I think we all know each other, but I'm Denkei Oroo. So, today I want to talk about a case in the Denko Roku, which is translated as Transmission of Light, which is a classical Soto text, which is attributed, compiled by Keizan, who was And there's a, you know, the introduction, this is a translation by Thomas Cleary that I like more, actually, than the other one that's available, which is, I forget who is it by, which is more recent. But in the introduction, he talks a little bit about the history of the book and all the

[01:08]

controversies in Soto Zen after Dogen and apparently there were a lot of schisms and disputes which I wasn't aware of until I read this and of course if we take his word for it so and then it also says that this book And although Daoguen also is known to, as we've read, often put other people down and try to clarify what's true enlightenment and what's not true enlightenment and so on and so forth.

[02:11]

So we have that kind of tension in his teaching. So I guess it's human. nature, causing conditions that create these schisms and disputes. So these are kind of the entanglements of communities. Entangling vines is often a term that is used to refer to I think he mentions this in the commentary, to talk about relationships, teacher-student relationships, and the relationships among the students. And so entangling binds is kind of a nice, non-dual metaphor, because there is an entanglement, a tangle,

[03:23]

a dance that takes place that has these two sides. But our practice, going back to practice realization, is really to be mindful of these entanglements, which doesn't mean gossip another thing you know I was I went to a meeting with a friend and to meet with somebody that I hadn't met but I knew about for a long time and So then, this is more on the professional side, talking about the entanglements among psychonautic groups, because there are always schools and sects and intra-divisions and inter-divisions and things as such.

[04:40]

you know, and there's kind of this interest also in colonization, you know, of kind of exporting the teaching, you know, which is kind of, often people do that, you know, at some point they want to start, you know, disseminating the teaching, which is kind of a nice way to think about it. Colonization is kind of a bad way to think about it. Often there are aspects of both, just like in the entanglements I mentioned before. So I was saying all these things that to me are kind of abhorrent, you know, that go on in communities, and in psychoanalytic communities, not in Zen communities. And this friend of mine said, you know, why did you have to say all that? You know, okay, so you have the experience, you've been through this, you know, you've been scarred by all these, affected by all these things, but why do you have to mention them in communication?

[05:56]

So it got me thinking, you know, sort of thinking, well, sort of what's the line between being kind of in denial and, on the other hand, gossiping? And what kind of state of mind do you want to have in that moment with that person? What kind of connection do you want to have? And which kind of communication is most conducive to that? So my friend thought that I had totally upset this other person that we were meeting with. But it turned out that my friend was more upset than the other person because I wrote to the other person apologizing you didn't want to know about. And, oh, she said, no, it's good to know about all these politics, you know, because then you are kind of adverted about pitfalls, you know.

[07:02]

So she was stressing the side, maybe she was being polite with me, I don't know. She was stressing the side of mindfulness, as opposed to, depending on how we define right speech, But there's a question of... I get tired, you know, talking about all the drama. You know, at some point it gets tiring. It's like, whatever. You know, you still have to go on living your life, moment to moment, and practicing and dealing with what's right in front of you. But I think we're doing... I mean, we've had our dramas here too, but I think we're doing pretty decently in terms of this balance between mindfulness and right speech and being aware of some of the pitfalls

[08:12]

but not falling into them. So, and I would say that's how we work together, how we relate to each other, how we, you know, sometimes we lead and sometimes we follow. You don't always have to follow and you don't always have to lead. There's a liberation that comes from being in both sides of that relationship. It's just like doing the Makugyo. You're kind of following, listening to other people, just like how we chant. We start chanting and we have to hear where the pitch is. And sometimes your pitch is over here and then you stop listening for a second and then you realize everybody else is chanting in a different pitch. and you're kind of sticking out, you know, like a sore thumb. And so you have to kind of adjust your pitch.

[09:15]

Or sometimes people like to say, well, no, I'm going to lead the pitch. So even though it's, you know, sometimes a problem, but sometimes if we start really low and everybody's chanting really low, it's nice that one person decides, well, I'm going to take the lead on this one and sort of raises the pitch. But that person can't always be doing that. Right? Because then it becomes a kind of preference for leading over following. And then there's the question of lay and priest. a little bit, Sojourn was talking yesterday about, you know, his understanding of the relationship between laypeople and priests.

[10:24]

And, you know, he's always going back and forth between these two sides, right? Sometimes falling more on one side than going to the other. And I think he's kind of on his own, pretty much, on that one. I'm not sure that whatever he said yesterday would be consistent with the official stance of Soto Shu in Japan. Most likely not. But his voice is an important voice. in our school. So he was talking about, you know, he was upset, I mean he said this in front of everybody so I can say, I can refer to it, about people starting a lay Zen teachers association.

[11:28]

alternative organization. And then Simone, you know, which is part of that, she said, well, it's really about, not about that, it's really about supporting each other. But, you know, there is a tendency of also starting up organizations, you know. There's so many of them. You know, there's Organization for Priests, and then the Priests were Organization for Priests who part of Soda Shoe, and those who were not part of Soda Shoe were the Organization of American Sin Priests. Then the American Sin Teachers Association, and then, you know, it reminds me of APA, American Psychological, American Psychiatric, American Psychoanalytic, you know, and it kind of goes on and on and on, and and it creates all these bureaucracies, you know? And then you get inundated with all, I'm complaining now, sorry.

[12:44]

You get inundated with all these emails and, you know, people want to vote about this and vote about that, and should we, when should we expel somebody, or when should we accept somebody in a club, you know, and who's the president, and who's this and that, you know, it's like, and then they create life, you know, Anyway, it's a whole... So as you see, I'm not that interested in that. But, you know, it has its place too, but I don't know why people always have to be starting new organizations and then get entangled. But anyway, be that as it may, But I do want to follow up with what Sojin said about lay teachers and priests and for there to be harmony, sort of equality, there's a difference between equality and identity.

[13:56]

So things can be, and I'm careful with this, you know, lay people and priests can have And then people would say, well, why is it really equal if people can ordain, you know? But I think for the most part, we're getting along well. Yeah, we have great examples. I mean, and I'm sort of in an ambiguous position, you know. I guess Norman's we have these lay priests, or I'm kind of a lay priest, which kind of creates an ambiguity between lay person and priest. And some people like the difference is really marked, you know? So I remember one of the Zen teachers, who's a lay Zen teacher, told me once, well, if you want to be a priest, you should wear your robes all the time.

[15:03]

Otherwise, you shouldn't wear them at all. He said, OK. So, you know, there's a whole range of opinions about these things. But, you know, and Sojin is only a priest, but he's also a layperson, when you see him out in the street. And, you know, and we have lay people here in Asanga who follow the schedule like a priest and can actually tell the priest, you need to do the schedule, you need to notice this or that. So the important is to remain friends, you know, to maintain the feeling of friendship with one another.

[16:11]

And we've been practicing together for so long. And I think we're succeeding on that, I think. That would be my opinion in case. That's how I feel about my brothers and sisters, you know, in the sangha. although there's always some tension, you know, somebody says something, you know, and so on and so forth, but then you kind of, or somebody may say something or do something that annoys you, you know, but the part of the practice is to notice that, and I'm going to talk more about that because the case kind of addresses that, and then let it go. so that each moment can be new and each person can be met again in a new way rather than remaining with what happened before getting stuck in perceiving that person through what happened before so that's perception anyway, so let me read this case

[17:28]

So this case number 16 is titled Kanadeva, who was a student of Nagarjuna. And so it says, Kanadeva visited the great master Nagarjuna. Knowing he was a man of wisdom, Nagarjuna sent an attendant out to place a bowl full of water in front of Kanadeva, just as the latter was about to reach the gate. Gesture. Nagarjuna then watched to see what Kanadeva would do. Kanadeva placed a needle on the surface of the water and brought it with him to meet Nagarjuna. Happily, they had a meeting of minds. Kanadeva was from southern India. He used to perform rituals for good fortune. propitiary rights for blessings.

[18:45]

He also enjoyed philosophy, rhetoric, and debate. In the course of his teaching travels, after having attained Buddhist enlightenment, Nagarjuna came to southern India. Many people there believe in performing rites for blessings. Hearing Nagarjuna explain the subtle truth for them, they said to one another, quote, for people to have done things to merit blessings is what is most important in the world. He talks nonsense about enlightened nature. But who can see this nature? Nagarjuna said, quote, do you want to see the enlightened nature? First, you must get rid of your conceit. They said, is the enlightened nature large or small? Nagarjuna said, the enlightened nature is not large or small and wide or narrow. It has no blessing, no retribution. It is undying and unborn. Seeing how superior his doctrine was, they all changed their minds. A man of great knowledge among them, Kanadeva, visited Nagarjuna and they ultimately attained accord.

[19:53]

Then, I think in this book, it's not clear where the text should begin. So it's hard. I think that's just the story. And that's probably a story from India. But then Kesan does his commentary. And of course, the text doesn't distinguish between the two. So you could think, if you read it naively, that this is the story that comes from India. But actually, just that little piece is. The rest is Kesan's commentary. A man of great knowledge among them, Kanadeva, visited Nagarjuna and they ultimately attained accord. Then Nagarjuna shared the teaching seat with him just as Gautama Buddha had done with Kshapa on spiritual mountain. Nagarjuna then expounded the teaching for them by manifesting the form of the full moon. Master Kanadeva said to the crowd, this is the teacher manifesting the essential form of the enlightened nature to show us. How do we know? Because signless, formless absorption is like the full moon, the meaning of the Buddha nature is wide open clarity.

[21:03]

When Kanadeva had finished speaking, this fear disappeared. Reappearing, Nagarjuna spoke the following verse. Body manifests the full moon symbol to represent the body of all Buddhas. The teaching has no such shape, thereby we discern it We discern it is not sound or form. Thus, teacher and apprentice were indistinguishable, and the lifeline flowed through. The foregoing event is not ordinary. Kanadeva united with the way at the very first. Nagarjuna did not have a word of explanation, and Kanadeva did not have a word of inquiry. So it's just a statement. So one says a statement about the other. And there's no question, and there's no explanation. Therefore, the existence of teacher and apprentice could hardly be maintained. How could guest and host be distinguished?

[22:05]

Thereafter, Kanadeva especially upheld and expounded the religious way, and eventually was known throughout India as the Deva school. That's interesting. Deva I think means God, so I'm not sure about that one. It was, as it is said, like piling snow in a silver bowl, hiding a harem in the moonlight. We know that statement from the Jewel Mirror Samadhi. Because it was like this, when they first saw each other, a bowl full of water was immediately placed before the seat. Could inside and outside exist? Since it was a full bowl, there was no lack. This is also still water, absolutely clear, pure throughout. Expansive, filling, it is aware and radiant. Therefore, Kanadeva put a needle on the water and met with understanding. It is necessary to reach the very bottom and the very top. There is no absolute or relative.

[23:08]

Reaching this point, teacher and apprentice can hardly be distinguished. When you array them, are no traces. When you array them, they are not the same. When you mix them together, there are no This matter is manifested by the raising of eyebrows and blinking of eyes. This matter is shown by seeing color and hearing sound. Therefore, there's nothing to name sound and color. No seeing or hearing to abandon. Round and bright, without form, it is like the transparency of clear water. It is like penetrating through the spiritual luminon and seeking the spiritual sword. The point appears everywhere, clear and bright. It pervades the mind. Water, too, pierces mind.

[24:09]

skies. And a needle penetrates a bag and pierces a seat. If water is after all not destroyed by anything, how could there be any tracks made in it? And a needle, to other things, is harder than a diamond. Are this needle and water anything else but your body and mind? When swallowing up, it is just a needle. When spitting out, it is clear water. Therefore, the path of teacher and apprentice arrive together, fulfilled together, there being no self or other at all. Therefore, when the lifeline goes right through and there is open clarity, it cannot be hidden in the ten directions. It is like squash vines entwining squashes. They cling and entwine. It is just that there is only one's own mind. Furthermore, if you have gotten to know the pure water, you should feel it carefully. clearly realize there's a needle in it. If you drink it by mistake, it will cut your throat.

[25:13]

Yet even though it be so, do not entertain a dualistic understanding. Just swallow up, spit out, and think carefully and thoroughly. Even if you feel clear and pure, empty and fluid, right then there must be a pervading firmness. The disasters of water, fire, and wind cannot impinge upon it. Nor will the eons of becoming, subsistence, decay, and emptiness affect it. I have another humble saying to explain the story. One needle fishes all the waters of the ocean. Wherever it goes, the ferocious dragon can hardly conceal its body." So there's a lot of images and poetry in it. So Nagarjuna developed the Heart Sutra, which we're going to study in the next practice period, out of the Prajnaparamita Sutra, which was a Bahayana Sutra that was already

[26:36]

existence. Both Nagarjuna and Vasubandhu are the two kind of main teachers that developed the teaching of the Mahayana. And Nagarjuna developed the teaching of emptiness and the Heart Sutra, and the teaching of non-duality. But out of Mahayana sutras that were supposed to have been there already since the time of the Buddha, and it's a mystery, you know, how they appeared, who wrote them, or where they came from exactly. We know they're from India. So the needle in water is like Vipassana meditation and Samadhi meditation, or Prajna and Samadhi. even though they become different schools of Buddhism and so mindfulness is more being aware of your different states of mind and the different thoughts and feelings and sensations that are arising moment to moment

[28:02]

Being aware as opposed to trying to repress them in absorption. That's what the Vipassana people tell us. Although samadhi practice also includes everything. It's spaciousness and this water of samadhi practice includes needles and all kinds of things in it as well. So the distinction is kind of artificial, but it is two different ways that the Buddha spoke about Buddhist meditation. The needle is also what we use to sew. We used to sew a robe, or a surgeon uses it reconnect the tissue. So it's something, a needle is something that connects, or it represents an understanding of how things are connected, of interdependence, of how things are made or put together.

[29:21]

And whereas Samadhi is more the experience of serenity or sitting still, or just sitting, or tranquility, but it needs a needle in it to balance it out. Otherwise, you know, it's just relaxation. And we fall asleep. And, you know, we often fall asleep in Samadhi. And there's no... There's no... I mean, our practice is to stay awake. But it's not a sign of bad meditation, or bad practice, necessarily. Sojin is always... falling asleep often on Monday mornings, you know, during people's talks.

[30:35]

It's just that that's... Samadhi is a little bit like sleep. You know, like grabbing your pillow in the middle of the night. There's no discrimination. So... It's just darkness. Even though we refer to it as light. But the needle is what either wakes us up or puts us to sleep. Talking in a way is like a lullaby, you know. So there's something about the voice that is inductive. Just like hypnosis, you know, glass, I feel like you're floating in the ocean. And as I count from 10 to 9 to 8, I do it.

[31:46]

Okay, I'm putting you to sleep now. So, uh... You know, the text speaks in a way that's a little coarse, you know, like, we don't say, oh, just get rid of your conceit, or just get rid of your ego. We usually don't talk like that anymore. Because people often object, why are you trying to get rid of anything? Isn't that just repressing? You may think you get rid of your ego, but then it comes right back. So that's more the side of mindfulness, of just being able to recognize what arises, and not pretend that there's nothing there, because there may be something there.

[33:03]

and we have to be mindful of it otherwise if we think we're getting rid of our ego and the ego is just appearing somewhere else then we're just fooling ourselves and this teaching of the moon of course I mean it's Nagarjuna on the full moon I mean, the moon is a very important symbol in Zen. So this reference to the moon is a story from the Surangama Sutra, where the Buddha is giving a teaching to Ananda about the nature of the moon. and he talks about three different moons so there's a reference here to it and then you know there's also a common reference that we know in uh in uh in zen uh about the um the story of uh uh was it Yunnan and Daowu uh where Yunnan was um

[34:31]

was basically sleeping, and Dawu Constance says, you're too busy, you know, you're working too hard, or something like that. Why are you making such a big effort to sleep? And so Yunnan says, well, it looks like I'm busy, but don't you know about the one that's not busy? So then Yuna embraces the broom and says, is this the first moon or the second moon? Because the activity and the stillness refers to these two moons. And the stillness refers to Samadhi practice.

[35:32]

And Samadhi is often described as this brilliant radiant light of the moon. No, Dawu actually says, Yunyun says, you should know one that is not busy. And Dawu says, if so, there's a second moon. If there is one that's not busy, then there's a second moon. Because then you're talking about one that's busy and one that's not busy. So this is the teaching of the three moons from the Surangama Sutra. And so Nagarjuna is saying that the teaching is not perception.

[36:35]

To represent the body of all Buddhas, the teaching is no shape. usually what we think is perception is not the things as they really are and so perception instead is created by the cause and conditions in our own mind and these are the cognitive and emotional afflictions sort of the equivalent of the unconscious in western psychology because we're not aware of these cause and conditions that create these afflictions when we interact with people and so then we're not really seeing them as the way they really are so the way they really are would be the first moon the second moon is perception

[37:45]

And perception has to be cleansed. So that's the practice. The practice is to cleanse perception. And we have to then be aware that perception really comes from our own mind, from the alaya Vishnayana, which then refers to the teaching of Vasubandhu. So there are cause and conditions created in our history. that produce certain emotional and cognitive thoughts and feelings when interacting with people and circumstances, that lead us to perceive things that are not really there. So this the Buddha calls false seeing. and this full seeing has to be returned to the essence of seeing the essence of seeing are the causing conditions that are causing us to feel the way we feel and then we think that we feel the way we feel because of the actual moon the actual other person who's there doing whatever it is they're doing in relationship to you

[39:08]

But in fact we are not perceiving the other person, we are perceiving our own consciousness. So we are perceiving reflections. So in perception we are just seeing reflections, the mirror reflected in the water. So the practice helps us return this perception to being mindful of the causes and conditions in our mind. that lead us to perceive the world in a certain way so that then we can really see it for the way it is so this is... it's interesting because the moon is usually used as a symbol for Samadhi, for absorption and people in Vipassana say, well you're just going into this trance and you're doing a spiritual bypass you're just focusing on enlightenment and everything is glorious and radiant and it's all about purity and virtue and enlightenment and all this and then you're not really paying attention to the problems

[40:34]

So then you get disappointed when years down the road you see somebody who's been practicing for 30, 40 or 50 years and they, you know, they still have some form of attachment or some form of grief or some form of anxiety. Wasn't all that supposed to be destroyed? Well, it isn't. So, that's the other side of the moon, right? Because the moon is full, but then the moon also waxes and wanes. And there's a side of the moon that we never see. Just like we don't see the back of our heads. So, even realistically, even though the idealistic idea is all people meditate day and night they stay up at night and they never sleep and if they do that you know for eons then eventually they'll you know never experience anxiety or grief in the face of death or separation but that's impossible so most people if they uh separate or they leave

[41:57]

They will experience... They separate from their loved ones, from their family. We think about people leaving their families in renunciation. Think of the Buddha walking out of the palace and leaving his wife and child behind. He had no feelings? No grief? No anxiety? What am I doing? Is this the right thing to do? Realistically, probably, he had some feelings. And then in the full moon, statistically, there are a lot more hospitalizations and people get a lot crazier during the full moon. You know, so we have this full moon of enlightenment and then we have the full moon of delusion. and there isn't a duality between the two so then we have to practice both with enlightenment and with delusion

[43:22]

We have to practice with feelings of bliss and radiance, but also with feelings of anxiety and grief. And not use one to block the other. Because sometimes people get really stuck in anxiety or in grief. and light and can't see the other side so that's part of impermanence you know it's always it's always changing it's a moving target and so we have to be able to move with it so but when we have painful feelings we have to realize that these are our perceptions and don't blame other people for them because it's really easy to get stuck on you did this to me or you're making me feel this way

[44:55]

You know especially when you know among in relationships very easy to fall into that Especially their misunderstandings or separations Both parties start blaming each other For their feelings, but in fact each person is bringing their feelings to the interaction And each person needs to take responsibility for their own feelings, which are theirs. And this is kind of standard therapy, right? I mean, when you say this and this, I feel angry. Not you made me feel angry. So, it's my anger. Or it's my grief. only if you were nicer to me maybe I wouldn't feel so much grief so then the person feels obliged to have to be nicer to you and then it's not worth anything because the person is feeling obliged they're not feeling that spontaneously out of their own heart which is what you really want to feel but you don't get that by placing a demand so the only way to get that is to

[46:23]

for the person to take responsibility for their own feelings and let the other person be the way they are rather than who you want them to be so that's like the... you want them to be in a particular way that's like the... that's perception or like the second moon And that's based on your own cause and conditions. But the person is not your reflection. The other person is not your echo. You know, this would be horrible if all you would get back from the other person is your own echo. So you're just relating to yourself. So then it would be all perception. There would be no real there would be nothing that you could relate to outside yourself.

[47:34]

Although that's also true. Everything is, I mean, from the point of view of big mind, everything is included within ourself. But from the point of view of small mind, we have to be able to get out of ourselves and see things from the other person's perspective or recognize our perspective but be able to take responsibility for it and let the other person be whichever way they are even if you don't like it or it doesn't really meet your needs and if it doesn't really meet your needs then you have to deal with your your demands and your needs which are they all based on perception and this false seeing. So that's what I've been trying to practice both inside the gate

[48:56]

and outside the game and although Sazen is very helpful you know to as a very nice container for a whole host of variety of feelings And Zazen can also be very soothing. If you're feeling anxious or grief-stricken, Zazen can be quite soothing. In fact, Sojin has a Buddhadharma magazine there saying, medication or meditation? and research shows now that both are better just like therapy and medications are better than just one or the other alone so people are using meditation now for many purposes not surprising although, you know, it's not always helpful

[50:16]

and open it up. I think, can we have a few minutes for discussion? If people have any questions or comments. Alan. The image that strikes me, just that whole presentation needle on the surface tension or dropping the needle into it that goes all the way to the bottom, which to use worse, perhaps with some fun, it points both ways to me.

[51:33]

But it's a very vivid image. I'm wondering what you'd say. I was going to ask you the same question. I wonder what you think. But he says something about you have to be both at the surface and at the bottom. It is necessary to reach the very bottom and the very top. There is no absolute or relative. That's Keza. Yeah. So it's sort of like when people say, well, the unconscious is outside. is not inside or there's nothing hidden you know the things at the very depth are manifesting on the surface so whatever needle is pinching you is both at the bottom and on the surface it has a root in your history and

[52:37]

your mind and it's also manifesting in this situation right now. So it's both at the bottom and the surface. Now the floating piece, maybe that opens another aspect of it. Did you have any thoughts about that? You know, just, I'd have to read that text in several on the water, and that seems to be, you know, that's something that you would not be surprised at from somebody who was a master ritualist. You know, sort of, okay, here, you're bringing me this bowl of enlightenment.

[53:41]

to bring it forth. But I don't know. I really have to study and think about it. It feels to me like there are these, as you've been talking about, there's a variety of psychological realms that are being pointed at. Well, it has to be very light. A needle is very light. You can float a needle on water. Yeah. So, wisdom should not be something that burdens you. So, it should be treated lightly and not take ourselves too seriously. Yes, speaking of that, I'm very grateful for this talk because I could touch this very big sadness and heartache that I feel over multiple conflicts within my family, along with health issues for some family members, distance, I mean physical distance, as well as

[55:14]

And it's very complex. And some of them are not in contact with each other because of conflict. So there's like every kinds of wrong speech, so to speak, going on and more and more. And how to be intimate with that and touch that sadness and pain over and over again as these floating storylines come and go. So is it my perception, or their perception, or whatever. And it's so continually changing. Everybody's got a different take. That it literally hurts to be talking. Or even with. And keep coming back to, OK, then just breathe. What's an appropriate response right now? How do I, first of all, just take care of myself in this situation?

[56:15]

And I notice how exhausting it has been and prolonged. Frankly, it's been going on my whole life, so that's it. But what's wondrous about this practice and something about your talk is that I can feel the lightness. So I don't know, for me right now, it's that needle. Sometimes it pierces and penetrates. Right now I feel like maybe my practice is a floating needle. And so I'm wondering, sort of in the nitty gritty of that, if you have a suggestion for sort of how In some pragmatic way, how to practice with that, so to speak, floating heel? Well, I mean, the heart sutra is the empty heart.

[57:20]

So, not to hold anything in it, but you feel your feelings. That's what you feel. And then you may have various thoughts about what's going on, what's going on with you, what's going on with them, and so on and so forth. But in the moment, it's not very helpful. Especially if the thoughts become kind of reiterative and compulsive. You know, when you're always thinking and there's some anger in it, and so on and so forth. then those are not going to be very helpful. So in Zazen, we try to... I mean, you have to recognize and be mindful of your thoughts and then kind of let them go. And just stay with the feeling and the breathing and then let Zazen do its work, you know, because the light of the practice will transform those feelings.

[58:30]

into something else. Yes, Gary? The idea of perception, and the way you presented perception in your talk. By the way, thank you for your talk. It's great. But the perception part of it, where you're using your history and your past and what you're seeing, is one of the key things as humans we have, right? Because we have this innate ability to find patterns everywhere, right? So it's actually a good thing, too. And I don't know why I brought that up, but I know you're talking more on an emotional level, But, you know, like mathematicians use patterns all the time.

[59:37]

That's how we like it. And also we use it in dangerous situations, like somebody comes with a gun. Well, that pattern automatically is recognized. Right? So there is something. Right. But then you have to, if there's somebody there with a gun, then you have to decide how you're going to respond. can respond in various ways and depending on how you respond the outcome may be different and that's a history type thing that's a that's something ingrained what you're saying uh-huh how are you gonna respond I mean that's the karmic element of it but I mean there is the pattern of human beings tend to have two eyes and have a capacity to see Those are all patterns of forms of nature, which are different, which is also part of seeing things as they are.

[60:46]

Like, for instance, nose, eyes horizontal, nose vertical. So there is the real moon in the sky, which is round. but we tend to see things as reflections and then the perception is the way we perceive things so there is I mean there's also true perception or just seeing so it's a mixed thing but we're trying to transform one into the other So to clear how we see things, to be clear-eyed.

[61:50]

Yes? So until we attain a higher level of realization, our interactions with people may be filled with a lot of difficulty, depending on how can interact with us. I do social work, and I work at an organization where there's a manager that was clearly a bully, and was bullying people. And I was actually responsible for giving a presentation in front of 30 people about the topic of bullying. And it's a huge topic, and there's a lot of heated emotions. And that was my responsibility. And the irony is that I was in the process of being bullied by my manager. And he asked me, would you give this presentation? So that was an interesting process. acting towards you and how you're responding to that. And of course, in my practice, a lot of that is, OK, well, this is about me, this is about me. But not being so fully realized, how you would interact with me would really affect my ability to concentrate, to focus, how I feel, my motivation, to be at the job, to do my job, all of that.

[63:03]

And so I think that there's the risk of getting too passive to think, oh, this is just me. Let's not change the outside world. Whereas I think sometimes your environment and people in your environment do need to be changed and talked to and adjusted. And even if it's to what you were saying, even if it's not coming from their best place, they might feel like, well, I have a problem, you have a problem. But I think to be so black and white, well, it's just you. You just need to deal with yourself and not worry about the people around you. I think in some circumstances, especially when there's a power differential, it's really complicated. Yeah. Well, obviously your boss is a bully because of his own... the causes that are leading him to be a bully and the pain that he has with being a bully and what he has to deal with with that.

[64:10]

And the question is how do you get him to stop being a bully? and it's very difficult to change other people if they don't see it as a problem, right? So he could be fired, I mean, you could, you know, report him to the higher-ups and, you know, create a case, you know, for him to, you know, he's a bully and he won't recognize it and he won't correct it and so on and so forth, you know, which in itself will create a whole series of feelings and consequences for you. And this person may attack in response, may sue you, may do all kinds of stuff. So there is a way to act, but there's also a lot of difficulty along that path. And I think that's something that everybody has to decide for themselves.

[65:14]

Every situation is different. so I wouldn't say that you're right I mean it's possible to fall it's not just it's just about you in the small sense of you but that ultimately you can only change yourself because the other person you can't change them unless they want to change and if they don't want to change they're not going to change they may look like they're changing but they're not So what you have more freedom to do is to adjust your own response to it so that it doesn't burden you. Now, in some situations, if you're physically attacked or something, then you need to do something about it, of course. But short of that, it may be that that's my proclivity.

[66:17]

you know, I mean if I, in certain situations I felt bullied here I didn't say anything about it because I knew if I went to confront this person they would say it's my problem and start, you know, accusing me of something and then that person would be upset and I would be upset and then there would be no resolution and then it has to go to the ethics and resolution committee and then you have to go in front of a whole board of people and then everybody has to listen to both sides of the problem and usually it's inconclusive and at this point you've wasted all this time and energy on something that you could have just uh, let go. Okay, so it pinched a little bit. I mean, you know, uh, somebody push you around and say, oh no, you go do this, or you go do that, or you sit here, or you sit over there, or whatever.

[67:27]

You know? Okay. So a surgeon says, you know, if to be a teacher, or to be a Zen student, you have to put up with a little bit of this. Just, that comes to the territory. You just put up with it. Rather than, you know, and just say well this person's karma will catch up with them at some point and just leave it at that because sometimes trying to do something in the way you're saying creates even more problems so but left point for themselves. I think we're way over time. At this point. I'm just going to ask something. OK, Jake.

[68:27]

You're the timekeeper, so. Well, I will say, sometimes people have been verbally abused here, or think that they've been verbally abused. some of those people have chosen not to take it to here or to Sojin. Instead they leave. And that is a loss for the community when that happens. Yeah, that's true. I mean, there are some people who who have left because they were upset, and I don't know how much of a tempt it was to air the thing and to talk about it, to find somebody to talk about it, so yeah, it's good also to, particularly if you're going to get to a point where you're going to leave, that the only solution is

[69:31]

you know, you're either, if you stay, you keep feeling all these bad feelings, and so it's either between staying and feeling all these bad feelings, or leaving, and the person is going to choose to leave. So then at that point, yes, you're right, then there may be something that needs to be brought up to a larger group. But if you do that, then you're also exposing yourself to have to own whatever is yours in the problem. So that's also not easy. Sometimes people choose to leave also for that reason. Kika? Oh, you know, I'm just on the subject. You know, Sojin has said, you know, it's not an encouraging practice. And so we all have had this challenge. We've all faced this challenge where you're going to tell me what to do.

[70:32]

That's our ego getting the pinch. And if it's too tough for people, then maybe they'll come back. But I think that having a firm line that we don't cross to accommodate that is helpful to people. It's been helpful to me because I confronted my resistance or wanting to go to the HEAR committee. And it's part of practice. I think it's all part of practice. And I think even when they go, that's part of practice. And I'm sorry they're gone, but how much do we accommodate here? Do accommodate in what way? What do you mean? Is the wish that we usher them back in, put our arms around them, that's not practice, is it? It's not an embracing practice. It's a different subject, but I just wanted to voice that. Aha. Well, I mean, but to have a place where the person can, somebody can hear what their problem is or their complaint is or what feelings they're having, and I mean that, I think that's part of the practice.

[71:45]

Right, but seeing it as a reflection as well of your own self, I mean, there's a thin line. Yes, and it's hard to say that, you know, when somebody's really upset and thinking that they're being hurt in some way, it's really hard to say, well yeah, but you need to also see how that's a reflection of something in you. That's very hard to say. I want to say something about all this, and also go back to the thing about bullying, just because it's something I'm going through in this sangha right now, is even when I can say, okay, I understand myself and the other individual, where I felt a lot of pain, and I understand they're always shifting causes and conditions, and I kind of say I'm going to try and accept that, I kind of believe, as a clinician, and it's my own experience, is that Some of us, at least, have a visceral, non-conscious trauma place that gets bodily stimulated. And even if I can say, that person's just being how they are, if it's a pinch, as you say, I totally get owning your stuff, not escalating something and accepting who the other person is if it's a pinch or even just a sting.

[72:58]

But I believe in the reality of trauma, and even if I can own, this is my crap and my entanglements, that I have a big response to something not that big, and anyway, that they are the way they are, there becomes a place of, is it actually healthy for me to come to a place, as Kika's describing it, and I'm really not sure, that is not embracing, that's saying, get over it. Because not everything is a pinch. And I think that's what I'm saying. Not everything is a pinch. So get over it in what sense? In the sense that, at a certain point, if I'm having more than a pinch emotional response, it's mine, it's my stuff. But it's actually stimulating something kind of heavy duty. And I have to accept how everything is. It keeps happening. So I keep doing this work to let it go, work it through, own it, and then it happens again. Because there's certain dynamics that are patterned. And I don't really want to blame anybody, But at a certain point, I think, as an individual, I have to question, is this healthy? As if someone's in a chronic bullying situation with a power differential at work, one has to think, do I leave this job?

[74:05]

Do I confront? Do I try some other intervention with this boss? Because a pinch we can just absorb. But I just want to say, from at least my point of view, not everything is a punch. The punch. The punch. And at a certain number of punches, maybe that's people leave, even if it's our own junk that we bring, that we know we're having stimulated just by reality is going to stimulate them. Yeah. Well, I mean, if I guess, and I guess you've already tried to talk to the people that you feel are abusing a position. Well, that's a strong language. I wouldn't say that. They're just being themselves. I mean, I wouldn't even, I would just say being themselves, but it twangs and hits my stuff. That's my responsibility. It does. So then, if they're just being themselves, then there's nothing that can be changed on that side? I think not.

[75:07]

You think? I think not. After a conversation and my observation, I think it's... The person and I, they're not going to change? Yeah. So then you feel like they move in well? Then I say, OK, that's gone. And then another encounter re-stimulates me two weeks later. And I see the aftermath of that. And I work it through. And I say, this is all right. This is practice. I'm not here to be embraced. And it happens again, and it happens again. And I'm starting to feel the word punch. It's my eternal experience. No one's punching me. It starts to feel like that. And it's like, huh, should I be here? I have to take responsibility and make decisions. So you're feeling like your only option left is to leave, because you've already tried to talk to whoever it is and tell them to do something different. Do they know that that's the consequence? Maybe. I mean, I'm not saying that I'm absolutely there.

[76:08]

I'm saying I'm in a zone where that's feeling kind of real. So I haven't made that, it keeps moving and I'm going to have more conversation, but I'm just wanting to put into our dialogue here when we're dealing with owning our perceptions, that we can say things pinch, but I think there are some things that hit something, like the way you were talking about your family, there's a whole, however many years, complex of entanglements, and sometimes in that there are things that It can be your own perception, but it's just a little harder to deal with. And I don't think that this practice has loads of explicit space for that, aside from holding in a zazen, which is a great thing to do. OK. Well, I mean, how we treat each other is very important. and sometimes, you know, people abuse their authority or they have a certain kind of position and they speak in a certain kind of way to other people that hurts their feelings, you know, and not everybody has the sensitivity to notice that or to realize that.

[77:25]

And the problem is that if you communicate that, you know, the way It seems to me that the way you talk to me is this way or that way. Is there any way you could speak somewhat differently to me? Because it really makes me feel really upset. And I would imagine that the person who's practicing would be motivated to want to do that. But often sometimes people don't care. And I guess that's your experience, that people don't care. even after you've said, you know... Well, person, not people. Person. It's a person. Okay. I think, I would think that this person would see it that it's just my perception, and I need to get over it. But I have, there have been a number of conversations of that ilk. Are they in the room? No, not right now. Yeah, no, no, no. There have been a number of conversations, the person knows. It's not in that, I wouldn't talk about it like this.

[78:30]

Well, you know, I mean, I would hate for you to leave. I just want to say that. And so if there's anything that I can do to talk to somebody, I'll be happy to do that. We may not be an explicitly embracing practice, but I hope that we're a supportive Compassion and supportiveness is at the very root of our sangha practice. And the idea that somebody is who they are and won't respond to interactions in a way doesn't express our interconnectedness. People aren't just who they are apart from interactions. I don't know the answer, but I would hope that there's a way for us or others to help.

[79:47]

I want this community to feel like a supportive, compassionate place, and I hope that that can happen somehow. Just one quick thing. Can the person who is delivering this mess be seen as acting compassionately and not oblivious to his or her feelings? Can it be seen as a compassionate act to give it back to you and allow you to look at it and let it go and look at it and let it go? Can that be seen as a compassionate act? I think for eight or nine years, I did think of it that way. But when something, and this is why I'm using the word trauma, I think there's a thing, maybe not everybody has it, where something ancient and visceral is stimulated that you live with and you change your relationship to and you hold responsibility for. But if that's what is getting stimulated in me, and I'm saying to the person that's, I'm sure the motivation is innate, is what's getting stimulated in me.

[80:54]

If I have an understanding of that that isn't the same, as this community or other people, then it doesn't fit very well. You see what I'm saying? I mean, that's the one. Yeah. OK. And I want to apologize for letting this go on for so long. No, it's OK. Just as long as we can have service there. It's five minutes? It's five minutes. Just stretch the length.

[81:15]

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