I vow to teach the truth and vow to talk it to the spirits. Good morning. Looks like we were going to have a kids' talk this morning, but kids have been cancelled. So if anybody wants to sit down here. If you feel crowded and want to sit down there, it's okay. Today I'm going to talk about case number 75 in the Blue Cliff Record. This case It's called Ukyo's Unfair Blows.

[01:06]

So Ngo introduces the subject and he gives us a kind of pointer. Master Ukyo says, the sacred sword is ever in hand. It is death dealing and life giving. It is there, it is here, simultaneously giving and taking. If you want to hold fast, you are free to hold fast. If you want to let go, you are free to let go. Tell me, how will it be when one makes no distinction between host and guest and is indifferent to which role one takes up? And then he says, see the following. I'll come back and explain that. And then the main subject. A monk came from Joshu Osho's assembly to Ukyu, who said to him, what do you find in Joshu's teaching?

[02:22]

Is there anything different from what you find here? The monk said, nothing different. Ukyu said, if there's nothing different, why don't you go back there? He hit him with his stick. The monk said, if your stick had eyes to see, you would not strike me like that. Ukyu said, today I have come across a monk. And he gave him three more blows. The monk went out. Ukyu called after him and said, one may receive unfair blows. The monk turned back and said, to my regret, the stick is in your hand. Ukyu said, if you need it, I will let you have it. The monk went up to Ukyu, took the stick out of his hand and gave him three blows with it.

[03:23]

Ukyu said, unfair blows, unfair blows. The monk said, one may receive them. Ukyu said, I hit this one too casually. The monk made vows. Ukyu said, Osho, is that how you take leave? The monk laughed aloud and went out. Ukyu said, that's it, that's it. Then Master Setso has a verse which kind of sums up the case. And he says, easy to call the snakes, hard to scatter them. How splendidly they crossed swords. Although the sea is deep, it can be drained. The Kalpa stone is hard, but it wears away. Old Ukyu, old Ukyu, who is there like you? To give the stick to another, that was truly thoughtless. So back to the introduction, Engo says, the sacred sword is ever in hand.

[04:38]

It is death dealing and life giving. Often in these cases, the sword is brought up in the introduction. It's sometimes called the bakuyu sword. I think the last time I talked about a case, it had a very similar introduction. Did you ever see this movie, Chinese movie, called Leaping Tiger or Crouching Tiger, something, dragon? Yeah, well, and it's all about this sword, this mythical, famous sword. a Chinese sword that everybody was trying to get their hands on. And so in these cases, these Kwan cases, there's so much mythology, Chinese mythology mixed up in them and alluded to.

[05:40]

And so, in this case, the introduction, he's talking about the sword. And the sword actually is kind of also Manjushri's sword, which cuts through delusions or illusory understanding. So it's the sword of truth, right? Knowledge and power. So he says, the sacred sword is ever in hand. It is death dealing and life giving. Ever in hand means you have this, whether you know it or not. Everyone has this, whether they know it or not. So how do we know that we have this and how do we use it? It can be very dangerous in that it takes or it can be very life-giving, depending on how it's used.

[06:46]

And in the hands of a master, it's used both ways. Death dealing and life-giving. Death dealing means taking your ego. Life-giving means bringing you back to real life, true life. So it is there, it is here, simultaneously giving and taking. So there's something called holding fast and letting go, giving and taking. Holding fast is like taking and letting go is like giving. Or it can be the other way around actually. So if you want to hold fast, you're free to hold fast.

[07:48]

If you want to let go, you're free to let go. Tell me, how will it be when one makes no distinction between host and guest, and is indifferent to which role one takes up? So host and guest has several meanings. It can mean the absolute and the relative. Absolute is the host, and relative is the person. Host meaning Buddha nature, big mind, the absolute. And so when one makes no distinction between host and guest on that level is one level, between myself and my true nature, right? So that also refers to teacher and student. So in ancient China, the teacher is the host and the student is the guest.

[08:52]

Tozan uses these terms when he talks about the five ranks, the host and the guest, the absolute and the relative. So here it's about the teacher and the student. So he says, tell me how will it be when one makes no distinction between host and guest role one takes up. So the teacher is this teacher and the student is the student, but sometimes the student is the teacher. Sometimes the teacher is the student. Suzuki Roshi used to say, sometimes the teacher is the student, sometimes the student is the teacher. But even though that is so, the teacher is always the teacher and the student is always the student. But they change places back and forth. a good teacher and a good student can change places back and forth without distinction, without creating a problem.

[10:02]

So, the main subject. came from Joshu Osho's assembly to Ukyu. Now, this Joshu is not the same Joshu that we're very familiar with. This is a different Joshu. This Joshu, you know the story of the sixth ancestor, Huinheng, and the southern school and the northern school making a split. So the Northern School is a school of sudden enlightenment, and the Northern School was a school of gradual enlightenment, so-called, but actually there was not much difference between the two. The students just made a big to-do about, which was best. But there was this problem in Tang Dynasty in the ninth century.

[11:10]

So this monk, whose name was also Joshu, came from Shinshu's assembly, and Ukyu came from the southern school. So here's this northerner coming to this southern teacher. So the monk came from Joshu, Oshu's And so Ukyu said to him, what do you find in Joshu's teaching? Is there anything different from what you find here? So in other words, he's kind of challenging him to say if there's anything different between the Northern school and the Southern school, basically. This is the same kind of, thing, problem, or that was discussed by Sekito in the Sandokai.

[12:13]

So the monk said, there's nothing different. It's a pretty good answer, an unusual answer, because everybody thought that it was something different. So he said, there's nothing different. And Yukyu said, well, if there's nothing different, why don't you go back there? So then he hit him with a stick. So this is holding fast. This is taking everything away from the monk. The monk has to find his way with everything taken away. The monk said, if your stick had eyes to see, you would not strike me like that. And Ukyu said, today I've come across a monk. In other words, he's saying, I've come across somebody who is worthy of being a monk. In other words, he's giving him an answer.

[13:16]

He's giving him a response. He's standing up to the teacher and giving him a good response. So you say, oh, this is somebody that's worth having a dialogue with. So that's granting. That's letting go. Ukyu said. And then he gave him three more blows. Those were blows of recognition. The first blow was a blow of admonishment. The other three blows were blows of recognition. Do you see the difference? It's quite different. So the blow is just a blow, right? The stick is blind.

[14:16]

And it's simply, sometimes the stick will be complimentary and sometimes the stick will be admonishment. When Suzuki Roshi, we don't use the stick much anymore, but the teacher, Suzuki Roshi, used to use his stick all the time, and sometimes with admonishment, and sometimes as a compliment. How wonderful, bam, bam, bam. Thank you, thank you. So, today I have come across a monk, and he gave him three more blows of acknowledgement, and the monk went out. So Ukyu, when the monk went out, called after him, and he said, one may receive unfair blows. And the monk turned back and said, to my regret, the stick is in your hand.

[15:24]

In other words, you can say anything you want, but you've got the stick. And Ukyu said, well, if you need it, I'll let you have it. So the monk turned around and took the stick and gave Ukyu three blows. So who's in control? They're going back and forth. First one is in control, then the other one's in control. One is taking the leadership, then the other's taking the leadership. And so Ukyu said, unfair blows, unfair blows, you're hitting the teacher. The monk said, one may receive them. That's not a very good translation. Like, it's good to receive them. Ukyu said, I hit this one too casually.

[16:27]

So in other words, he's saying, I didn't give him a strong enough blow because he's being too assertive, but he's actually complimenting him for being assertive. I hit this one too casually, but he really meant it. He's wonderfully taking the initiative. So the monk made vows. In other words, in the end he just bowed to the teacher, right? So it looks good, but it's a little bit weak. So Okyu said, Osho, is that how you take leave? He called him Osho, meaning priest. So it's kind of complimentary. So is that the way you take leave, just by bowing?

[17:27]

Let's finish this thing. You know, it's not over. And the monk laughed aloud and went out. And Enkyu said, that's it, that's it. Meaning, this thing just keeps going on forever. There's no end to this. So the monk just left. But the story goes on and on. So this is a very interesting story in Tang Dynasty China, or in Chinese Zen. using the stick was an acceptable way of teaching and of practicing. The blind staff has no eyes, but whoever's using it has the eyes of whoever's using it. So that's very interesting. It's neutral.

[18:28]

The staff actually is the sword. The baku you saw is actually Ukyu's staff, and whoever is using it has control. But control is like, you can say, well, who won this dialogue? Well, first it was Ukyu, then it was the monk, then it just kept going back and forth. And nobody wins. There's no winning and no losing. is simply bringing forth the Dharma in a very powerful way. I think in America we can't use the stick so much because somebody will get sued. Somebody will get sued eventually. But it was very effective teaching tool in China and in Japan as well.

[19:32]

So this is a dialogue that's free of ego, because no one is, although it looks like someone has the advantage and someone has the disadvantage, but they trade back and forth, advantage and disadvantage, so that they're actually stimulating each other. It's interesting, it's like competition. in a way like competition, but it's not a competition of I'm winning and you're losing. Sometimes it is, but it's more like bringing forth from each other something very deep. I think if you have a wrestling match or a boxing match, for this is male kind of activity, you know, It's kind of male activity. As the fight goes on, one brings more forth from the dialogue of the encounter, brings out something very deep in each one.

[20:55]

And they have to search for, spontaneously bring forth something to match the other one. The playful quality is serious and playful, serious and very playful. This is called the playfulness of samadhi, playful samadhi, where there's no difference between host and guest. In other words, the teacher has laid aside, he's not standing on his authority as a teacher, and so giving away the staff, he said, now okay I give you the staff and see what you can do with it.

[22:05]

So it's creating an equality based on their ability rather than on their position. That's the point of the story. And it has this playful quality, definitely. So Setjo's verse, he says, easy to call snakes and hard to scatter them. Well, you can start something It's easy to start something, but not so easy to finish it. So in this case, you know, Ukyu actually started something, and he had to see it all the way through and finish it, and he found out that he had a really dangerous snake on his hands. So that was... Ukyu's courageous calling up of the snake, and then he had to deal with it.

[23:10]

And so he says, how splendidly they crossed swords, their dialogue, their interaction. Although the sea is deep, it can be drained, and the Kalpa stone is hard but wears away. But so even though Even though the stone is deep, it can dry up. And even though the Kalpa stone is huge and hard, it eventually will be worn away. But ukyu's dharma will remain. That's the point. So old ukyu, old ukyu, who is there like you? To give the stick to another, that was truly thoughtless. So, truly thoughtless, of course, is a compliment. It means he didn't have any, he didn't protect himself.

[24:17]

He didn't have any calculated idea about it. He simply, okay, now it's your turn to have the stick. No calculation, just spontaneous letting go. This is actually a good way to win a battle, is to let go. No protection. Actually, this is the way the samurai in Japan studied with the Zen teachers. That's how they learned their attitude. It was simply how to not defend yourself and let go in order to win. So... I can remember

[26:17]

Suzuki Roshi going around the zendo and just simply hitting everyone equally in the morning during zazen. And sometimes as an admonition and sometimes as an encouragement. An example of that is at Page Street one time, I was supposed to be the wake-up person. And I got up an hour early. For some reason, the clock said, I thought the clock said four, and it said five, and it said four. And I started ringing the wake-up bell. And everybody started coming out of their rooms, you know, scratching their heads. And I said, hey, It's not five o'clock, it's four.

[27:20]

And Suzuki Roshi came out of his room and he said, get down to the zendo. He said, go down to the zendo. And so everybody went down to the zendo. And then he went down to the zendo and started hitting everybody. Whack, whack, whack, all the way around the zendo. And then he said, when the bell rings, you simply go down to the zendo. It doesn't matter what time it is. You respond to the bell, not to what you think is the right time. So that was an admonition for everyone. And then during zazen, he would come and you put your hands in gassho and he'd hit you. But it was very sweet. He always felt encouraged, his energy, sharing his energy with everyone to keep people awake and wake them up.

[28:28]

So that stick goes two ways. And I can remember somebody, one of his prize students, I loved him very much. Big ego. And I remember him hitting him. Ego, big ego. Bam, bam, bam. So, anybody want to start a fight? Okay. Are you asking for something? You made me fall on my face.

[29:46]

Richard? Well, it's a good question. What do you think? Yeah, well, first place, he comes from a place Usually there's no, at that time, in that circumstance, the northern and southern schools weren't communicating with each other. So it was unusual for this monk to come to begin with.

[30:56]

So he wanted to see what this monk was made of and why he was there. you come just, you know. In those days, they were more serious about why somebody would come or not come. You know, are you here just for the food? Which actually, often, people would become monks in order to get something to eat. Or visit a place, you know, Why are you here? And who are you? Why are you here and who are you? And what kind of dialogue are we going to have? So it just went that way. So it was kind of testing the monk.

[32:01]

well of difference, yes, so there's no formula. That's actually part of this whole thing, is that there's no formula, it just went the way it went. Everything is totally uncalculated and there's no, it was beyond all rules, there are no rules, simply response, an action and a response, an action and a response, action and response. So, why did you choose to get this box? Well, I gave it for the people that aren't here. You never know. But the reason I gave it because it just seemed very lively to me.

[33:09]

I wanted to talk about something that was kind of lively. And when I hit on this, it just seemed very lively to me. Peter? It's not like there's any rule here that you have to present this, or not, or whatever. Just to kind of say that is sort of a challenge, but he's not. There's some choice here, there's choice. Well, you can receive them or not. Right, and then UQ says, unfair, unfair. But actually, all is fair. Yes.

[34:11]

It's all fair, right? So how do you receive something, right? How do you give something? How do you receive it? Yes, that's... Ken? Well, it's just a glow. In what realm does admonition or appreciation exist? In what realm does admonition or appreciation what? Yeah, that's a good point. A thing is just what it is. Abomination is just abomination. Encouragement is just encouragement. And in the middle is, it is just what it is. So, Luke is saying, unfair blows, unfair blows.

[35:18]

It doesn't mean unfair, actually. It means, it's just kind of coy. It's kind of like, oh, you hit me unjustly. But it wasn't unjust, it was just, actually. So there's holding fast and letting go, and there's holding fast and letting go at the same time. That's very skillful, is holding fast and letting go at the same time. Well, that's kind of the nature of Why the stick?

[36:38]

If the point is—this has always bothered me, the stick. If the point is to wake up, then why not? And I realized that it happens too. That was good. But why the stick? Well, it's something physical between two people. It's also, it's just the way things evolved. Just the way things evolved. I just wanted to say something about that. It's really cultural embedded in it. Yeah, it's cultural. I remember the Baker saying things like, you couldn't admonish people verbally in Japanese monastic situations that you've experienced, but you could hit them.

[37:44]

Here, it's the opposite. You can admonish people verbally, but you can't hit them. Which is better? The latter. I remember, you know, in Japanese monastic life sometimes the teacher hits the person next to the person that they want to admonish. That's very common. And I remember one time I was sitting in somebody's seat that apparently had that seat. I didn't know it was their seat. And he said, that's not your seat. Your seat is here. This person's seat is there. And I think he hit me with a stick. But I had seen him hit somebody when he really was trying to teach this other person a lesson.

[38:49]

Kind of interesting, it's a whole kind of, the use of the stick has its own, what would you say, development of use, subtle development of use, that was developed in China and Japan. Most people, liked the stick. We used to use the stick a lot, all the time. Matter of fact, when Dick Baker was the abbot of the Zen Center, there was two people walking back and forth with a stick every Zazen period. And of course, you'd have to ask for it. But almost most people really liked it. Some people didn't, but most people did. Yeah, way in the back, I was thinking, like, when you're walking around, you're just living, and things happen.

[39:59]

And you have a choice, just like this guy had a choice of his interpretation of getting it. When things happen to you, they're like blows. I think that there's a point there, a good point, but I think also something can happen to you through intention, as well as non-intention. But the way you receive something makes all the difference. Your interpretation of what you're receiving makes all the difference.

[41:01]

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