Good morning. So, I graduated from high school in 1947. And then I went on active duty with the Marines, and then I got out in 1949 and went to art school in Los Angeles, and then I came to San Francisco and went to art school at what was then called the California School of Fine Art, which is now called the Art Institute. Can you hear me okay? No. So, at that time, well, in San Francisco, on the coast, East Coast and West Coast, the

[01:14]

atmosphere in the art world was that the bohemian flavor, people who are associated with the arts, not in the high class, but in the lower class, were called bohemians. Bohemians. So, I kind of came from the last of the bohemians, the last of the bohemians, the end of the bohemian era, which segued into the beat era. And then came the flower children and the hippies and the exes and ABCs or whatever they are called now. So, my era was the beat era.

[02:14]

This was in San Francisco, in North Beach, mostly. The beat era was the era of people who, young people, who were dissatisfied, to say the least, with materialism, because the culture becomes so materialistic and the arts have become stiff and unimaginative. So, I kind of grew up, my second growth after my adult growth was in North Beach and the mission, of course, San Francisco. And so, I became interested in Zen. I was interested in a lot of different things, but, and spiritual activities.

[03:23]

But someone finally took me to the Zen Center and I became a Zen Center student and studied with Suzuki Hiroshi for seven years, and then came to, during that time, started the Berkeley Zen Center. So, what I want to talk about is various stages of practice. That's the kind of introduction to the various stages of practice. So, in 1958, Alan Watts wrote a short treatise essay called Beat Zen, Square Zen, and Zen. I don't know if you remember that, but it was a very interesting essay. Beat Zen was considered like the Zen of Kerouac and Alan, and Gary Snyder, they were representatives.

[04:40]

Alan, Ginsburg, yeah, Ginsburg. And Kerouac were considered the epitome of Beat Zen because they wrote a lot about Zen and they really had ideas about Zen. But their Zen was kind of based more on the Chinese hermits or the Chinese non-traditionalists. And a year later, in 59, Suzuki Hiroshi came to America and he introduced Square Zen. Square Zen was like Zen with form. Form, formal Zen, Zen that has a form that you can recognize.

[05:44]

So, a lot of the people who had been interested in Beat Zen kind of were drawn to Square Zen. So, there was a lot of what seemed like either you're in one camp or the other. You're either a Beat Zenist, which means like, you know, you just do what you want, and you find your freedom doing whatever you want, basically. And you're free of restraints. Square Zen means restrained Zen, in the corral, you know. There's a very famous saying of Suzuki Hiroshi, to give your cow a wide field and watch the cow.

[06:54]

You don't forget the cow, but you're very aware of the cow in the field. But that's a one-sided understanding. If you are attached to that understanding, it's a mistake. That's quoted a lot by people, give your cow a wide field. If you want to have a lot of freedom, you say, yeah, Suzuki Hiroshi says, give your cow a big wide field and watch the cow. But also, at night, you bring the cow in, into the corral, because the corral also needs restraint and restriction. And for Square Zen, practicing within the restriction is practice, is where you find your freedom.

[07:55]

Suzuki Hiroshi is always talking about, you think that whatever you want to do is where you find your freedom. But that's not where you find your freedom. You find your freedom within the restriction. And so, we understood from Square Zen, that you find the greatest freedom within the greatest restriction. So, one of the problems with Beat Zen, you know, we were the beat generation, beat, you know, and it's true, we were really beat. It was the jazz era, the dope era. Of course, it's all expanded now. But at that time, it was a new thing.

[08:56]

So, there's some competition, you know, between Square Zen and Beat Zen. But actually, Beat Zen is the prelude to Square Zen. There's three, how do you get to Zen? That's the point, you know. Beat Zen, Square Zen, well, how do you get to the real Zen? Which one is true? Which one is the right path? So, in my view, there are many views. I looked up these three on the internet, just before giving my talk. And there are many, huh? Texted, yeah. So, there are many views about what the meaning is. But my view is that there are three stages. It's not one is right and one is wrong,

[10:00]

or one is better and one is worse. It's, we start with, Beat Zen, quote unquote, can mean whatever you want it to mean. It just means pre-Zen, Zen. Zen before you know what you're doing, actually, you know. It's the yearning for something, and you hear about Zen. Zen is just Buddhism, you know. I remember Suzuki Roshi walking up to me one day and saying, Zen is just Buddhism. And then Katagiri later walked up to me and said, you know, Zen is just Buddhism. They must have been talking about it between themselves. And they wanted us to make sure. Dogen didn't like to use the word Zen, you know. Using the word Zen, you should wash your mouth out. It's just Buddhadharma.

[11:02]

There are many ways to practice Buddhadharma. There are 12 schools of Buddhism. There used to be 25, but they were reduced to 12. So, Zen is just our way of practicing Buddhism. It's not, there's no special sutra, no special teaching. It's just Buddhist practice. That's what we say about Zen. It's just Buddhist practice. We can use any of the practices of Zen, of Buddhism, and apply it to, or practice any of those practices as Zen. Pure land, we can practice that as Zen. What is the Zen of pure land? That's a good koan. And there are many overlaps. It's just that there are 12 different perspectives on how to practice.

[12:04]

And Zen is one way to practice. It's just that true practice includes, has to be based on non-duality. So, unless you understand that, you can practice any kind of Buddhism you want, but if it's not based on non-duality, we say it's not true Buddhism, not the true Dharma. So, unless you have some experience of that, your practice is not complete. So, beat Zen is like our desire to practice

[13:06]

and doing what we can before we actually step into square Zen. Doing whatever you want is one way of practice. When you enter into square practice, you let go of everything. So, it's called renunciation practice. It's like the hothouse of practice. You have to let go of everything. You have to go through the small door in order to truly enter square Zen. Square means, you know, it's even on all sides. I really like to have a square. It's a square Zendo, really. Most Zendos have a kind of squarishness to where there's no, should be, no side is any longer or shorter than any other side.

[14:11]

So, it's equality, total equality. If you really sincerely practice, it takes everything away from you and leaves you with nothing. So, square Zen, beat Zen, square Zen, and Zen. The outcome should be Zen, true Zen, which is neither round nor square, nor beat, nor anything else. So, you know, there's this saying in Zen. We've probably all heard that. In the beginning, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers. Water is water. Earth is solid. Water is wet.

[15:14]

And then when we enter into, when we enter into the square Zen of equality, mountains are not mountains, rivers are not rivers. We don't know what anything is anymore. And then when we have matured, we let go and enter into mountains and mountains, rivers and rivers, but with a difference. So, all three are, both of square and round and beat are both necessary, actually, because those two sides enrich each other. So, the result is we enter the world again with bliss-bestowing hands, as they say.

[16:18]

And I know there are a lot of people who criticize square Zen. But I have to say that when Suzuki Roshi was around, square Zen became very popular. All of us hippies cleaned ourselves up and started shaving and combing our hair again. No, cutting our hair off. Back in the Midwest, though, people were still putting Vaseline on their hair. I used to put Vaseline on my hair to make it, because I had this black hair, you know, and it was sticking out all over the place. And I put Vaseline on it, you know. And then I parted it. Back in the Midwest, people were still parting their hair and combing it. So, this is stages of practice.

[17:26]

And I think it's unusual for somebody to come to Zen unless they just stumble on it, without some idea about what it is. But I had read D.T. Suzuki and Alan Watts. Alan Watts was very interesting. He was an English intellectual. So, Alan Watts and D.T. Suzuki popularized Zen in America in the 50s and 60s, but mostly the 50s. And he gave a radio program on KPFA every Sunday. And his lectures are very interesting, I have to say. Then they influenced a whole society of beats in those days, in the 50s. I remember in the 50s, everybody I knew would turn in on his

[18:28]

radio program. And he had this voice that was just kind of expansive and contracted, monotone. But nobody really knew what Zen was. And I kind of followed Alan Watts' understanding, trying to feel like they knew what Zen was, but there was no such thing as practice. And I didn't know that there was a practice. Nobody knew that, that there was actually a practice. Some people did, but being naive, I didn't. And somebody just took me one day to Sokochi. So, I think I stumbled on it, but it was an inevitable stumble. It was not an accident. And then, when Suzuki Roshi came,

[19:32]

the practice of Zen started. He was really the first one. There were others that followed him from Japan, China. Well, Southeast Asia, but a few years later. But his introduction to practice was really the first practice. There have been some, a few other priests in the, well, before the war and after the war. Niyogen Sensaki, who was in the Bay Area, San Francisco, and around. He had a number of people, you know, who sat with him, mostly women, but they all sat in chairs. He said that he didn't think,

[20:35]

it may not be appropriate for Americans to sit cross-legged because, you know, they're not used to sitting on the floor. But that was the extent of his practice with people, that they would sit on chairs, kind of like an auditorium sort of thing. He was really good, though. And Sokeon Sensaki in New York. But when Suzuki Roshi came, everybody just sat. You know, this is what we do. We sit on a cushion, cross our legs, and he taught us how to sit south. And he didn't think you have to sit, you can only sit in a chair. He taught us that we could do whatever he taught us. And so he didn't. And he taught us how to sit sashins, which were terribly painful.

[21:39]

It's easier for people to do this now, since so many people have done it. But when you don't have precedence, you're kind of a pioneer, and there's just something about the fact that you know the people, and you see everybody doing this, that you can do it. And it just made everything easier the more people participated. But back in the old days, it was really hard to sit. We went through a lot of struggles, and nobody sat in a chair. And we all were barefoot. We didn't wear socks. And just the way it was. We just all accepted that. When you start easing off on things, that's when things start degenerating. It's really hard to maintain a standard. Very hard to maintain a standard. At the same time, to be flexible.

[22:41]

Maintaining a standard, and at the same time, remaining flexible and understanding of where people are. And that everybody can't do what you, the ideal. And that there is a way for anybody to do this practice, if you know how to figure it out. So, that's really important. I remember in Japan, there are certain temples where everybody has to sit in full lotus. This is what Edo, in New York, he made everybody sit in full lotus, and everybody left. So, it's hard to maintain a standard, and at the same time, have flexibility. But that's the trick. That's the trick, is to maintain the flexibility that each person has, their own individual practice.

[23:43]

It's not group practice, even though we all practice together. That's the other thing about Square Zen, is that we all practice together in order to understand. We gain our understanding through association. Some understanding we get through lecture, but mostly through association with each other, and encouragement from each other. It's really important. So, I remember, back in the, we started Tassahara, 1967. 1970, we started in 67, but there wasn't so much discipline,

[24:46]

because it was just, you know, out in the country, in this former resort, and putting together something called a monastery. Suzuki Roshi was not so well, so he couldn't come down so much. And Katagiri kind of came down, but for a lot of the time we were on our own. And we didn't know what we were doing exactly, but we did it. So, this is the time when there were a lot of communes. This was the commune era. The Beats wanted to associate with each other, and actually do something positive, right? But it was all based on love, mostly. And love doesn't do it. Because love

[25:46]

needs discipline. People thought, we want love, but we don't want discipline. That was one of the primary desires of that era. We want the love, but we don't want the discipline. So, it's all just kind of free love, and it doesn't hold things. Even though love holds everything together, it needs discipline to actually work. Love needs discipline. So, that combination was not there. But people, many people were drawn to the communes, which were wonderful, but they didn't last. Some did, but mostly they didn't last. Because they didn't know what really, they wanted to grow food and all that. Great desires to do things, but without the discipline. So, or the how to actually make things work.

[26:51]

So, Tatsahara, we invited Tatsagami Roshi to come, and Suzuki Roshi invited him to come to set up the monastic discipline. And a lot of the people that were there, Tatsahara, because a lot of hippies came, a lot of Bohemians, hippies, and when he set up the monastic practice, a lot of people said, this is like little Aheiji, little Aheiji monastery, like Japanese practice. And we said, yes. And they left. So, this sorted out the, sorted the communalists out from the monastics. And Tatsahara has continued, even though

[27:54]

there have been many tragedies, some deep tragedies, but it maintained itself when the first American abbot disgraced himself. Tatsahara, Zen Center was falling apart after that. It really fell apart. And Tatsahara maintained itself because of the schedule. The schedule didn't care how everybody felt. It just kept going. That was the discipline. Because in the monastic practice, the discipline is what makes everything work. And it doesn't care how you feel. That's how you learn something about how

[28:56]

things work. The discipline allowed everything. The schedule still kept going. And if you wanted to join the schedule, okay, if you didn't want to, you could leave or whatever. And then the schedule gradually helped to make everything work again. So squares in is to come back to that, is the discipline that makes things work. And the discipline is what causes you to have pain and suffering. And it also allows you to have your freedom from pain and suffering. It's how you actually find your freedom within pain and suffering. And how you free yourself from it. Which doesn't mean that you don't have it. It means that you find your freedom within the pain. You find freedom within the suffering. You're not bound by

[29:58]

pain within pain. You're not bound by suffering within suffering. Hmm. And that's Zen. Neither square nor beat. It's that you find your freedom without... Nothing can overturn you. So do you have any questions? Charles. Thanks so much. Tremendous historical retrospect. I'm wondering, however, if the discipline you learned in the Marine Corps and the discipline you learned in art school carried over and sort of primed your pump

[30:59]

for Zen. I think so. Yeah. You know, when you're in the service you're thrown into a society of people from all over. And you have to learn how to get along with everybody. That's how you grow up. I think the service is really good for people. I mean, it has that good side. The good side is that you learn how to harmonize with people. But in art school, I had a really good teacher, Clifford Still, who was really one of the great American artists of the 20th century, was my teacher. And he never criticized

[32:01]

anything. He would come during the studio days when we would be painting, all the students would be painting together. He'd just come in and start talking, but he never talked about your work. He never gave you a compliment or a criticism. You have to find your and feel confident about your work by yourself. You have to find your own reasons for doing what you're doing. It wasn't like a drawing class where you have a model and all that. There was nothing. You just have to draw, bring up. I'm not saying that the other way is not right,

[33:03]

but you had to draw up from yourself your own work. And sometimes you had the inspiration, sometimes you didn't. But it became painting became a way of life. People say, can you paint now? Can you do something? I can't. No, because this practice is my way of life. I changed that over from painting as a way of life. Because when you're painting what I was doing as a way of life means that's where your mind is, that's where your whole person is. And you're doing it all the time. Zen is the same thing. 24 hours a day is your Zen practice. And when you're a painter, 24 hours a day is your painting practice. So, just to make some little drawing is fine,

[34:05]

but it's not really. It's amusing. When we talk about this sangha, one of the favorite things we talk about is how we do things together. It's one of the emphasis and one of the beautiful things that we find here. And we have everybody sitting in all kinds of different ways, chairs and everything. And the question you were saying, we find our freedom in suffering. How do we get enough suffering or how do we check in with our practice if we're choosing ways that enable us to be here, but at the same time aren't hurting our knees like full lotus does or bringing up those standard physical challenges? Yes. Okay. We don't sit in order to have pain. That's not why we do it. It just so happens that

[35:07]

life is accompanied by pain. You know, we live in this little cloud of nirvana called Berkeley. But other people all around the world are suffering like crazy. And sometimes it's hard to maintain or believe that because we go about our business every day, the traffic goes smoothly. I mean, you know. I mean, we have two of the greatest grocery stores in the world. You know. I mean, we live in paradise here. It's the cornucopia of the world. And we complain anyway. Think of all these people who have nothing. I think about these people who are bombed day after day. Where do they get their food? Where do they go to the

[36:09]

bathroom? It's like life is suffering. Believe me. So because we don't experience it the same way, we think we're okay. But even so, you know, suffering, the rich suffer and the poor suffer. You know. And sometimes the poor don't suffer as much as the rich. The rich just don't know they're suffering. And that's a big part of, you know, there's a school of Buddhism that says suffering is just constant. We just don't know that that's happening. And I think that there's something to that. Would you say we come here to meet our personal suffering or what is it? No, we come here to let go of our person. We let go of our person. Yeah. Personal suffering, you know. I remember

[37:12]

Suzuki Roshi saying one time in Sashin, he said, you know, you people are having a lot of pain, difficulty and you want to have some peaceful, blissful practice. He said, but how can we do that when there's so many people around us suffering? How can you choose to make yourself, give yourself that privilege of being free from having the difficulties when there's so many people around us suffering? So enjoy your suffering. He didn't say that, but yeah, how do you find joy within suffering? That's our non-dual Zen practice. Let's see, I have trouble remembering names. Linda. When you said

[38:14]

Zen is just Buddhism and doesn't have any, you said Zen is just Buddhism and doesn't have any special sutra, it reminded me of something that came up in the way that this Zen Center does its rituals. For a long time, the meal chant enumerable labors and so on didn't have the line that one day crept into it to my, as usual, irritation. Homage to the Sanarva Putnarika whatever sutra. And I just want to know every time I have to say that I want to know why did they put a special sutra in there, like a Bible or something? Sutras are not Bibles. I know, but why did we stick it in our meal chant? I didn't stick it in there. It's just the way it came to us.

[39:16]

The Sanarva Putnarika sutra explains or reiterates why a Buddha appears in the world. So it's not that we avoid sutras. We don't avoid sutras. It's just that we don't have any, there's no sutra that is our special. The Sanarva Putnarika sutra was what's his name in Japan Nichiren? Nichiren's sutra. He said

[40:17]

if you simply recite the name of the Namo Renge Kyo sutra sutra that would be your focus for your practice. We don't say that. We just honor that sutra which Dogen really liked a lot is a kind of representative of all the sutras. So we're honoring the sutras. We don't ignore the sutras. It's just that we don't have a special sutra that is the sutra that we do chant every day. It's the heart sutra. So Prajnaparamita, the sutra of non-duality. We're constantly reminded that our practice is the practice of non-duality and also duality. But non-duality

[41:18]

within duality. So that's the sutra that we honor the most. But it's complex. I don't neither feel affinity or non-affinity with the Sadharma Pundarika sutra. It's fine to chant it. What's wrong with it? There's nothing wrong with it. And it points us to, we honor it. the Sadharma Pundarika sutra is Zazen is a sutra. Washing the dishes is a sutra. We could just say homage to washing the dishes. Homage to sweeping the floor. Homage to the Sadharma Pundarika sutra. Homage to Linda.

[42:18]

Thank you. That nicely leads into my question, which is it's been said that you offer monastic training here though people don't actually know that that's happening. Could you say a little bit about... We don't offer it here. This is not monastic training. This is a combination. I want to say it's not monastic and it's not lay. Although lay people participate here, priests participate here. It has a monastic flavor but it's not monastic practice. Because I constructed the practice kind of based on monastic. We have Oryoki this morning. That's monastic practice. We sit Zazen every day, twice a day. That's monastic practice.

[43:27]

You go to work in the daytime unless you're retired. You go to work in the daytime and then you have the possibility of sitting twice a day in Zendo with everybody. Whether you take that up or not is up to you. So it's not really a monastic practice but it's a monastic overtone. It's a monastic... But it's also a lay practice. It's a lay monastic... I don't want to say what it is. It has various elements. When you said we could say homage to washing the dishes, that is something that you would... You could imagine that conversation in a monastery because that's kind of the focus of taking care of what's in front of you. Whereas in the so-called lay world or the secular world... It is the same thing but it's not seen the same way. Well, it depends on who's seeing. Some see it and some don't.

[44:31]

Right. So I think with the person who made this comment about this training or this energy here is that it's there for you if you want to... It's there for you if you want it. Yes. That's exactly right. The reminders that are offered are sometimes very subtle and are not... Yes. Yes. That's true. It's there for you if you want it. You can... And if you say you're retired and you're... You can... There's fine ways to practice here during the day. Yes. Thank you for taking us back to the 50s. Taking us back to the 50s because I wasn't there. You mentioned renunciation. Now, every time I hear renunciation I know it's letting go. The part of me that is curious about what renunciation is

[45:32]

is that it's happening and then it scares me at the same time. So for you, coming from deep Zen to square Zen, how did you know that you needed to go all the way through with it? How did I know that? How did you know you needed to go all the way through with square Zen and still be with your ego? Right. So after I sat for a few times because I had been looking for a practice and I tried several things. And as soon as I started to practice, as soon as I sat down and looked at the wall and Tsuki Roshi adjusted me and so forth, I'd come back a few times again and I realized this is... I was 35. I said, if I don't do this now, in the next cycle

[46:33]

or whatever that is, I'd have to wait until then. I didn't want to do that. I have to do this now. And so that really motivated me because I needed the discipline. I needed the discipline. I got off on all kinds of ecstasies. Just, you know, with pot and reading and inspiration and all that. But I needed the discipline. And so I said, if I don't do this now, I don't know what will happen. But... Yes? I appreciate the master whatever it is because it's a part of you that most of what I went to monastery that... Exactly. So my intention here was for the lay people and

[47:36]

to have a real discipline practice that lay people could, without leaving, without leaving home, could actually participate in. That was my... And it still is. Except that now we have more... Things change, right? We have priest practicing. I like for priests to spend time in the monastic, in the monastery, because it's a great practice for priests but also for lay people. And so many people here have done all that. But if you... You don't have to do that. But you get some flavor. It's just possible to get some flavor of that practice by practicing here. Yeah. But you have to do it. Without doing it, you don't get the flavor. Does

[48:43]

does Beets Zen espouse ideas... Does Beets Zen espouse ideas that create obstacles to actually answer Square Zen? Oh, I see. If you have some ideas about Beets Zen... The idea is that Beets Zen is espousing, right? So Alan Watts and other folks, right? Are they saying things that... Say I listen to them on the radio, right? Yes. And so then I try to go to Square Zen. Are there certain things, ideas that they're espousing that will actually make my ability to get into Square Zen more difficult? Oh, I don't know. I can't say. You know, Alan Watts was an intellectual. So he doesn't have no... I have a feeling that he was not espousing Square Zen. He just said this is this and that's that. That's all. He wasn't... Didn't say you should do one thing

[49:44]

or another. He was simply a mouthpiece. He had no practice at all. I never thought too much of him because although he did inspire a lot of people, he had no practice of his own. And then he would take people to on a tour of Japan, monasteries or something. But he was doing a lot of cocaine. I know a lot of people that say are beat Zen folks and then they try to enter the Square Zen and they reject it. Well, that's because they don't like the discipline. Yeah. It has nothing to do with Alan Watts. Yeah, it's just that they don't want to give up their freedom. You have to check in

[50:46]

your guns at the door. Well, you don't. I remember back in the 60s when we were practicing, there were a lot of artists who came and nobody said you had to give up your painting. Although, if you actually give yourself over to the practice, you let go of all that. And then later when your practice has matured, you take it up again. That's the three stages. You're a painter. That's the beat Zen, you're a painter. And then you step into the practice as a full-time and then that's the square.

[51:47]

And then when you mature, you're a painter again. But you stop all of this stuff. But here, you can't do that. Everybody has their families. So this is the kind of Zen that I don't like to define. It's undefined. And everyone has to define their own practice. We don't say you have to do this, you have to do that. It's all voluntary. So that's the uniqueness about this kind of practice. It's voluntary and you're encouraged and you have all the opportunities. You could sit six days a week. Twice a day in the weekdays and Saturday morning. That's pretty good, matter of fact. And then we have Sashin. It's a pretty full practice. And we have classes and we have all kinds of things.

[52:49]

If you want to do that. So you can do it. Or whatever you decide. Some people are not ready to do that. Some people can't do that. Some people are just peeking their nose in the door or their foot. So it's just up to each person. And everybody benefits in some way. If there is such a thing as benefit. I keep a couple of hands. Yes? You mentioned non-duality as central to the practice. Yes. Could you talk a little bit about that? Well, everything has its opposite. Good and bad.

[53:52]

Right and wrong. This is duality. But at the same time everything is one. So this is the koan of our life. Although we are all the same, we are all different. Each one of us is an individual and each one of us doesn't even exist as a person. Life and death. You know, to speak of life and death, I talk about birth and death. Because both birth and death are movement. Whereas life itself is still. And contains both birth and death. Birth and death are duality. But life itself is not. They are both aspects

[54:53]

of life. Death is an aspect of life. If life doesn't include death and death doesn't include life, if it's not a a conundrum, it's not truth. So, life itself is our koan of duality and non-duality. The dual exists within the oneness and the oneness exists. The duality of oneness and the oneness of duality. Everything is like that. You talk about a truth but that truth also has an opposite side. Every truth has an opposite side. Every reality has an opposite side. Every unreality has an opposite side. Every falsehood has an opposite side. but there's a oneness

[55:54]

to every duality. And that's called truth. Okay, Judy, you're the last one. I think it's Judy. Yes. Not a long question, please. You've got to speak a lot louder because... that word, a lot of different meanings and spins and so on, so it can be problematic. You talked about deep connection. What connection? Deep connection. Deep. Deep. Okay. As an alternative to using the word love just to see what might

[56:56]

come up with it. And I was just wondering how might you define deep discipline? Because discipline itself, like love, can have a lot of different spins and bring up a lot of things. How would you view say, deep discipline in terms of this dual, non-dual and the importance of discipline in life? Well, discipline has many aspects. And sometimes it doesn't look like discipline. Sometimes we think of discipline as a kind of rigidity. But a true discipline means flexibility. So I would say in our practice, discipline means to be flexible. To be totally flexible.

[57:57]

Totally flexible. To be careful about when you start getting uptight. Tight. You know. Rigid. reflex. Be elastic. Be flexible. I think flexibility is flexibility is strength. We think of strength as rigidity. But actually strength is flexibility. Because it has nothing to do with I don't say nothing to do, but it allows us to flow with life. So Zazen

[59:04]

looks stiff. Looks like rigid and all that. But actually to find the flexibility to be totally flexible within the upright position of Zazen is how you find your ease in life. That's what I would call discipline. So that's that's what the beat Zazen is looking for. And that's what the square Zazen is teaching us. But it looks the opposite. It looks like very stiff. It looks like discipline being

[60:05]

very stiff. But discipline means flexibility.

[60:09]

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