Zazen is to bring these things, to become more awake in our various layered consciousnesses. And try to balance our sense of directing it always from waking consciousness. To repeatedly do zazen where you don't direct anything. And then you find a more subtle way than doing it from waking consciousness to explore your dreaming. Okay, so let's go to the first paragraph of the koan a little bit. And then we'll sit for a few minutes and go to lunch. But first, Christian, you had a question?

[01:17]

No, she said that we shouldn't try to understand everything with . But it's the only way to get access to something. It's very hard to understand. Okay. I think my example of the pillow was one example. My waking consciousness recognized that my hand picked it up for some reason, but I didn't interfere, I just let that lead me to where to sit.

[02:30]

So I think the general picture is in Buddhism is that you use intellectual consciousness to the extent that you can to create the general picture for yourself. And you do that from the point of view of developing a heuristic inferring consciousness. That can discover things. And then you simultaneously practice and with that intention your practice realizes that you don't do it with your thinking. Now, it says here, it describes this process, probing pole in hand, Probing pole is something that you try to explore something with.

[03:57]

And sometimes a way of catching fish. Sometimes they put grass at the end of the pole and then they put it down and the fish thinks it's a little piece of grass and comes up to it and you can catch it. And shadowing grass around him means you use grass to create a shadow on the water and you can see the fish then, because otherwise you can't see them because the light reflects off the surface. So, probing pole in hand, it is a description of, on the one hand, of using language to probe. Using language in such a way that like I don't see a pond or a dragon.

[05:02]

And then he says it's dark outside, he gives him a lantern, he blows it out. That's all language. Blowing out the lantern is also language. Standing still in attendance is language. So, and sometimes you make something, you use hardness and sometimes you use softness. Okay, now that's one way of looking at it and that's sort of using waking mind. If you use zazen mind and you understand this to be read through zazen, You recognize that zazen is the probing pole and going into zazen consciousness creates the shadowing grass you can see deep into yourself. From that point of view, you see that this stone is a kind of way of talking about our inner sense of identity in this moment, the exact physical, the precise physical act.

[06:36]

So if you take a koan like this and read it, you can read it first at an intellectual level. Then you can read it at a feeling, thinking level. Then you can go into zazen, because you're familiar with it, and it'll appear to you quite differently. That's reading it with zazen mind. And you'll recognize different things in the koan through feeling it in zazen.

[07:55]

Then you can also read it. If you're familiar with it and you have enough experience, you can then dream about the koan. You can say, I think there's certain problems in this koan I don't understand. I will see if I can dream the solutions or dream what's going on, and you do. So the creation or the recognition that there's a fourth mode awareness doesn't collapse the other modes. They now each exist separately with more separate dignity. Beside each other. They also merge with each other. And together work differently when they merge.

[08:56]

And they bring into a kind of functioning territory of being awareness as well as consciousness. I mean it's, like it says over here, Deshan hid his body with a reed shade, bringing forth shining eye mirrors. So let's sit for a few minutes and then we'll go to lunch. There's a natural tendency for us to confuse awareness with waking mind. And then the waking mind inevitably gets confused with I-ness or ego.

[10:14]

And the The result is a subtle but very strong direction toward waking. And what I'm trying to suggest is that you see waking as a wide, clear space. In the middle of a much greater field of being, a field of aliveness. So being isn't pushed into awakeness, but rather awakeness.

[11:39]

Being opens up from awakeness. And opens into awakeness. I asked Ulrike to write these three statements on the board. And you read them from where you are? Yes. The first is from the Sando Kai. The merging of difference and unity. That poem is one of the main documents that is practiced as part of transmission in my lineage.

[12:54]

And the second one is what Deshan said to Lungya, Dragon Pond, after realizing enlightenment. And the third is from our koan. Now, I think we are faced here with how much something like this in Zen is just practiced with those three statements. Their style of my lineage, our lineage And this koan brings them up.

[14:09]

And really there's not much we can do with it except see the three statements and keep them in mind. Now that doesn't leave much for a seminar. We can sit here and think about it till tomorrow afternoon. But I've decided to take one koan just in order as they come for a seminar. And present what comes up. And these statements, I don't, how do they make sense? Maybe you could read them in German, translate them. Yes, I can try to read it in German.

[15:27]

The spirit of the great Indian wise man is spread intimately between East and West. The abilities of people may be strong or weak, but on the way there are neither southern nor northern ancestors. And this may seem from our point of view something maybe not reachable. Nun, von unserer Sichtweise her ist das jetzt vielleicht nicht zugänglich. Because this isn't asking you really whether you're hanging out with a teacher or not.

[16:31]

Denn das stellt jetzt nicht wirklich die Frage ob man mit einem Lehrer zusammen ist oder nicht. Or what kind of teachers might be around. Oder was für Lehrer überhaupt vorhanden sind. but it's asking you what kind of mind you have. But it means you have to ask it, where have the sages since antiquity gone? This is the fundamental question we can say of Mahayana Buddhism. Now, but from the Buddhist point of view, this is a very, it tries to take the Lotus Sutra and the many worlds and Buddha's appearing out of eyebrows and so forth, and take it down to something that's within our reach.

[17:37]

But here, everything from Buddhism, from the Lotus Sutra to the Buddhas that appear in the eyebrows, does it all limit to something that is within our reach? So I'd like to at least present these to you and have you have some feeling about them and it takes some time to let them be inside you. The way they're inside you is in this sense of non-dreaming consciousness and waking and so forth.

[18:40]

Is there anything anybody would like to bring up from this morning? Julia? I have that In my experience, there are different periods of time when it's easy. It's not easy to talk about. I can practice and I can shift and I can experiment. I don't know, I feel well about it, I feel good about it. And when, it seems to be like a tide, seems to, when they come, periods where it's very, where the eye in the circle is very big.

[20:19]

And when with that kind of a stage, I feel, I don't know, There's no control, there's no choice, it seems to me. And even any motivation to practice comes out of the atma, out of any movement. So my question is, is it just like once you start practicing, you just sit on the train and you just... see what happens and you have no choice or no control, or is there a point where I can practice that kind of legacy there? I think you can say some of that, shorten it a little in German. My experience is that there are times when I can practice and that makes me happy and that works, but then there are also times when it doesn't work at all. And in those times there seems to be no control at all, no influence at all.

[21:26]

Yeah, basically you have to let a certain amount happen as this koan is trying to present in a kind of darkness. I was looking for something. Let's see if I can find it here. Hmm. Anyone else?

[22:37]

In Western thinking, the question or the search for meaning is very important. Is it the same for Buddhism or is it like the search for meaning only plays a role in the waking consciousness? Yeah, the search for meaning only plays a role in waking consciousness. And if I talk about that in any sort of specific way, I think I have to bring up these, what a couple people have asked me to talk about, which are the six domains of being. Which I may do, but I'd like us to be a bit more familiar with thinking about this sense of opening up zazen and opening up in the sense of recognizing that dream consciousness and sleeping consciousness, deep sleep, are present in the present situation.

[24:25]

And we don't collapse it into waking consciousness. So what I would like us to do is break up into maybe three or four groups and have some discussion of what we've talked about so far. Okay. Is there anything you'd like to bring to me from the discussion you've had?

[25:30]

Well, in our discussion we have Right now our group will try to get a handle to this fourth state of mind and how to approach it. Why are we doing this? Why are we even trying to? And so, when somebody asks me why do I do Zen or whatever, I usually answer that it gives me a very nice, definite set tomorrow.

[26:37]

And I usually do this too with my kids. Then we see my father. And so when we were talking about how to reach a state of awareness, it seemed to me like we could as well be people talking about LSD, you know, how nice it is to recover with, like trying to achieve Can you teach something for yourself? And so for me, I think sometimes, so what, why are we doing this?

[27:50]

So I feel the only reason for it could, could it not only be that it makes you open your heart to other people? Is that not the ultimate reason? Do you need a reason for that or should it be? As a feminist, what I stand, I've been thinking, maybe the end goal of all the things you do should be that you learn to open your heart to other people. And whether Buddhism is just one way or the other. Okay, thank you. Yes. I'd like to say maybe I'm doing something because I don't like how the perception of the world, the way how I see the world.

[29:00]

The other thing was maybe listed in our group, but he was talking about four states of mind. Did we have four? You guys lost the important one. Do you want to say in Deutsch what you should say? And I thought to myself, maybe that's why I'm doing this, because I don't feel too comfortable with the way I see the world or where I am. The other thing was that in our group we were always just made up of three spirits. And then suddenly there were many. Many words, big and small. Many words create a lot of clarity.

[30:07]

Well, that's optimistic. Yes? The first part was about how to I mean in seminaries and we hear a lot of teachings and we get a feeling for teachings and maybe understand them in the seminary. Not in the seminary, in the seminar. Seminary's at Crestone, the seminar's here. So we think, we understand, or get a glimpse of it, and then we get to the next thing.

[31:09]

being alone, on our own, it's easy to, not easy, but it's possible to practice, like practice, but I think much of the teaching disappears from the sequence. How to... So, in the domestic context, It's much easier to put people into, like unfolding the layers of consciousness. You know the joke with a lot of people who say, because in the seminars very complex things are taught. which we then somehow tinker with.

[32:26]

So there are a lot of things that are stuck in there. You can practice the eight-line practice in this time, you can't write that down in your daily life, but some of these more complex things are difficult. And probably more from a monastic tradition and practised. Yes, thanks. Yes. And if we say here that we also work at the same time in different industrial areas, and that is actually the reason why we are artists in the history of music. And that is a contradiction to what is the society as a whole.

[33:30]

And that will be the result of our 20 years of experience. In our society, the reckoning part is one we should get the most focus on, because one is appreciated the most, because the other is reading and so on. not what the society wants us to be. And if we get the teaching here, that we are in the different layers, one to the fifth, and there are two or three layers in each world, then this is in contradiction to what the society intends us to be. So it must be some conflict in our normal life to not go in this direction of being in the other. Yes.

[34:35]

We also had the feeling that this kind of awakening, this way of being awakened isn't really to be awake, it is a kind of dreaming mostly. Because most of the time we are staying in our terms of how the world is and how the world continues and everything. And this itself is not really the state of being awake. It is a state of dreaming. Yeah. Deutsch? Yes, we have also come to the conclusion that this state, as we stand here in the middle, the state of being awake, is actually not the state of being awake, because we always have to dream in our world, as the world is, we dream, we dream that we are poor, we dream that we are rich, that we have problems, but that is not the state of being awake.

[35:39]

I have a very good question in the book. For me it would be, if I have to work and I have to be very concentrated in the thinking level, how am I able to let go of the doubtfulness and be able to enter the stream of different levels of consciousness? So the practical question for me is, if I work and try to be in the thoughts to concentrate and to finish something, how can I get out of it? How can I let go of it and come back to a different level, a little bigger? Yeah. I have a question. What is a waking mind?

[36:47]

I mean, I have difficulty with all of these. Waking mind. Waking mind. What does it mean? It's a new mind which is kept reinforced. You mean waking mind, the one right in the middle? Yeah. Of the group, yeah. You want to say it in Deutsch? Well, since that's such a specific question, waking mind is just the mind we're using right now to talk. Or the mind, when you first wake up, somebody says, are you awake yet? And you say, yeah, you're not quite, but then you're awake. Or the mind, when you first wake up, somebody says, are you awake yet? Or it's closely associated with, though not exactly the same as consciousness.

[37:55]

If someone's been in a coma, we might say, is she conscious yet? Meaning, can she interact? Is she noticing things? That's waking mind. It's the mind we can notice most easily. And in a way we can say this koan is about how we notice that more than just waking minds going on. We also talked about the last half year of teaching. And for me, it was the most important thing that came up was planting the seeds in everyday's life and practice.

[39:11]

As you mentioned on one of your, I've heard it on the cassette, that going to a door and using that leg that is nearer to the pivot point The hinge. The hinge of the door. And I tried to do this the last six months. I think twice a week I managed to take it off. But that was very fascinating because, especially with today's teaching of these three layers, that are not collapsing in awakening, but are living parallel, along. And we, and I let live, let them live, and I give me the opportunity and the allowance that on these three layers, there is a process of teaching and learning going on, besides the thing that I've already arrived.

[40:19]

And the third thing was that especially these three things are teaching a lot of the question of the balance between teaching authority and my teaching authority. That's a kind of paradox. It's an ongoing paradox. How much responsibility of teaching am I handing over to you? How much am I handing to me and making my experience not only weighty, for somebody else. Good. Deutsch, is it? Yes. In the last, so we have also, the last year, so the last half of the year, from Hiller's, during the teaching, I looked and I found out for myself that the idea of planting these seeds in everyday life, from the practice, for example, as simple things as going through a door, And one goes to train the attention with the foot through the door that is next to the door.

[41:33]

That if you try that in everyday life, that, I mean, I've been thinking about it at least twice a few weeks, just to think that I'm doing it. But that these things are still effective in everyday life. The second is this idea that there are these three levels of being awake, dreaming and sleeping without a dream and that they do not collapse into being awake, but rather can live next to each other and can experience next to each other independent life processes and learning processes. And the third is that that these three quotes actually have a lot to do with the balance between the authority of the teacher and my own teaching authority. And how do I keep that in balance? How much response to the teacher, to the eternal teacher? How much do I assume that I myself teach myself and that I myself have my own experience?

[42:36]

Someone else? Yeah. Well, let me see if someone else is. You're very talkative today. And you even forgot one of the mines and you're still here. Anyone else? We can continue, of course, later. Yes, you want... I just wanted to say we had a short discussion too where I'm personally interested in about the difference between the states of mind you were explaining and being psychotic. Psychotic. Psychotic. If you're practicing, it's usually not a problem.

[44:00]

You have to... But if you cannot stabilize yourself in your body and move freely back and forth between the consciousness, you have to kind of stabilize yourself in the waking consciousness. And perhaps we can talk about that a little more tomorrow. Let me say... It's quite difficult. I'll be back in six weeks or so, but this is the last koan for this period of time, the last seminar in this period of time. So it has a kind of ending feeling. And it

[45:01]

This koan and the other koans I've referred to about Deshan are considered the highest, most difficult koans to understand. So I've been beating my brains out trying to figure out how can we talk about this? But actually it may be a good koan for us for this last meeting for a while. And I'll just try to give you my feeling of it. Because actually now we're in the process of this koan, so we have to stay with the process, at least to some extent. Now as you've noticed, and you've said just now, it's quite difficult to maintain the mind of practice and the mind from being in a seminar, in a session, and our daily life.

[46:27]

And not just our daily life, but our social mind and our practice mind. There's a different energy there. And our work mind and practice mind and so forth. Now, why are we doing this, as Alexandra brought up, is, I mean, as you imply, it's really, as I've said before, a search for ultimate friendship. And looking at the history of, and we can also ask, why are we talking about awareness and consciousness and all that stuff?

[47:45]

I mean, Buddhism, as I quoted Heidegger, who said, If you want to do that, that will loosen this up a lot. If you want to live in a cave in an isolated way for years, that also loosens things up a lot. And so you can see why Zazen is considered the easy way. Because if you have the patience to begin to feel Zazen moving in between dreaming and waking.

[48:51]

And you have sufficient vision just to do it four to seven times a week. It begins to work on you just through the doing of it. But you have to have certain views, certain attitudes that allow it to work. It won't work just automatically. So what you begin to have basically is something like this. You have what we'll call ND, non-dreaming consciousness. Or a kind of darkness. And then you have zazen awareness. And then you have dreaming.

[50:05]

And then you have zazen awareness. Then you have waking. And then you have zazen awareness. And then you have dreaming and zazen awareness. And then you have non-dreaming kind of darkness. And they all work simultaneously. And instead of collapsing this way, all of this starts opening up this way. And that makes a very different kind of human being. So it's taken kind of for granted in the practicing of a koan. And that creates a new human being, and all this is now in the practice of koans, so to speak, predetermined.

[51:06]

That you reach a point where you can read the koan with your waking mind. You dream the koan, as Ulrike in a sense was doing. and you zazen the koan, you read the koan and you zazen, and it begins to work in this darkness. And if you do zazen, you're doing zazen regularly, you begin to be able to let the koan douse you through your dreaming and through your zazen. Now it's important to keep these separate, not collapse them all into a waking mind.

[52:19]

For example, what happens from my experience is, when I take a walk, And it can be that I see a tree changing or something else. Would that be that this dreaming collapses into waking consciousness? No, probably... Do you want to say that, Jeremy? I would say that you're beginning to have the presence of dreaming consciousness in your daily consciousness. Now, Lungya and Deshan are in Shido's lineage.

[53:32]

And Shido is the sixth patriarch's disciple. And he's famous for writing a poem called The Merging of Difference and Unity. And he says in it, although there is darkness in light, do not see it as darkness. Although there's light in darkness, do not see it as light. Now this is rather different from our tendency to take for granted that bringing everything into consciousness, discussing it or being aware of it is good.

[54:55]

And maybe if you're functioning here, If things get out of whack, you have to do something like that because you're in a situation where there's a lot of tension. I couldn't see where you were pointing. If you're in this area without this, things get out of whack because there's a lot of tension. There's no space between and everything's tending into waking consciousness. And you have to use waking consciousness to keep sorting things out. You can't leave yourself alone as much. So this consciousness begins with the mind of the great sage of India, is intimately communicated between East and West.

[56:05]

People's faculties may be keen or dull, But there is no southern or northern patriarchs. The source shines in the light. The streams flow in the darkness. And this is, that kind of understanding is based on this happening through practice. So I think that's enough for a while.

[57:06]

Let's take a break. I'd like to just briefly tell this little story I read from the River Sutra. Sure. Maybe you can bring the book with you, maybe we can read it in advance. Does anyone have that at home? Because I often asked myself, where can I really find these differences between these consciousnesses in a sutra or something like that? Where can I really have it black and white in front of me?

[58:07]

And then this story touched me so much, how these ascetics sing the Aum and know when they open their lips, they are in the awake consciousness, when they let the air flow out in the dream consciousness and when they close their lips again in this Okay, so 20 minutes or so, 30 minutes? 20 minutes, we'll say. So what I did here is This is to make clear that this is a kind of waking mind, we call, and this is sleeping in zazen.

[59:26]

But when it's here, it's not exactly dreaming. Sometimes it's daydreaming. It's up here. At this level, in that above waking, it's daydreaming. I don't have to translate this. But it's also not just daydreaming, it's a kind of imaginal consciousness that's going on. In a very simple... Well, let me... I'll come back. In a very simple sense, when you're driving a car, for example, There's always the possibility of having an accident. And all those possibilities create little seeds in us. And I think that's the main reason so many movies have cars rolling over and crashing and blowing up, etc., is because those seeds of possibilities when you drive are always there.

[60:49]

So it's not just that these movies allow us to express our violence. They allow us to also give expression to something that's happening all the time when we drive. That could have been an accident. That could have been an accident. In the movies, it happens. So there's a, so that if you drive a lot, as almost everyone does, there's this seed level of accidents that's present. And the movies know that if you want to glue an ordinary film together, have a lot of car chases, roll them over a few times, a couple of explosions, and you have a movie. But What can we learn from that?

[62:22]

Is that if you practice zazen or you're practicing mindfulness, you're creating another kind of seed all the time. So there's a kind of, also there's a kind of imaginary landscape going on all the time. That's a, the landscape as it talks to us. Don't know if I'm making any sense. So this awareness that we color sort of green actually pervades this whole thing and gets intenser at some places than others.

[63:32]

But there's a whole sort of ring of awareness that curls in all of this. And it has different densities. Sometimes it's thin, sometimes it's denser, et cetera. This morning I had to, I get up, I don't know what, about 5.30 or so, decided to zazen. And I looked around and I knew there was a Zafu that I'd seen the night before, I think your Zafu. So I picked up the Zafu and there was a couple of little cushions beside it. And you know, I don't like little support cushions much. They don't work under my cushion.

[64:40]

They don't work under my ankle. But I found myself picking up the support cushion. And then I wandered around. I said, what? I know enough now if my body does something to let my body do it. So I wandered around and said, where am I going to sit? And then I found the only place I could sit that worked, that was on the edge of the mattress with a little cushion, and the cushion was actually necessary for the only place I could find in the several rooms that I could sit. I'm completely convinced I knew that all the night before when I went to sleep. The information was in my body and it picked up both cushions and knew exactly where to go, where I could find a good place to sit. So that's a kind of not daily consciousness that's functioning, that's not in your waking mind, that you let happen.

[66:04]

Now some of you had some questions, didn't you? I think I didn't understand the question correctly. In the Indian philosophy our ordinary daily mind consciousness is called dreaming consciousness, maya.

[67:11]

An example you used is that describing this dreaming consciousness that doesn't refer to this maya, this ordinary consciousness that is considered dreaming, or does it transcend that? Well, if I understand, yes. Yes. The top, at the bottom, I call it non-dreaming sleep. And in the top, we don't have language for it, but I call it non-conceptual consciousness. It's the same kind of character. You can almost imagine it as a circle going all the way around. And the next is awareness and zazen, zazen and awareness. And since you're not actually sitting at the upper point, I put awareness and then zazen in parentheses. Now it says in this Then the next one in the middle is below awareness, zazen, is imaginal consciousness and it correlates to dreaming sleep below.

[68:51]

And the middle is of course waking. What I'm saying here is that if you do zazen and mindfulness practices, Well, let's put it this way. Some people say that whales are always awake. I don't know if it's true. I'm not a whale. But it's definitely not what we human beings are. And if we were always awake, we wouldn't be human beings. The nature of our way of being is that we have a layered consciousness. And the emphasis in Buddhism is not to collapse those layers into awakeness.

[70:05]

But find a way to articulate each layer Let each one be separate and let them then merge and join in various combinations on their own. That image is behind all of Buddhist practice. In this poem again it says, for example, Grasping things is basically delusion.

[71:11]

Even merging with emptiness is still not enlightenment. Because you don't want to emphasize just merging. So it says, each sense and every field interact. So this already means that you have practiced enough that you can separate your various vijnanas, your sense fields. Each sense field and every field interact and do not interact. And again, so you have to separate them and allow them to be separate and not interact. When interacting, they also merge. Otherwise, they remain in their own states. Does that make any sense? So this is a kind of prescription for how to open yourself up and to leave yourself alone.

[72:35]

Yeah. I would like to ask you this. What is how to separate the vijnanas? Is it that I realized that this, what we experience as a unity of reality actually consists of different sense fields, and that you feel, aha, I'm seeing, and this is snarling, and this, that you realize how those different components make up the whole. Is that, Yeah, I mean, if you want to practice, why don't you say it in German? Well, simply with the help of Zazen practice and mindfulness practice,

[73:39]

Without both zazen and mindfulness practice and a certain degree of mental and physical stabilization, you couldn't do this, but with that kind of stabilization, you can separate each sense and just practice with it for a whole part of a day or an hour in a park, on a walk or something. Do 20 minutes just with your ears And then do 20 minutes just with your mouth And that's one of the most interesting ones To walk along and have all of your senses in your mouth and tasting, it's quite interesting.

[75:06]

You will begin to find how the tongue is a real powerful organ. And whether your mouth is wet or dry or whatever has a lot to do with your overall state of mind. And why we talk about he or she has good taste or it's a matter of taste. It really does have something to do with the tongue. So this is all pretty simple. This is kind of Buddhist advanced kindergarten. And you have to be a little bit like a kid and be just willing to do this. This poem is a great treasure I'm finding here, it says. The four elements return to their own natures like a baby talking to its mother.

[76:20]

And when you chant it, it actually says Baba Wawa Uku Muku. It doesn't say like a baby talking to his mother. Suddenly it just says Baba Wawa Uku Muku. You don't have to translate that. That's how Chinese babies. I always, that's my favorite line in the poem. Yeah. I find little pictures of people at our planet. It's sort of a self-description, different kinds of self-description, and also of control. It's modes of control.

[77:21]

And the question would be, if I change from everything collapsing to waking to the other one, I have to also change the point of residing. Because if I'm always trying to come back to waking, and to control everything through waking. And I have to make the shift. I think it's kind of difficult. Because you also have to find another point to decide. True. Chairman, please, . This one voice is incorporated into the waking, and this other voice is awakened. These are self-descriptions, things, ways of experiencing oneself, and at the same time ways of control. Because with some you try to control what happens in the waking, through the waking. And the question, if you go from one way to the other, is also to find another point where you can rest.

[78:25]

To residing? Where you reside, yeah. Christiana, is this all the paper you got or did you get two rolls? Okay, I'm using it up at a fast rate. Yeah, I already thought of that. Well, in our summer practice period, we're doing here. In our summer practice period, we're doing here. I was waiting sometimes for a whole sentence. I need you so much, I don't lean. We're actually working with certain themes that have come up in the different seminars in different ways, but very similar. The basic act of perception, as described in an earlier koan, is seeing, stopping,

[79:39]

Seeing, anhalten. Letting be. Sein, lassen. And extinction or discontinuity. Auslöschen oder Diskontinuität. But you can't stop, see and stop, unless you've joined mind and body and you have a certain stability. If you're only in waking, whatever it is, and that waking is determined by identifying yourself through thinking, who I am at a certain point in comparison to others, You really have a hard time letting this happen.

[81:08]

And there's a tendency to everything be drawn into waking, upsetting it and disturbing it and balancing it and so forth. Let's respond to what you said. So this point here means you're able to see something, to see with your body and your whole being. And that seeing itself is a moment of stopping. And that moment of stopping can't be experienced unless it's partially physical. So I'm now responding actually to your earlier question. That each moment is a precise physical act. that every moment is a precise, physical act.

[82:18]

And with being, I mean that a self, or better expressed, a self-organizing process begins. You let it happen and you let go of it. And that letting going of it is technically, in terms of physics, the experience of the discontinuity of time, moment after moment. Things appear, can't be reversed. One of the meanings of emptiness is just to let it go. You let it reappear, and then they're seeing, stopping, letting it be. And it all happens like that. And you could say this is a technical definition of dharmas at an experiential level.

[83:22]

And it's not so hard. I mean, this is pretty advanced Buddhism for us kindergarten guys. But it's really not so difficult. If you know about it and practice a little bit, you begin to find out that's how you do things anyway. But it's really not so difficult. You just have to practice it and you know something about it and you experience it anyway. Yes. If after the stoning the self-organizing process starts, then is the possibility of I, [...] Me, I. It could be something like I in this, if it's a self-organizing process, this autism.

[84:36]

Do you want to say it in German? Well, I generally use the word own organizing instead of self-organizing. So we take out the sense of self and I. Here I would say various experiences of I are. This is the usual experience of I. Then you have this experience of I. See, the I is disappearing. Then you have this experience of I, maybe. And then this, then... So at this level, there's no own organizing process going on, not even self-organizing.

[85:55]

There's fear, nervousness, and a lot of adjustment. Sleeping, having a few beers, etc. Here you can relax a little more. Somewhere down here, probably here, the field itself allows the own organizing. Now, you can call the field itself a kind of identity, and it is. But it's more like a cohesion rather than an act of substantiation.

[86:57]

And it is, we call it, something close to Buddha nature instead of your nature. Does that make sense? I mean, am I talking nonsense? Why do you say it's only close to Buddha nature? Now you're all at once. This is... Does that look like it's close to anything? If I say it's Buddha nature, don't you think I've made a mistake? Yeah. And you want to say that in Deutsch? And trying to do it is itself exploring and discovering that stability.

[88:00]

And it's also testing that ability. If you can't do it at all, you realize you don't have enough of a field. You have too much of a big eye. And I don't mean that big eye in some negative sense like you're selfish, self-centered person. I just mean that your identity location is primarily in thinking and your personal story. And I don't mean negative, in the sense that you are an egoistic person or something like that, but that your identity is mainly localized in this ordinary thinking. Yes. I find it very interesting right now, because I realize... That this physical preparation in the different conditions that I have is different.

[89:07]

So in my normal subconsciousness it is very difficult for me to see and to stop. But in satsang it is perhaps easier for me and even in dreams, in my dreams it is sometimes so that I think of terrible dreams, so I feel a very deep trust. And I also have the feeling that I find it interesting when I see this, see him stopping to realize that Certain faith, yeah. Yeah.

[90:26]

You said that in Deutsch already? Yeah. Well, one of the things that happens here is that as you begin to open up our already layered consciousness. And create the situation where you can really let the layers be. They don't have to be collapsed into waking consciousness or you don't have to give a primacy to a waking consciousness. you also create the situation where they can merge. And the result of that is you begin to find a similar experience in all of them. And I don't know how to say this, but your dreams no longer become dreams.

[91:46]

But that's not quite right, but they're dreams, but they don't feel like they're different from waking consciousness. And waking consciousness doesn't feel different from dreaming. It feels like a different emphasis, but it feels like the same stuff. So you don't really have... bad dreams anymore that seem like they came from outside. It just seems like how the seeds, how the seeds that cause consciousness to flower occur, starts occurring differently. I'm saying too much already, but that's enough.

[92:58]

Yes. Yes. Yes. Do you want to say that in Deutsch? Castaneda has a new book out called The Art of Dreaming, I think. Which is, at a practice level, is very similar to Buddhism. But I don't know anything in Buddhism which says you actually go into another totally different world and you visit, the dream is actually another world entering, at least not the way he puts it.

[94:27]

But what he states is quite remarkable, I think. And there's been a lot of work done on lucid dreaming and starting out in Stanford, I believe. And the guy who initiated it originally, I believe, in contemporary psychology, started out as a kind of smart, psychedelic-taking kid in the Haight-Ashbury. I don't know if he was a teenager or not, but he was young. And then he went, I think he became a, started to become a physicist and got interested in dreaming. And I think he's also to some extent meditates. But you're right, it doesn't depend on meditation.

[95:44]

There's various ways you can study these things. Zazen is to bring these things, to become more awake in our various layered consciousnesses.

[96:04]

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