Good morning. Nice to see you all on such a beautiful spring Chicago day. I want to continue talking this morning about the bodhisattva precepts. I spoke about them last weekend, Sunday and Monday, and talked about the precept about not killing or supporting life and the precept about not taking what's not given. or generosity. Today I want to talk about precepts about right speech, or a couple of them. So one of the contexts for talking about this now is that we are having a practice commitment period. We're the last couple of weeks of that. A number of you here are participating in that. and studying the precepts from my teacher of Anderson's book, Being Upright, which I will refer to.

[01:07]

Also, next month in June, we're having a lay ordination precept ceremony, and in the fall, a priest ordination precept ceremony. helpful to talk about these, and I want to give some context again. So our practice, basic practice, is just sitting. What we just did, just sitting, facing the wall, facing ourselves. Being upright, as Riv says, being present in this body and mind, beyond and underneath and around, our ideas of ourself and the world, just seeing how it is to be here in this body and mind. And as we do that, we start to get glimpses, and sometimes we don't realize it, sometimes we do, of this deep intimacy.

[02:12]

with ourself and our life, this possibility of wholeness and the reality of our interconnectedness with everything, with the whole world, with the universe, with all the people and beings you have been present with in your life this week and this lifetime. So this practice is wonderful, this zazen, this just sitting. not trying to get anything, not trying to get rid of anything, just seeing what it's like to be here. But we also emphasize that it's not enough to have some realization of that, that we have some responsibility and some ability to respond and express all of this in our own lives as they are. And that's where the precepts come in there, guidance to how to do that. And focus on some of the difficult aspects of our lives and of our world.

[03:22]

And how do we present, represent, express, find support and guidance from this experience of intimacy with wholeness. So, specifically I want to talk today about precepts having to do with right speech. Not speaking falsehoods or telling the truth and also not discussing the faults of others. So, last week when we had a day-long sitting and I talked about this last Sunday and talked with many people and more than a few, a number of people were particularly working with not speaking of the faults of others. It's a very important precept. And I want to say something about it today, but first just to give context is that

[04:27]

All of this comes from whether or not you do some formal precept ceremony. It's not the point. All of us, just by showing up here, are in some ways taking refuge in Buddha, returning home to Buddha, turning towards awakening, awareness, kindness. What is it? How is it to be the Buddha sitting on your Kushner chair right now? How do we express that? How do we realize that? How do we enjoy that? So this taking refuge, this returning home to Buddha, I'll repeat again a little bit of what Rev says about that. To take refuge in Buddha means to take refuge in what you really are. What you really are is already attained, always, every moment. What you really are is Buddha.

[05:30]

You don't have to work at what you are. Part of what you are is what you think you are, but what you think you are is not all of what you are. It is just an aspect of what you are. Being Buddha means being unattached to your thoughts about what you are. If you think you are a worthy person, or if you think you are an unworthy person, not grasping hold of those thoughts is Buddha. In fact, being a person who has such thoughts is a necessary condition for realizing Buddha. When you take refuge in Buddha, when you go back to being fully yourself, you begin to see and taste and feel how you are connected to and depend on everybody, and how everybody depends on you. In other words, the first refuge, taking refuge in Buddha, really contains all the others. So all the other precepts, taking refuge in Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, fulfilling all rules and laws of right conduct, fulfilling wholesome dharmas, benefiting all beings, and then the ten grave precepts that we're talking about.

[06:51]

All of these are the unfolding of turning home, returning home, again and again. Buddha. So, one of the aspects of the Eightfold Path, which Buddha also speaks of, is right speech. So that's what I want to try to speak about today. And with all of the Eightfold Path, right speech, right effort, right livelihood, It's not that these are right as opposed to wrong. So, Reb points out. Anyway, the original Pali that's used for right speech, right effort, right livelihood, for the word right is sama, and it doesn't mean right as opposed to wrong.

[08:02]

It means complete, comprehensive. You could say upright. So how do we speak wholesomely? In a way that helps us to express Buddha as we are in our world. And again, about this word right, these practices are not practices that we get perfectly. On some level, these ten precepts are there because they're areas where we have difficulty. It's not about being perfect at this. In fact, it's really important that we make mistakes. But when we are settled and intimate with ourselves in our life, we can see those and study those and work at it.

[09:07]

And so it's not about being perfect. This practice is practice, again, for human beings, not for perfect, you know, sacred Buddhas up in the sky. This practice is about how we find our way to be present and down to earth. So in that context, we have this precept of not speaking falsehoods, of speaking truth. Founder of Soto Zen in 13th century Japan, Ehe Dogen says, the Dharma wheel has all inclusively turned. There's no excess, there's no deficiency. One complete moistening of sweet dew bears fruit as actuality and truth. The truth is here. How do we speak the truth instead of speaking falsely?

[10:07]

So again, each of these is subtle. In each of these, each of these is a kind of study, a kind of examination, a process of developing intimacy. What does it mean not to lie? What does it mean to speak truth? So, many things to say about this. Part of it is just not to deceive. Part of it is to not deceive ourselves. to see the ways in which we hold back from the truth. So freedom from selfishness, Reb says, does not come from pretending that we are not selfish. It is realized through the complete study of our selfishness.

[11:11]

Carelessness and self-deception smooth the path of deceiving others, and we can lie more convincingly if we are lying to ourselves. So to speak truth, we need to have some wholesome self-respect, and actually respect for particular others, respect for all beings. How do we find respect for ourselves? Part of that is to study how we may not feel that, how we may feel unworthy, or we may feel some fault or blame in ourselves or in some others. How do we study that? How do we see that? How do we be patient with that? So how do we not deceive? And, you know, Reb talks about this in a subtle way. He says there are wrong times to tell the truth. How do we speak truth to others willfully?

[12:18]

This is very challenging. This is very much related to not speaking of the faults of others, so it's hard to talk about them separately, actually. But how do we see the truth of ourselves and others and speak that truth in a way that's helpful? Buddha said that you should not speak the truth when it's harmful, but we need to distinguish between what is harmful and what is hurtful. So sometimes we may need to say something that hurts ourselves or others. But how do we say it in a way that it doesn't cause harm? So this has to do with the all-important practice of patience. So I feel like patience and respect underlie all of these precepts. Rep says, choose a time when you feel grounded and alert, when you're not afraid of alienating the other person, when you feel the other person can receive what you have to say, even if it's painful to hear. How do we be patient with ourselves and each other to speak in a way where we speak our truth?

[13:28]

And this includes, in our world, speaking our truth to power, speaking our truth when it's not convenient, speaking our truth when it's It's difficult when maybe we are not comfortable speaking the truth. And yet, we need to pay attention to how to do this in a way that's helpful, that's not harmful. So, part of speaking the truth, an important part of speaking the truth, is to be willing to speak your truth, but also to be aware of your own limitations. the limitations of your view. Whatever truth you see, great. Sometimes you need to say it, but whatever truth you see is only a part of the truth. This is always true. We don't have unlimited perceptions.

[14:29]

We don't have unlimited intellectual or spiritual faculties. I can't see the wall behind me. I'm looking this way, so I can't see if Nathan is making faces next to me. We have some limitation in our perceptions. I can't see everything. And yet, what is it we see? How do we speak with each other together in a helpful way about how we see our truths? So this idea of truth we can hold on to and it can become rigid and self-righteous. Oh, this is the truth. You're an idiot. You should see it this way. We do that. We get very attached to our truths. This is the way it is. Well, OK. To speak truth in a helpful way is to be aware and to say, well, this is how I see it. And what about you?

[15:31]

How do we speak together where we share our sense? So not, you know, the precepts are presented usually in our ceremonies and in the original texts in negative ways, not lying, not speaking falsely. Not speaking falsely means to speak with respect, to speak knowing that there's more to see about whatever we're talking about. And yet, sometimes we need to say something. And then how do we see the skillful, you know, underneath that? How do we see the skillful way to say something that actually will make a difference, that actually will be helpful? So I'm going to say a little more about this, but I also want to hear This other precept, again, these three, not speaking falsehood, not discussing faults of others, and not praising self at the expense of others, are related as the precepts about right speech.

[16:41]

But I want to focus a little bit on not speaking of faults of others. All of us have more or less this capacity for critical mind and being critics and seeing some, well, maybe we feel it most when somebody in our life, a co-worker, a family member, a friend, says something that hurts us or that we feel. threatened by, or, you know, there's all of those possibilities. And there's this response to be, first of all, within ourselves, and then we may speak about it to someone else, about what an idiot that person is, or whatever name you want to fill in there. We do name calling. We do find faults in others. We do, so to me, this precept has a lot to do with this word fault. I think sometimes it's appropriate and we need to speak with others.

[17:50]

Sometimes, you know, we're on call and we need to go and answer the cell phone. We need to speak sometimes. But how do we see it as wholesome and supportive and helpful rather than fault-finding. So this critical mind, you know, Zazen and letting go of thoughts doesn't mean giving up our critical faculties. You don't have to be stupid to do Zazen. Sometimes it helps, but you don't have to give up your critical faculties. There are many very smart people in this room. It's great. We do need, in some situations, discriminating, discerning mind. So to me, this precept, at least the way I'm thinking about it this week, this precept has to do with the word fault, not speaking of the faults of others. It has to do with not blaming. You know, we can speak about some situation and instead of saying, oh, that guy is an idiot or that guy is greedy or whatever,

[19:00]

we can say, we can look at the situation, what's happening, and try to look at it and see, well, how can we help it? How can we help in that situation? Or if somebody, if a friend is doing some harmful behavior to themselves or others, how do we help them to shift and change? How do we help them to see? So again, this practice of patience underlies all of this. And you can try it, but often it doesn't work to just go up to somebody and say, hey, you're being a jerk, stop it. You have to actually look at what's going on? What is it that's going on for them? What is the pain or fear or sadness or whatever that's leading them to act in what we perceive as a harmful way? How do we listen to their truth and speak in a way that they can actually hear, so they can take on for themselves, from their own point of view, how to shift possibly.

[20:07]

Sometimes they don't want to. Well, fine, okay. How do we support each other? This is what Sangha is about. The Sangha is a kind of a laboratory, a kind of a container, an opportunity, a kind of counterculture to the world out there where we can speak, where we can learn to speak with each other in ways that are helpful. And it's not easy. How do we see problems in speech or body speech or mind of ourselves and others, and how do we talk about it together in a way that's helpful rather than blaming and fault-finding and personal? This is, again, really challenging. Our critical mind does find faults.

[21:08]

We do, you know, we can go to name calling or blaming or, you know, or actually seeing patterns of activity and ways of being in others. that we don't like or that we see causing harms to other people. This is possible. This applies on all kinds of levels. In our interpersonal reactions, certainly. In our seeing the different parts of ourselves as we're sitting on our cushions, too. How do we not blame those parts of ourselves we don't like? How do we hear others commenting on things about us? in a way that we can, for ourselves, say, oh, okay. Or how do we, you know, it's very possible to feel unworthy in some way or to feel self-deprecating in some way. I think many of us have aspects of that. How do we see that in a way that helps us to actually work with that situation?

[22:08]

And then it also applies in the society. As many of you know, I do sometimes here talk about the problems in our world and the problems of the environment and pollution and war and so forth. But I'm trying to speak about it in terms of the systems that are happening, not in terms of this particular person is a greedy murderer or whatever, whatever name I want to give them. The problem is not about individual people. It's not about persons. It's about ways in which we get caught in greed, hate, and delusion. And we all have some part in that. We all have our own human endowment of grasping, of aversion, of confusion. How do we respond to ourselves and to others in a way that is positive and supportive? This is what this precept is about. How do we help others to see? How do we practice with no-fault assurance?

[23:13]

Helping ourselves, assuring each other that it's okay to be human. and ourselves. When we see shortcomings or unskillful ways of behaving in ourselves or others, how do we look at that? How can we be willing to just be present with that, pay attention, not jump to some blame or fault? So how do we help others to see when we feel like we, you know, when we feel some responsibility to give feedback. Well, again, it's this practice of patience, this practice of watching, becoming intimate with ourselves, with the patterns of the other, trying to find a way to help them to see in a way that might shift the situation. Things change. This is basic to Buddhism. There is transformation when we pay attention.

[24:16]

when we're willing to be intimate with ourselves and each other. So this is not about telling other people what to do. All of us may have some pattern or tendency to want to control things. We can't do that. Nothing happens according to your ideas of how it should be. It's okay to have ideas about how things should be. It's okay to have, to imagine different possibilities. That could be helpful. But nothing ever happens according to our expectations, much less how we think we want others or ourselves to be. So, Dogen says about this not discussing faults of others, Within Buddhadharma, all are the same path, the same dharma, the same realization, the same practice.

[25:19]

So, the faults of others will not be discussed and confusing speech will not occur. He says the faults of others will not be discussed. I would say we don't discuss them as faults. How can we be very respectful to someone else and talk about something that we see? And maybe we don't understand how they're acting. This is very subtle. But again, we're all on the same path. So a little bit from what Herb says about this particular precept to share. Again, that we speak, well part of, for all of these precepts of right speech, part of the suggested practice is kind speech.

[26:26]

It's another way to talk about speaking respectfully. How do we speak kindly? with respect, with appreciation, not wanting to just make points. The next precept is not praising self at the expense of others. We can get into criticizing others as a way of saying, unlike me, this person is doing such and such. We can praise ourselves. We hold on to our self-opinion. How can we speak and speak truth to power and speak against injustice in a way that's not talking about particular people as evil ones or whatever? How do we speak together and listen to each other? So one aspect of this kind of speech is that, as Rabe says, an effective antidote to our tendency to speak of others' faults is the practice of praising and rejoicing in their virtues.

[27:35]

When we see some problem in what someone else is saying to us or doing with somebody else, can we also see the good points in that person? Can we praise for ourselves and in our speech, see the positive? This is part of speaking respectfully, without name-calling, without blaming, without fault-finding. How do we speak of the positive aspect? And then there's just listening to the other person's truth. So there's a story that Reb tells about this, which I wanted to share as a way of closing, and then I do want to hear your truths also. But Reb talks about a psychologist who he calls a bodhisattva, a psychologist named Milton Erickson. So we have a number of psychologists in the room. And it's been a while since I've studied the various modern schools of psychology.

[28:39]

And I don't know what you think about Milton Erickson. But anyway, he tells a story about him, that he went to visit a man in a state mental institution who had been diagnosed as a schizophrenic. This man claimed that he was Jesus. and he would not talk to anyone who did not in some way acknowledge him as Jesus. Therefore, no conversation was going on. He was isolated in his self-identification as Jesus. When Milton Erickson showed up, he introduced himself and said, I understand, sir, that you are a carpenter. The man said, that's right. Then Milton Erickson, we had calls from the Bodhisattva, said, would you please build me some bookshelves? And the man replied, fine, I will. He built the bookshelves, continued his conversation with Milton Erickson, and was shortly thereafter released from his delusion and the hospital.

[29:45]

So we may say, oh, that person is delusional, or that person is whatever fault we may find. How do we meet them on their own terms? How do we meet each other on our own terms? With each other? So, he quotes Gregory Bateson saying, in the case of schizophrenia, it takes two to make one. To make one. That is, at least two people living in different worlds who cannot communicate produces a schizophrenic. If someone says, I'm Jesus, and someone else says, no, you're not, then no conversation is possible. We have the condition for speaking of another's faults. I'm a doctor. He's a schizophrenic. We make it into two. We make a schizophrenic. And then it says, the Bodhisattva talks intimately with people who have shortcomings.

[30:48]

We all have shortcomings. Therefore, a healing conversation is possible. Both parties can become liberated from the separated world. So how do we talk together? This is what this precept is about. And it's difficult. And first, we have to talk with ourselves. We have to become friendly with our own shortcomings, the things we criticize in ourselves. We have to be willing to forgive ourselves for being human and forgive others for being human. How do we talk together without blame, without fault? This is telling the truth. And it's very challenging. And it's not something just by thinking about it or talking about it or reading another's book that suddenly, oh yeah, everything's going to be okay. We have deep-rooted patterns of fault-finding and blame. But how do we start to see that there's more of a possibility than that?

[31:54]

So all of these precepts are gnarly questions that we can ask ourselves as Buddhas. Each of these is a practice and a study that we need to become intimate with, and that we don't maybe ever completely We can become more and more skillful at them, perhaps, but the point is, of the precepts, is that they are reminders, so the people who take, do the formal ceremony of receiving name, dharma name and lineage and precepts are doing that because they need extra help in remembering these precepts. So they publicly say, okay, I'm going to try and live this way. And then, you know, it's not that they suddenly can perfectly perform them. In fact, we always have problems with these. So they're kind of studies of how do we express Zazen in our worlds.

[32:57]

And when we're working on them, it supports our Zazen. The more we're willing to be in the world without blame and fault finding, the more we can be present in our own upright body and mind as we breathe, head sit, and be upright. So, thank you all for being here and listening. Anybody have comments, responses, things to share about how we speak together? Please feel free. Yes, Will, hi. Mm-hmm.

[34:03]

Thank you. Thank you for sharing that dilemma. So I want to hear more, actually, but I'll just say, first, so Will's job is to, in some sense, find fault with others. But I think there's a way to do it that includes kind speech. It's not easy, but you're evaluating. So if there's somebody that needs to be fired, how do you do that in a kind way that's not stigmatizing and shaming them and blaming them, but just this isn't working here? Or when you, maybe there's a flip side of it. There's no precept about not praising others. I think it's encouraged to speak well of others, but to somehow not make it personal. This activity, this part of the process of this person's job is going very well. How do you make it not about, how do you evaluate without making it about some self who needs to get fired because they're terrible.

[35:26]

I don't know, Ed, what do you think, Will? Good. Well, that's it. Then you have a wonderful opportunity to practice this precept for all of us. Thank you. Yes, Jen.

[36:32]

The Milton Erickson story touches something that I've been thinking about. Because in being kind, in the way that he was with the schizophrenic, he was also being dishonest. Because he honestly did not believe, himself did not, Erickson did not believe that the man was Jesus. And I think, as a therapist, you're always trying to find a way to communicate. And what happens is that it becomes automatic to be dishonest when you think, oh, this idea is really crazy, you know, this really is delusion that I'm hearing, is to bring in an element of dishonesty. And that then carries over into life. And so the question is, when you go along with something, aren't you also lying?

[37:42]

You're giving the impression that I agree with you about that one. In fact, I don't. And sometimes I come back later to hit you. Yeah. Thank you for questioning this. Not speaking falsehood... Would you ask Nancy to speak more quietly? Not speaking falsehood. Telling truth is... is, as Rev says, it's not about saying the truth all the time. We have to look at the context. When is it harmful to speak the truth? So in that case, to say to this fellow, you're not Jesus, you're crazy, wouldn't be very helpful. So I don't have a good answer to this.

[38:47]

This is part of the, this is why in the Rinzai system, these 10 precepts are the highest form of koans. What is the truth in that situation? And your truth is, he's not Jesus. He's delusional. His truth is, he's a carpenter. How do we meet someone? How do we not hold on to some absolute idea of the truth? And your concern was about being dishonest, not, you know, speaking in a way that didn't feel honest to you. And I don't have, you know, I don't have the answer. I think you have to look at what's the way, so he, Milton Erickson didn't say, you know, to ask him for teachings from the Gospels, he said, oh, I hear you're a carpenter.

[39:48]

How do we speak skillfully? So this is difficult. What is the truth? Do we just say the truth to someone when it's going to be hurtful? If our truth is that whatever. How do we speak the truth? And the way you put it, I think, is helpful. How do we not be dishonest? So I'm interested in other. people's comments on Joan's question. We have other therapists in the room. First Deborah. I think that for me the issue with that is how does one, if I were face-to-face with him, meet him with respect? Yeah, yeah. And understand that there's suffering going on here. Right. And so then respond to him in a way that feels authentic to me. And yet can speak to his suffering, to his dilemma, answer what that would be, but how can I be, would I be aware and bridge that gap and feel his suffering without acknowledging, yes, I believe you're Jesus Christ, but still be able to reach him?

[41:01]

Yeah, so saying, I hear you're a carpenter is interesting, sort of, I don't know, anyway. What's it like to feel so isolated here and to not have others respond to you? never had to actually acknowledge that he was Jesus, but he was able to find that way to communicate with them, to find that truth that they both shared with respect, like you said, and that was maybe sort of like the pathway or the way to reach this man. So I'm not sure if he was being dishonest, but I think that's an interesting question, though. And underlying all of this is skillful means, that we don't necessarily have

[42:05]

So one right way to respond in every situation, even if we memorize the precepts or whatever, it's how do we meet this situation? I mean, you go ahead and lie. I mean, I think Erickson, it was deception, but it was too for a greater good, or whatever you want to call it, that you go ahead and, if it's from an area of compassion, you say you look good, or that they ask you, or you somehow comfort someone, even though you're deceitful, Well, what you're saying is congruent with the basic teaching of skillful means.

[43:27]

The primary text for that is the Lotus Sutra, and one of the main... There are a number of stories, but there's the story of the burning house. A man comes home and finds his kids playing in his house that's on fire. This is a kind of metaphor for the Buddha seeing the world and its suffering. In the story, the man tells the kids, first he tells them to get out of the house, and they don't want to. They're busy playing with their toys, and they don't see that the house is on fire. Finally, he says, I have these wonderful carts outside, these wonderful vehicles, and describes all these various things that would appeal to them most. some might like a BMW, some might like a Jaguar, some might like a Humvee, I don't know. He suggests that all of these are outside, come on out. And they get outside and find there's just this one vehicle, which includes all of them, and takes care of all of them, but he gets them out of the house. So in that story, this idea of skillful means in Buddhism, it's tricky because sometimes, are you being dishonest?

[44:32]

the main focus is how do you relieve suffering and help liberate people and get people out of the burning house. So, anyway, that's the classic Buddhist story about skillful means, but it's tricky. I think, for me, the complication is that it's the next step. If you're going to have ongoing communication with that person, If you've gotten them out of the house with a lie, are they ever going to believe you again, is one part of it. The other is in my interpersonal connections with people, not as a profession. I've learned to be so careful sometimes that they would get the impression that I'm agreeing with them, and then subsequently feel betrayed if I say something that indicates that I don't actually see it that way.

[45:33]

So it's just complicated. It's complicated. But the main point, the Lotus Sutra says, the single reason for Buddhists showing up in the world is to relieve suffering, to help beings awaken. So what is the truth of our idea of truth and our idea of dishonesty? We need to look at this. Yes, Dawn. From what I know, and I know this is just more getting into details, but I have relatives that are schizophrenic and I've also worked with schizophrenics. and that schizophrenia doesn't just go away with one little incident like this. And so to lead somebody out with a lie and then what? You're going to take them out into the world. So we don't know what really happened before. We don't really know what happened before.

[46:34]

I remember how he was being taken care of. So you may be leading him actually into a fire rather than leading him out of a fire. So he may not really have been suffering in his place. He might have been really been taken care of. Because most schizophrenics that I've worked with, by the time they get out of the house, they stop taking meds. Meds don't work. They're not feeling well. And so sometimes the best place for somebody, if they're not doing well and delusional, is in the place where they're being taken care of in a compassionate place. And so I'm not sure. And so I can feel myself. Because I'm very protective over that kind of a situation, and I would want a person to go in and be compassionate and kind towards a person, you know, and so I guess, you know, I don't think lying to a person, you know, is always, in that situation, is the right thing to do. Okay. So, thank you.

[47:35]

Yeah, I don't know the whole story in that case. We don't know the whole story. I was just mentioning a little bit of it. But how do we connect with people? and listen to their truths, I think is the point he's making. But yeah, I hear you. Other comments? Yes, Debra. The talking was not separate from what you were just talking about, but when you were trying to be truthful and honest and careful, where is the line between disappointing someone or making them feel hurt and harming them? That's fuzzy for me. I'm not sure. Sometimes it's hard to avoid disappointing someone emotionally. Yeah, I agree. What constitutes harm? Well, I think we can look to the precepts for some guidance in that, but sometimes we cause harm, even though the precepts are based on not harming, trying not to cause harm.

[48:51]

So our intention is important. I think patience, respect, sometimes we have to respond to something immediately, but if there's time to watch and pay attention, become intimate with the other person in their workings as well as our own, we have a better chance of being effective. So maybe one aspect of hurting is when we cut off If we can say something that may be hurtful, but still we're willing to be present with each other, the other person, and keep talking, and keep a process, then whatever hurt is happening may not become harmful. We can continue to work with this.

[49:55]

That might be one criteria, but they're not easy answers to this. But the guidance of the precepts is, how do we not speak of others as being faulty? How do we speak of others with respect and with each other? And yeah, the question you ask, sometimes we may feel hurt. Okay, fine. Harm comes when we break something or some possibility of respect or well-being is severed. So we have to not only respond, be patient and then try and respond, but then keep watching. Continue attention.

[50:56]

Be vigilant too. and see that our own point of view is just that. Any other comments, responses? Yes Titus. I keep thinking about, I studied once with this Guatemalan Mayan elder, and he was talking about how, he was sort of talking about the social structure of living in a village, in a community, and how he talked about the women gathering every day and gossiping while they did their work, but how that actually served this really important social function. And I don't know, I reflect on that sometimes not as a like encouragement to be a gossip or, you know, certainly, especially in a negative way, but somehow, the convivial, jovial, maybe, finding of faults with each other in a minor kind of way is somehow like a part of a social glue?

[52:11]

Well, I would say from the point of view of the precepts, the point is when we're talking about others with each other, that we do it with respect, not fault-finding. but actually, oh, how can we help the situation? To speak from the intention, so the Bodhisattva context doesn't mean that they couldn't be gathering together talking, but, oh, this person is acting this way, how do we, rather than fault-finding and blaming, how do we help the situation? So I think that's the direction of the precept. So thank you all for your considerations of this.

[52:53]

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