evening, we're going to study Case No. 17 in the book of Serenity. And this is a request from Ron. And so when Ron requests something, I respond. So this particular column is based on one of the oldest Zen poems. I don't know if it's called a poem, exactly, but it's a verse. A what? Verse. Verse. It's a verse. And this is by Kanshi Sosan Taiyosho, the third Chinese ancestor from the 16th.

[01:11]

The third Chinese ancestor from Bodhidharma. You know, Sosan was an interesting fellow. Apparently, he had leprosy. It's called Fengkang. And nobody knows very much about him. But he died standing up, holding onto a tree. He said, watch this trick. This stuff is legend, right? So we don't know much about that legend. But apparently, you know, he was ready to go, so he did that. So the Xinxin Ming is well known. I'm sure many of you are familiar with the Xinxin Ming.

[02:14]

It's quite long, actually. And you've studied it over the years. I studied it a long time ago. I'll read you a little of the Xinxin Ming, just for familiarity. Because it just talks about the first paragraph. Actually, just the first sentence. So I'll expand on it a bit. The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When freed from love and hate, it reveals itself clearly and undisguised. A hair's breadth difference and heaven and earth are set apart. If you want it to appear, have no opinions for or against it. The duality of like and dislike is the dis-ease of the mind.

[03:15]

When a deep meaning is not understood, the mind's essential peace is disturbed. The Way is perfectly vast like vast space where nothing is lacking and nothing is in excess. Because of grasping and rejecting, you will miss its suchness. Pursue not the outer entanglements. Dwell not in the inner void. In oneness and equality, confusion vanishes of itself. Stop activity and return to stillness. Within that stillness is the great dynamic activity. Falling into one extreme or the other, how can you recognize oneness? Not penetrating the unity of the Way, both sides go astray. To deny the existence of things is to miss the reality. To fall into the emptiness of things is to miss the reality. So the more you talk and think about it, the more you go astray. So all of this pertains to this koan that we're going to study.

[04:20]

The more you talk and think about it, the more you go astray. So this koan just takes one sentence here. And it focuses on that. And it's very little talk. But then there's quite a lot to this continuing. So I assume that you either have a book or a generic copy or something like that. So you can follow along. So this is called Fayan's Hare's Breath. Fayan is a well-known Tang Dynasty Zen master. Xin Xin Ming means faith, actually, in mind.

[05:26]

Faith in Xin. So Xin has several meanings. It means mind, heart, or the Way. So this is an introduction. And in the introduction, the commentator produces the introduction. He says, A pair of solitary wild geese flap on the ground and fly up high. You can visualize that. A couple of Mandarin ducks stand alone by the back of the pond, leaving aside for the moment the meeting of arrow points. What about when a saw cuts a scale beam?

[06:31]

This is very obscure. But... So a pair of solitary wild geese flap on the ground and fly up high. So these are like a pair, right? And the pair are doing something together. And they're pretty much in sync with each other. Right? A couple of Mandarin ducks stand alone by the back of the pond. So they're kind of like in sync with each other. Kind of like two arrow points meeting in midair, or a box in a slit. But leaving aside for the moment the meeting of arrow points, what about when a saw cuts a scale beam? So a scale beam is like, you know, they talk about the balance beam.

[07:39]

The Statue of Liberty has two, has a scale there. Not the Statue of Liberty, but Liberty has a scale. Justice. Justice has a scale, right? With, you know, the two saws and the scale beam, it's like what it's balanced on. So basically it's the balance beam. So what about when a saw cuts a scale beam? Or a balance beam, I suppose. In other words, when is it time to get rid of the balance beam? Okay, that's the introduction. Preparing your mind. So here is the case. Fa-yan-es-ya-sha. So here are these two Zen masters, Fa-yan and Ziya-sha.

[08:47]

And Fa-yan is actually, I'm sorry, Ziyu-sha. Ziyu-sha. He says, ahead of breadth's difference is as the distance between heaven and earth. Now how do you understand? So if you remember when I read the poem, that was one of the lines in the poem. Ahead of breadth's difference is a very famous line. Ahead of breadth's difference is like the distance between heaven and earth. Which is a funny statement. What is the distance between heaven and earth? Is there a distance? No. But, so this is a question. Well, what is the distance? Ten inches or a million miles? Or is there a distance? Is there a gap? So, you know, this is the question.

[09:54]

How do you determine whether or not there is a gap? So what if there isn't a gap? What does that mean? That means all is one. If there's no gap, oneness. But at the same time, oneness needs two-ness in order to not get stuck. So this is what makes it a poem. Falyan asked Ziyushan. Ahead of breadth's difference is as the distance between heaven and earth. How do you understand it? Ziyushan said, Ahead of breadth's difference is as the distance between heaven and earth. He just repeats it. And then Falyan said,

[10:57]

How can you get it that way? How can you get it that way by repeating what I said? And then Ziyushan said, I am just thus. What about you? Falyan said, Ahead of breadth's difference is as the distance between heaven and earth. Ziyushan thereupon bowed. So here's the commentary. The master Ziyushan and Falyan There should be a comma there. The master of Ziyushan, comma, and Falyan, two people, both studied with Dijon. Deeply benefiting from the power of refinement of studying from the side. That's interesting. Studying from the side. Kind of means indirectly.

[12:01]

When I was at Tassajara in 1970, I was a shuso. And Tatsugami Roshi was the teacher from the Heiji. And he was teaching people to do the chanting. He was a great chanting teacher. And I said, Can I do that too? And he said, No. You should observe from the shadow. That's what he said. You should observe from the shadow. I mean, stand by the side and you get it by observation, which is a Japanese way of actually teaching. So the masters Ziyushan and Falyan both studied with Dijon. Deeply benefiting from the power of refinement of studying from the side. Or from the shadow. The public case.

[13:06]

This public case is the same as when Falyan broke down Superintendent Tzu. We don't know who that is, but maybe we'll find out. Who was thereupon enlightened. Superintendent Tzu was Chan Mokshap Master Zhuansha of Bao'en Monastery in Qilin. Falyan asked him, Who have you seen? In other words, who did you study with? And Zhuansha said, I saw Master Qingfeng. Falyan said, What did he say? Zhuansha said, I asked him, what is the student's self? And Qingfeng said, The god of fire comes seeking fire. Falyan said, How do you understand this? Zhuansha said, The god of fire is in the province of fire. To seek fire by fire is like seeking the self by the self.

[14:07]

Falyan said, Even understanding in this way, how would you get it? Zhuansha said, I am just thus. So here we have, I am just thus, again. I don't know what your idea is, Master. Falyan said. You ask me and I'll tell you, Zhuansha says. What is the student's self? And Falyan said, The god of fire comes seeking fire. Zhuansha was suddenly enlightened at these words. So, this is not very well told, this story. It's told in a better way, to make more sense. And so we have here, Suzuki Roshi's version, which is more common. Which I think that you have. And this story illustrates the first story.

[15:12]

Because it's about, I'll tell you what it's about when we're finished. Okay, so Falyan confronted Zhuansha. Zhuansha. How come you never ask any questions? He's a student who's been at the monastery for three years. And, Falyan. He was studying with Falyan. And so he never came to visit the teacher. He was one of those students that thinks, you know, I know he's the teacher here, but I had a good teacher. And why do I have to see him? I probably know as much as he does. Do we have these students from time to time? So, Falyan confronted Zhuansha.

[16:18]

How come you never ask any questions? You've been here for three years, and you've never said anything to me. You seem to be avoiding me, as a matter of fact. Well, I don't want to mislead you. Zhuansha said, I must confess, when I was with Master Qingfeng, I attained a peaceful, blessed enlightenment. So I don't feel like I need to come and talk to you. By what words did you enter that place? Asked Falyan. Zhuansha answered, when I asked Qingfeng, what is the self of the practitioner? He said, the fire boy seeks fire. It could be interpreted as the god of fire, but that's actually using the fire boy. The fire boy seeks fire. Fire boy could be the god of fire. Good words, Falyan, you know.

[17:19]

But I'm afraid you didn't understand them. So Zhuansha tried to explain, the fire boy belongs to the fire. Fire seeking fire is just like the self seeking the self. But Falyan stopped him. Indeed, you didn't understand. If the Buddha Dharma was like that, it wouldn't have come down to this day. Zhuansha was greatly upset by this, and indignantly stood up and left. He actually left the monastery. But on the way, he thought, you know, Falyan is the teacher of 500 monks. He didn't approve of me, but what he said should be correct. So he turned back and approached Falyan. Bowing, he apologized. I'm very sorry that I got up and left. Falyan responded, well, about this question, why don't you ask me what I think of this question? OK, Zhuansha said,

[18:22]

what is the self of the practitioner? Falyan said, the fire boy seeks fire. Falyan said, and at that, Zhuansha experienced great awakening. Do you see the parallel? No. I don't know if this is... Is this Ron? Is this yours? OK. Here's Ron's comment. No, this is your comment. Oh. This is my comment. You can acknowledge me if you want. No. I'll read you my comment. This is one of Siddhiji's famous stories. Zhuansha said, Zhuansha was a good student,

[19:23]

and in a way, he had some understanding intellectually. The fire boy seeks fire. It's not very hard to understand. The fire boy seeks fire. Buddha seeks Buddha nature. What everyone is seeking is their true self. Of course, and it's right here all the time. Zhuansha's arrogance was a block to his understanding. But when he returned and humbled himself before the teacher of the block lifting, that was the turning point. Just as the turning point, just at the turning point that he could give up, it is just at that point that he gave up his arrogance. Everything started to flow. At the point where he gave up his arrogance, everything started to flow very nicely. So, I'm going to read you the case again and see if you can pick up on the parallel. Zhuansha. Fa Yan as Zhuansha. A hair's breadth difference is as a difference between heaven and earth. How do you understand?

[20:24]

Zhuansha said, a hair's breadth difference is as a distance between heaven and earth. Well, it sounds like the same thing. Right? Fire boy seeks fire. Wrong answer. Except when he came back, it was the right answer. The wrong answer was obviously the right answer. But given the situation, the right answer was the wrong answer. So, Fa Yan said, how can you get it that way? Meaning, you don't get it. Then Zhu Shan said, I am just thus. What about you? In other words, this is my understanding. What is yours? And Fa Yan said, a hair's breadth difference is as a distance between heaven and earth. Zhu Shan thereupon bowed.

[21:29]

This is maybe subtle. It's about mouthing something is different than understanding it. In both cases, mouthing it is different than understanding it, even though it's the same words. I mean, it seems in this one that I am just thus. What about you? is kind of the turnpike that I don't get. I don't really understand why. It's kind of a turning. I am like this. What about you? Yes. So, I am like this, kind of means this is my understanding. This is truly my understanding. So, do you approve of me or not? Then,

[22:36]

then Fa Yan said, a hair's breadth difference is as a difference between heaven and earth. And, then Zhu Shan got it. And he bowed. Just like Fa Yan, just like Xuanzang, when he came back, and Fa Yan quoted the same statement, and Zhu Shan got it. So, it's about mouthing something and understanding it. It's not like he was wrong.

[23:37]

It's not like his statement was wrong. But, he had not, it was not his, it was not his statement. It was just a statement. But, when he gave up his arrogance, it became his, his true statement. Right? His true understanding. And in the same way, Zhu Shan, when he had the same realization, when he gave up. Yeah. But also, I think there's something, I mean, you can hear something or read it, but I think there's an implication that when, you know, a teacher says it, and it's coming from his experience, then somebody can get it.

[24:39]

It's different. It's different, yeah. Right. Yes. But, also, this is moving ahead a little bit. You may not want to do that, because you might go through it sequentially, but if you go into the commentary, there's a sentence where he says, Nowadays, if you ask people about it, a thousand out of a thousand wouldn't make a logical understanding. Yes. Which is, what the fire boy did. He tried to make a logical understanding. What would it mean to blah, blah, blah. A logical understanding. Yes. Or else, just stay in the realm of non-striving, which is kind of what he's doing when he's just repeating what was just said. He's not trying to, he's trying to be as close as he can to avoid a gap. And he's just, by repeating it, that's his way of not creating a gap. But it's a kind of a non-striving,

[25:41]

by just mirroring or saying it over again. And both are those two, one is aggressive, trying to figure it all out, and the other is just being a little floppy. It's all one. Yeah. Those are the two. Yes, well, so, so, Fa Yan, this is page 17. At the end, where Zhuang Sha said, what is the student's self? And Fa Yan said, the god of fire comes seeking fire. Zhuang Sha was suddenly enlightened at these words. Fa Yan had chisel and awl in his hands. Taken away, his seal remains. Left there, the seal is ruined. He broke up Superintendent Zhe's barrier of feelings and pulled open Master Zhu Shang's

[26:43]

chains of consciousness. Um, these are strange words, chisel and awl is like, I'm not sure exactly what chisel and awl, but that's carving something, right? You're carving something. So, Fa Yan had chisel and awl in his hands. And the Dharma seal, taken away, the seal remains. I think, you know, chisel and awl means, the Dharma seal is like the impression of, in this case,

[27:45]

realization. So you go, you have the seal, and you press it down. If you don't pick it up, it's not there. You have to pick it up as well. You have to put it down, and you have to pick it up. And when you pick it up, there's the seal. So, Fa Yan had chisel and awl in hands. Taken away, the seal remains. Left there, the seal is ruined. So he broke up Superintendent Zhe's barrier of feelings and pulled open Master Zhu Shang's chains of consciousness. Um... So... Ah... This is like Fa Yan's approval.

[28:47]

I read that differently. I sort of read that that, you know, he sort of broke them down a little bit. Broke them down? Yeah, you know, in terms of like the arrogance, you know, the arrogance, or the, you know, and so, and then the realization was there. Yeah. Oh yeah, of course. So that's what the awl and the... Yeah, it's like, you know, he, yeah, broke them down. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. Yes. So, um... So, also, the, the, I was thinking that the seal is like attachment. If you leave it in, if you, you know, okay,

[29:50]

I'm making a seal, but then you're stuck there. You don't want to let go of it. So like, attaching to either side is, is you're stuck there unless you take it away. In other words, you take it away, and then there's, as long as you're, as long as you're stuck in your action, either, you know, plus or minus, or pro or con, you're, you're not, you're not, you're not really, um, flowing. Well, that's interesting. Well, Master's, uh, you know, stuck in here. Um,

[30:51]

so, um, chains of consciousness are interesting um, because, uh, I think he, what he means beyond chains of consciousness means is explanatory, his need to, to, to think and explain. Um, and this barrier of feeling, so, thinking and feeling, right, these are, uh, in order to understand what is being taught, is being expressed here, it has to go beyond feelings and, uh, explanations.

[32:04]

So that's, you know, Broca, superintendent says barrier of feelings and pulled open um, Master Zyushin's chains of consciousness being, being caught by consciousness. Um, so that, uh, in, in both of these examples is intuition, which means directly understanding, directly touching. The only way that the, that either of these uh, uh, students could, um, uh, respond accurately was through intuition, directly touching, not through explanation or thinking or feeling. Yeah. So is the parallel between the two stories then that an intellectual understanding of the, and then a feeling?

[33:07]

Yeah, that's exactly, the intellectual understanding is there, but that's not it. It's the intuitive. Intuition means, um, uh, is true mind. Big mind is intuition. And so allowing big mind to, um, be expressed is, um, what that's about. Is it the same as insight? I can't hear you. Is it the same as insight? Well, insight, I don't know, insight is like looking inside. Insight? Uh, I don't know. Is it just an intellectual understanding? Yeah, it's not an intellectual understanding. I would call it intuition rather than insight. Did you say insight or inside? Insight. Yeah, insight. No, I would say intuition. Because insight is still thinking.

[34:08]

Whereas intuition is beyond thinking. Intuition means directly touching without having to go through the, um, the process of thinking. Well, knowing the possibilities somehow. No, it's just direct. It's simply just direct. In other words, the response comes up directly. It's not insight. It's intuition. I'm not sure that the Vipassana groups would agree that insight is dependent upon thinking. Just in terms of words. I don't think that they think that it's just a matter of thinking. Well, maybe. I can't say whether they do or not. But, Has anybody practiced Vipassana? But, um, insight is associated with with, um, knowledge. Insight is associated

[35:14]

with, um, um, investigation. Called Panya. Whereas, uh, intuition is Prajna. So there's a difference between Panya and Prajna. Panya is knowledge gained from thinking. Whereas, Prajna is intuitive um, wisdom. Which is direct. It's not, it's not filtered through um, the discriminating mind. That's what the story is about, actually. It's about directly touching and not because, um, um, uh, I was going to say, is it also, um, according with sameness,

[36:15]

the first understanding? According with sameness is still not enlightenment. Yeah. That's what it's about. That's right. According with sameness is still not enlightenment. But, um, uh, Uh, is that what, is that what both, the parallel and the first understanding because the, okay, so for the first one, Prajna challenges by saying how can you get it that way? So he's saying how can you get it just by according with sameness? How can you get it this way by simply, um, by insight? How can you get it this way by um, uh, by thinking about it? By, in other words, by discursive thinking. You can only get it by letting go of everything and letting the response come up. And this, so this is, yeah, according with, no,

[37:16]

it's not according with sameness. No. It's a Harris-Breadth difference. That's right, it's okay. A Harris-Breadth difference has the gap. So, each one of those had a Harris-Breadth difference. Even though it sounded right, it's a Harris-Breadth difference. Yeah. The case seems clear now that you've been talking about it. Yeah. They discuss Harris-Breadth difference between heaven and earth and that's an idea outside of themselves. Harris-Breadth difference. And they talk about it and they say it back. And then he says, I'm just thus. Uh-huh. Yes. Uh-huh. That's the fullness of it, not an idea. I'm just thus. Thus means as it is. As it is. Not an idea. Not an idea. Yes. So, I'm just thus. What about you? And then

[38:17]

Fayan answers him with the same sentence. Right? But, and then this is like the two of them became one. Right? So, he came up with the proper response. So, when he, when, when Zeeshan expressed it again at the end, he knew what he was talking, he knew what he was talking about. And he bowed. And he bowed. Right? But, let's go on. So, here we are page 17 again. Is that? 73. Number 17. Page 73. Sorry. So, in the third patriarch's poem of the mind of faith, which is the poem we're talking about, it says, which is the beginning,

[39:19]

it's quoting the very beginning of the poem. The ultimate way is without difficulty is only avoiding being choosy You don't hate or love, be naturally open, clear and pure. If there is even a hair's breadth of difference, it is as the distance between heaven and earth. So, Fa Yan used this to question the master Zeeshan, making it a piece of tile to knock on the door. Nowadays, if you ask people about it, a thousand out of a thousand would make a logical understanding or else just stay in the realm of non-striving. So, the realm of non-striving, you know, it's not, you know, you see the, this is Nansen and Joshu, right? Nansen says, what is the way? Joshu asks Nansen,

[40:19]

what is the way? And Nansen says, ordinary mind is the way. And then Joshu said, should I go for it or not? And Nansen says, if you, if you go for it, you stumble past. And if you don't go for it, you just remain in non-striving, basically. So, what do I do? Do I go for it or not go for it? That's the goal. So, you know, it's about how do you let go? It's always about how do you let go? So, in the third Patriarchs, I'm going to repeat that again, in the third Patriarchs poem on the mind of faith, it says, which is this poem we're talking about, the ultimate way is without difficulty. It is only avoiding being choosing. Just don't hate or love. Don't fall into duality of it.

[41:20]

In other words, you know, it's okay to hate, it's okay to love. Just don't get caught by them. Be naturally open, clear, and pure. If there's even a hair's breadth of difference, it's a big question. It is as the distance between heaven and earth. So, Fa Yan used this question, used this to question the Master of Ziyushin. Making it a piece of tile to knock on the door. In other words, it's a tool. So, nowadays, if you ask people about it, a thousand out of a thousand would make a logical understanding. Or else, just stay in the realm of, you know, leave everything alone. So, Ziyushin, this one here, didn't fall into speculative thought. He just said, the hair's breadth of difference is as the distance between heaven

[42:20]

and earth. He quite evidently had the relaxation of mastery. But when Fa Yan, after all, didn't accept him, but said, how can you get it that way? This is why he was dumbfounded. I mean, this is why he was fountain, well, the fountainhead of the Fa Yan stream. Yeah. I'm going to read that again. Ziyushin, this one here, that's put in Yushin, it's not put in there, this one here, being in Yushin, Ziyushin, didn't fall into speculative thought. He just said, the hair's breadth, he repeated, the hair's breadth of difference is as the distance between heaven and earth. He quite evidently had the relaxation of mastery. But when Fa Yan, who could see through him, after all, didn't accept him, but said, how can you get it that way? This is why he was the fountainhead of the Fa Yan stream. Who is the he?

[43:21]

Um, Fa Yan, I believe. Yeah. At this point here, I always tell the students to divide their bodies into two and look. In other words, dividing two means to observe. Uh, uh, um, objectively. You can't, you can't observe objectively until you, unless you divide yourself in two. Um, when Master Zixuan said that this is the first place, why was it not, said this in the first place, why was it not accepted? Then afterwards, why did Fa Yan turn around and say the same thing? Repeat it, right? Then afterwards, why did Fa Yan turn around and say the same thing? In the meantime, Zixuan, Zixuan said, I am just thus,

[44:22]

how about you? He was looking for an utterly new sun and moon to make a separate life. Now, Fa Yan didn't slip a bit another way. He stood his ground. Not a bad answer, but he stood his, but Fa Yan stood his ground, didn't accept it. Like before, he said simply, eh, I stood it the difference between heaven and earth. Hmm. So, Dong Shan Ji said, here comes a new person, the master of Zixuan, this is a commentary on it, he's commenting, he said, the master of Zixuan responded in this way, why didn't Fa Yan agree? And then, when he questioned further, a second time, he got, Fa Yan just said the same thing, where Zixuan got it. I think it's saying

[45:23]

what we said. Tell me, where's the puzzle? Where's the puzzle? If you can see through, I would say you've got something to go on. I say, how could you get it, how could you get it that way? So, this is all about the, right, this is why it is said. It is the same way as ever. When you meet someone and talk about it, then it becomes confusing. Zixuan, thereupon, bowed. He understood. All right, but intellectual reasoning, it's hard to admit. Wu Zu Jie would have struck Zixuan right against the back in Fa Yan's head. I say, so it turns out, some books have Fa Yan saying, the master of the mountain has penetrated. I say,

[46:24]

neither of these fellows have done with playing with a mud ball. This is a kind of, you know, a way of speaking, which, playing with a mud ball means, you know, there's no substance, it just kind of finally disintegrates. So, I guess what you can say is they're throwing the same phrase back and forth. That's playing with a mud ball. Yeah? I don't know if this is clear, but there's something in the way that these people talk with each other reminds me of, like maybe they grew up in the same town. Yeah. It's called China. That's a big town.

[47:26]

One of them says, well, I'm from this town. And the other one says, oh, I'm from that town too. What do you remember about that town? And maybe one of them kind of feels like the other one is boasting a little bit, like maybe he's not really from there, or maybe he doesn't know as much about the places he's making out. So they're just like playing with each other. So they, you know, toss the mud ball back and forth. And then finally, they, you know, they see that they're both confident in their, you know, kind of in their being from the town. And so then they come to a place where they can, they don't have to fathom about it anymore. They don't have to show that one, you know, one has a better understanding.

[48:30]

Well, so that's how they meet. What they need to do is to come to the same understanding. That's the point. Yeah, when they come to the same understanding. So, the teacher has an understanding that the student doesn't have. And the teacher is helping him to understand when he doesn't understand. So they throw this mud ball back and forth until, and the problem, the problem that is being put out here is that the statement is going back and forth. But the understanding

[49:32]

that the teacher has is intuitive. Whereas the understanding that the student has is intellectual. It's just an idea. And the teacher skillfully helps the student to see the reality intuitively. So then they agree. This is like the, you know, these students are ready. They just need a little tap to break out of the shell. So this is the koan of the mother hen pecking the egg just at the right point, just at exactly the right time

[50:33]

to help the chick out of the egg. I don't think that really happens, but that's the koan. The mother hen pecks, peck, peck, peck, and then the chick pecks from inside and the mother pecks from outside. And then together they open, they break open the shell. That's what this is like in both cases. So Fayan, some books have Fayan saying the master of the mountain has penetrated. That's Zixuan.

[51:36]

I say neither of these fellows is done with playing with a mud ball. If at that time Fayan had said to me how could you get it that way, I would say, this is the commentator, I would say to him long have I heard that you have this functional key to teach her or else I would join hands and go right along seeing to it that it is said all at once. When he doesn't believe, let's ask Tian Tong. So Tian Tong has a verse. In other words, the commentator has this kind of comment and says if it was me I would just wash my hands of it and walk away. I wouldn't bother with all this stuff. These cases in the book of Serenity are very intricate and have their references that are very

[52:38]

you kind of have to know what they're talking about or else don't do it what they're talking about. You have to really intuit what's going on here. You can't figure it out if you're thinking even though thinking is involved. So, he's saying I would just wash my hands as the commentator said. I would just wash my hands and walk away. He said I would join hands and go along seeing to it that it is said all at once or when he doesn't believe me. So, let's ask Tian Tong what his verse is. So Tian Tong is going to make a verse to express the meaning. And here's his verse. When a fly sits on the balance he tilts. In other words a fly doesn't weigh anything, right? But if he lands on it

[53:39]

it tilts. The balance scale of myriad ages shows up unevenness. Pounds, ounces, grams and grains. You see them clearly. But after all it finally reverts and gives up to my zero point. So, this is explained. So, the first sentence when the fly sits on the balance it tilts. So, here's his commentary on that. Tian Tong's opening line immediately diversifies the hair's breadth difference is that between heaven and earth. Hair's breadth difference means that in the balance of the scale when you have equal balance if a fly lands on one side it changes the balance. So, that's like a hair's breadth difference. Master

[54:42]

Hui Yuan of Lushan said his two cents Ultimately how can basis and aspect come from the realm of origin and destruction being and nothingness? A slight involvement with the shifting environment shows a force capable of disintegrating the mountain. Basically he's saying the slightest deviation is just another example of the slightest deviation and heaven and earth are separated. A slight movement with the shifting environment shows a force capable of disintegrating this mountain which is you this mountain form. The third patriarch said that's seng sa

[55:43]

so sa the word avoid or choice himself already hating and loving from the first but then he says just don't hate or love and be naturally open clear and pure. You people step back and examine yourselves carefully. So hating and loving are examples of a gap. As soon as there's hating and loving there's a gap between heaven and earth. In other words discrimination creates a gap so a discriminating mind loves and hates. All opposites are caused by discrimination good and bad

[56:45]

right and wrong light and dark it's all discrimination and so we are living in the world of a gap. Yeah we live in the world of a gap that's called seng sa it's called the place that we live because we're always discriminating on the basis of right and wrong good and bad and so forth we have to do that it's not wrong to do that it just misses something it misses completeness also we don't have to hold on to it so tightly as we do we don't have to hold on to that because although we do discriminate we don't have to hold on to the discrimination so tightly yeah the point is not getting caught by discrimination knowing how to live in the realm of discrimination without being a victim of it basically and it's interesting

[57:47]

how he actually kind of teases Third Patriarch using the word avoid which is I think one of the translations he says avoid hating and loving which is already hating you know like get away from that yeah well yeah avoidance yeah right so you know just it's very difficult to understand unless he sits outside because in Zazen you let go of discriminating mind I mean if you really sit outside you let go of discriminating mind that's what Zazen is thinks everything comes and goes but you don't get caught by anything thoughts come and go feelings come and go emotions come and go but you don't get caught by them so this is called cutting the cat in one so

[58:50]

this is like when a fly sits on the balance it tilts right the Third Patriarch said if the word avoid or choice himself already hating and loving from the first in other words he's saying the Third Patriarch of course is hating and loving from the first but then he's he says just don't hate or love and be naturally open and clear you people step back and examine yourselves carefully and then the balance the second sentence the balance scale of myriad ages shows up unevenness the balance scale shows up unevenness well it's not equal the Sanskrit word samadhi samadhi means equilibrium basically that's one meaning good one the Sanskrit word samadhi means

[59:50]

equilibrium um um in various samadhis but not lost or sunk he says not oblivious not agitated remaining equanimous equanimous so it's like equanimity this can be the balance scale of myriad ages it shows up unevenness so yes when you um are in samadhi which is the balanced state the stable balanced state that's what basically samadhi is then you you you realize what unevenness is because you are even in the pictorial explanations of in the essentials of government for ministry presidents like the Chinese um manual I suppose it says

[60:51]

that weighing has three senses a level is for conjoining that's a level in carpentry that is um a balance is balance evens and a scale equalizes so this is like balancing heaven and earth basically right when heaven samadhi means the oneness of heaven and earth where heaven and earth become one that's samadhi where um that's where there's no gap samadhi is the place of no gap samadhi is the place of intuition directly touching so uh then he says in the heroic march in the heroic march scripture that's a surangama sutra surangama sutra is called the heroic is the heroic march

[61:52]

scripture it says in that self sustaining stable state of samadhi perception and objects of perception including all forms conceived of are like flowers in the sky fundamentally without any existence fundamentally without any existence they just come in everything is just a flashing into existence momentarily even though things look stable we're all sitting here we sat here last time you know same people but actually everything is flashing everything is just flashing into existence moment by moment it's just that um we see certain moments as long and certain moments as short according to our perceptions so fundamentally all forms conceived of are like flowers in the sky fundamentally

[62:52]

without any existence this seeing and its objects are originally the wondrous pure redeemed body of enlightenment how could there be any affirmation or denial there at this time you don't need to be choosy you are aloof um from dislike or like there is not even a hair breadth difference how could there be separation between clouds and mud meaning heaven and earth so clouds and mud means heaven and earth so um but all of these wonderful momentary flashes of um uh like flowers in the sky are the pure redeemed body of enlightenment so um everything is both mundane and holy at the same time

[63:52]

mundane and what? holy holy ha um so when we discriminate we discriminate the mundane from the holy this is earthly and that's heavenly this is saintly and that's um criminal or whatever but actually in the realm of um equilibrium equanimity everything's the same it's the same nature basically it's not the same nature yeah equanimity is the hair's breadth difference between heaven and earth no equanimity is the balance it's the balance between heaven and earth the hair's breadth difference no difference where there is no difference even though where it comes together yeah where it comes together yeah that's that's the hair that's the hair or the breadth the hair

[64:55]

you know it's like um although there's a difference the difference is not fundamental so we have to understand intellectually do you want to understand intellectually that um on a horizontal level everything is equal on a vertical level everything is different so where the equality and the difference meet that's where there's no difference that's the hair that's the no hair no hair no gap so it's momentary it's momentary so there are two moments momentaries

[65:59]

there's the momentary which is discontinuous and the momentary that's continuous the momentary that's discontinuous is like one you can watch the second bop [...] that's discontinuous because each number is discontinued one two one is discontinued three two is discontinued we live in discontinuous time because that's clock time it's discontinuous it seems continuous but it's discontinuous because each moment is a different frame but it looks it's like when you have a sparkler that then you go it looks like a circle but it's not I mean it's a circle you're making it a circle but it's not continuous it's only

[67:00]

it's it's an illusion of a of a circle so continuous time means something is always there forever that's continuous so continuous time is now so it's very hard to live in continuous time because of our our way of seeing time as being discontinuous so the only the way to experience continuous time is as in because even though you said for 40 minutes right? as soon as you start as soon as when you let go of that and just sit from breath to breath one moment at a time then that's continuous time because each moment is total time

[68:04]

and as soon as you start to discriminate then you're in discontinuous time as soon as you start to discriminate you're in discontinuous time and the only way to get back to continuous time is to let go and say I wonder when the bell's going to ring so the tick-tock time really screws us up just right from the beginning doesn't it? well, we need it we need it yeah we need it it's not like it's wrong or bad it's just discontinuous so we say well we start here at 7.15 if we didn't have that you know so we need to have some order in our lives and that's the way we do it other people don't use a clock people say you people from America you're always looking at your watches and looking at the clock I'll be there I'll be there tomorrow afternoon and we wait for them

[69:08]

two weeks later they show up what's wrong? what's the matter? so we just all create time differently it's just our creation discontinuous time is just our creation so we live in discontinuous time and continuous time at the same time but the problem is that we are pushed around by discontinuous time but we like it so but we should understand the difference heaven so to speak is continuous time it's just a term we use heaven heaven to make a distinction between earth so heaven is continuous time you know it just is and then earth is discontinuous time so the oneness

[70:11]

of this continuous and discontinuous time is where there's no gap but because we're always in discontinuous time there's a gap between that and continuous time so the problem we have is we don't want to leave discontinuous time because that's where we have our interest so birth and death is also you know we identify the problem is we identify with the self our with the manas our self as myself but actually myself is not just this person myself is the is the universe so when we identify with the universe it's not so hard to let go of the self because the hard part

[71:12]

of letting go of the self is that we feel lost when we do that but if we have an expansive understanding intuition of the vastness of our true self then it's not so hard to let go because my old teacher said don't worry you will never get lost in the universe we're afraid of getting lost in the universe so we're afraid to stop breathing we all are afraid to stop we don't want to do that but we will we must and then what? so then the third line is pounds ounces grams and grains you see them quite easily what kind of

[72:14]

different weights measurements so as for pound and then that's the third line of the verse and then on page 75 as for pounds ounces grams and grains it's a weight measure in the Chinese system so it goes into that 8 shu equals a z 3 z equals a liang an ounce 16 liang equals a jin or a pound ok now as one with balance in hand if you bring a pound I shift a pound to make it even so he's talking about the balance on the the scale if you give me a pound I give you a pound I shift a pound to make it even if you bring two pounds I shift a pound if there be so much as a gram

[73:15]

or a grain increase a gap that's a gap it tilts right so everywhere they say get the meaning of the hook and this is number 4 but after all it finally reverts to and gives up to my zero point don't go by the zero point but after all there have never been any pounds or ounces on the zero point it is also like the north star maintaining its abode in its position the more or less on the hook are counted only according to the time the weight always shifting so I say unevenness with mind is not comparable to mindlessness in unevenness I say evenness with mind

[74:16]

is not comparable to mindlessness in unevenness in other words trying to make everything balance is really impossible impossible because everything is always falling out of balance you can only balance things for a moment but he's saying then I say evenness with mind is not comparable to mindlessness in unevenness mindlessness in unevenness means no matter how uneven it is you always are settled you always know where you are no matter how uneven how much chaos is going on you still are not there's no gap you don't need to settle everything out because it's impossible you have to be able to find your place in the universe

[75:16]

amidst all the unevenness this is the same as the Buddha's way is unsurpassable I found well yes for sure yeah so that is why selling people what they want from a market scale in both hands profit is made whatever the situation in other words right I'll read again that is why selling people what they want from a market scale in other words a market scale means no comparison there's nothing to compare with in both hands selling people what they want from a market scale in both hands profit is made whatever the situation in other words you're satisfied

[76:17]

with whatever you're always satisfied one of the most difficult thing for everybody is how to be satisfied that's the truth but do you understand what I'm saying the master of the mountain has penetrated the balance weight has shifted to the very tip suddenly pushing over a trillion pounds of pecks that's not my common experience is off the charts all things have equal value beyond comparison so this is beyond comparison so when he says the master of the mountain has penetrated if you look at the top of the preceding page it says some books have folly on saying the master of the

[77:17]

mountain has penetrated I say neither of these fellows have done with playing with a mud ball so there's a lot of you know underhanded humor that always goes on in these cases and you know the commentator will make it sound like he's criticizing but he's actually praising that's always the case that's why it's really if you take everything literally that's being said here you never understand so you know you have to read between the lines as Suzuki Roshi would say read the other side of the page because it's all kind of you know the Chinese always especially in those days always spoke in poetic terms in poetic language and that poetry

[78:18]

has to be it's really hard to translate and make it retain the poetic aspect of allusions alluding to this never really pointing directly but always making allusions so that you see it from this side and you see and if they tell you what it means it you know so this way of expression is to confuse you is to make you work to get what's being said because if you just say something you know it's not it and so it's talking about something that really hard to talk about because we're always speaking in dualistic terms it's hard to talk about non-duality in dualistic terms

[79:18]

so we're using all these allusions analogies and comparisons in order to bring out the point but the point is something that you have to intuit that's why it's a koan what is get the meaning on the hook? yeah I don't know they said everywhere they say it I know well what hook? okay the hook when you have a bell yeah and then you have a yeah you hook the weight onto the hook yeah but yeah but you slide the weight along on it you know yeah so why is it get the meaning get the meaning on that measuring well well if you go to

[80:28]

the modern market they have a scale it's not double scale it's a single scale and there's a hook and then you have the pan and you have the little chains that hold the pan and then there's a zero point and then a one two three just like cock yeah zero point so often they look at the zero point on the hook on scale so when you have zero if you have an equation and a line the bottom of the equation is zero below the line and above the line is one two three four five six seven eight nine ten so zero is absolute it is not a number zero is a non-discriminator and all of the

[81:28]

numbers are discriminators right they're all divisions discrimination is divided so all the numbers are discriminators but zero is not a discriminator but they all need they all need zero point on scale on the hook I guess I don't know if it's the scale in order to have meaning I understand the zero point I just don't get hook exactly I know well I ponder over that myself it doesn't stop me but I do ponder over that myself so okay I just want to I'm just going to go over this and take about one minute two minutes so here are some added sayings Herbert's difference is as the distance between heaven and earth

[82:30]

how do you understand and then the comment is he dares to budge and then Herbert's difference is as the difference between heaven and earth with difficulty what's difficult about letting the hundred grand plants contend so in other words the first one is about equality the second one is about difference how can you get it that way an iron mountain lies across the road in other words wow big impediment right I am just us what about you he turns his nose around and Herbert's difference is as the distance between heaven and earth so this is going through the first part I had thought there would be something else so this is like non-difference as we should there upon bound and then the commentator said he adds error to error meaning he got it why does that mean that

[83:32]

why does that mean that he adds error to error it means he got it that's just that's just a cynical comment it's like tongue in cheek instead of saying oh what a great answer oh he's just adding error to error too bad poor guy yeah so and then when a fly sits on a balance it tilts you can't fool it a single point the balance of myriad ages shows up unevenness when the measure is full the balance on stops pounds ounces grams grains you see them clearly don't misapprehend them after all the fly reverts and gives up to my zero point get the meaning out of my book I'm going to take a little break before we go

[84:42]

I need to tell you what the next one is well the next one is Feng Shui's single atom which is called 34 I mean it's number 34

[85:24]

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