Good morning. I have the opportunity to introduce our guest speaker for today, Steve Proskauer. Steve Proskauer is practicing for a long, long time with Genpo Sensei. Genpo Sensei is a lineage holder in the Mayasumi Roshi lineage. He has temples all around the world and Steve travels And today's presentation might have some chaos in it, but it will not be specifically about that theory. So I'd like to welcome Steve. Thank you. Thank you. Good morning. Morning. It's a beautiful morning, huh? Just walking around outside, seeing the dew drops on the leaves and hearing the birds singing and the flowers. This is a magnificent temple.

[01:12]

And I'm tremendously grateful to be able to have stayed here for this past week. Certainly the experience of being at the Shusho ceremony Monday night and sitting with all of you. during these past days, it far overshadows the reason that I originally came to San Francisco at this time, which was to give a few papers at a professional meeting. This is really a touching experience and I'm really grateful for the hospitality that all of you have shown towards me. Like many of you, I was kind of hoping and expecting that Mel Weitzman would be here to give a talk this morning, but it didn't work out that way, and I'm kind of pinch-hitting at the last minute.

[02:18]

So I apologize. It's certainly a poor substitute. whatever I might have to say. I haven't been practicing for so very long by Zen standards. I've only been with Genpo Sensei for about eight years. And before that I was dabbling in meditation, but not with any really rigorous schooling. So I feel like I'm very green. And I apologize ahead of time for any way in which I might unwittingly mislead you. The Dharma is a profound vehicle, and it's very difficult to talk about it. I was originally thinking that when someone brought up the possibility that I might give a talk today, I thought, well, I gave this talk

[03:21]

at the Chaos Society meetings on Chaos Theory as Buddha Dharma. And I thought that would be an interesting topic. But actually what has happened is that I'm up to here with Chaos Theory after a week at the meetings. And I'm just so grateful to be here just practicing Zen. So, and what's been coming up in my sitting has been one of the cases from the Blue Cliff Record, which is one of the two most well-known collections of case colons in the Zen tradition, the other one being the Mumonkan, the Gateless Gate. And in our practice, perhaps I might say something about this since it's different, I believe, from what happens in this sangha. In the Maizumi Roshi tradition, which Genpo Sensei is faithfully handing down, we practice with these koans.

[04:31]

And we take them one by one and sit with them and present them to our teacher. until the teacher is satisfied that we have clear understanding of each one. And this is a formidable task, because in the Mizumi Roshi tradition, there are 750 koans that we go through. And I'm still sort of in the foothills of that process. And I'm kind of hoping that it lasts beyond, that I never finish, because it's such a powerful practice. And every time I... think that I have some understanding and begin to get arrogant about it, along comes the next koan, and it smashes me back into that place of cluelessness, which is my dharma name, muho, means clueless one.

[05:34]

And you'll understand by the end of this talk how absolutely appropriate that name is. My teacher got a good laugh when he gave that, too. He's always picking good names for people. Anyway, this koan is a little bit longer than most of them because it actually has a poem in the middle of it. So I'm going to start now and read it to you. And then when I get done reading it, we'll go through it part by part. I don't know just what's going to happen. It's always a bit of an adventure, but we'll see. It's certainly been coming up strongly for me about my life, and maybe it will mean something to you about yours. The whole point of these koans is not for us to get covered with dust reviewing ancient events that happened a thousand years ago.

[06:42]

The point is to face our own lives. And the koans are an aid to that process. They help us to face aspects of our lives that we might otherwise have difficulty coming face to face with. So this is case number 18. And I'm working with two translations here, one which is given here in this book and the other one which is the Akin Roshi translation that we use in our tradition. So I'm gonna be switching back and forth and that's kind of an interesting process in itself. From time to time I'll give you both translations so you can see how there are different nuances just from that. This koan is called the National Teacher Chung's Seamless Tomb. Seamless Tomb.

[07:45]

And the case goes like this. Emperor Tzu Tsung asked National Teacher Hui Chung, after you die, what will you need? The National Teacher said, build a seamless monument for me. The emperor said, please tell me, master, what this monument would look like. The national teacher was silent for a long time. Then he asked, do you understand? The emperor said, I don't understand. The national teacher said, I have a disciple to whom I have transmitted the teaching, Tan Wang, who is well versed in this matter. Please summon him and ask him about it." After the national teacher passed on, the emperor summoned Tan Wang and asked him what was the meaning of this.

[08:59]

replied with this poem. South of Shang, north of Tan, in between there's gold sufficient to a nation. Beneath the shadowless tree, the community ferry boat. Within the crystal palace, there's no one who knows. Nice poem, huh? Now, I'm going to read the poem again, because in between each of the lines of the poem, the commentator, we call him Setcho, but that's the Japanese name. His Chinese name is Xue Tu. He has added comments on each line of the poem.

[10:03]

So now I'll read the poem again and add his comments. South of Shang, north of Tan. And here is Setso's comment. A single hand does not make a random sound. In between, there's gold sufficient to a nation. Setso says, a rough-hewn staff. Beneath the shadowless tree, the community ferry boat. Setso says, the sea is calm, the rivers are clear. Within the crystal palace, there's no one who knows. Setso comments, he has raised it up So let's go through this together.

[11:07]

And once again, I want to apologize for whatever I may say about this koan. Undoubtedly, it will not penetrate to the depth of it. In fact, I have to confess, so that none of the blame rests on my teacher, that I haven't had an opportunity to present my understanding of this koan to him yet. It's one that I'm working on now, and I may be very red-faced when I come out of Doksan and find out I've misled you all. But I'm taking that risk because I see that this koan can be understood on so many different levels that even if I don't hit the major one, at least there's something to think about here. So here's the emperor asking his Zen teacher,

[12:08]

And this is the national teacher, the teacher who lives in the palace with the emperor. After you die, what do you need? He's offering to do something for his teacher after he dies. This must be somewhat towards the end of his life. Now, in the original, the emperor spoke very politely. He did not say, after you die. He said, after a hundred years. what should I do for you, which was the polite way of saying after you're dead and gone. Now, it's really remarkable. It's always been remarkable to me in these stories, in the koans about emperors and their teachers, the relationship between the emperor and the teacher, and the freedom that the teacher manifests in dealing with the emperor.

[13:11]

You must remember that emperors in those days in China had absolute power. With just a word, they could have somebody executed. They didn't even have to have a reason. And yet, these Zen teachers could tweak their noses at the emperor. And I think that's pretty remarkable because it was certainly possible that the emperor could get pissed off and have the teacher executed. Things like that happened. And there was more than the teacher's life at stake here because then the emperor could decide that Zen Buddhism was evil and he could have all the monks destroyed and the monasteries torn down. that a teacher could operate with absolute freedom in a situation like this without trying to court the favor of the emperor.

[14:15]

I've always felt that was a remarkable feat and a kind of a tribute to the power of the practice. So the national teacher uses this opportunity to teach the emperor something. He says, build a seamless monument for me, a seamless tomb. So immediately, what does he mean by that? What's a seamless monument? So the emperor asks, what is that? What would it look like? Other translations make it clear that the emperor is taking the teacher seriously and literally. How would you design a tomb like that? Is what the emperor seems to be asking.

[15:19]

Now the national teacher falls silent for a long time. We could imagine him sitting in Zazen with the emperor. One could imagine that he's pondering how to respond, but more likely, he's just sitting. And then he says, he asks the emperor, do you understand? And the emperor says, I don't get it. And like so often happens in these koans, the teacher says, well, I have a disciple, a successor of mine, who knows this through and through. Go talk to him, or in this case, summon him to your court and ask him about it. He seems to be saying, I've had my best shot at transmitting this to you.

[16:28]

You'll have to ask somebody else now. So after the national teacher dies, the emperor calls Tan Wan, we call him Tangen in Japanese, and asks him what the meaning of the national teacher's seamless tomb was. And Tan Wan answers with the poem. So let's go back a little bit. I would like to dedicate whatever merit there is in this talk to the memory of Maezumi Roshi, who died a little over a year ago. I'm reminded of a story that Genpo Sensei tells about Maezumi Roshi, that he would, And he would sometimes reply, when somebody would ask him, what is Zen?

[17:30]

He would say, oh, it's a seamless tomb. That was his favorite expression. Other times he would say, when someone asked him, what's the point of Zen? He would say, to become stupid. He said things like that. It's not working well for me. I've got to sit more. Crazy I am, but not stupid enough yet. So what does this monument look like? The hint that we get from Waisumi Roshi that it has something to do with Zen. So what does seamless mean? Seamless to me brings up the whole thing of non-separation. There's no seam anywhere. There's no separation anywhere.

[18:33]

So the national teacher is saying something about non-duality, non-separation. And what is, after all, a Zen teacher's tomb or monument? What does it have to do with? You might say, not so important what the grave looks like. More important, how has the Dharma been transmitted? Has the the true dharma been transmitted. That's the concern of every teacher. Every true teacher is concerned about that more than anything else. That's why the national teacher isn't thinking about what his monument is going to look like.

[19:46]

He doesn't care about that. He cares about that the emperor should have as clear an understanding as possible before he dies. It's very moving, the single-pointedness of these teachers that we have the benefit of studying with. That they are able to dedicate their lives so wholeheartedly to passing on their understanding that they have received from their teacher. Even more important than their very lives, Because what if the emperor had had a tantrum because the teacher had embarrassed him by refusing to answer and making him look foolish because he doesn't understand? He could have lost his life over this incident. But more important to him was that the emperor should understand.

[20:48]

So it has something to do with Passing on this teaching of non-separation and non-duality on one level, that's a big part of it. But the emperor is really caught up somehow in what this tomb should look like, so he doesn't get it, and he has to ask again after the teacher has passed away. And now we perhaps could take a few minutes to go through the poem. Well, I think before I do that, I should say something a little bit about why this koan is coming up so strongly for me. I don't want to make a big deal about it because it's certainly true that this comes up for all of us, but particularly If you're just starting in Zen practice, it's something to think about and to realize that it keeps coming up as you go along, over and over.

[22:01]

How do we lead our lives in a seamless way? What does that mean? How do we live without creating separation from other people? creating division within ourselves that causes conflict. That's what the peace and serenity of the accomplished Zen practitioner has something to do with resolving that question. Something to do with letting go of these ideas and concepts that we have that create separation, that create seams in our lives. And then we have ways of creating division that can cause so much misery to ourselves and to other people. And the mind wants to figure things out, so distinctions and separations are very much

[23:10]

the business of the mind. Lately for me it's been, you know, how much do I put my Zen practice in top priority and how much do I pursue what looks like it might be an interesting career in social science research. And actually, after this week of meetings, I have to admit, all I want to do is sit down and look at the flowers. I don't want to, I don't find myself strongly drawn towards ambitious research endeavors. And so it's been a really good teaching to throw myself into it wholeheartedly, and then to find out that, well, really I just want to come back home to my cushion. and not make such a big deal about it, but I may still do it.

[24:12]

If I do it, I hope and pray that I can be diligent enough about my sitting practice so that I don't lose touch with this seamlessness, which is the gift of sitting. It's not something that comes out of thin air. It seems to be that we realize the non-separation that exists in this existence that we live in through our sitting, that the sources of separation drop away as we sit. This is, to me, the most beautiful gift that anyone could receive, is this opportunity to let the distinctions and divisions drop away so that we can really appreciate life as it is, whatever comes along. And really be sensitive to other people. Because as long as we're making distinctions and separations, it's hard to pay attention to what's really in front of us.

[25:20]

I know this is true for me. And I keep falling into these traps all the time. And sitting seems to be what allows it to release and creates more space. And so whatever I do, I know that it's important for me to sit and to sit as much as I can. So that whatever I do, it's done in the spirit of seamlessness, in the spirit of non-duality, in the spirit of being one with everything and being connected. And of course, we all have aspirations and ambitions to be separate and special. And that's unavoidable, just part of human nature. I loved it on Monday night when Ross was reveling in his ego, and it was just great to hear that admitted so openly, because we all have it, you know?

[26:24]

It's a part of me that doesn't think that there's any difference between sitting up here and talking with you And cleaning the bathrooms, which is what I was doing an hour ago, it's all the same. And then there's another part of me that says, wow, you're giving a talk, big deal. But it really isn't. In a way, it's a lot safer and cleaner to be cleaning the bathrooms than to be sitting up here and muddling around trying to talk about the Dharma. So anyway, that's why I think one reason this koan is so strong for me right now, it has to do with really taking care of and nurturing that seamlessness in my own life. And I hope that maybe some of you can relate to that because these decisions about, oh, what am I going to do next with my life?

[27:29]

Or what about this relationship I'm in? Or what about this? Do I move here? Do I go there? All these things come up all the time, and somehow we lose track of what's underneath it all, which is the oneness of everything, lack of division. I remember the day when I was sitting with Genpo Sensei in Bar Harbor, Maine, and all of a sudden it dawned on me very strongly that the air that I was breathing in and out of my lungs there was no barrier, there was no division, there was no marker between that air and all the rest of the air around the earth. It was all just air. It wasn't my air, it wasn't main air or Chinese air, it was just air, one thing. And somehow that really hit me hard. Because it's so obvious, right? But who ever thinks about it?

[28:31]

Well, now I'll just take a few minutes to go through the poem and then maybe we have some time for questions or comments. South of Shang, north of Tan is the first line of the poem. I don't know exactly where those places are, but I'm imagining that it's a little bit like saying from Mount Shasta all the way down to San Diego. over the whole country. And Setso comments, a single hand does not make a random sound. Another translation of this is, the palm of the one hand does not make a sound in vain. That translation suggests that They refer us, I think, to this koan, what is the sound of one hand?

[29:37]

That the transmission of the Dharma, referred to here by the koan, is not in vain. That it's all over the land, it's all over the country. In between, there's gold sufficient to a nation That gold, what is it? It's not the Emperor's riches, I don't think, that Setso's talking about. I mean, that Tongan is talking about here, but maybe he's talking about the gold of the Dharma that's been spread by these dedicated teachers all over the country, and there's enough for everybody. And Satcho adds the comment, a rough-hewn staff, a stick, the teacher's stick.

[30:40]

In another translation it says, without ornament. This is the teaching transmitted from teacher to student with utter directness and simplicity. It doesn't rely on words and letters It doesn't rely on particular rituals. It's something direct, mind-to-mind transmission. And the rough-hewn staff means there's nothing ornamental about it. There's nothing filigree about it. It feels to me like it's saying, this is the direct teaching of the Dharma. Beneath the shadowless tree, the community ferryboat, It's very hard for me to talk about this without crying. I'm sorry. The shadowless tree.

[31:45]

What comes up immediately for me is Buddha sitting under the Bodhi tree, realizing the truth for everyone. And that's the community ferryboat. His realization, faithfully transmitted for 2,500 years, is a vehicle that we can all receive that takes us to the other shore. Of course, the other shore is right here. When we experience it as the seamlessness of life, the non-duality of life. But besides the realization, there's also the practice of sitting under the tree and realizing it moment to moment ourselves. And the tears that come up are just the immense gratitude that I feel that he was able to do that and find a way to transmit it so that we can receive it.

[33:02]

2,500 years later, this teaching is still alive and still touching people's hearts. It's really a miracle when you think about how things come and go in this world, how quickly things come and then they're forgotten. But for 2,500 years, this teaching has been carefully nurtured and passed along. Satcho comments, the sea is calm. The rivers are clear. Again, maybe many things are referred to, but for me, it's Buddha sitting there calmly under the tree, seeing clearly to the bottom. And that's the deep Samadhi. that comes with concentrated practice, the deep understanding, the understanding that goes beyond words, that comes with long practice.

[34:14]

Within the crystal palace, there's no one who knows. Another translation is, there's no intellect. Oh, what is this crystal palace? Well, same as Seamless Tomb, huh? It's you and me. We're each of us, all of us, the crystal palace. And when this understanding arises and matures, the discriminative knowing is not what it's about. It's not how to.

[35:21]

distinguish random noise from deterministic chaos by a series of statistical tests. It's not about that. That's what we were talking about this week. One of the things. It's about knowing a different kind of knowing. It's about experiencing directly. So there's no one who knows. There's just experience. Just it. within your crystal palace, the palace of your awareness, the palace of your being. And Setso concludes with this comment, he has raised it up, or the tesho is finished. There's nothing more to be said. So with that, I'll shut up. Thank you.

[36:24]

Any comments or questions? Thank you for your lecture and for understanding. Many of these koans are particularly involving the emperor or something. Well, in this book, I guess this is the Cleary translation, it says monument.

[37:33]

The Aiken translation says tomb. So you can take your pick. I think both have their value. Tomb is... That word has a lot more depth to it in some ways, doesn't it? Because it brings up about depth. I'm reminded of one of the early koans that we study in our tradition. It goes like this. How do you get out of a stone grave that's locked from the outside? I appreciate what you're saying about the emperor and all the other straight men and these Kohans. I brought up a similar question once.

[38:50]

Yes, I was just going to mention him. Emperor Wu, who missed it, you know, and then Bodhidharma crossed the river and never returned. Bodhidharma had just arrived from India and The emperor saw him and asked him, he was coached by his teacher, to ask the question, what is the first principle of the Dharma? So he asked the question, and one can imagine this kind of wild-eyed barbarian, who didn't look at all Chinese, so he must have looked very strange in that court, he says, vast emptiness, no holiness. You know, and here the emperor had been busy trying to support Buddhism and in one stroke this foreigner sweeps it all away.

[39:59]

There's nothing there. And I think, I don't remember the exact words right now, but Emperor Wu asked something about, well, isn't there any merit, like for building temples, you know, and all the good things that I do to help Buddhism? Isn't there anything? Isn't there something? Give me something, you know? And Bodhidharma is totally uncompromising and says, So the emperor doesn't get it at all. And Bodhidharma sees that and just, he leaves. And he crosses the river and goes off to another province. And afterwards, Emperor Wu finds out who he was. He was the bearer of the Dharma, come from India. And he says, oh, we've got to get him back. Send a messenger. But his teacher knows better and says, You could send the whole country after him and he wouldn't come back.

[41:05]

You've missed it. So the question is, what about these guys who seem to miss it? It's not so clear. I mean, if you really appreciate seamlessness, we are they, they are us. And Emperor Wu has been faithfully, over the centuries, over many centuries, enlightening Zen students. in this story. He's given greatly. He's a great bodhisattva. And his daughter, one of his four children, became a disciple of bodhidharma and received the dharma transmission. That's how the legend goes. So something must have happened. And again, it's hard to talk about this, but it's something important to remember. It's not our personal realization that's necessarily the key.

[42:09]

From moment to moment, we may be clear or not so clear, but if our intention is there, certainly the emperor intended something in relation to Buddhism. He really cared. Maybe if he didn't get it in that moment, it's less important than the fact that he had this intention. that he was able to be part of this whole continuing saga of the transmission. And that's true for all of us. It's very easy to get caught up in wanting to make sure that we have the best understanding possible. And even people, particularly in some traditions, get into comparing their understanding with other people's. And there are many case koans. where people are in dharma combat and it looks a little bit like karate with the dharma, and it's a game in a way. But if you take it seriously and your ego gets involved in it, you can forget that your understanding from moment to moment isn't really all that important in the larger scheme of things.

[43:20]

In a way, it is. But in another way, you're part of a whole. And like the Buddha said, truly awakened, all beings are awakened simultaneously with me, because there's no separation. They may not get it yet, but I see that they're all enlightened. So I'm sure that Bodhidharma knew that the emperor was enlightened, whether he got it at that moment or not. I hope that addresses your question a little bit. Yeah, you're talking about seamlessness and non-separation and you also mentioned that after this week you don't particularly feel like going back to what you do. Yeah. So I'm wondering, I mean the phrase putting Humpty Dumpty back together again leaps to mind. Uh-huh. You know, how you have in the past or how you think you will put those two things back together.

[44:27]

feeling that you don't really want to go on with chaos theory or social science research, and also feeling the seamlessness? What it says to me is, you're very right, you're very precise. What it says to me is it doesn't really matter what I choose, or what happens. What matters is the spirit in which it's done. That is to say, I haven't I haven't betrayed the Dharma if I decide to go on with the research, and I'm no special hero if I just go on with my sitting. The point is to really work with my life from the point of view of non-separation, and to keep on sitting with that, no matter what I happen to be doing from time to time. Does that help? Does that address it at all? And what I did was expose my tendency to make separations.

[45:34]

Humpty Dumpty is quite whole, but because I make distinctions, he seems to be in pieces. It's my problem. It's not because there's anything wrong with the work I was doing. It's because of how I perceive it or how I experience it. At least that's how I see it at this moment. And I think it's perfectly possible to do the work that I see in front of me to do it. It may actually be of some help to people. Who knows? But I sure know that it's going to be miserable for me if I do it in the spirit of ambition and separation. It's not going to be any fun. if I can maintain a kind of balance and see it as part of a whole, which includes continuing dedication to the Dharma and to sitting practice, then I think it will be fine.

[46:36]

Thank you for helping me to answer my own question. If we come a little bit back to to the same problem of translation, whether it's a tomb or a monument, I would suggest yet another interpretation, that if the tomb is something that encases the body, that what is a seamless tomb but the whole world enclosing all of us and the teaching? Well said. We need to end now.

[47:27]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ