Well, I have two subjects. Oh, you can't. But mine is on. How's that? How's this? How's everything? Howdy doody. Anyway, I have two subjects, and they're both serious. When I start to, sometimes when I come to Sachine, I don't even know what I'm going to talk about because there's so many things to talk about. It's like our society, there's so many opportunities that we get caught up in all of them and then can't do any of them well. And my mind is like a popcorn popper.

[01:07]

And all these little seeds start popping and popping and popping. And so it becomes an enormous amount of stuff to talk about. But I've narrowed it down to two. And one of them is, think not thinking? What is the thought that goes on in samsara? And the other is the subject we were talking about before yesterday, forgiveness. So those are two subjects, and I want to talk about both of them. So I thought that today I would talk about not thinking, so that we'd have more time to think about it. Dogen's fascicle, Zazen Shin, he talks about, think not thinking, talks about what is the thought in Zazen.

[02:28]

And think not thinking, he says, is the art, but really the koan of Zazen. The most important thing in zazen is zazen-shin. I mean, it's hi-shie-ryo. Hi-shie-ryo means think, not thinking. So there's a little dialogue between yakusan, igen, taihosho, and a monk. And many of you have read this. It appears in various... it actually appears in Wakanda Zengi, I believe. Yeah, this is the art of Zazen. But he doesn't explain it. But actually, he does explain it, but you don't know that he's explaining it.

[03:38]

So, there are two nice little commentaries. One is by Maezumi Roshi, and the other is by Deshi Maru. Maezumi Roshi, of course, was the abbot of the Los Angeles Zen Center, and Deshi Maru brought Zen to Paris. to Europe, and I'm beginning to appreciate Deshi Maru more and more. I wish he was still alive. I appreciate a lot about his teaching, which I'm studying more. And he has a very nice commentary on thinking. Let's start out with my Zubirashi, which is a little more explanatory. So here's the story of this part of the koan.

[05:03]

After sitting, a monk asked great teacher, Yaksan, what are you thinking of in the immobile state of sitting? The master replied, I'm thinking of not thinking. The monk asked, how can one think of not thinking? And the master replied, by non-thinking. So here we have thinking, not thinking, and non-thinking. Myzumi Roshi is reading from Heejin Kim's commentary. Heejin Kim is quite a wonderful Dogon scholar, and he was around more in the 90s, 80s, And he made great commentaries and translations of Dogen. So Dogen says, this having been, this is, and Karl Bielfeld did a annotated translation of Zazen-shin, which, and my Zumi Roshi just read that back in the 80s, 90s, and made a comment, and is talking about that translation.

[06:29]

He says, this having been confirmed as the great teacher's saying, we should study immobile sitting and transmit it correctly. Herein lies a thorough investigation of immobile sitting handed down in the Buddha way. Although thoughts on the immobile state of sitting are not limited to a single person, Yakusan's saying is the very best. Namely, thinking is not thinking. Sometimes thinking is the skin, flesh, bones, and marrow of Zazen. Sometimes not thinking is the skin, flesh, bones, and marrow of Zazen. The monk said, not thinking is the how's thinking. Not thinking, though indeed time-honored, is newly restated as the how's thinking. How can this fail to be known?

[07:35]

Unless one is a short-sighted fool, which is Dogen's language, one should have the capacity to inquire about and reflect on the immobile state of sitting. The great teacher, Yakusan, said, by non-thinking. Here we have thinking, not thinking, and now non-thinking. Although it is quite evident that we employ this non-thinking in zazen, We always use non-thinking in order to think of not thinking. Don't think about it. In non-thinking, there is the who, and this who upholds the self, who thinks of not thinking. Even though it is the self, itself has to do not only with thinking, in addition, it takes up the immobile state of sitting itself.

[08:43]

If this immobile state of sitting is nothing but the immobile state of sitting, how can it think of itself as its object? For this reason, the immobile state of sitting is neither the Buddha measure nor the Dharma measure, neither the measure of enlightenment nor the measure of understanding, etc., etc., etc. Dogen uses this kind of interrogative, not as a question, but as a statement. And this is how you stop sweating when you hear this. What? The master replied, I think of not thinking. And the monk asked, how can How can one think of not thinking? So we think of that as a question. But Dogen does not take it as a question. How can I think of not thinking?

[09:49]

It's a statement. It's how is the how's thinking. how, who, what, he uses these interrogatives as the subject rather than a question. And that's how we can understand or understand Dogen's understanding of non-duality. So he says, this morning I found Dr. Kim's translation of Zazen Shin. or admonitions for zazen, as you know. Zazen shin means acupuncture needle, actually, of zazen. Acupuncture needle means the flying point.

[10:56]

So this, as you know, to translate well, it's a difficult matter. And it is. This koan was written in Chinese. And when we read in Chinese, the invocation is, in a way, clear. But Dogen Zenji further interprets it in his own way, using various semantic changes. And this makes translating it even more complicated and harder to understand. So the shin of Zazen shin refers to the acupuncture needle. So Zazen shin is the most important acupuncture point of Zazen. And in this fascicle, Dogen Zenji uses Yakusan's koan. and gives it one of the best explanations of the content of Zazen. In his Fukan Zazengi, or Universal Recommendations for Zazen, he said that this koan is Zazen. It is a difficult koan, and I'm still not sure what is the best way to share it with you, but I'm going to try.

[12:00]

So, what are you thinking of in the immobile state of sitting? That's the quote. What are you thinking of when you sit there, immobile, but not moving? This statement is read, go-tsu-go-tsu-chi, i-kan-go, shi-ryo-sen. Dr. Kim translates it as, what are you thinking about in the immobile state of sitting? But it could be just simply stated as, in the immobile state of zazen, what do you think? This go-tsu-go-tsu-chi, like a huge rocky mountain. Sometimes we say, I don't say this because I don't want to mislead you, but it's usually said, you sit like a mountain. When you sit dazen, you should sit immovably, with all of the strength and immovability of a mountain. If I say,

[13:01]

to sit like that, then I don't want people to think that they're a rock. I want you to have flexibility like a mountain, like a tree. I want you to have flexibility like a tree in the wind. But you should sit immovably like a mountain with great strength. So what is the important point? simply be stated as, in the immovable state of zazen, what do you think? This gotsu gotsu chi means immovable like a huge rocky mountain. Chi literally means ground, the state of being. So what is the important point to think about in zazen? This immovable state of sitting could be referring to shikantaza, just as it is. That's shikantaza. That's our practice. That's zazen. Just as it is. or approach to your own zazen is quite all right.

[14:05]

But Dogen Zenji reads this line a little differently. In gotsu gotsu chi, ikan ga shiryo sen. This shiryo, or thinking, becomes a noun. So we read it as, what is the thinking of zazen? This takes it away from my thinking. Zazen is zazen. When we sit, it's not me sitting zazen. It's not not me sitting Zazen, but it's not me sitting Zazen, it's Zazen sitting Zazen. We say Buddha sitting Zazen, but it's not me and it's not Buddha, but Zazen is sitting Zazen, which includes myself and Buddha. We say in Soto Zen, sentient beings and Buddhas are not two. So if you say, I am sitting Zazen, that's not quite right. That's the self. If I say, it's Buddha sitting Zazen, that's not quite right.

[15:06]

Yet, both are right. But Zazen is you, and you are Zazen, and you are Buddha, and Buddha is Zazen. So it's all one piece. In the same way that thinking, not thinking, and non-thinking are three aspects of one piece. So Dogen Zenji reads it as, I said that, So we read it as, what kind of thinking is Zazen? What kind of thinking... What is the thinking of Zazen? Yeah, that's good. What kind of thinking is Zazen? We change the implication of the monk's question in this way. In other words, when we look at it as a statement of the nature of Zazen, rather than a question of what you are doing, Zazen itself becomes the thinking. Do you understand? No? Yes. We change the implication of the monk's question in this way.

[16:14]

In other words, when we look at it as a statement of the nature of Zazen, rather than a question of what you are doing, That's very important because by appreciating it in such a way, you can transcend the dichotomy of you are thinking this and someone is thinking that. It's not about what you are thinking. Because at that point in zazen, you are not you. You are zazen. If we don't understand this, zazen is just a dualistic activity of me doing something. I am thinking this, you are thinking that, and that's where Zazen gets beyond that. Otherwise, it's not Zazen. It was just you thinking your thoughts, and you don't make some effort to realize that it's Zazen. The thinking of Zazen is what's important, not what I'm thinking.

[17:19]

But we always think that what I'm thinking is really important. Why it's so difficult? Because we're always interested in what we're thinking. So do you see how that always traps us? So the monk's question can be seen from a totally different dimension. The monk is not asking, what do you think about when you're sitting? But what kind of thoughts is Zazen expressing? So Zazen has to be seen from the point of view of Zazen, not from the point of view of me. Zazen, taken in this way, is what of the what are you thinking about becomes very important. In a way, it is a question. In a way, it is more like a statement. The monk is expressing his understanding of what Zazen is.

[18:21]

So, think of not thinking. That's the second statement. Yakuzan then replies. or thinking of this non-thinking, I'm thinking of this not thinking. What is, right? That is the usual way to read this. This kono shiryo, or not thinking, and shiryo, or thinking, means thinking of the I'm thinking the unthinkable. Thinking is not thinking. Dr. Kim translates it as, I think of not thinking. But this ko, or kono, means one. And it could be read as, thinking is this not thinking. This is Zen.

[19:25]

This is not your usual way of dualistic thinking. This code contains at one both thinking and not thinking. Thinking is not thinking. Not thinking is thinking. The not thinking. Do you understand? The who's thinking is the same as the not thinking. This kind of thing is very important. When one side is verified, the other side is also verified. When thinking is verified, not thinking is verified. Otherwise, it's just one side of the other. The other side is also verified. Each contains the other. And this ta literally means the bottom, as in the bottom of the river. When you really reach the bottom of this not thinking, then it becomes complete by itself, because it contains everything. This is Joshu's Mu.

[20:26]

monk asked, does the dog have the Buddha nature? And Joshi said, no. And then another monk came along and said, does the dog have Buddha nature? And he said, yes. Which is it, yes or no? Yes or no, just a dualistic statement. Do you think Joshi was making a dualistic statement when he said no? No. Joshu's no is not the same as an ordinary no. Joshu's no also contains yes. How can you say the dog doesn't have buddha nature? Everybody knows that the dog has buddha nature. Why does Joshu say no? Because no contains yes, and yes contains no. Otherwise, you just argue your way throughout your life. as to what's right and what's wrong, who's best and who's right and who's wrong.

[21:32]

How can one think of non-thinking? Not thinking. How can one think of non-thinking? That's the next statement. In this next part, the monk says, not thinking is the house thinking. Does this house thinking make sense to you in any way? No. But no contains yes. This is very difficult to translate. In this state of not thinking, how to think about it? How can you think of not thinking? Again, Dogen Zenji reads it as, not thinking is how's thinking. Why does he read it in such a way? How's, possessive, is a very literal translation. How is a question with a sense of being not decided, as in how much? So utilizing this undecidedness, you say, not thinking is not really not thinking.

[22:34]

Not thinking is okay as is, and yet being not thinking... Go away. It also contains thinking. So not thinking contains thinking. is also not limited to just thinking, but it also contains not thinking. By utilizing this kind of implication of the word, Dogen Zenji extends the content, not restricting it to either thinking or not thinking. Does this make sense? By doing so, you can transcend the limitations of dichotomy. As long as you stick to thinking or not thinking, you're trapped, right there. Then what is it altogether? Not thinking. What is that not thinking?

[23:37]

It's zazen. We come back to the very first question. What is the thinking of zazen? Non-thinking. What is non-thinking? That's the thinking of zazen by which that monk says it's non-thinking. That's the third part. So what to think about? It's not just mere blankness. Such blankness is really nothing of no value. The thinking itself, that's what it is. So what kind of thinking is that? Zazen. So we don't say, you know, people used The Soto school used to sometimes be criticized by people who thought that you're supposed to empty your mind of thinking, and that there should be no thinking. You should have a blank mind. And that's a good criticism.

[24:39]

It should be criticized. But that's not what we do. Having a blank mind is not Dazen. It's just simply having a blank mind, like a stone. So Dogen Zenji tells us that this zazen, thinking, not thinking, and non-thinking, all three are the same. The same thing seen from different perspectives. Recently I read a book by Hashimoto Eko Roshi. When he talks about this particular passage, he uses the analogy of a triangular-shaped crystal period. pyramid. The bottom of this triangular pyramid may be seen as the equivalent to Great Zazen or Gotsu-chi. So when we sit with our legs crossed, it's a triangle. Incidentally, this is the most stable position, is the triangle.

[25:43]

That's one reason why So the bottom of this triangular period may be seen as equivalent to Great Zazen or Gotsu Gotsu-ji, the immovable mountain-like state of Zazen. One plane of the triangle is thinking, another not thinking, and still another is non-thinking. So these are just three borders of the triangle. When you look at it from one side, you actually see only one plane. And yet being transparent, you can also see the other planes. The bottom plane being Zazen, you turn the pyramid over and see a different face that is, or maybe turn it around, you see a different face that is always connected to the other facets as well. So in thinking, there's non-thinking and In thinking, there is not thinking and non-thinking.

[26:47]

In not thinking, there is non-thinking and thinking, and so forth. So when you do zazen with this kind of imaginary structure, you don't need to worry about whether you should do this or that, or do that, because all together, as it is, exists. All the facets are in unity. Definitely, thinking is important. And that thinking is not thinking. And that non-thinking is non-thinking. And that non-thinking is thinking, which is no other than Zazen itself. In Zazen, all these different facets are nicely coexisting. Furthermore, it's fascinating to look at the bottom part of the period as Zazen in terms of its size. What determines the size? In a way, Dogen Zenji says, it neither the Buddha measure It is neither the Buddha measure nor the Dharma measure, neither the measure of enlightenment nor the measure of understanding.

[27:49]

So what is the measurement that determines the size of this triangular pyramid, the size of this zazen? When zazen is done correctly, there is no way that we can measure how big it is. Who was doing zazen? Always oneself was doing zazen. When that self becomes sizeless, that's the way that this triangular pyramid becomes sizeless as well. Now, it's very interesting. When we sit, we think of our size. We're always thinking of our size, the borders and the shape of our body and so forth, and our mind. But when we sit, we let go of that size. That's not our size anymore. Open, open. Duryodhana is a kind of mantra you can use.

[28:51]

Don't say it too much, it doesn't mean anything. Open. But what we do is we try to... We think we're only this big, but actually we're enormous. And the more you open up, the more you realize that yourself is totally expensive and has no boundary. That's Satsang. No boundary. But we think we have a boundary. And the boundary is what causes our problem. When we let go of what we think is our boundary, then we have suffering. But actually, there's no boundary. Even though your butt is the same size when you get off the cushion as it was when you got on. There's actually no boundary. It doesn't matter whether this self is a man, woman, monk, or layman. Such differences have nothing to do with it. Smart or stupid also have nothing to do with it.

[29:55]

I really want to emphasize individual practice. But in a way, we should avoid this individual or personal thing. How do we avoid it? You make it really public, universal, all open to anybody, everybody, everything. And these universal and personal aspects have got to be the same, just as this principle of thinking and non-thinking is the same. How? Only by making the public and private the same, the individual and universal the same. Only by doing so can we transcend these things. That's the kind of zazen that Dogen Zenji talks about. thinking and this house not thinking, and that's the thinking of zazen and is expressed as non-thinking, the non-thinking that contains everything, zazen as well. So he says, how do you yourself take care of Yakusan's koan?

[30:57]

Non-thinking. How do you take care of your zazen as this immovable state which Dogen Zenchi talks about? Or how do you see each plane of the triangular pyramid merging into each other? Zazen and thinking and not thinking and non-thinking, all mutually interrelating and interpenetrating. And this is the kind of Zazen you should do. So this is I really want to express Desi Maru's understanding, but if you have a question... Good.

[32:04]

So there's a little statement. expression of Zazen. The broad deep sky is untroubled by the passing clouds. That's it. The broad deep sky is untroubled by the passing clouds. I can't explain it, but I won't. The broad, deep sky is enthralled by the passing clouds. That's the mind that's in. It doesn't matter what's going on.

[33:07]

The clouds are just always going by and changing. Nothing is stable. All of our thoughts, all of our emotions and feelings, it's all passing by like changing clouds. But big mind is like the big sky, and it's all just clouds going across the big sky. That's us. I'm troubled. That's called serene mind. If you want to have a serene mind, just don't let anything bother you. But we get bothered. We really get bothered. Our bothering fills our mind so that we don't have a serene mind. So, Mr. Maru says, what is hīsīryo? Think not thinking. Thinking without thoughts. Not thinking, but thinking. Beyond thought, it is absolute thought.

[34:11]

You do not think, but your unconscious mind becomes active, and you think unconsciously with the thalamus, the central brain. What comes out is true thought. unthought thought, beyond thought. It is impossible to cut off desires and illusions deliberately. You can't stop your mind from thinking. It is not something we can call, that we can will to happen. You can't will your mind to stop. Little by little, however, in Zazen, our desires cease to bother us. They diminish of themselves, either repress or pursue them. We don't push him away nor run after. That's not thinking. He should heal. There is no truth, no perfect reality, nor is there any real untruth or error. We must go beyond good and evil, beyond satori and illusion.

[35:19]

To experience satori, changes completely and comes back to its normal condition, which means instead of the kaleidoscopic scrambled eggs that is our mind, we return to our original pure mind. That's the story. Zazen is nothing other than the return to a normal condition. Shakyamuni said, I teach only the norm. I don't teach anything special. I only teach what is the norm. But we think that's special. So zazen is nothing other than a return to a normal condition. Satori is not some special state of mind. The light of Buddha's third eye illuminates and overturns the whole world.

[36:21]

Buddha experienced satori for all existences. all living beings, all the things in the universe. You say that Jesus died for your sins, but Shakyamuni Buddha experienced satori for all existences. That was his contribution. All living beings in the universe. So he says suffering and illusions are the creations of our brain. We are constantly running after shadows. phantoms that we manufacture inside our minds. We must blot out the prints of illusions. It can be done by hi shiryo consciousness. What hi shiryo really means is to erase the traces left by foolish thoughts, to live without traces. That is true freedom. When you follow the cosmic system, it is no longer necessary to make categories. He talks a lot about cosmic system.

[37:31]

We must think from the depths of unthinking. He Shiryo is the summit, the explosion, eruption, orgasm of consciousness. Beyond that, beyond thought, it is absolute universal thought. He Shiryo is cosmic consciousness as distinct from individual consciousness. It is the ultimate consciousness beyond space and time. So this is Zazen thinking, Zazen speaking. How do you think without thinking? That is the whole art of Zazen. Concentrate on your posture and let your thoughts pass by without dwelling at any point of consciousness. consciousness, but we cannot do it through the thoughts of our personal consciousness. You can't think your way in. You just have to let go. In regard to hīshīryo, think not thinking, thought is thought, but it is also not thought.

[38:40]

Non-thought is non-thought, but it is also thought. In Zen, we must neither reject nor select. do not turn aside. Shodoka is a treatise written by Nankaku Eijo, the Sixth Patriarch's disciple. We've traced the Renzai lineage from him. Kishiryo cannot be expressed in words or defined in categories. It is the union of object and subject. Objective and subjective, it is Zen. I'm sorry. It is Zen. When we have returned to the state that precedes language, and have a truly profound consciousness to express, then we can speak. Sometimes, I remember, Kadagiri Roshi always used to say, just sit down and shut up.

[39:47]

Then hisuryo becomes the source and root of creativity. I remember Suzuki Roshi saying, Satsang is just a creative act. I'm not doing anything. It is the vast sky, the king of samadhi, the balance of the right and left hemispheres of the brain, control of self. Our personal minds limit the universal light, the cosmic energy, the cosmic system. a cosmic system. Shikizo ze-ku, which means form, becomes emptiness. Ko-sut bu-ze-shiki, emptiness is form. Shiki means existence, the world of phenomena, the visible existential world in all directions, at all levels. It is not distinguishable from ku, or emptiness. That's the Heart Sutra. During Zazen, thoughts, the activity of both consciousness and subconsciousness, gradually die away.

[41:01]

Thoughts, an activity of both consciousness and subconsciousness, of negativity involved. Even though it's beyond everything, it's not a matter of negativity. The substance of zazen is hi shiryo. Phenomena which are ever-changing are governed by the law of impermanence, but the present instance is immutable. The substance of shiki is ku, form. The substance of form is then activity of emptiness is form. So we are born out of ku, or emptiness.

[42:05]

On the mirror ocean, waves come and go. Mirror ocean is our serene mind, which is the norm. The norm is serene mind. But on the ocean of tranquility are the waves. And we're so involved in trying to swim in the waves that we can't see the ocean for the waves or the forest for the tree. So on the mirror ocean, waves come and go. The tranquil surface wrinkles when the waves fade. I'm sorry. The tranquil surface wrinkles. Then the waves fade and the surface of the sea is smooth again. He Shiryo is beyond our individual consciousness, beyond duality, and beyond the opposition of individual in He Shiryo as well. So, this is how to think in Satsang.

[43:16]

The way to think in Satsang is sometimes you're thinking, sometimes there's thinking, sometimes you're thinking, Sometimes you're thinking, sometimes you're not thinking, and sometimes there's just thinking that's thinking. And if you try to sort it out, you get all mixed up. These three are there, but they're not categories. They're not separate categories. Each one contains all the others within. Non-thinking is thinking and not thinking. So, don't try to make a blank mind. One of the constant complaints people have, even though they know better, is they say, I sat that whole period of Zazen and my mind was just going like crazy and there was only about one minute when there was no thought.

[44:24]

And I thought, what terrible Zazen, what wonderful Zazen that is. It doesn't matter. What matters is that you thought it was wrong. You thought that was not right. That's what matters. You were bothered by it. You were bothered by the fact that your mind was full of thoughts. That's not Zazen. Zazen is The mind was full of thoughts. That's shikantaza. The mind was full of thoughts. That's all. One thought after another. When we don't discriminate, then each thought is an enlightened thought. Each thought is an enlightened thought. when we don't discriminate. Does that hold true off the cushion when our mind is turning off thoughts?

[45:39]

Well, we're always off the cushion, and we're always on the cushion. If you think that you're off the cushion, that's a discriminating thought. You're always off the cushion, and you're always on the cushion. Daily life in Zazen is exactly the same thing as Satori. But when you think, you always think, I'm off the cushion, I'm on the cushion, I'm doing my daily life, I'm doing Zazen. Even though you've been practicing for 40 years, you still think that way. The kitchen is, you're sitting on the cushion when you're working in the kitchen. So I'm always saying, when you sit Zazen, think the thought of Zazen. That gives you something. It not only gives you something to do with thinking mind, but it's it.

[46:41]

Think the thought of Zazen is to let Zazen do the thinking. James. The thought is the original sin. There's no such word. Pardon? There's no such word as sin. Well, I'm borrowing a concept. Well, that's the problem. You're borrowing a concept. Just look at what it is instead of comparing it to something else. All right, then there's a sense that thought is bad. No, no. That's your idea. No one ever said bad. Over and over. Over and over. Neither bad nor good.

[47:44]

Neither right nor wrong. Over and over and over. And still you say that's the idea that you're thinking that it's bad. No, I'm not saying that. You did. I'm saying that I kind of hear that percolating I love you, James. It seems like you're almost saying that just don't attach at all to anything that happens. When you thoroughly understand then attachment is okay. It's just another duality. Attachment and non-attachment is just another duality.

[48:45]

Enlightenment and delusion is just another duality. It's not easy to understand. Attachment and non-attachment. You can't live without attachment. So, in order to practice, you practice the non-attachment of attachment and the attachment of non-attachment. You cannot live without being involved with things. grasping and revulsion create problems. It's called attachment. So there's attachment, and then there's the problem of attachment. Attachment is just attachment.

[49:48]

But then there's the problem of attachment, because within attachment there has to be non-attachment, and within non-attachment there has to be involvement. I'm hearing maybe wrongly that you're saying that problems are bad. Problems, you know, is a jewel. A problem is a problem. If we don't have a problem, we don't have any way to practice. You're saying that problems are good? Yes. Problems are... That sounds dualistic. Problems are gems. No, that's non-dualistic. Non-dualism is good? No, that's not what I said. You said I said. That's called archaeology. You said I said is archaeology.

[50:52]

If there's good, there's bad. Yes. If there's good, there's bad. That's right. Problems are good. That's right. Problems are good because you think they're bad. Well, I do. I'm trying to get the idea that they're like nothing. But you have to use language in order to talk about things, right? So you say that I was saying, you're quoting me as thinking that problems are bad. That's what you said. Well, I thought that there was an implication that there was something wrong when you said the word problem. I've been talking about it. Totally the opposite. So I said attachment is a big problem. The problem is something just simply something that we face that we have to deal with. That's a problem. Problem is not good or bad. Can't be, you know,

[51:56]

The thing about a problem is that it gives us a way to bring up a resolution. Without a problem, we don't have anything to tangle with. We have to have something to engage with. And the thing we engage with is called a problem. Doesn't have to be big, doesn't have to be small, but every moment and every activity presents a problem. Opening the door and walking and taking a step provides a problem. So how do I do this? How do I do that? That's all. That's the problem. And so the problem gives us a chance to come to life. And big problems give us a chance to really engage with life in a very, you know, problematical way. But the problem is, the reason I said it's good is because it helps us.

[53:08]

So we become one with the problem. That's called no subject or object. When we become one with the problem, then it's no longer a problem. The problem in zazen? Pain. When we become one with the pain, there's no longer any pain. The reason why is because there's no opposite. What causes pain is an opposite. What causes suffering is an opposite. This is called duality, the dualistic side of our life. Pleasure causes displeasure. Displeasure causes This causes that, this causes that. Good causes bad. But when they bring them together, they're no problem. It's no longer a problem. There still may be something that hurts, but it's no longer a problem in the same way.

[54:11]

That's what Zazen is about. It's about reconciling the opposites. That's why we say non-discriminating mind, right? Discriminating mind chops. It creates good and bad, right and wrong, this and that. Non-discrimination is oneness of discrimination. It doesn't mean that discrimination is not there. It means that they become one. And that's called serenity. That's when you sit. As long as we're trying to escape, you create a problem. As long as you try to escape, you create a problem. So, Zazen proves this to us. That's the proof. That's why we say Zazen is the teacher. Zazen is the teacher.

[55:14]

It teaches us what causes suffering. It's our discriminating mind. As long as our mind is creating all this discrimination and fantasy, we suffer. When we stop doing that and simply settle down, settle down, and just let all that stuff go by without attaching to it, either by longing for it or averting it, we suffer. My design doesn't judge suffering as bad or wrong. No, as long as you like it, it's OK. As long as you like your suffering, no problem. Really? Really. And we do, you know. If we can't have what we want, then because we

[56:15]

We say big Buddha, big ego, big Buddha. And so, because we can't be Buddha, we be big ego, which means big suffering. So, suffering is good for us because, you know, If we did, it helps us to reduce it. You know what I mean? It's like, things that we think are not good for us, actually can be good for us, because they help us to eliminate them. But I'm still there with Paul. But the thing is, I don't know why you want to argue about it. I want to understand.

[57:19]

Okay, that's good. I'll accept that. But I can't convince you. Well, what I'm feeling when I say these things is confusion. I feel like there's contradiction and I'm trying to resolve them. Right, but you can't... I understand what you mean. Right. And I have a lot of faith that you are saying something, that there's something you know that I can understand if I try to question you in a way that Doesn't feel good, perhaps. No, I don't mind that. OK. I just, you know, I just... Good. So, Jim, I continue to be puzzled with non-thinking. Yes. To say the least. So, is non-thinking being at one with that there isn't a way to think about non-thinking?

[58:24]

Non-thinking includes both thinking and not thinking. So you don't have to worry about it. Intellectually, that's why we said Zazen. Don't think about it. Is this not thinking or is this not thinking? This is just a kind of explanation for what happens, but don't try to categorize it in your mind when you're sitting. Just let everything come and let everything go. That's it, really. I'll read this again. The summation is, the broad deep sky is untroubled by the passing clouds. That's the whole thing. That's the koan of Zazen.

[59:28]

That's really the koan of Zazen. Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, has a two-page write-up, or Suzuki Roshi has a write-up on clouds and mountains, and I don't remember the exact thing. Oh yes, yes. It's very close to... Yes, I'll tell you what that is. The blue mountain is the parent of the white cloud. The white cloud is the child of the blue mountain. All day long, they depend on each other without depending on each other. The blue mountain is always the blue mountain. The white cloud is always the white cloud. That's the quote. Even though you don't understand it, you get it. Or even though you get it, you don't understand it. Or something like that. I know it's late, but a question about non-thinking.

[60:31]

How would you describe the difference between non-thinking and a kind of mental drifting? Oh yeah, the difference. Mental drifting is thinking. So there's purposeful thought and inadvertent thought. So there are levels of thinking. Purposeful thought means sit down, put the hands in the mudra, lift the sternum, keep the head on top of the spine, Pay attention to breathing over and over and over. That's purposeful thinking. Mind drifting is inadvertent thinking. That's just the mind wandering and creating clouds, creating cloud forms.

[61:35]

So that's the drifting across the serene mind. When we sit in zazen and it's just purposeful thought, then the mind settles. There are no waves. There are waves, but waves and clouds come across. But the serene mind is always the serene mind. Just like water is always just pure, even though we think it's tainted. Water contains everything. We say we contain water, but actually water contains everything. And then when everything is distilled, water is just water. That's why we can have distilling plants. That's why we can pee in the toilet and still drink water, because it all gets distilled. So the drifting stuff is simply dreams. We call it dreams. And then we think it, you know, we get involved in purposeful thinking with the dream, and our mind gets involved with the dream.

[62:46]

to not dream. We may be a moth in a cocoon. We may be a cocoon dreaming that we're going to be a moth or something, but Zazen is just serene mind. But all the stuff comes and passes by on the ocean of serenity. That's exactly what the poem is saying. It's just not bothered by it, because you're in the serene mind, and you know this is just mind stuff, even though it's connected to your life. You can't do anything about the stuff that's passing through your mind when you're sitting inside it. You can't go out and rescue somebody. You may have a great thought, you need to write it down, but you can't. Everything just goes by. because it won't help.

[63:50]

Sometimes there's the thoughts that are important, so think them. Go ahead. Think them. There's no thought police. Think the thoughts that you want to think. But you have to realize, this is what I'm doing. That's all. So think. And then don't think. And then think not thinking. So we don't judge the stuff that comes up in our mind. There's no judgment. As long as there's no judgment, there's no karma. As long as there's no judgment, there's no karma. Judgment creates the karma. Good, bad, right, wrong, that's judgment. There's no ... nothing like that. When you start judging yourself, you lose your serenity. I thought action creates karma. I thought action No, it's karma. Thought also creates karma. Because you think, and then you think it's the same thought, and then you say, I hate that person, I hate that person, and so you're creating karma by thinking over and over and planting seeds.

[65:04]

You do plant the seeds of thought. So, how does intuition fit into all this? It's all intuition. It's all intuition. Intuition means directly knowing. So when thinking mind is subservient to big mind, then it's directly knowing. It's all intuition. It's not a hunch. That's not intuition. Into it. You're into it. You're one with. So when you say, you often say, strictly speaking, karma is volitional action. Yes. So if a thought, a right, comes up and passes, it's just a thought, but if you create it, and volitionally create more thoughts, then that's creating this... Yes, that's action, mental action.

[66:14]

Thank you. Let's talk on the physical. So the great expanse of self, as you called it, like the sort of... I always think of it kind of like the more from the self it goes, the less ego there is, but... More ego, less universal self, and less ego. more universal stuff? Because I kind of get that's like a duality, I think it will make your ego really small. Yeah, make the ego small. By making your mind big. You know, when your mind is all inclusive, then the ego is small. Because in order to include everything, the ego... The ego is like, you know, if I put my hand like this, I can still see you. But if I do like this, like this, then all I can see is my hand and I can't see anything around it. This is ego.

[67:19]

And so I can't include you because my hand is just thinking about myself. Is ego a sense of self? Yeah. Ego is our sense of self. So we get self-centered and self-absorbed. When we let go of all that, then our self expands and we don't have the same kind of problems as we do when we're stuck with ego, stuck with the idea of ourself, self-absorbed, self-centered, selfish. Don't blame it on me.

[68:11]

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