It sounds like someone's driving piles, piles of it, right to the top of everyone's head. Well, we hope it doesn't go on too long. that you can sing some melody to it. Today, I'm going to present this case from the Buchholz record, case number 65,

[01:02]

which a non-Buddhist philosopher questions the Buddha. In Engo's introduction he says, ìIt has no form and yet appears. It extends in every direction and is boundless. It responds spontaneously and works in emptiness. Even though you may be clever enough to deduce three from one and to detect the slightest deviation at a glance, and though you may be so powerful that the blows fall from your stick like raindrops and your shouts like thunderclaps, you are not yet to be compared with a person of advanced enlightenment. What is the condition of such a person? We'll soon find out. You see the following.

[02:05]

The main subject. A non-Buddhist philosopher said to the Buddha, I do not ask for words. I do not ask for non-words. The world-honored one remained silent for a while. The philosopher said admiringly, the world-honored one in his great mercy has blown away the clouds of my illusion and enabled me to enter the way. After the philosopher had gone, Ananda asked the Buddha, what did he realize? To say he had entered the way. The world-honored one said, replied, a fine horse runs even with the shadow of the lip. And then Siddha has a verse which is translated in various ways. The spiritual wheel does not turn. When it turns, it goes two ways. The brilliant mirror on its stand divides beauty from ugliness and lifts the clouds of doubt and illusion.

[03:13]

No dust is found in the gate of mercy. A fine horse watches for the shadow of the whip and goes a thousand miles a day. To get the horse to come back when I beckon, I'll slap my fingers three times. So, to come back to the beginning, a non-Buddhist philosopher questioned the Buddha. In Buddha's time, there were many philosophers, and Buddha studied with many of them, several of them, and one of the main questions of the time, which was was the question of existence and non-existence, the question of eternalism and annihilation, and what is the meaning of birth and death.

[04:32]

and mostly whatever the Buddhist philosophers would posit was in the realm of duality, and Buddha presented his understanding in the realm of non-duality. This was Buddha's radical So this Brahman philosopher one day came to visit the Buddha too, but that's in the main subject. In Ingo's introduction he says, ëIt has no form unless it appears.

[05:50]

It extends in every direction and is boundless.í So ëití means ëití, that which you And it appears, as we know, as all things. So we say, somebody said to me, I understand that form is emptiness, but it's hard for me to conceive of emptiness as form. I can see that all forms are empty, sort of. But how is emptiness formed? So here he says, it has no form and yet appears as all forms.

[06:56]

Emptiness is form. It extends in every direction and is boundless. So this is the absolute position. and together with the relative position. It responds spontaneously and works in emptiness. Even though you may be clever enough to deduce three from one and to detect the slightest deviation at a glance, to deduce three from one, you know, in the koan about Bodhidharma and the Emperor, the introduction to the koan of Bodhidharma and the Emperor, it says, when you see horns behind

[08:07]

underneath. That's deducing three from one. You see a little bit of something and you know the rest is there. That's being very clever. And to be able to detect the slightest deviation at a glance, to see the difference between things right at a glance, to see when something's off or on, And though you may be so powerful that the blows fall from your stick like raindrops, that's like Darshan and his big stick, you know, 30 blows, either way. And your sharps like thunderclaps, that's Rinzai. Still, you're not yet to be compared with the person of advanced enlightenment, So it is kind of an exaggeration, you know.

[09:12]

Those people did have that ability, that actually enlightenment. But this is his way of speaking, you know. Even these people, you know, were far removed from enlightenment. So what is the condition of such a person? What is the real condition of such a person? Then he says, see the following. Form and no form. To go back to the beginning, it has no form and yet appears and extends in every direction and it responds spontaneously and works in emptiness. There are two aspects of Samadhi. One is the samadhi of no form and the samadhi of form.

[10:18]

Samadhi of no form is, I would call, unconditioned samadhi. And the samadhi of form, I would call samadhi of conditions. So samadhi of no form is the samadhi of zazen. or touching the unconditioned side, even though there's only one side. It's resting in the unconditioned. And the samadhi of form is samadhi within conditions. So when you come to the zendo, you sink into the samadhi of no conditions, unconditioned samadhi.

[11:23]

And when you leave, go out the door and go to work and drive your car and get involved at the bank and all these problems, you move through that world, the conditioned world, in a conditioned samadhi, a samadhi within conditions. So one is, the first one is dynamic activity within stillness, and the other is stillness within dynamic activity. This is the two sides. Form is emptiness. Emptiness is form. You know, there's form is emptiness. Emptiness is form. Form is form.

[12:25]

Emptiness is emptiness. And in the middle is the word just. Everything is just as it is, which is the practice of just is called shikantaza. shikantaza is supported by form is emptiness, emptiness is form, form is form, emptiness is emptiness, without discrimination. So in the main subject, A non-Buddhist philosopher came to visit the Buddha and he said, I don't ask for words and I don't ask for non-words.

[13:36]

So words here means, refers to existence and non-existence. In other words, I don't ask for your words on existence. And I don't ask for your non-words on existence. Or I don't ask for your words on birth and death. I don't ask for your non-words on birth and death. The World Honored One remains silent for a while. This is a little bit like Vimalakirti, but Buddha did it first. And the philosopher said admiringly, the world-honored one in his great mercy has blown away the clouds of my illusion and enabled me to enter the way.

[14:40]

So where is the Ah, Buddha is just being himself, right? Buddha is just being in that position of just. Just this. He's not leaning to one side or another. He's not leaning to words, and he's not leaning to non-words, even though he didn't say anything. So, silence is a way of speaking. In Vimalakirti's case, it's called the thundering silence of Vimalakirti. So some people say everything without saying anything, and some people don't say anything even though they're constantly talking.

[15:40]

So Buddha's response is beyond speech and non-speech. This is the realm of non-duality. But he could have said something with his mouth and probably would have been okay. But it is a kind of koan for Buddha, you know. the philosopher handed him this koan. He said, without falling into ends or non-ends, without falling into is or isn't, without falling into birth or death, without falling into form and emptiness, what is it? So, but the Buddha, expressed it. So when the philosopher faced him, the philosopher saw himself mirrored in the Buddha's countenance and understood through that mirroring.

[17:03]

He saw himself clearly in Buddha's face. So after the philosopher had gone, Ananda asked the Buddha, what did he realize? So Ananda was Buddha's cousin and studied with Shakyamuni. and he had a remarkable mind, you know, he was very astute and intellectual, and he could recite all kinds of intellectual treatises, and remembered everything the Buddha said. So, you know, when they were writing the sutras, they always asked Ananda,

[18:07]

And so the Buddha said, well, he said such and such, and that's why the sutras often start out saying, thus have I heard. This is Ananda reciting the sutras. Of course, we don't know if this is really so, but it's a good story. But Ananda didn't get it, and he had to wait for the Buddha to pass on, and then he became the Mahakasyapa's student, and had realization under Mahakasyapa, but that's another koan. One day, as he was studying with Mahakasyapa, he asked Mahakasyapa, what did the Buddha pass on to you besides the robe and the bowl?

[19:22]

And Mahakasyapa said, ananda. Ananda turned around and he said, take down the flagpole at the gate In those days, philosophers and spiritual leaders would set up a banner with a flag on it and invite others to come and debate with them. So when a philosopher would see this flagpole with a flag on it, he'd say, well, I'll go try to test them out. So they had these debates like that, and then whoever lost the debate became the disciple of the other one. You had to be careful in those days. But when he said that, take down the flagpole at the gate, Ananda had a realization.

[20:31]

So, after the philosopher had gone, Ananda asked the Buddha, when did he realize that he had entered the way? And the World Honored One replied, a fine horse runs even at the shadow of the whip. This story comes from a sutra. in which Buddha compares those students or people who are alert enough to start investigating. The fine horse who runs off, who runs, just seeing the shadow of the whip, doesn't have to see much, just, you know, the shadow of the whip, is compared to a person who hears about someone died in the next town and immediately starts investigating transiency.

[21:50]

The second horse, the second kind of person is compared to the horse that runs when the whip touches its skin or its hair. And that person is the one who starts investigating when he hears about someone in his own town that died. And the third horse is the one that runs when the whip reaches its skin. And that person is described as one who starts investigating when someone in his family dies. And the fourth horse is the one who starts running when the whip pierces its skin.

[22:52]

And that person is compared to the one who sees his own death imminent. Suzuki Roshi talked about this a long time ago. He said, which horse do you think Buddha had the most compassion for? Yeah, so, you know, everyone is the last horse, right? So, even though everybody wants to be the first horse, we end up being the last horse. It's a difficult subject for most people. So we often try to avoid it. And even though we do think about it, it doesn't pierce us.

[23:56]

We don't really start running until the whip's piercing our hide. But that's maybe natural. I think that's natural. So he says, a fine horse runs even at the shadow of the whip. So in Setso's verse, he says, the spiritual wheel does not turn, but when it turns it goes two ways. The spiritual wheel does not turn, it is like stillness. This is like, as Hongzi says, sitting in the center of the circle where light issues forth. That's the spiritual wheel. It does not turn.

[24:58]

That's total stillness. When it turns, it goes two ways, toward the conditioned and the unconditioned. It doesn't fall into sides. So he's talking here about existence and non-existence. You know, when the wheel turns, that's the conditioned realm, existence and non-existence. But that conditioned realm, existence and non-existence, exists on the basis of the wheel that doesn't turn. It's like existence and non-existence are seen from the viewpoint of each other.

[26:17]

But from the viewpoint of the center, they exist together at the root. They both sit on the same seat. The brilliant mirror on its stand divides beauty from ugliness. The brilliant mirror is like Buddha's face. When the philosopher was looking at Buddha, he was looking at the brilliant mirror, the mirror of the clear mirror, the great round mirror, which is Buddha's face. mirror of non-duality, but everything is reflected. When he says divides, it doesn't really mean dividing. It means when beauty shows up, beauty is reflected.

[27:22]

When ugliness shows up, ugliness is reflected without discrimination. This is called seeing things as it is. This is what Suzuki Roshi used to talk about all the time, to see things as it is. is the function of the clear mirror mind. So this is like describing the philosopher seeing himself reflected in Buddha's face. So, the clear mirror on its stand divides beauty from ugliness and lifts the clouds of doubt and illusion. So, his doubt and illusion were lifted. And then he says, a fine horse, I'm sorry, no dust is found in the gate of mercy. No dust is found in the gate of mercy.

[28:25]

So no dust means nothing covering, right? And this is Buddha's merciful activity, is to just be himself. Suzuki Roshi used to talk about this. He'd say, just sit zazen and don't worry about what you do when you go outside. Just be yourself. sit Zazen and just leave and be yourself. He said, don't even talk to each other, actually. Everybody just come to Zazen and then you leave and go out and do your stuff and just pay attention to what you're doing out there. When you come here, just pay attention to what you're doing here. When you go out there, just pay attention to what you're doing out there. That's a little bit bare. But, you know, he was saying, if you really do that, then you'll be practicing, coming and going, which will be the same.

[29:32]

You will not be on one side or another. You will not fall into emptiness and you won't fall into form. If you really practice that subtly, subtle practice of extending practice into your daily life without trying to extend it. If your practice is really pure and sincere without trying to extend it, you extend it. Of course, we have the precepts and all this, right? But this is the basic thing. you can add all that other stuff on top of it. But that's the basic thing. No dust is found at the gate of mercy. But this also implies that Buddha cut off the bone of contention.

[30:39]

Contention means between the argument between existence and non-existence, which all the philosophers were arguing about. So he took away the bone of contention from the philosopher, took away his argument. There's nothing to argue about, nothing to discuss. So he says, a fine horse watches for the shadow of the whip, and I just explained that. He goes a thousand miles a day. The emperors had this, you know, one of these mythical Chinese emperors had a mythical horse who galloped a mythical thousand miles a day. to get the horse to come back when I beckon, I'll snap my fingers three times at him."

[31:43]

And this is a bone of contention among commentators. What did he mean by that? Some people said he means that a good horse should not come back when he beckons, when he snaps his finger three times. He should be independent. I don't like that answer. The other side says, the horse is, and the person that snaps the fingers are so in sync that the horse responds immediately. I like that better. Oh, the first one is that the horse should be independent enough to not pay attention, but to not come just because somebody snapped their fingers.

[32:48]

So you have to snap it three times? No, no. If you snap your fingers three times, the horse wouldn't just come because you asked. The ornery, it should be more ornery. To get the horse to come back, when I beckon, I'll snap my fingers three times at him. To get them to come back, I'll go like this. And if the horse should be more independent, not come back just because I snap my fingers. I don't like that particular interpretation. You can like it if you want. Where what? I don't get that as an interpretation at all. Where does that come from? Well, that's what some people say. There's a Zen saying, even if you strike him, he doesn't look back.

[34:01]

This describes the attitude of a truly independent person. If the horse comes at my beckoning, he's not worthy to be called truly independent." I don't like that so much. But there's a whole range of interpretations. That's one of them. I like the one that says, is this criticism or scattering sand? I like it left up to it as a question. Is this criticism or scattering sand, or is it just saying something? what you said the second time is included in the first one. Because the independent horse wouldn't normally come when you beckon. But in this case, with a very strong connection, it comes. Yeah. So it's a kind of koan, in a way. A little koanette within a koan.

[35:04]

What? A new musical title there. So there's a wonderful little anecdote here. When Pai Cheng was studying with Fa Yen, Yen had him contemplate this story, this one, you know, this koan. What incident are you contemplating? And Chong said, the outsider questions the Buddha. The outsider is the philosopher, right? Yen said, stop, stop. You are about to go to his silence to understand, aren't you?

[36:09]

At these words, Chong was suddenly greatly enlightened. Later, in teaching his community, Pai Chong said, I mean, yeah, on Pai Chong, there are three secrets. Pai Chong means on my mountain. There are three secrets, drink tea, take care, and rest. If you still try to think any more about these, I know you're still not through. So this has a real correspondence with Buddha's response to the philosopher. I remember Suzuki Roshi's nice statement,

[37:17]

and we give talks and we try to make things clear, but we make a mistake on purpose. It's a mistake to do this, to talk about, but we do it on purpose, knowing that it's a big mistake. So we have to be very careful. And when you make this mistake, we have to be careful because we're speaking, we go in and out of oneness and duality. And as soon as you open your mouth, you fall into duality. Unless you do something incisive. That's why people use blows and shouts. But, you know, Joshu had a golden tongue, and so did Uman.

[38:32]

So, not necessary to use blows and shouts. It should be expressed in every activity. Every activity is a way to express it. Do you have a question? and emptiness, are they equivalent? Well, emptiness means interdependence.

[39:34]

It means that which, it is not a specific object, thing. It refers to anything, right? It is neutral and refers to anything. So you can say, this is it, and this is it, and this is it. But it doesn't take on the characteristics. It may take on the characteristics of what you point to, but it's also independent of them. It sounds like it's there in shots. Yeah. So, but if you say, is it the same, it's the same and it's not the same. Because if you say it's the same, then you wouldn't have to use the two terms. James Kenney.

[40:43]

Whatever doesn't mean following your lower desires. That's not what he meant by that. I'm wondering how such an outcome happens. Say that again. Well, one has to be tuned into the dharma.

[42:11]

You have to be attuned. You have to take it seriously. So he wasn't saying, sit once in a while and then go at it. He was saying, he was referring to constancy of practice. I beg your pardon? Well, you have to understand some things, which you're talking about Richard, right? Yes. Okay, okay. People have residual karma, you know, so when a student comes to practice they bring their karma with them. if the karma is stronger than their practice, then it's hard for them to control themselves even though they're practicing.

[43:49]

And people have ability on one hand and karma on the other. So a person's ability will bring them up to a very high place, but their karma, unless they're taking care of it, will ultimately destroy them. So one has to have a high respect for karma. You can't ignore karma. So at the same time that one is practicing, one is taking care of dealing with the effects of karma. So sometimes people can

[44:54]

reduce the effect of their residual karma through practice, but sometimes if they don't or if it's too strong then it becomes dangerous. To pursue this from a slightly different direction, I was I also was a little bit troubled by Suzuki Roshi's instruction of just sit and then go out because for me it does leave... it neglects to say anything about Sangha. And it was indeed one of the strong difficult conditions in that whole Zen Center situation that there wasn't so much of a horizontal Sangha. that people looked to Suzuki Roshi, and then they looked to Richard Baker, and there wasn't so much support structure.

[46:00]

Well, let me say something. And so when, I mean, this residual karma is always there, and how necessary it is to have this one body practice that we have so much here. But at the same time that Suzuki said that, on the other hand he said, this is the practice of Sangha. He said, the main thing is the practice of Sangha. So he said both things, you know. So he was emphasizing one thing on this side and emphasizing something else on this side. So when you emphasize something, that's the way it goes. and we have to understand that. It doesn't mean this is the ultimate truth, it simply means get this picture, you know, and then this is also a picture of practice. But during Suzuki Roshi's time, there was a strong feeling of more horizontal feeling of Sangha.

[47:06]

When Richard became Abbot, Um, Peter? I can't hear you. Yeah, there's an airplane. Yeah. Oh, yes. You know, when people speak about evil, you know, evil shows up as the Buddha, you know, in disguise. So how do you avoid that? Well, you have to be discerning. You have to have some intuition about, I mean, there are certain signs, you know.

[48:10]

One sign, let's say in a teacher, is if the teacher wants something from you, you should be careful. That could be a sign of, you know, just wanting something from you is a danger sign. Or somebody who manipulates, you know, you can see them manipulating students. or dividing them. You can tell when something is egotistical activity and when it's not. You should be able to discern that. A lot of people can't. They don't know, yeah. Isn't that also one of the roles of Sangha practice, to have people

[49:17]

that you can talk to about what's going on in your practice. Oh yes. It seemed odd to me and what do you think? Yeah, well that's right, the sangha should be able to question everything. I guess if that's discouraged then that's a danger sign. That's a danger sign, that's right. you know, when the, in the early Buddhist Sangha, when they had the patimokka, the rules, there were different rules that were of varying degrees of seriousness.

[50:41]

And when you broke a rule, So there was a vertical dimension and a horizontal dimension. And that's a very fruitful tension, you know, between those two. Well, yeah, you have to have a vertical as well as horizontal. And if it's too vertical, then it becomes kind of dictatorial. And when it's too horizontal, it lacks direction. I just wonder, how are we to take the usefulness of this koan, if given the fact that, you know, Laurie's, in his Dharma group, they called it, his Dharma group is called Bleeding Horses.

[52:02]

Laurie's Dharma group. Bleeding Horses? Bleeding Horses. Bleeding. Fourth Horse. Fourth Horse. Fourth Horse. Right. If we are, Well, the story is to wake you up so you can see, well, where am I on this scale? Where am I on this scale? And this little pointer of, in this story I read, drink tea, take care and rest, right?

[53:24]

Like, what does that mean? And if you have to think too much about it, you know, you're not there yet. So it's pointing out, like, where is the settled feeling? How, you know, where will you find the settled feeling? Where will you settle? Can you settle in when you really, can you really rest when you rest? Can you really drink tea when you drink tea? Can you really take care of your affairs when you take care of them? Without worrying about. how are you going to settle?

[54:25]

In other words, in the midst of these questions, in the midst of the question about existence, non-existence, birth and death, where will you settle? And along with that, I mean you're talking about these four horses which sound like sort of ranging from horses to donkeys. How do you channel that kind of... because it sounds like sort of falling into sloth and torpor about horses that go the other way. Well, there are many variations and many complications. The skittish horse, you should drive him over the cliff. The fourth and fifth horse idea is one I've wanted to ask for a long time.

[55:48]

And my parents claim, we talked about them dying, and they say that they are not at all afraid of dying, and they're ready to go. And when people that have died already, they called everybody in and said goodbye, there was just no problem. Well, when you get old enough, that's common. I remember Suzuki Roshi saying, Because you're young, you probably won't relate to this, but at a certain point, when you get old enough, you're happy to go. It's not a problem for some people. Well it's not that, it's the question of birth and death. What is the meaning of this birth and death?

[57:07]

And how can you, you may not get that old. So when you, you know, for us young people, you know, but as you get older, the mountain gets narrower and narrower. And, you know, if you get up to there, how do you get up to there before you get to there? That's the question. So that you can live your life in peace. You can live a settled life instead of an anxious life. It's really time to go. But James had one question, so I'll... Well, Paul, I just wanted to say, are you really practicing out of fear of death, or are you practicing because you want to live this life?

[58:16]

No. We're practicing because it's enjoyable. Just look at it. I'm not practicing out of any burning question, to tell you the truth, I'm simply practicing because it's the most interesting thing to do. Studying Buddhism is the most interesting thing to study and practicing is the most And Andrea is having quite a... Why do you practice? Because I like something. Okay, same thing isn't it? We hope.

[59:19]

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